wow, Hartmann just put 2 and 2 together for me

[LSK]

Right after 9/11, the Dems controlled the Senate at the time. Leahy chaired the Judiciary Committee and Daschle was Senate Majority leader. The Patriot Act could have been killed in the Judiciary Committee and Daschle could have floored it as Senate Majority Leader.

Who are the 2 Senators who got Anthrax attacks at that time??? Daschle and Leahy.

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. Yep, yep, yep. THEY WERE TARGETED BY THE GOVERNMENT.

That's why no one has ever been caught. They're hoping people will just forget about it.

SURELY, Leahy and and Daschle know who did that, right?

[LSK]

2. and could the same people in the Govt be threatening Reid??

To get the FISA bill through?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

3. As there was absolutely no reason for Reid and Pelosi put it for vote. nt

[xxqqqzme]

7. and in 6 months when this is revisited???

that will be mid January when all the media attention will turn to 'about to expire' and the big primary 'super Tuesday' is about to happen.

[LSK]

10. Terra Terra Terra

:scared:

[King Coal]

117. And remember: The Patriot Act wasn't written in 15 minutes after 9/11.

It was ready to go long before that.

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. MORE terror alerts! JUST WATCH and pay very close attention to the terrorism 'buzz' that comes in

December and January. It's GUARANTEED. Take it to the bank.

[proud patriot]

21. chertoff will have gas again

:eyes:

[AndyTiedye]

38. In 6 Months, They'll Know Who Is Worth Tapping

This is all about legalized Watergate for the 2008 elections. Those warrantless authorizations are good for a year.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3438520

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

89. Someone on DU this past weekend said quite eloquently ..that it would be like setting off an atomic

bomb and trying to get all the atoms back into the bomb.

[havocmom]

4. cheney will stop at nothing to remain in power. Knowledge is power

wire taps keep cheney in knowledge.

[Virginia Dare]

95. somebody here recently theorized..

that Cheney even has the White House bugged. Wouldn't doubt it, as paranoid as the chimp is.

[in_cog_ni_to]

13. yep, yep, yep...they certainly COULD BE

and probably are!

[jobycom]

19. Targeted because of the government, not necessarily by the government

All the targets of the anthrax attack were people BushCo perceived as enemies--the photo editor for the Enquirer who published Jenna Bush's pictures, several "liberal" MSM folk, and two senators, who were not only Bush adversaries, but also could have flipped control of the Senate back to the Republicans if they had died.

That doesn't prove it was Bush's doing, or the government's. There are sicko fanatics out there who would "avenge" Bush all on their own.

In favor of BushCo being behind it: the attacks have never been repeated (unusual for serial lunatics), they remain unsolved, and the letter accompanying the anthrax tried to blame Muslim terrorists, rather than taking credit for some pro-Republican, anti-liberal domestic group. Such terrorists like to brag--like the Unabomber.

In favor of it not being Bush--the anthrax was very crude, it was ineffective against most targets (it killed more people by accident), the understanding of the Senate was extremely naive (senators don't open their own mail, so there was no point in mailing it to them), and at best, it was an extremely low-percentage attack, meaning the odds that any of it would work at all was very weak. One would think that if the government had been involved, the attacks, at least on the Senate, would have been successful, or at least better planned.

I tend to think it was some nutcase Freeper with a science kit. But I wouldn't be surprised if it were BushCo. Not at all. The political side of the attacks was ignored by the media, who I guess felt it would go against their jobs as promoters of the conservative agenda to imply that a conservative could have hurt someone.

[LSK]

23. but look at the goal of the attacks

Intimidation, not murder.

[jobycom]

35. Who knows that?

Without knowing who did it?

[LSK]

43. it goes along with the theory that is floated in my OP

This is all speculation of course.

[jobycom]

45. All speculation.

Yours and mine. That was my only point. You could be right. I personally don't think they were trying to intimidate Daschle and Leahy, I think they were trying to kill them.

[Raksha]

82. It's not worth splitting hairs over the motive. It was classic terrorism.

The perps would no doubt have been pleased if they had succeeded in taking out Leahy and Daschle. But even if they didn't, they succeeded in terrorizing the survivors. As a matter of fact they succeeded in terrorizing the whole country! What better proof of the "need" for a surveillance program than sending deadly germs through the U.S. mails?

[Virginia Dare]

96. There was a very recent incident, very much glossed over..

there were serious terrorist threats against the Capitol Building in the days leading up to the FISA vote. Trent Lott suggested shutting everything down until after Sep. 11. AFAIK it only made news locally in Washington. Any idiot can put these pieces together.

[RainDog]

109. also the "new" bin laden tape

remember ABC news had a "new" tape from bin laden in July that, it was later determined was from an older video.

btw, while looking for a link to this latest threat, I found this site which challenges some of the 9-11 mihop claims of evidence. I don't know enough to be able to discount either version, but I thought this might be a good addition to any discussion of the same. Maybe others have already looked at this site.

one thing I've wondered about is the relation between this latest talk about threats and the situation in Pakistan. If the ISI manages to bring down Musharref, Pakistan becomes a whole other issue for any anti-islamic fundie nation. I know the recent talk is to invade Iran, but I think this administration does try to "mulit-task" as far as wars are concerned. Maybe a terrorist incident that could be traced to Pakistan would provide the cover to go in and get rid of a lot of Musharref's ISI/other islamic fundie enemies without Musharref's "agreement." In other words, he could play conciliator between factions in his country because he could blame someone else. maybe that's too much of a risk to take, but he is on shaky grounds, it seems.

Maybe that's totally off. Since members of the dem party claim they have seen warnings that make the threat of terrorism seem imminent, I tend to think that there will be an attack, or widely known attempt, in the near future. The threat that dems would be blamed in such as case (and this threat used to strongarm the dems on FISA) makes as much sense as anything to me.

I hope my speculation is wrong.

[Virginia Dare]

116. My speculation as well..

unfortunately. And I'm sure it's no accident that the Dem candidates are dancing all around this Pakistan thing. IMO, it's the situation in Pakistan that needs to be dealt with, not in Iran, and Pakistan's role in 9/11 has never been fully revealed. I suspect at the very least there was money being laundered through them, and they have and continue to provide cover.

There is an extremely complicated and dangerous game going on right now between Russia, China, India, Pakistan and the U.S. It's going to get very sticky, very soon. After China holds the Olympics, all bets are off.

[RainDog]

129. there was this...

Pakistani ISI Director Lt. Gen. Mahmood Ahmed allegedly wire money to Atta (as did Saaed Sheikh- the economics guy). Pakistan supported the Taliban (the U.S. did too, of course, but not so much after they let bin Laden re-establish his camps in Afghanistan in the late 90s.) Of course, that support, like the U.S. has done many times, was a strategy to play them off India in case India wanted to get uppity with Pakistan. The whole situation is a mess anyway you look at it, if you don't favor fundie groups, whereever they come from.


One more reason why this current repuke slate is maybe, certainly the worst ever in the history of any living person. They have talked about first strike nukes and have re-started the arms race with all their beligerent crap. They violated nuclear drawdown agreements. The idiotic rightwing public and radio freaks talk all the time about turning the middle east to glass... as if that is going to stop hostilities. they must be unaware of the number of muslims around the world and how would motivate the most tolerate to have reason to join to bring down this nation. I get sooo tired of right wing dick wagging. It's their mastabatory fantasies about their big powerful guns...maybe they can't get laid.. I dunno why they're like that.

Sy Hersh, in the NYorker, noted the stand-down order to let the ISI escape the Tora-Bora region where they were fighting with al-q/the taliban after 9-11. I think that was to keep the "GWOT" going in order do the (pre-9-11 planned) invasion of Iraq. I've seen Bhutto on tv quite a bit lately. Maybe she's going to the designated hitter if Musharref is removed in some way. She gave $ to the ISI to go to the Taliban, but that was long before the current situation.

[rateyes]

24. I thought it was weapons grade anthrax...

and they knew where it had been processed.

[jobycom]

33. That was the original story

When they were trying to blame Iraq or Iran for the attacks they claimed it was highly sophisticated. When they no longer needed it for Iraq, they downgraded it to a lower grade, somewhat easily-produced version. Who knows which was the cover and which the truth, if either was true. They still go back and forth on it.

From Wikipedia:

Early reports suggested the anthrax sent to the Senate had been "weaponized." On October 29, 2001, Major General John Parker at a White House briefing said that silica had been found in the Daschle anthrax sample. Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge in a White House press conference on November 7, 2001, told reporters that tests indicated a binding agent had been used in making the anthrax.<6> Later, the FBI claimed a "lone individual" could have weaponized anthrax spores for as little as $2,500, using a makeshift basement laboratory.<7>

snip

Two experts on the Soviet anthrax program, Kenneth Alibek and Matthew Meselson, were consultants with the Justice Department and were shown electron micrographs of the anthrax from the Daschle letter. They replied to the Washington Post article "FBI's Theory on Anthrax Is Doubted" (October 28, 2002), reporting that they saw no evidence the anthrax spores had been coated and that more careful investigation of the specimens is necessary <12>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrax_attack#Controversy_over_coatings_and_additives

[davekriss]

83. Selective reading?

That same Wikipedia article goes on:

A week after Meselson and Alibek had their letter published in the Washington Post, the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), one of the military labs that analyzed the Daschle anthrax, published an official newsletter stating that silica was a key aerosol enabling component of the Daschle anthrax.< 13 > The AFIP lab deputy director, Florabel Mullick, said "This < silica > was a key component. Silica prevents the anthrax from aggregating, making it easier to aerosolize. Significantly, we noted the absence of aluminum with the silica. This combination had previously been found in anthrax produced by Iraq."

In February 2005, Stephan P. Velsko of Lawrence Livermore National Labs published a paper titled "Physical and Chemical Analytical Analysis: A key component of Bioforensics".< 14 > In this paper, Velsko illustrated that different silica coating processes gave rise to weaponized anthrax simulants that look completely different from one another. He suggested that the difference in the look of products could provide evidence of what method the lab that manufactured the 2001 anthrax used, and thus provide clues to the ultimate origin of the material.

<snip>

In July 2005, Dr Michael V Callahan (who is presently with DOD's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)) gave a briefing before the Subcommittee on Prevention of Nuclear and Biological Attack.< 16 > Dr Callahan stated "First, the attack illustrated that advanced expertise had readily been exploited by a bioterrorist; the preparation in the Daschle letter contained extraordinarily high concentrations of purified endospores. Second, the spore preparation was coated with an excipient which helped retard electrostatic attraction, thus increasing aerosolization of the agent."

In April 2007 an analysis of the spore preparation was published in the International Journal of Intelligence and Counterintelligence< 17 >. This analysis by Dr. Dany Shoham and Dr. Stuart Jacobsen pointed out that the sophisticated additives and processing used to create the weapon likely could be used to trace the origin.

Reads to me like the consensus leans to agreement that the Anthrax was highly weaponized and not something that could have been manufactured in a makeshift lab.

[trashcanistanista]

25. It was government grade

anthrax. No one could just develop it. It was taken from a government lab. That much is known through DNA analysis.

[FogerRox]

61. The source of the Anthrax was a US military lab.

The strain has been identified.

"One would think that if the government had been involved, the attacks, at least on the Senate, would have been successful,"

You are assuming the goal was to kill. No ? Somewhat limits your storyline options.

[jobycom]

67. Not right.

The original strain was isolated in a military lab, but then shipped to over a dozen research labs, so the origin of the specific samples used is not known.

-------

"Although the anthrax preparations were of different grades, all of the material derived from the same bacterial strain. Known as the Ames strain, it was first researched at the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID), Fort Detrick, Maryland. The Ames strain was then distributed to at least fifteen bio-research labs within the U.S. and six locations overseas."

"As of 2007, the anthrax investigation seems to have gone cold.<18><19> Authorities have traveled to six different continents, interviewed more than 9,100 people, conducted 67 searches and have issued over 6,000 subpoenas. The number of FBI agents assigned to the case is 17. The number of postal inspectors investigating the case is ten.<20> Investigators have not identified the lab used to make the anthrax."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrax_attacks#The_anthrax_material

[FogerRox]

69. ..

The Washington Post reported yesterday that the spores in the Daschle letter had been treated with a chemical additive using technology so sophisticated that it almost certainly came from the United States, Iraq or the former Soviet Union. A government official with direct knowledge of the investigation has said that the totality of the evidence so far suggests it is unlikely the spores were originally produced in the former Soviet Union or Iraq.

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/Bioter/anthraxinmailames.html

But the larger implication was somewhat puzzling. If the anthrax sent to Daschle came from one of three state-sponsored bioweapons programs, and if the former Soviet Union and Iraq are discounted as suspects, that leaves the biowarfare program of the United States, which officially ended its biological weapons program in 1969.

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/Bioter/theamesstrain.html

Capitol Hill Anthrax Matches Army's Stocks 5 Labs Can Trace Spores to Ft. Detrick

By Rick Weiss and Susan Schmidt
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, December 16, 2001; Page A01

Genetic fingerprinting studies indicate that the anthrax spores mailed to Capitol Hill are identical to stocks of the deadly bacteria maintained by the U.S. Army since 1980, according to scientists familiar with the most recent tests.

Although many laboratories possess the Ames strain of anthrax involved in this fall's bioterrorist attacks, only five laboratories so far have been found to have spores with perfect genetic matches to those in the Senate letters, the scientists said. And all those labs can trace back their samples to a single U.S. military source: the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Disease (USAMRIID) at Fort Detrick, Md.

http://www.mapcruzin.com/news/war121601a.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A36408-2001Nov29

[jobycom]

114. Exactly what I said.

Read your last paragraph again: "only five laboratories so far have been found to have spores with perfect genetic matches to those in the Senate letters, the scientists said. And all those labs can trace back their samples to a single U.S. military source: the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Disease (USAMRIID) at Fort Detrick, Md."

In other words, they don't know where the spores came from, even though ultimately they trace the strain back to Fort Detrick. As I said. That report was dated 12/16/01, also, so my information was more current.

Thanks for agreeing.

[RainDog]

71. Barbara Rosenberg and Francis Boyle

Rosenberg, a scientist who runs the Fed. of American Scientist's Bio Weapons Monitoring Program, developed a profile of the anthrax mailer. She has been the most authoritative source I've read about this issue. This article is old, but was written after the anthrax had been examined (and resulted published in the journal Science.

The anthrax the terrorist sent belongs to the "Ames" strain of the bacterium, which was extracted from an infected cow in Texas in 1981. In December, the Washington Post reported that genetic tests showed that the variety used by the terrorist was a sub-strain cultivated by scientists at the US army's medical research institute for infectious diseases (USAMRIID) at Fort Detrick, Maryland. That finding was publicly confirmed two weeks ago, when the test results were published in the journal Science. New Scientist magazine notes that the anthrax the terrorist used appears to have emerged from Fort Detrick only recently, as the researchers found that samples which have been separated from each other for three years acquire "substantial genetic differences".

Barbara Hatch Rosenberg has produced a profile of the likely perpetrator. He is an American working within the US biodefense industry, with a doctoral degree in the relevant branch of microbiology. He is skilled and experienced at handling the weapon without contaminating his surroundings. He has full security clearance and access to classified information. He is among the tiny number of Americans who had received anthrax vaccinations before September 2001. Only a handful of people fit this description. Rosenberg has told the internet magazine Salon.com that three senior scientists have identified the same man - a former USAMRIID scientist - as the likely suspect.

Monbiot makes a good point that the FBI wouldn't be too enthusiastic about finding the person because the anthrax violates domestic and bioweapons conventions.

Francis A. Boyle, an international law expert who worked under the first Bush Administration as a bioweapons advisor in the 1980s, has said that he is convinced the October 2001 anthrax attacks that killed five people were perpetrated and covered up by criminal elements of the U.S. government. The motive: to foment a police state by killing off and intimidating opposition to post-9/11 legislation such as the USA PATRIOT Act and the later Military Commissions Act.

There's someone else who may fit the criteria from Rosenberg...I don't know enough to say, but he's someone who makes me go "hmmm." Jerome (Jerry) Hauer.

Winter Patriot has information on Hauer, tho I think the youtube video he included in this post isn't very well-thought out... some of the questions can be easily answered.

Hauer took a job with Emergent ONE MONTH (illegal) after he left govt. service, btw.

Sadly, when the anthrax was mailed, I immediately and strongly suspected it was a way to intimidate congress (and shut down information/investigations) and to get the patriot act passed. As Conyers admitted... people didn't even read the whole thing before they voted for it. I didn't want to think that Bush et al was capable of that, but consequent actions by the repuke congress and bush do not contradict that possibility. in fact, they are the most likely suspects, as far as benefiting from the crime.

[RainDog]

75. Boyle Link

this link should work. sometimes it's hard to remember to use the DU brackets.

[jobycom]

115. .

The Rosenberg information is outdated, and even so, she only says that the strain was traced to Fort Detrich, not the sample actually mailed out.

Boyle is speculating. He may be right. He may not be. But I'm not into faith-based crime solving.

As for whether Bush is capable of such a crime, I never doubted for a moment, and I suspected a coup the moment I heard about the attacks on the Senate, especially after the fake-Muslim letter was published. I didn't say it wasn't BushCo, I said there's more than one possibility. One being Bush. One being some independent loon who wanted to help Bush.

Bottom line, none of your info above proves the anthrax came directly from a government installation. You may choose to be sure. I choose to be rely on evidence. Sorry for that--it's the liberal in me.

[EnricoFermi]

81. Anthrax attacks and the Impending Coup

The first anthrax attacks were this crude form (resembling purina dog chow) and may have been carried out by actual terrorists, possibly actually al Qaeda. These were sent out on Sept 18th, making it fairly likely to be related to the September 11th attacks. They were targeted at the media, specifically designed to scare the public. This is in line with terrorism.

The second attack, sent on October 9th, was a copycat and used a high military grade form of anthrax. The reports stating that it wasn't high quality were about an analysis of the first attacks and not the second. People tend to think they had to be the same person or group because of the handwriting so they will look at the anthrax from the first attack and assume that since it was crude that both were this same substance. However, if you read carefully, the second attacks did contain a very high grade form that was easily aerosoled using aluminum, exactly what the United States had developed (and was continuing to illegally develop).

Specifically:

1) Attack two, mailed on October 9th, three weeks after the initial mailing on September 18th, only targeted two people, coincidentally two of the most prominent members of the opposition, Democratic Senators Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy. If Daschle and Leahy caved, the rest of the Democrats would. Recall that Cheney told Leahy "to go fuck himself"

2) The first and second attacks differed substantially. The first involved a far cruder substance, resembling "yellow dog chow" as reported the media and it was sent almost immediately after Sept 11, to a wide range of media organizations, obviously to get attention and cause panic. The second, the famous white powder, was considered a highly concentrated "military grade", the exact strain as the one developed by US Army Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases at Fort Detrick. Maryland.

3) The FBI investigation was mysteriously botched or blocked and evidence was even destroyed. This is partially because the development of this anthrax was in direct violation of an International Treaty that the US was supposed to be following, but more than likely because this was an insider with links to the Bush Administration, and probably direct ties to Dick Cheney. The FBI investigation even noted that it likely came from a far right wing individual, unlike the news circulated during the pandemonium. This was such a sensitive issue that investigating it potentially created more of a problem than anything else, with many people possibly being held accountable for the continued weapons program.

4) Because of the two different types of anthrax, the media and even some experts often confused the two, assuming that there had to be a direct link between the two incidents, simply because the letter handwriting matched. Some media outlets, most notably those with ties to Rupert Murdoch's media such as Fox News and NY Post reported that this form of anthrax resembled weaponized forms found in Iraq, in an attempt to sell the war. Strangely, this may be partially true. This is because the United States supplied Iraq with biological and chemical weapons during its war with Iran. However, the strain (by DNA) found in the Daschle/Leahy letter more closely resembled a more recent form, specifically and more recently used in US military facilities, illegally as mentioned above.

5) The handwriting in the Daschle/Leahy letter, although it did resemble the first letters, is significantly neater and has exact copies of characters from the first letter, copied multiple times. Unlike the first anthrax letters, a single character such as an 'E' will exactly resemble itself when used again in that same letter. This is unnatural to anyone writing words and focusing on completing a sentence, no matter how careful they are, but completely consistent with someone trying to forge a copy. In addition, when drawing a line under each of the characters in the two sets of letters, you see a clear straight pattern in the first letter, but a jagged patchwork in the second, as if these characters were slowly placed in their spots and not neatly written out. So while this person was careful to match the handwriting style, he or she completely failed to make a letter that followed natural handwriting flow. It is a clear forgery.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/may2002/anth-m15.shtml

Please print out the letters and confirm this for yourself.

So I firmly believe that the second attack was a copycat attack, set up by members of our own military and people (or a person) inside bioweapons programs at the direction of the White House. It was an effort to push the Patriot Act through Congress without careful analysis and can be looked at as the initial beginning of the coup. Fortunately for us, some of the more obscene aspects were removed, but we've seen a lot of it rear its ugly head again, even recently.
---------------------------------------------

Now, with this October 18th attack accepted, we must look at the impending attacks very carefully, especially if they are as substantial as I assume they will be. After looking at everything from recent legislation, such as FISA, the executive orders, FEMA contracts, statements about support being different by September, and a theory going around that Congress was shown something to pass FISA (Olberman), then combining this with the language of the administration and the perceived confidence they are showing, I have one conclusion that I hope is incorrect:

Post attack, the agenda is to gain complete control over the government with little or no power to a compliant Congress, at the control of the Executive with the Pentagon controlling the populace and the Judicial supporting both departments. At its worst, we will see martial law, a slowly increasing use of internment camps (holding up to 200K), and absolutely no ability to protest or practice some of the most basic liberties. The population will pretty much be unaware of it when it first starts, accepting it for their own safety as we saw in 2001, but to an even greater degree out of mass panic. This time we will not get it back, and the coup will be complete. I would use the 1933 Business Plot for historical context. Bush's own grandfather was allegedly involved with that.

To add even more startling information. Very recently, a friend of mine who is a pilot for the Air Force, was so concerned about a briefing that she had on the likelihood of terrorist attacks in the next 90 days, that she has been telling the closest of all family and friends to prepare by stocking food and water. She was very upset. She thought (or was told) that it would probably be in multiple cities this time to demonstrate that none of us are safe wherever we live. Right after this briefing, she had a bioterrorism and chemical weapons training that was not part of routine. It apparently is only rehearsed every "eight years or so", and had everything from explosions on base to chemicals being released. Other people I know in the government have also been preparing for chemical and bioweapons attacks, either administratively or actively. This can't be a coincidence can it? If anyone else here has information to share, please do.

I see a lot of people talking about this just being fear mongering, and I am sounding a little Chicken Little here I imagine. However, we must at least think about the whole process and expose it transparently without causing mass panic or being considered a crazy conspiracy theorist. This stuff can happen here, and if you connect the dots, it has been. I do not believe 9/11 was an inside job or anything like that, but the reaction to it was intentional, and I think the incompetence was probably deliberate. They've known that we need to get both Iran and Iraq for some time. They can't sell another invasion, so something has to happen.

Are we willing to stand up and prevent it?

[jobycom]

120. Some mistakes.

There were possibly three different grades of anthrax, including an intermediary grade between the early mailings and the Senate mailings.

"The letters contained at least two grades of anthrax material; the coarse brown material sent in the media letters and the fine powder sent to the two U.S. Senators. In addition, it has been suggested the anthrax material sent to an old Post Office Box address of the National Enquirer and then forwarded to AMI may have been an intermediate grade similar to the anthrax sent to the Senate.<2> The brown granular anthrax sent to media outlets in New York City caused only skin infections, cutaneous anthrax. The anthrax sent to the Senators caused the more dangerous form of infection known as inhalation anthrax, as did the anthrax sent to AMI in Florida.

Although the anthrax preparations were of different grades, all of the material derived from the same bacterial strain. Known as the Ames strain, it was first researched at the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID), Fort Detrick, Maryland. The Ames strain was then distributed to at least fifteen bio-research labs within the U.S. and six locations overseas."

Further, the early reports that the senate anthrax was "weaponized" is disputed.

"More potent than the first anthrax letters, the material in the Senate letters was a highly refined dry powder consisting of about one gram of nearly pure spores. Earlier reports described the material in the Senate letters as "weaponized" or "weapons grade" anthrax. However, in September 2006, the Washington Post reported that the FBI no longer believes the anthrax was weaponized."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrax_attacks

Back to my original assertion. It could have been BushCo, it could have been a rogue within our government, or it could have been some lone loon who did his homework and wanted to "help" Bush.

Here's a possible profile. A lone nut, a survivalist with a chemistry degree, sits and stews during the Clinton administration. He is angry about Waco and Ruby Ridge and whatever else. He sees the Democrats as weak on foreign policy, too strong on local civil liberties. So he sits around his little cabin or mom's basement or wherever, staring at his guns but to cowardly to assassinate anyone. He devises a plan to mail something deadly to his enemies, and does the research, and figures out exactly how he would pull it off. Somehow he even finds a way to get his hands on the raw material. Bush gets elected and he's happy, but still mad at the Democrats. Jeffords switches sides, and he fumes that the Republicans won the Congress fair and square. The media is beginning to target Bush, and he fumes at them. The Enquirer starts following the twins, and he gets even angrier. Go to Free Republic, you'll find dozens in that category.

Suddenly, 9-11 happens, and he's furious. His beloved America was attacked, and in his mind the media and the Democrats are against his hero Bush. They hate Bush, thus they hate America, thus, they are the enemy. The Democrats stole the Senate, so he must steal it back for the Republicans, for the sake of America. Someone must do something! Someone must make the media understand the danger. He puts his plan into effect, quickly. His first batch turns out a bit rough, but he's learned to make it stronger. He sends it out to the media, to get their attention. He includes a note implicating Muslims, because he thinks maybe that will make them understand the enemy better.

His second batch turns out better, so he mails it to a few other targets, but he has figured out to make it even better. He mails the third batch to the Senate. Then he is out of spores, or he is worried about getting caught, or he just feels like his message is sent. Maybe he even realizes how many people died, and feels remorse.

Who knows? That's my point. It could be someone like the person above, it could be someone connected to the government. The evidence isn't conclusive.

[EnricoFermi]

125. Thanks

I agree with your opinion, but tend to put more weight in the idea of this coming from the US government. If not, it certainly didn't get a fair investigation. This wasn't coincidental, and the ensuing cover up (or botched investigation) suggests that it came from or was supported by the government.

As I noted with the handwriting, we need to consider the possibility that the last attack, which was postmarked three weeks later, came from a different source. If you enlarge the images of the letters, you'll see what I am saying about the letter carefully copying the handwriting. As for the strains of anthrax, I think there was some confusion in the media between all three (thanks for the correction) strains. At least two were not of that military grade we mentioned and I believe this is the reason that the entire attacks were not considered "military." The last substance was clearly white, suggesting that it was the more sophisticated aluminum based type I mentioned. For the genetics, I reference this article:

On 9 May 2002, New Scientist published an article that reported:

'The DNA sequence of the anthrax sent through the US mail in 2001 has been revealed and confirms suspicions that the bacteria originally came from a US military laboratory. The data released uses codenames for the reference strains against which the attack strain was compared. The two reference strains that appear identical to the attack strain most likely originated at the US Army Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases at Fort Detrick (USAMRIID), Maryland.

The new work also shows that substantial genetic differences can emerge in two samples of an anthrax culture separated for only three years. This means the attacker's anthrax was not separated from its ancestors at USAMRIID for many generations.'

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2265

Thanks for responding and correcting my post. I am relatively new to researching this matter, but I think it is one of the most important matters to investigate, and we must consider it when looking into the possibility of losing our government. There are lots of bunk theories about 9/11 being an inside job and what not, but I think this is legitimate evidence of something mischievous originating from either within our government itself, or from someone loyal to it. I do think that whomever did it, wasn't exactly taking orders from the chain of command. It has probably more in common with the scenario behind the leaking of Valerie Plame.

[bananas]

121. Welcome to DU

and thanks for the warning about the next 90 days!
:hi:

[EnricoFermi]

124. Be sure to note that the last part was anecdotal

I would appreciate anyone else's theory, whether anecdotal or not.

I have taken precautionary measures, but not to an extreme. I think we are all somewhat uneasy these days with what is going on. Something is bound to happen at some point, and now would be the worst time in the history of our government, given the legislation and infrastructure that has to have been intentional. Crazy conspiracy theories need to be filtered through because even Michael Ruppert of fromthewilderness.com had some good points. Not everything is a conspiracy, but some things are. People have died, the CIA and Pentagon have and continue to do more and more deplorable things, and little to no investigation has been carried out successfully.

I firmly believe that we are in the the 11th hour. What nearly happened in 1933 is going to happen again, but not in the same manner. If it does, we should be prepared. We will have to be creative and industrious in our approach, while the rest of the country will likely be either unaware and blinded by patriotism like they were in after 2001.

[GreenTea]

30. Get it right....Targeted by the REPBLICANS!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. Please tell me who was in control of the WH and House of Representaives when this happened?

????????


REPUKES WERE. After 911 they controlled everything with their fearmongering. Everyone knows it was the repukes. That should go without saying.


It was never ending BULLSHIT. That's why the Dems lost the Senate in the 2002 Midterm election.

The REPUKES CONTROLLED THE MESSAGE.....with their propaganda networks: FAUX NEWS, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, and ABC.

It only got WORSE after they took the Senate and planned to illegally invade Iraq. Then the propaganda was REALLY ramped up.

[AndyA]

5. Sickening.

If we didn't have so many crooks in politics, we could actually have a really great country.

But apparently it's getting harder and harder to find even one good Apple out of the whole bunch. :(

[rudy23]

6. They were threatened to pass the wiretapping bill, too

Just because someone else's attack was referenced, doesn't mean they weren't threatened with an attack. There's a name for that, starts with a T and ends with an errorism...

[mikelgb]

8. does it equal 4 or 5?

[LSK]

9. 3.1214

[mikelgb]

11. so not quite pi?

[LSK]

16. its fuzzy math

[wryter2000]

12. Yum

I'll have a slice of that pi.

[snappyturtle]

14. This is very troubling. What do we do? n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. If Daschle and Leahy won't come forward with what they know

how could WE do anything? I think they both not only received the Anthrax from the Government, but it was followed up with..."This could very easily happen to your family." There HAS TO BE more of a reason than their own safety being at risk for them to keep quiet. Maybe the illegal wiretap program gave the Gov. some info they don't want released? Who knows what else they've been threatened with? With all the illegal programs that have been used...it could be anything really, but I do believe they have been threatened verbally and with the Anthrax.

[snappyturtle]

126. I don't think it's only Daschle and Leahy that have been threatened.

The fear of threats becoming reality explains the spineless nature of congress critters.

[KoKo]

17. Bush got most of his appointments through when we had Majority with Jeffords switch....

and we just thought they were "keeping their powder dry"....had a strategy......

[spinbaby]

18. And another thing

I've heard that the anthrax letters were mailed on or about September 11.

[LSK]

20. started on September 18 according to wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrax_attacks

[eridani]

66. No, the White House minions started taking Cipro about then n/t

[Parche]

22. Anthrax

Yes and the 'culprits' (CIA) have never been found.........:hi:

[bvar22]

27. There is only ONE way to deal with Extortion & Blackmail

Go Public!

If you are ever the victim of a blackmailer...GO PUBLIC no matter how embarrassing. Come Clean and EXPOSE the Blackmailers. That is the ONLY way to turn the tables. There will be some initial TEMPORARY pain that will soon fade and in some cases turn to respect. This will be far better than the lingering pain, fear of exposure, and the daily anxiety of trying to keep hidden. Rollin belly up only begs for more.

The only cure for Extortion is to GO PUBLIC. Expose the thugs and use all public resources to bring them to justice. Rolling belly up (the Dems) only guarantees more threats.

In another thread yesterday that was speculating on the possibility that the Dems had been threatened by Republicans with,
"If you don't pass Bush*s FISA and we are hit again, we will blame you."

The ONLY good response:
"We have your threat on record and will publish it today. If we are hit again, everybody will know YOU are behind it"

[in_cog_ni_to]

50. WHY HAVEN'T THEY DONE THAT? It seems so logical, yet they continue

to dance for these thugs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. When you are in the middle of it

this clarity of vision is clouded by fear

[bvar22]

59. There is also the "Battered Wife Syndrome"

The Democrats have been submissive for so long that it has become their natural reaction to just roll belly up. Its all they know.

In all fairness, some Democrats FIGHT, but the Party has become so infested with undercover Republicans (DLC/New Dems) that any effective opposition to the NeoCon/Corporate agenda is impossible.


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. I'd say Helsinky is more apropriate in this case

but same dif, they are craven and they are scared.

[frogcycle]

103. absolutely

unless whatever it is carries an immediate death penalty, you are better off just exposing it yourself and taking your lumps.

You might lose your job, your marriage, your reputation, but you can immediately start rebuilding.

And as you say - the probable consequences if you go public yourself are bound to be less than if the blackmailer exposes you.

The hope that you can muddle along without being exposed is selfish - it says you are willing to do things you don't approve of, that perhaps will hurt those you care about - or your country - to save your own skin.

We need a Patrick Henry or two, if this scenario is valid.

[broadcaster]

28. I heard Hartmann mention this...very interesting..

especiallly given that the substance used was said to have been only
possible to develop in a high grade government lab.

My 'Chertoff-gut feel' tells me that these men were definitely
threatened and I believe others were too, and this has had a lasting
effect upon what we're seeing now from Congress.

[yodermon]

29. The Dems are "spineless" because they fear for their lives.

Ask mr. wellstone.

This is why I believe that it really is game over, we've lost, and we are rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
sorry for the optimistic post.

[Octafish]

68. They can't kill us all.

But, they will try.

[Virginia Dare]

97. Maybe that's why nobody will expose them...

John Kerry certainly would have known about this in 2004, why didn't he say anything? Perhaps he was worried about what they actually might do if he did...:shrug: They are sick monsters, that's for sure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I got this put together over three years ago

in a very much off the record talk with a US Senator

Yep, he confirmed this

And no, they don't want to come out and say it

I remember telling him, time for you guys, all of you, to come out into the media and speak out

His response

What media?

They have some more access these days, but I am sure they are still frightened

Me... I have even told Pelosi over a letter, that the kids in Iraq are afraid to go over the wire, for their sake it is time to do what is right.

Oh and whatever they have on them... if they come out and tell us all... the power of the scandal goes away

And yes, in my view, they are cowards, who do not know how to handle this

[Virginia Dare]

34. Same reason that they keep so many other "secrets" from the public..

The truth has never been fully revealed about:

The JFK Assassination

Bush's coup in 2000

9/11

They simply don't want to take the country down that road, well sooner or later, we're going to HAVE to go down that road...

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Well this country will need a truth and reconciliation

commision sooner or later

But that is not what I mean

They are physically and utterly afraid of the consequences if they go public

Not from us

But from those who hold the sword of damocles over them

There are many things I can tell about this, but one of them is lack of courage and lack of character

And why every dem that goes into the cesspool that is DC seems to be overtaken by the body snatchers

[Virginia Dare]

39. But I don't think they're afraid for their personal safety..

I don't believe that John Kerry or Al Gore lack courage or character. I think there's a lot more to it than that. Al Gore even mentioned not wanting to take the country down the path of fighting for the election. Things can escalate rather quickly in these situations, and I just think that none of them are prepared to take that responsibility in leading one group of citizens against another.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. What gore told you was that at that point

after the USSC ruled, was insurrection

That is what he said

And he might have lacked the courage, but mostly what he lacked were citizens willing to follow

We are also as responsible for this

Part of the fear these guys have, is not knowing whether we, as in the American People, not the few here on DU, will follow and will accept what is going on is as nefarious as it is

I have had the privilidge to talk to a US Senator on this, quite off the record, over a cup of coffee. I've also talked, quite off the record, with a State legislator over these issues and the USPA... and I am proud to say that those efforts led to that state basically passing a we will not enforce the USPA in this state act. Was it symbolic? You betcha, but that is what conversation led to

There are things going in the corridors of power that have scared these folks quite a bit, as in a lot... to the point of silence

And as a historian someday I will be able to document the fall into the dark night that is surely comming

[Virginia Dare]

60. I'm glad somebody will, I look forward to it..

the documentation of course, not the dark night.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. I know

and most americans have no idea what is comming down the pike

[Virginia Dare]

94. Oh shit, nadinb..

just promise us that we'll know the names of those who ruined our country, although I suspect we already do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. Oh it is a case of rounding the usual suspects

truly

[TankLV]

93. And that is were Gore was terribly WRONG.

We SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE COUNTRY DOWN THAT PATH - ESPECIALLY "that path"...

[Virginia Dare]

98. Agreed, 100%...

he probably realizes that now too.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

40. I still remember Bush's SOTU this year, when he said that he had spoken to many of the Democratic

majority personally...the expression on his face communicated menace, not conciliation. MKJ

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. There you go

[satya]

37. They could take this to the Real News Network (no corp sponsors).

http://therealnews.com/web/index.php

Or the foreign press ...

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. Maybe they should contact KEITH OLBERMANN? He would LOVE this story

and would kick some ass with it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. I am betting they are MORE afraid, not less

and somehow I doubt Keith would carry the story

No, it is not Keith, it is his parent company, GE, we bring good wars to life

[TankLV]

92. And too many thought Ross Perot was crazy when HE came forward back in the 90's

Some things never change...

[tanyev]

128. The one thing that leaped out at me when I finally read "All The President's Men"

not too long ago was that one of the commonest campaign dirty tricks was to follow all of the competition and sometimes their families. They didn't care if they were seen, either. The goal was not necessarily to find any dirt on the competition, but simply to intimidate them. That's when I realized that Ross probably was telling the truth and that the media was already under corporate control in 1992.

[corbett]

32. Wow! Great Point!

Even if they were scared stiff, though, they were wrong not to kill that horrible legislation! I sympathize but have difficulty believing that they didn't know how bad it was and forgot that it was written BEFORE September, 2001.

[defendandprotect]

41. Anthrax came from a military lab, supposedly. Shut down Congress for three months --

when we should have been investigating 9/11.

And, presumably, Bin Laden and the terrorists made all of that happen-- !!!!

B.S.

[LaPera]

42. And consider...Bush's illegal wiretapping came up with many to blackmailand to get what they want...

And then they become, as we call them "spineless" & ineffectual Democrats, when BushCo has them by the balls or clit (of course we'll never know this, unless they rock BushCo's boat, then it will be "leaked" by BushCo).

We ALL have our weaknesses...and Bushco will exploit them all, for their goals.

Nothing is more valuable than knowing ones information, secrets and plans.

BushCo listens and reads all Dem's information, strategy and plans...would you expect anything less?

Who believes for a moment these Bush criminals haven't been listening to the Dem's since (or even before) the republican swine took office?

Sure there is lots of blackmail going on that we know nothing about, and it effects us ALL...

They are ALWAYS listening, this is going on 24/7 - at this very moment...We should of all learned this a long time ago from J. Edgar & his FBI!

[CanonRay]

52. Gee, funny the FBI can't solve this one.

What a coincidence!:sarcasm:

[Buck Rabbit]

53. Why would they have to be intimidated to not stop a bill they supported?

The Patriot Act bill passed 98-1. Leahy and Daschle both supported it and voted for it. Leahy, Biden, Clinton and a score of others were Co-sponsors of S1510. Why send them Anthrax to intimidate them into doing something they were going to do willingly?

[LSK]

56. how do you know they did it willingly???

Also how many times has it been said that they did not read the bill?

[Buck Rabbit]

58. I don't know. Except it seems odd a co-sponsor would have to

be attacked with anthrax to be forced to pass along a bill he co-sponsored in the first place and everyone else in the Senate supported. Did they send anthrax to everyone except Russ Feingold?

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Watch F 911

they didn't read the bill

[followthemoney]

54. Watch what you say or you may get the Tillman treatment.

[Babsbrain]

55. Interesting that Russ Feingold was the only Senator voting NO

on the Patriot Act. Sen Landrieu of Louisiana didn't vote.

I think all the pieces are coming to a head. It's taken six years but Americans are waking up.

[seemslikeadream]

57. You should have spent more time in the dungeon

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. I'm shocked this has not ended up there

:-)

[LSK]

70. things are becoming more and more accepted

2 years ago this would have tinfoil flames all over it. Have yet to see one now.

Also keep in mind that Hartmann said this on air to millions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. True, I only heard it from a US Senator

what would he know?

:-)

And I have repeated that here many a times

[loudsue]

101. True that. And I'm really curious ....

Given what you've learned, what do you see happening in the future? Your background, education and conversations with elected officials must give you at least a hint of what may come in the future.

What do you foresee?

:kick:

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. What I foresee is pain, a dark night and a civil war

I also do not foresee this country surviving this

But I am very negative.

What is the case is that over the years, not by looking for it, (except after Katrina)
I have had the honor to "meet" some of these people. And over the years, and as a student of history, I have lost more and more hope that this can be fixed and go to a pre-2000 situation

And by the way, I hope I am wrong.

Civil wars are never civil and I am aware fully of the consequences

But at this time... all we have is kabuki theater

[RainDog]

132. fundie madness

I'm no historian, but I find it's a horrible synchronicity that fundie groups from three different religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) are fomenting war both in their own nations and in others. Or maybe it's no synchronicity at all.

I don't think Hitler could have been as powerful as he was without the genuine threat of Bolshevism in Germany after WWI. It was a specific moment in time with forces coalescing...I mean, Marxism was new, the defeat of Germany was "new" and their attempts at democracy were "new."

Now, it's like the old is making a final gasp (at least I hope it's final) and medieval mindsets are fighting one another. That's simplistic, I know, considering the Muslim Brotherhood was anti-imperialist early on when there was no other sustainable way to resist the British (and American) imperialism in their lands. But medievalism didn't spring from the earth without any history preceeding it...it's hard to imagine the cloak of superstition that overcame greek and roman philosophy and govt. But Rome brought its fall upon itself and the whole western world suffered the consequences. The irony now, of course, is that the resuicitation of the west was brought about my muslims bringing education back to western europe.

rambling, but I think the divisions in this country are so great right now that I don't know how they can be breached. The years of hate propaganda from rightwing radio have so pentrated some people's world view, combined with the ahistorical apocalyptic fundie movement here... I used to be "live and let live" or simply ignore the stupidity. but since 2000, that's no longer possible, imo, for any thinking person in this country. Even Gingrich, as noted here, said America is now like our pre-Civil War past...and he's trying to tone down the right wing hate and blame. Funny, considering these are the people he helped bring to power. But it is the right thing for him to do, so I appreciate the effort. I hope he's successful in making people like Coulter and O'Reilly shameful to the republicans.

If they wanted to, the republicans could bring down this extremist wing of their party right now. All they have to do is split off and run as conservatives and not neo-cons and talibornagains. It wouldn't be fun for them, but it's the honorable thing to do.

[Jim Sagle]

72. Even if it doesn't, we might.

BTW, you really should build a thread with your posts on this one. It would be the thread of the millenium.

[noise]

74. The threat theory is a no go

They should resign if truly threatened (and unwilling to go public). No way in hell is it acceptable to succumb to threats when soldiers are risking their lives in Afghanistan and Iraq. Same with 9/11 victims. To think members of Congress betrayed the victims of 9/11 (including the sick rescue workers) because they were threatened is nauseating.

I haven't seen any indication of threat (not that I have any expertise in such observation). One would think eventually there would have been public expression of anxiety/fear. I have looked closely through the years and haven't seen it.

[noise]

76. Chris Floyd's thoughts after the FISA vote

The reader also pointed me to a comment they'd left on Glenn Greenwald's takedown of the vote: "It doesn't take any courage to do what you want to do. Just the opposite. They WANT all these things, but can hardly reveal that to their often sincere but easy-to-dupe followers, so they hide behind the 'we were threatened, Bush made us do it, we're spineless, and we don't want to look weak,' meme. They cop a plea to the lesser charge but the truth is, tragically, far more dark."

I think that's exactly right. They cop to cowardice to cover up complicity. As I said in the previous post, the Democratic elite are spawned by the same corrupt system that produces the Republican leadership.

Is the threat theory a rationalization to avoid consideration of the possibility that the political system is thoroughly corrupt?

[LSK]

78. no, complicity makes no sense

Considering that they are not going to the FISA court because they are spying FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES, saying they are complicit is saying they are allowing themselves to be spied upon. Are they that stupid to be willingly allowed to be spyed on????

[noise]

80. I would guess

Bush Co. has been spying on political opposition since Inauguration.

I don't know why Congress tolerates it. I just have guesses.

[loudsue]

102. My guess is, with poppy bush's CIA connections, they were spying

BEFORE the inauguration.

Just a guess.

:kick:

[Virginian]

77. I don't think it was as much a threat as an incentive

What did we need the patriot act for if we already "knew" who did 9/11?
They already had bin Laden's cell phone number and could easily track him (until someone spilled those beans.)

What they needed was an anonymous terrorist. They also wanted to give Daschle and Leahy an incentive for wanting to track down an anonymous terrorist. They wanted them angry enough to want to catch the "bad guys".

The more I think about it, the more Rovian it sounds.
Ft. Detrick is very close to Camp David.
Where was Cheney's undisclosed location? Was he anywhere near NJ where the letters were mailed?

[marmar]

79. Yup. A wee bit too coincidental por moi.....

And Thom's not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch of the imagination, but he's very suspect of the anthrax incidents and the complete disappearance of any investigation.
Someone needs to check out Dick's medicine cabinet.

[calimary]

84. Sounds like a big fat, loud, bombastic, red-white-n-blue BINGO to me.

Gee... isn't it funny... Hmmm... Coincidence? I think NOT.

[Coes]

85. "dump daschle"

"dump daschle", that was the title of some advertisement on the Weekly Standard :puke: website back then.

One more adversary of the neocons that was taken care off.

[rosesaylavee]

86. ...

:wow:

Hadn't put it together that way either. Thanks for posting.

[Disturbed]

87. "Bush Co. has been spying on political opposition

since Inauguration."

I think that the spying has covered Repugs, political activists & certain members of the Media, as well.

[rosesaylavee]

88. No doubt in my mind on that at all.

Unfortunately I put nothing past these criminals. I hope to see them punished one day.

[goaman]

90. wow

damn .....I can see now..that make sense....republicans will stop at nothing

[rainy]

91. Plus, remember that right before bush brought up this vote terrorist warnings

were issued for Aug and especially to Congress. Now come on. The "chatter" is that congress might be hit? And we are discussing if the Dems felt threatened? Of course they did. They were directly threatened.

[Virginia Dare]

99. That's exactly right, but I don't think this was ever really reported in the MSM..

it made news locally in Washington, just because everybody could see the ramped up paranoia around the Capitol. There were all sorts of bullshit games being played. Trent Lott calling for Congress to shut down, and then Tom Davis coming out and saying he had seen nothing that would indicate a specific threat to the Capitol (his constituents are largely Federal employees). It was total Kabuki theatre.

[nuxvomica]

100. I've been saying that from the get-go

And I thought that since Ashcroft benefited from the attacks, there should've been an independent counsel investigating them. That's not to say that Ashcroft was responsible but it's just proper to eliminate beneficiaries of a crime from its investigation.

It's also interesting that the most intel-savvy Democratic member of the "gang of eight" at the time of the IWR vote -- Sen. Graham -- cast one of the few votes against it. He couldn't tell others what he knew but they should've taken a cue from his vote.

[1620rock]

104. Hi agent Mike, interesting reading eh?

[redqueen]

105. I read this yesterday,

talked to my sister about it last night.

I can't think about it too long... I find it too demoralizing. I know we face seemingly insurmountable obstacles, but it really doesn't help me, personally, to dwell on them.

[frogcycle]

112. not attacking you personally, but

that is exactly what they are counting on everyone to say

consider - three planes were flown into buildings. We don't know what, if anything, their passengers did to try to prevent it.

For the fourth plane, we know that the passengers learned via cellphone of how extreme the circumstances were, and that some of them took drastic action in attempt to stop it.

Foreknowledge, with sufficient evidence to cause large numbers of people truly to believe it is real, is what it will take to stop this. Otherwise, we're all like the frog in the boiling water.

We desperately need someone to somehow force their hand prematurely, get them to show unequivocably what they are up to before they are ready to seal the deal. THEN the masses may rise up and stop it. But unfortunately no amount of talk will get people into the streets without that event.

Ironic - THEY need another terrist attack to make sure we are all sheep; WE need another terrist attack (by them) to make sure we are not!

[redqueen]

113. what drastic action should we take, though?

am i off the hook till the next MIHOP? :P

[frogcycle]

133. wish to hell I knew

I have a pitchfork - should I keep it at the ready for when we storm the Bastille?

[femrap]

106. I've been saying this for a long time.....

And that's probably why they are NOT acting as we would like them to. They're afraid that people in their offices will be killed.

Oh and remember....MSM was sent Anthrax as well!!!!!

[B Calm]

107. but... there hasn't been any terror attacks after 9-11...

[Virginia Dare]

119. The last seven years in effect has been one long terrorist attack..n/t

[frogcycle]

108. believe it

and more

I just typed a long missive and got the "server error" message and it went poof. I hate it when that happens!

Anyway, my conclusion was that we are in a much bigger struggle than most realize. It is like the Star Wars movies - we are fighting the Dark Side of the Force, who believe in global domination, elimination of the middle class, subjugation of the masses to server the few.

Rove didn't start it; Nixon didn't start it, Joe McCarthy didn't start it.It is part of a continuum that goes back in our country to the period before the Constitution was ratified, and globally as far back as ancient Greece or before.

Those who believe government's role should be only fighting wars and policing the masses vs those who believe government's role should be to provide for the common good.

It all comes down to that. The cabal of elitists want to establish autocratic rule and a global economy analogous to medieval Europe. They will be the nobility, and everyone else will be the serfs. It is the Dark Side of the Force vs the Good Side.

No tinfoil hats needed - they mean business and while some of the specific conspiracy theories may be off the mark, there are none too evil for them to have considered and tried if they thought they could pull it off. They would happily see the Great Experiment fail, the US economy fail, the entire world order change radically. As long as they believe they will be on the Death Star, they have no compunctions about anything!

[RainDog]

110. "econ" terrorism can also harm

Paul Thompson's 9-11 timeline site at cooperative research has an entry about the short trading on stocks before the attacks. the guy with the degree from the London School of Economics, who name escapes me at this moment, was thought to have planned to finance the attack with the short trades.

When Wall Street shutdown, they couldn't call -- or else they sold early when others were also trying to make some money.

[Virginia Dare]

118. Great point..

economic and or cyber terrorism can do as much harm, if not more, than bombs.

[Judi Lynn]

111. Thanks for passing on what Thom Hartmann said. It's important. n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

122. Kick! eom

[SpiralHawk]

123. "Smirk, smirk, smirk" - Commander AWOL

"Sounds like the kind of perverted crime that could only be perpetrated by, say, an Evil Doing Connecticut Preppy Deserter who belonged to an occult cabal of self-designated 'elites' or something really queer like that. Smirk, smirk, smirk."

- Commander AWOL

[spanone]

127. yea, that anthrax feller must be hangin' with osama somewhere over the rainbow

it boggles the imagination