Should Mitt Romney Be Asked About The Mormon Church's Racist Past?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

FOR NEARLY 140 YEARS, Mormonism (the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints") has taught that the black people are "inferior" and are "cursed" by God. The Mormon leaders who have taught these things in the name of Christianity are revered as "prophets, seers and revelators" by their Church, and their plain words about these cruel, unscriptural teachings remain for the world to judge.

However, in June, 1978, Mormon leaders attempted to erase over a century of outside resentment with the announcement that "worthy" black persons could receive privileges and secret initiations which had always been denied them in Mormonism. This strange, unexpected turnabout came as Mormon leaders were planning to initiate their final drive to send their "missionaries" into the remaining lands of the world where Mormonism has been most resisted—particularly Africa.

Surely, this cannot be mere coincidence. Nevertheless, the firm Mormon teaching that a whole race of people are "cursed with a black skin" for sins committed by them before they were born remains to this very day, no announcement or "revelation" has removed it.

The following quotations, taken from authoritative doctrinal writings and speeches by Mormon Prophets (their supreme earthly leaders) and Apostles, should serve as a sobering warning of the true nature of Mormonism. It is a religion which curses an entire people one day, and offers them greater privileges" the next



"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the Children of men, that they may not call scripture!" Journal of Discourses, Volume 13, page 95.

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, sad, low in their habits, wild, ad seemingly without the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be and the Lord put a mark on him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then other curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they would be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree." Journal of Discourses, Volume 7, pages 290 291

"In our first settlement in Missouri, it was said by our enemies that we intended to tamper with the slaves, not that we had any idea of the kind, for such a thing never entered our minds. We knew that the children of Ham were to be the "servant of servants," and no power under heaven could hinder it, so long as the Lord would permit them to welter under the curse and those were known to be our religious views concerning them." Journal of Discourses, Volume 2, page 172.

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.

http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/africanamerican.htm

[slackmaster]

1. OH BOY! A religion bashing thread.

:popcorn:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. How Is It Religion Bashing?

Their own text is being quoted...

[slackmaster]

6. Same way a thread about the Roman Catholic Church becomes religion bashing

When all you wish to discuss is the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, or the Spanish Inquisition.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Did Those Occur In 1978?

eom

[slackmaster]

25. Goal post move

:argh:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. If You Can't Distinguish

If you can't distinguish between events that happened in our lifetime and events that belong to ancient history there's nothing I can possibly do to encourage you to do so...

[slackmaster]

54. I'll tell you something I can distinguish, DSB

A person's personal attitudes, philosophy, and beliefs vs. past official church doctrine over which he had no control.

If Romney himself is a racist, then he deserves to end up in a deeper circle of Hell than he will just for being a Republican. If the church into which he was born was racist when he was a young man, who cares?

;-)

[JanMichael]

79. Who cares? Free Will dictates that these people can leave this

cult.

He is old enough to have CHOSEN as an ADULT to stay in a church whose religious text specifies that people with dark skins have the mark of Cain.

Yes--this sure as hell needs to be addressed.

[slackmaster]

82. So, all Muslims are accountable for the anti-Jewish sentiments of some of them?

They have free will too.

But of course Islam prescribes the death penalty for anyone who leaves, at least according to some.

See how simple the issue isn't?

[JanMichael]

102. No silly because the Book of Mormon still has the mark of Cain...

...bullshit. They are a small cultish religion in this country and nutty as all get out. Racist and nutty. The garden of eden in Missouri?

As to the death penalty for leaving Mitt hasn't left nor has he ever been a Muslim.

Islam is not the issue nor is Zoroastrianism. Changing the issue is called what again in logic courses?

[slackmaster]

108. Changing the subject is called Red Herring

Which is the whole basis of this thread, actually.

Asking Romney about anything other than what HE believes isn't relevant to the upcoming election.

[Booster]

91. If you can find just one black man OR woman who has reached

any office or whatever in the Mormon church TODAY, then I might consider agreeing with you. The church is as racist and sexist today as they ever were. Women and blacks have always been second class in the Mormon church. Show me different.

[slackmaster]

107. While we're at it, let's look for a female Catholic priest or a Jewish Imam

:rofl:

[Booster]

109. Is there a Catholic or a Jewish man or woman running for President?

When they are running, we should ask the same questions of them. IMO, racism nor sexism should be built into any religion, especially when those religions claim to teach tolerance and understanding.

[slackmaster]

110. We did have a Catholic man run for President once

And a lot of people tried to make an issue, suggesting the Pope would be running the country.



The people who tried to attack him on religious grounds ended up only making themselves look like a bunch of bigots.

[saracat]

2. No contemporary references?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Is 1978 Current Enough?

Blacks couldn't be elders in the Mormon Church until 1978 and were prevented from taken part in their secret initiations.


And the Mormon Church didn't renounce their racist and exclusionary policies until they wanted to extend their ministry to Africa...

[Donnachaidh]

22. More importantly, what has the Mormon Church doen to change that attitude?

And has it been PUBLICLY done?

When a religion is teaching that another race is *inferior* then, yes, it should be brought up. Church teachings (ANY church) are the values that the members APPLY to their day to day lives. I wouldn't vote to put a Klan member in the White House, because I know what their values are by their history.

I'd like to see if something substantive has been done to drop this vicious labeling, and who better to answer the question than the Mormon asking for the keys to the White House?

A REAL answer - not a refusal to talk about it. To use an old expression - "In for a penny, in for a pound" Mr. Romney. Explain to the african american community what is NOW being taught about that supposedly *inferior* race.

Romney better not stay silent if this is brought up. That would be much, MUCH worse.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. I Am Not Reviving Ancient Text...

The Mormon Church only abandoned their racist policies in 1978 when they wanted to extend their ministry to Africa...

They have refused to apologize for their racist past...

Even the Pope has apologized for racism in the Catholic Church and their indifferent attitude toward Jews who suffered in the Holocaust...


Also, the Southern Baptist Convention apologized for their role in slavery...

[JVS]

43. "the Pope has apologized for racism in the Catholic Church "

Was that before or after the man in your avatar had died. If after, should people have grilled RFK and his brother JFK about the Church's position on this issue?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. JFK Was Certainly Asked About His Faith

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkhoustonministers.html

[JVS]

55. But was he asked about the darkest most vile misdeeds of his church body?

And you really didn't answer my question. I know he was asked about his religion, but was he called to answer for the deeds of his church, and would that have been proper?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. If The Misdeeds Were Recent Why Not...

eom

[slackmaster]

44. It took the Catholics over 300 years to apologize for how they treated Galileo

Give the Mormons a fair chance.

[Donnachaidh]

75. umm, I didn't say you were reviving ancient texts

I think your reply was for someone else?

[BlooInBloo]

4. He certainly hopes so. How else do you think he'll get the south & Idaho?

[Freddie Stubbs]

5. He should be asked what, if anything he did to oppose or support change in

his church.

[wuushew]

7. I thought we were over this in 1960?

Mitt sucks for reasons other than his religion.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Too Bad The Mormons Didn't Renounce Their Racist Past Until 1978

And they still refuse to apologize for it...

[wuushew]

13. And the Catholic church has far more resent pedophilia problems

faith is not a reason for attacking a candidate.

[slackmaster]

20. Yes, and official Islamic doctrine says Jews are sub-human

Let it all hang out!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

37. "Islamic" is overly broad, especially since I know Jews who are Sufis

The Sufi orders are open to everyone--I think you are thinking of the right wing Islamists, who do not represent all of Islam.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. If A Church Endorsed Pedophillia

It would certainly be fair game...

[PassingFair]

105. Right! Talking about "faith" is FORBIDDEN!

If he is for continuing "faith-based" subsidies, then
ATTACK, by all means!

If he means to defend the wall of separation, then
his "religion" is none of our business.


Especially in these days of "FAITH-BASED INITIATIVES"
or as I like to call it: PRAY FOR PAY Care!

:sarcasm:

Nothing to worry about here, keep moving.

Religion for Captive Audiences, With Taxpayers Footing the Bill:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/business/10faith.html?ex=1323406800&en=7050d803b8c42f05&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[iverglas]

95. educate yourself, and stop reading bigoted shit

For those who missed it, as most undoubtedly have, this is the bigoted shit in question, the source of the material in your opening post:

http://www.saintsalive.com/who.html

If you want to know what Mormons have to say, ask Mormons, not asshole Christian fundamentalists engaged in vilification of a competing batch of religious nuts.

http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/neither/neither5.htm

It's very long and I'm sure you won't read it, so I'll give you the conclusion.

Reconsidering the Past

It has been noted that Mormons have yet to "come to terms" with polygamy; our ambivalence toward the "polygamy era" expresses itself in a studied (and sometimes puritanical) effort to "live it down," while still lionizing the polygamists in our past. How will we "come to terms" with our era of racial discrimination? We must begin, I think, by maintaining a comparative historical perspective. Before we jump too quickly to demand, "Isn't the Mormon heritage racist?" let us be sure to ask, "Compared to what?" A sense of historical balance and fairness calls for a comparison of Mormon ways with the ways of others in similar times, places, and circumstances.

Careful review of the history of Mormon racism will reveal that it has followed closely the comparable history for America as a whole, sad as that may be. Ambivalent expressions from our leaders about the status of blacks during our Missouri period were certainly understandable in a border state. After the move to Illinois, Joseph Smith and others who spoke on the subject seemed to share the dominant Northern sentiment of the time, a moderate and gradual abolitionism, rather than either a perpetuation of slavery or the more radical and precipitous solutions of the abolitionist movement itself. Even the outspoken racism of Brigham Young and some of his colleagues in Utah, and the relatively benign form of slavery permitted there in the 1850s and 1860s, were close to mainstream opinion in America at the time. Abraham Lincoln himself did not believe in social or political equality for blacks in those days.114 After the Civil War, Jim Crow laws spread to Utah and remained entrenched there until the 1950s and 1960s, just as they did in the entire nation.115 The Jim Crow tradition may have receded more slowly in some respects in Utah than in some other states but, in general, about as rapidly as in most places.116 Mormon attitudes toward blacks, measured at the height of civil rights controversy in the society, differed little from national norms, given appropriate statistical "controls" for important demographic differences.118

Even the priesthood ban itself must be seen in comparative context. The pragmatic rather than theological fact of life is that the churches of America, like most other institutions, have all practiced racial discrimination. At least the major denominations had racially segregated congregations well into the age of civil rights, and blacks have never constituted more than a small proportion of the clergy of any denomination, even to this day.119 As in medicine and law, a professional clergy can (and does) restrict black access to power and privilege by the more subtle means of restricting access to the specialized education by which alone the requisite credential (or ordination) can be obtained. In more egalitarian religions like Mormonism, which has no professional priesthood, the functional or sociological equivalent of such institutionalized racism was necessarily and ironically much less subtle: a categorical and formal denial of access to the priesthood altogether. For all of their moral posturing, then, in practice the "liberal" Christian denominations never had appreciably more blacks ordained than the Mormons did.

Let us, then, not look back to hang our heads. If we look back at all, let us do so only to remember the lessons suggested by our struggle with the race issue: the principle of parsimony both in what we believe and in what we teach, lest we again digest dubious doctrine in the service of temporary policy; the human element that must be recognized, appreciated, and endured in the conduct of even high Church office, lest we deify our prophets instead of sustain them; and the ultimate vindication of patient loyalty to our leadership, lest the office of prophet become the pawn of contemporary politics. Let us consider too, with deepest appreciation, the example of sacrifice and subtle efficacy provided all these years by our black brethren and sisters in the gospel. If we can do all these things, we will have nothing to live down but much to live up to.

They ain't apologizing, but they got a point.

I'll be waiting for the Pope to renounce misogyny. I won't even expect an apology for two millennia of it.

Hell, I'd settle for WOMEN PRIESTS in the RC church, as a sign of good faith. A few decades behind the Mormon change of heart on full status for black church members, but what the hell; better late than never. Meanwhile, a little denunciation of and apology for that exclusionary fact of the RC church by all the RC political candidates out there seems to be called for.

And as long as RC political candidates, or political candidates of any other religion, aren't proposing to force me to obey the rules made by their religious leaders for them, I'll regard the Mormons and RCers and Southern Baptists and Pentacostals as just as bad as each other when it comes to their stupid/offensive personal beliefs, but judge them as candidates on what policies they advocate.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. No, why?

What's your belief system?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. It's Certainly Not A Belief Black Folks Were Put Here To Be My Servant And Were Cursed With Flat

Noses.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. What's your belief system?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. I Believe In The Dignity Of Man And Woman

regardless of color, sexual orientation, religion, etcetera...

I believe that we will all be judged one day for our conduct on this Earth...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Could have fooled me.

"I Believe In The Dignity Of Man And Woman regardless of color, sexual orientation, religion, etcetera..."

Btw, why are you dodging the question? What's your religion?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. I'm A Non Denominational Christian

eom

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. Oh, you're a christian, eh?

You mean like these guys?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. Yeah, I empathize with the Klan because I'm A Christian

Like this fella:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. I thought you said were willing to answer for your "ancestors" as recently as 1978.

Dish it out but can't take it, eh?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. It's A Non Sequitur...

Ted Bundy "accepted" Christ the night before he was executed...

Should I be responsibe for raping and murdering over forty women and having sex with some of them after they were dead?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. If you're going to hold Mitt Romney responsible for racism...

within the Mormon church, then yeah, you're just as responsible for the KKK or Ted Bundy or the Spanish Inquisition or George Bush or whatever else.

Hey, it's your logic.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. Nice Strawman Tactic...

I never said he's responsoble for his church's recent past... I only asked that he be questioned about it... I have seen almost every candidate asked about the role of faith in their life...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. You suggested that Romney was a racist because he was Mormon.

Should you be questioned as to whether or not you've molested any choir boys recently?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. Where Did I Suggest Romney Was Racist?

I'll be waiting...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. In the OP.

Please don't play dumb.

That just insults both of us.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. If I Asked Chris Dodd About The Catholich Church's Attitude Toward Gays Would I Be Suggesting He's A

Homophobe?

[BlooInBloo]

57. That's the stupidest excuse for a "line of reasoning" I think I've ever seen.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. Don't look at me.

It's DSB's reasoning.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. Nothing In This Thread Contradicts My Statement

Unless pointing out that Mormons believed blacks were cursed by God with "flat faces and broad noses" and were consigned by fate to be "servants" is an assault on their dignity...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Yeah, it does.

You say you're for the dignity of all men based on religion, but then you go and judge people based on what other people in their religion do.

You're really in no position to be accusing others of bigotry.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. I Am Bigoted Against Folks That Think Blacks Are Cursed And Indentured Servancy Is Their Punishment

Mea culpa...Mea culpa...Mea culpa...

Now if Mitt Romney or any Mormon rejects that part of their past I have no problems with them...

[piobair]

97. How do you feel about Harry Reid?

[Sapere aude]

10. I guess you think he needs to answer for anyone who came before him.

Let's see, should you answer for everything your ancestors did?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. I Am Willing To Answer For What My "Ancestors" Did In 1978

eom

[Sapere aude]

36. Your ancestors may have owned slaves or worse who knows.

If you're so pissed at Mormons why don't you attack them as a group and not just a single member? No single individual represents a whole congregation past and present. That's just a stupid idea!

Of course if you attacked the whole group you could be accused of religion bashing couldn't you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. My Ancestors Were Russian Peasants Who Came To America In 1917

They booked when the Revolution started...

No slaves...

[JVS]

64. Did they participate in pogroms?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. No And If They Did They Were Killing Themselves

And if they did I apologize for them...

That's all Mitt Romney has to do to put this subject to rest...

[Sapere aude]

65. How many Romanovs did they kill? Do they need to answer for the death

of the Czar's kids?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. My Ancestors Were Powerless Peasants...

I don't think they were killing anybody and they certainly weren't killing anbody in 1978...

And we are discussing Mormon text and policies that existed until 1978 and a racist past they have yet to repudiate...


Now if you asked me how I would feel if my ancestors thought blacks were inferior I would say they were seriously fucked up...

[Sapere aude]

70. Why is Romney any more responsible for what Mormons before him did than

your ancestors are for the killing of the Romanovs?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. My Ancestors Were Killing Romanovs In Our Lifetime

Must have had special weapons to reach them from NY, Cali, and FL...

[Sapere aude]

74. There never was a mention of time frame. You asked should he be asked about

the church's racist past. As if he is some how responsible for it or has to make amends for it. We are back to square one aren't we?

The point I'm trying to make is that he is no more responsible for what other people have done that your ancestors are. So no he should not be asked about the church's racist past. And if I might add that question is sort of religious racism in my way of thinking.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. I Neve Implied He Was Responsible...

If my ancestors did some fucked up things I would acknowledge them, apologize for them, and move on...

[slackmaster]

23. Absolutely - For 10 generations MINIMUM

The Klingons have that one right.

:D

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. I Am Willing To Answer For What My "Ancestors" Did In 1978

Next Question

[Breeze54]

12. No, it's stupid. I don't care what fairytale he worships.

He's a sleezy, rethug. What else do I need to know?

He had no control over what happened 140 years ago.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. They Didn't Allow Blacks To Be Elders Until 1978

That's not onew hundred forty years ago...

[Breeze54]

46. That was 29 years ago but I stand corrected.

Willard Mitt Romney (born March 12, 1947) He was 29 years old then.
Well, I stand corrected. I thought he was younger than that in 1978.

What the real question is:

Are you, Willard, :eyes: prejudiced?
Did you agree with allowing African Americans to enter the church and become elders?

Who cares what that asshole thinks though. :shrug: He's not going to win anyway.

I'd prefer not giving him any attention at all. But that's just me. ;)


He gives me the creeps, just like that movie did! :P

[AlCzervik]

14. no.

[jody]

19. IMO most religious denominations have a racist past as do most agnostics/atheists. n/t

[wuushew]

30. Are you saying that atheists tend to band together in powerful politically cohesive units?

That is not my experience.

[jody]

63. No, I did not say that. n/t

[tularetom]

28. Some of the wealthy mormans were pissed off that BYU

was getting their ass kicked in football because their team was full of pasty faced plowboys. In the seventies a delegation of these influential people went to the church muckety mucks in SLC and somewhow prevailed on them to begin recruiting some blacks to play there. The church leaders agreed but they knew that the church's policies would sort of turn off black recruits so they rewrote church policy to be less offensive to them.

This is a reason why I can't ever take them seriously.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. I Thought It Was Because They Wanted To Extend Their Church Ministry To Africa...

eom

[tularetom]

60. Could be - I'm not party to the inner workings

of the morman biigwigs. I had heard the sports story several years back and it sounded plausible.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Xithras]

39. Should Obama be criticized for the UCC's racist past?

After all, the UCC's predecessor church, the Reformed Church, did much work on Native American reservations to destroy their "inferior" native animist religions and replace it with Christianity.

If a Muslim wanted to run for office, would you advocate attacking him on his religions positions that women are subordinate to men?

Leave religion out of it. Technically, I'm still Catholic. Should I be attacked for some of the churches more controversial views on homosexuality and sex in general, even though I disagree with them?

[Bluebear]

41. Of course he can be asked, why are people hinky about that question?

He can even say he doesn't want to discuss it, but every Democratic candidate has been asked about their faith (to prove they are not heathens. I think); Romney's faith is as fair game as anyone else's.

[slackmaster]

47. Bluebear, I think the candidates should all be grilled about religion relentlessly

That way we could sort out who is sincere about it and who is adopting a persona of Christianity to ingratiate voters.

[Bluebear]

49. That sounds dandy to me.

We could also discern from the fire and brimstone go-to-hell types and those that are peaceful, loving adherents!

[JVS]

51. I demand trial by ordeal to see whom God favors! Grill them literally!

[PassingFair]

106. I know what to do with him!

Anybody got a duck?

[tammywammy]

42. No

[Nederland]

76. Should Hillary Clinton be asked about Methodist Church's history of racism?

just wondering....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

80. Why Not?

Expecially if they excluded blacks from being elders up until 1978...

[Nederland]

112. Funny how nobody even talks about that though, huh? (nt)

[paulk]

78. No. He should be asked about his personal beliefs, but I have

a real problem with the idea of trying to pin his religion's failings on him. Same goes for every other candidate.

ps -I spent 6 months living in Utah many years ago, and I generally have nothing good to say about the LDS.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. I Am Not Suggesting He Should Be

I want to know his thoughts about it... This isn't ancient history...

[dsc]

83. Of course he should

especially since this church kept him out of the VietNam war so he could spread its racist doctrine. He certainly deserves to be asked if he believed that doctrine or didn't.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. All He Has To Do Is Renounce It

eom

[dsc]

85. and one hopes he would

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. Really

These events were fairly recent...

He would probably say that is part of our church's past that we renounce and we have moved on...

[iverglas]

86. have you no discernment at all?

You say "their own text is being quoted" -- but are you really unaware of whom YOU are quoting?

That blank space in the middle of your quoted passage speaks volumes; here's what it actually says in the source itself (emphases in original):

May true Christians beware of all such hypocrisy!

http://www.saintsalive.com/

Welcome to the ministry web site of Saints Alive in Jesus! We are an "Apologetics" group, evangelical in nature and generate research and study material, comparing groups such as Mormonism and Freemasonry with orthodox Christianity.

While our major ministry areas deal with Mormonism and Freemasonry, you will find numerous other world religions, cult groups and issues covered. To access the articles and information just go to the Resource Library and make certain to check the Newsletter Archive.

You may also read chapters from my latest book, MY KINGDOM COME - The Mormon Quest for Godhood here online as well.

"My latest book" -- so who is this authority and what cathedra is he speaking ex?

http://www.saintsalive.com/who.html

We are a Christian nonprofit corporation founded upon the call of God to witness Jesus to those lost in Mormonism and other cults. Many of us are "Born Again" ex-Mormons who have found the Real Jesus Christ and have received him as our Lord and Savior. Our staff and fellow workers are people who feel the clear and unmistakable call of God to minister Jesus Christ, in love, to the cults and have the solid witness of the indwelling Christ.

Ed Decker, founder of Saints Alive, was a Mormon for 20 years of his adult life. He was a member of the Melchizedek priesthood, a Temple Mormon and active in many church positions. Through a crisis in his life, Ed met the real Jesus and his life was changed forever. An active author, speaker and evangelist, Ed has brought the light of Biblical truth to uncountable thousands of those lost in spiritual darkness. Today, the work of Saints Alive Ministries has expanded worldwide and includes ministry to other groups such as the Masonic Lodge. READ MORE ABOUT ED...

What do we believe?

We hold that the Holy Bible is God's inerrant eternal Word and is the sole, final authority for faith and practice; that Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son, Almighty God come in the flesh and humanity's only Savior; and that God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone will gain our entrance into the Kingdom of God. We believe in the Trinitarian nature of God as taught in the Bible, believing God was in Christ redeeming the world by the power of the Holy Spirit. We believe in good works as a result of, rather than a means of salvation. We believe that the New Testament church, the Body of Christ, has never apostatized and is alive and well today, called to win the lost to Christ and expecting His soon return!

Well forgive me, but visions of finger-pointing black cooking utensils are just dancing all unbidden in my head.

Yeesh ...

http://www.google.ca/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&q=site%3Awww.saintsalive.com+homosexual&btnG=Search&meta=

... I expected to find that fundie crew denouncing homosexuality and homosexuals (and they hardly disappoint, of course) ... but here I find that they are denouncing Mormons and Masons for being homosexuals ...

http://www.saintsalive.com/newsletters/march2005/march2005.htm

Bill Schnoebelen is the author of Wicca: Satan's Little White Lie, and co-author of Mormonism's Temple of Doom. He is a former Mormon and former Satanist. When interviewed for "The God Makers II" video, Bill commented:

We are seeing, in Utah, the fruits of the teachings of Mormonism reflected in social statistics. We are seeing homosexuality running rampant among people in Utah. We are seeing child abuse and teenage suicide.

John Heinerman, an active Mormon at the time, is the co-author (with Anson Shupe) of The Mormon Corporate Empire and was the Director of The Anthropological Research Center in Salt Lake City, Utah. John commented on the same subject.

The Mormon Church is caught up in the dilemma of having to, for the first time, face the reality that there are major problems within its organization, with its membership that are just not going to go away. One of these (problems) is homosexuality. In 1981, homosexuality was in another category called "other moral offenses." In '82 it was taken out, and put into a category by itself.... Homosexuality has increased by 50%, 100%, 200%, and it has just gone upward.

Yup, homosexuality is on the rise -- and it's right up there with drug abuse and child abuse and adultery.


Me, I'm just not interested in what one freakazoid god-botherer has to say about another.

I''m not impressed with the Mormon Church's history of racism, either. But if I wanted to use it against Romney, I'd do my homework first. In fact, I did.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=878762&mesg_id=878825
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=878762&mesg_id=879223


Anyhow. If none of us belonged to any group with which we had a disagreement, none of us would belong to any group at all.

And if we judged all candidates by the offensive tenets of the religion they acquired by birth and have never repudiated, I would never vote for anybody. Certainly not for the RC priest who represented me at the municipal level for years, and whose every campaign I worked on. And his colleagues in the cloth wouldn't have voted for anybody at all either (and certainly not for me, as I happen to know a few who did), since you'd be hard pressed to find an anti-choice candidate for anything in my part of the world ...

Candidates' stances on public policy are what matter most. Along the way, it can be instructive to look at how they've lived their lives, but not too many people are going to score a perfect 100 on that score.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. What's Your Point?

That the group that is disparaging the Mormons is worthy of disparagement themselves...That's like saying water's errrrrrrrrrrrrrrr wet....

That Fundamentalists have a beef with Mormons... We know dat...

I could just have easily got the quotes from The Book Of Mormon and other official church doctrine...


on edit- I only footnnoted it so people wouldn't think I made it up.. If a person is accurately quoted it matters not where they are quoted...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

89. Res Ipsa Loquitur

Verbatim Quote:




"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less."

-Joeseph Fielding Smith






"The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them. 'No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood' (Brigham Young). It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same. If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children. To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a 'Nation of Priesthood holders'...."


-Mormon elder Mark E. Peterson in an address to a Convention of Teachers of Religion at Brigham Young University.

[iverglas]

93. indeed it does

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4288103.stm
(emphasis in original)

Pope likens abortion to Holocaust

Pope John Paul II has launched a new book in which he controversially compares abortion and the Holocaust.

"We have to question the legal regulations that have been decided in the parliaments of present day democracies. The most direct association which comes to mind is the abortion laws...

"Parliaments which create and promulgate such laws must be aware that they are transgressing their powers and remain in open conflict with the law of God and the law of nature."

Did the Mormons in the 1960s attempt to have the enslavement of African-Americans made law? I'll take someone who keeps his/her stupid/offensive beliefs to him/herself any time over someone who demands that the rest of the world obey what his/her church says, myself.

Motes and logs, motes and logs. If you're not going to demand that John Kerry renounce his church's present-day vicious misogyny on pain of your wrath, but you're going to bring said wrath down on the head of a candidate because of what his church preached four decades ago ... well, you got a bigger log than I'd care to have in my eye.

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less."

Hmm ... is that the Dalai Lama person I'm hearing there? Cripes, the only reason anybody listens to him at all is that he claims to be somebody else reincarnated ... a belief just as stupid and obnoxious as Joseph Smith's and the Mormons'. Let's hear some vilifying of him next time he comes up, okay? I'm happy to do it; I'll PM you and you can join in.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. American Politicians Have Brought Their "Faith" Into The Public Arena

Therefore questions about their faith are fair game...

I think we are in agreement...Maybe we aren't...


Oh, and the Dalai Lama has some interesting ideas about homosexuality but I already opened one Pandora's Box...

[iverglas]

96. then go beat on some RCers

The Mormons stopped their exclusionary practice decades ago.

The RC church still relegates women to a subordinate role and denies them the full range of roles within that church that black Mormons now enjoy in theirs. Apology there? For what they're still doing? Shall I hold my breath?

The Dalai Lama is dirt, and any native-born North American fools who follow him around kissing his feet or his ring or whatever one does to one of those deserves to be spurned.

Yes, anybody who makes his/her own religion a political issue deserves everything s/he gets. But that would seem to include the whole lot of them in the US, as far as I can tell.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

98. I Have No Problem Asking Candidates Questions About Their Faith If They Make It Part Of Their

Campaign...

In the USA pro-choice Roman Catholic politicians are often asked to square their pro-choice views with their church's admonitions against abortion...

Surprisingly they aren't asked about their church's attitude toward the role women play in the church...


Interesting bias there...

As for Mr. Romney I don't think he's a racist or believes his church's abandoned cockamamie race theories... I just don't think the question is off base...


I am for free , unfettered inquiry...

[Recursion]

90. No

A) The history of his church has little relationship to his qualifications to serve as President
B) That's probably the only thing we could do that would make fundies stick up for him
C) I'm a Presbyterian; yet I would not like to be held accountable for Knox's and Calvin's flaws
D) I would hate to look less graceful than Nixon, who flatly and publicly forbade insults against JFK's catholicism (too bad the Nixon of '68 was not the Nixon of '60... what happened to him?)

[AnotherGreenWorld]

92. Yes...

[SoonerPride]

99. Yes.

Make him cry.

[geek_sabre]

100. What does Harry Reid have to say about his religion's racist past?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

101. I Would Ask Him Also

eom

[Drix]

103. Yes

If an atheist ran for president it would be that attribute that defined that candidate. Virtually every question would focus on that candidate's beliefs. Every pundit would not mention that candidates name without mentioning his/her beliefs. Why should religious people get a free ride?

[frogcycle]

104. name a religion without such a past

AME doesn't count

[philosophie_en_rose]

111. No. But he should be asked about racism, hate crimes, and affirmative action.

I don't think he's responsible for everything the Mormons have ever done, but it's perfectly reasonable to grill him about his policy choices.

[rAVES]

113. Mormonism is a cult.

[DemGa]

114. Sure, why not?

He's a member of this group that said such things. If this was the teaching of the religion and he is a member of the religion, why not??