Is there any question anymore that DINOs need to get out of the Democratic party?

[mudesi]

This is what happens when you vote for the DINO in a primary instead of a liberal. Stop going for who is "electable" (A term invented by the mainstream media, and one that the American people regularly fall for), and vote for the liberal to represent you. People like Dennis Kucinich, not Hillary Clinton.

I understand that once all is said and done, it is imperative to vote for the Democrat lest the Republican takes power, but if the Democrat is nothing more than a Republican in disguise, what is the point?

I don't know all the candidates for Congress, but I do know the candidates for the upcoming presidential election. There is one who is a liberal in every sense of the word. His name is Dennis Kucinich.

Vote for him. And vote for the liberals in every other Democratic primary election. If it's not possible to put a third party in power, then the only other option is to put liberals in the Democratic party. It is the only way to take the country back.

[Buzz Clik]

1. It's not voting on election day when that occurs.

If you want liberal Democrats in Congress, get the liberals to run and win in the primaries. Grassroots.

Although I certainly sympathize with you about Kucinich, there really is no hope for him in the general election.

[mudesi]

3. No hope

Why? Because Bill O'Reilly says so?

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

He can win if everybody votes for him.

[Buzz Clik]

O'Reilly?

LOL!

Nevermind.

[bellasgrams]

39. This is America

Dennis is your choice, so vote for him. He certainly is not mine. I prefer Richardson and/or Clinton. Either one. Dennis is a little too weird for me.

[warren pease]

43. What's not to like?

Kucinich is the only candidate to advocate impeachment NOW, single-payer universal health care NOW, getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan NOW, denying funds for any military engagement with Iran, impoverishing the Pentagon for a change and using the money to fund sustainable energy research, ending the fictitious "war on terror" and going after the actual terrorists using proven police methods rather than invading armies, and reversing both patriot acts and the military commissions act NOW.

These are the positions of a classic progressive Democrat, which is probably why they're unrecognizable in today's wingnut-dominated political landscape. Is there anything in that list that seems "a little too weird" for you? If so, which ones?


wp

[antigop]

59. He also wants to cancel NAFTA and pull out of the WTO n/t

[DutchLiberal]

50. Yeah, voting against the Iraq War, against the Military Commissions Act, against the Patriot Act

...IS very weird.

However, voting FOR them and thereby enabling Bush in his search for a dictatorial reign over the US (and the rest of the world), like Hillary did, is NOT weird...

[Morereason]

64. Perfect example of why I am concerned America will never rise out of this

Even many on these boards do not understand the depth of America's problems, We have serious cultural issues that are killing us, not just political.

The average American has just one friend.......

Americans, upon meeting someone, are more likely to judge them by the color or placement of their teeth, than the size of their heart!

Americans confuse "freedom" with material wealth...

Americans are sickly narsicistic and it is driving our society to be more and more antisocial


I am not surprised to see some on this board who think of someone who is peaceful, loving, strives for decency, abhors violence, as someone they view as "weird". Because it is what we have been taught.

I may not vote for Kucinich in the primaries, but only because I also believe that Edwards, being currently more electable, is also talking serious values change, and may have a better chance.

[DutchLiberal]

70. Doesn't it bother you that Edwards voted for the War?

I'm not attacking you, just asking. I'm curious. :)

[Madspirit]

81. "Weird"

Yeah it's true. Having actual real liberal principles is quite strange these days.

He has my vote in the primary. Kucinich is THE one with principles.
Lee

[LWolf]

58. If there is no hope it is because

mainstream democrats say so, or that mainstream democrats actually prefer centrist candidates. The Democratic Party has distanced itself from classic liberal democrats.

Personally, I agree with your points in the OP. You will find that most Democrats do not. Some have relabeled themselves "progressive" in an effort to shed the dreaded "liberal" label. Some were never liberal to begin with. The party plays with the labels "liberal" and "progressive," but when it comes time to vote, the votes are cast for centrists, even by many self-proclaimed "liberals."

Sadly, most Democrats aren't liberal enough to vote for a classic liberal candidate. Instead, they will pour all their energy into finding ways to label their centrists choices "liberal" and "progressive." The Republicans aren't the only party to play games with orwellian labels.

The "political compass" illustrates this quite clearly. Here's where the makers place our current crop of republican and democratic candidates:



All but DK and Gravel are to the right of center, with John Edwards coming closest to the center. The following <snip> suggests that, in the larger picture, the U.S. is more right-wing as a whole than European countries.

<snip>

Please keep in mind that The Political Compass is a universal tool, reflecting the full spectrum of political thought, and applicable to all democracies. US politics are generally fought within a more confined space. While in mainstream America, Clinton, for example, may be seen as left leaning, in the overall political landscape, she is a moderate conservative. Someone like Kucinich, while seen by his severest opponents as an extreme left winger, would qualify as a typical social democrat in a European context.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2007

For the record, on this grid I'm a leftist libertarian, falling further to the south/left than Kucinich and Gravel, about as far left as Gandhi, but a little further south.

[whistle]

2. Is there a list of DINOs anywhere?

[radfringe]

7. Just go to the House and Senate websites

you can identify them by the "D" after their names

[Zodiak]

10. Here are today's DINOs

Lincoln (D) - DLC
Pryor (D) - DLC
Feinstein (D) - DLC
Salazar (D) - DLC
Carper (D) - DLC
Nelson (D) - DLC
Inouye (D) - DLC
Bayh (D) - DLC
Landrieu (D) - DLC
Mikulski (D)
Klobuchar (D) - new seantor DSCC's chosen candidate.
McCaskill (D) - new senator Vice-chair of the Third Way
Nelson (D) - DLC
Conrad (D) - DLC
Casey (D) - new senator DSCC chosen candidate
Webb (D) - new senator DSSC chose candidate


Most of them are repeat offenders that we have swallowed excuses from for many years. And they fly under the rader.

[Dr.Phool]

18. Yeah, my DINO Nelson, the one in Florida is having a town hall meeting.

I'm not even going to bother to attend. The last time he was here, I was so pissed off at him, that I couldn't talk straight.

He's even worse now, with another 5-1/2 years to go. If I went, I'd be dragged out in handcuffs.

[ChiciB1]

55. I Feel The Same Way... But There Wasn't Anyone Else To Vote For!

I mean Cruella was my Representative for two terms so even though I had written several rather denigrating letters to Nelson, I was forced to vote for him!

He SUCKS, and he still sends me emails!! He won't even accept the run of the mill petitions that go around all the time! You either call him or write him a letter!

[Zorra]

25. ELEVEN out of SIXTEEN are DLC! The DLC has an anti-democratic,

pro-corporate governance agenda.

We need them out of our party, and out of our government, or we will never regain our democracy.

[MonkeyFunk]

30. And in those states

the choice is often between a moderate/conservative Democrat or a Republican.

we simply aren't going to get liberal democrats elected in every state and district in the country - it's not realistic.

[pnwmom]

34. By the DLC measure, Bill Clinton is a DINO.

Since he was one of the founders.

Long Live DINO's.

[ChiciB1]

57. He's Always Been To The Right Of Me... I ALWAYS Knew That, Still

I did think he was so much better than some. He used to have it going "hands down" but I've had some doubts since his love fest with BUSH-BOT ONE!!

[pnwmom]

68. All we know about

his "love fest" with Bush Sr is what we get from the press.

I bet the only people more bothered than Dems by Clinton's acquaintance with Bush Sr. . . . is Bush Jr. Hah!

Even his father knows which one was the successful President, and it wasn't the shrub.

[tigereye]

40. we had to get Santorum out of there and Casey was who could win...

sadly our state is not that liberal between Philly and Pittsburgh...

I do not agree that he is a DINO, though. It is very common here to have somewhat socially conservative Dems who are have good labor support.

Personally I do not like the DINO label and think it is unfair.

And Feinstein? Really? You have several of our women Senators on that list and it troubles me to think that they are seen as DINOs as well.

[Hippo_Tron]

41. Those are the Senators who voted for the FISA bill giving Bush waratnelss wiretapping powers

I understand what the red state dems were thinking. I have no earthly idea what Mikulski, Klobuchar, Carper, and Feinstein were thinking.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. I Thought Jim Webb Was One Of The Good Guys

eom

[cosmik debris]

4. So here is my choice

Do I vote for a DINO or a radical reactionary right wing republican.

Two choices. Not "good vs. evil", but "some evil vs. lots of evil".

Say what you will, I'm going to vote for the DINO.

[mudesi]

5. I'm talking about the PRIMARIES

If you have choice between a liberal and a DINO, would you choose the DINO? If so, why?

[cosmik debris]

8. I don't have that choice

There are no liberals that can raise the 5 million dollars necessary to run a congressional campaign. My DINO has the support of the big banking industry and the big pharmaceutical industry among others as well as the military industrial complex. He has a lock on the fund raising. None of the potential candidates would throw away their career to sacrifice themselves for the pure ideology.

[mudesi]

12. Your subject line says it all!

Of course you have the choice! You are the voter, not the pharmaceutical industry, not the banking industry, not the military industrial complex.

If people would just vote for the liberal (unless there really isn't any liberal running at all, which is hard to believe, though I do see you're from Texas...) instead of voting for who the commercials and the media tells them to vote for, the liberal will win.

Your above post is amazing to me. You are going to vote for the person who gets the most money from huge corporations. Do you think this person will be representing you?

[cosmik debris]

19. You live in a world that is completely alien to me.

It takes $5 million to run for congress. I don't have it. I can't get it. Running for congress would just be an exercise in self-sacrifice. I don't know anyone who feels differently. If you want to take on Chet Edwards, come on down. And bring a truck load of cash.

[TreasonousBastard]

15. Look at Connecticut and see just how well

that strategy worked.

[Individualist]

6. The only thing worse than a neocon is a neocon enabler.

[cosmik debris]

9. Are you saying

that I should vote for the radical reactionary right wing republican?

[Individualist]

14. Where did I tell you who you should vote for?

Damn the DLC!

This is why the DLC is dangerous. For all their claims of supposedly wanting to help Democrats, they employ people like Marshall Wittman who specifically try to undermine the Democratic Party, even if it means he has to publicly defecate out the most rank and easily-debunkable lies. They reguarly give credence to the right wing's agenda and its worst, most unsupportable lies. They are the real force that tries to make sure this country is a one party state and that Democrats never really challenge the Republicans in a serious way.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/why-the-dlc-is-so-dangero_b_13640.html

Without a doubt, the DLC is the most fundamentalist organization within the caucus, the most ideologically rigid, and the most destructive to the progressive cause.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/5/24/1712/23448

[cosmik debris]

17. You didn't tell me that's why I asked for your advice.

How do you think I should vote?

[Individualist]

20. I DON'T tell people how they should vote,

and NO ONE is going to tell me how to vote. Any rational person can access information about candidates, listen to what they say, see what they've done and vote accordingly.

[cosmik debris]

23. Your implication was very clear.

A neocon enabler is worse than a neocon. Therefore, it seems to reason that you would prefer to vote for the neocon republican than to vote for the DINO. I'll respect that, but it certainly seems misguided to me.

[Individualist]

26. BULLSHIT!

I'm voting for Kucinich. You've just proven the old axion about "assume". The only person who's misguided is YOU, and I'm not buying what you're trying to sell.

[cosmik debris]

29. Here is your quote

"The only thing worse than a neocon is a neocon enabler."

Would you like to take that back now?

Or do you really think it is better to vote for a republican than a DINO?

[Individualist]

31. What part of "I'm not buying what you're trying to sell" do you not understand?

Now run along and play your stupid games with someone else. I'll waste no more time on you.

[cosmik debris]

32. You're caught between a rock and a hard place.

You should never have made that statement that I quoted. People might take you seriously and vote for the republican. Or even worse, they might think YOU voted for a republican. :)

[OzarkDem]

13. Better idea

Start now to recruit another Dem candidate (or do it yourself) to run against the DINO candidate in the next primary. No dilemma, a real choice between a Dem and a Repub next time.

[OzarkDem]

11. They can't win against GOP'ers anymore

They're too much like them to give voters a real choice. DLC candidates have done very poorly the last few elections.

They might as well become GOP'ers and allow Dems to run their own candidates.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. Well, they're not going anywhere any time soon, so...

since we're stuck with them, what's Plan B?

[cosmik debris]

21. Plan B

Tantrums!

[OzarkDem]

22. Put the pressure on like the lobbyists do

Call and let the DCCC and the DSCC know that you're not giving them a cent until they run better candidates in 2008.

Call your DINO legislator and let them know you are working to recruit and fund a candidate to run against them in the next primary. Call your local and state Dem parties and let them know you don't want the DINO anymore and that you're working to defeat them in the next primary.

Use grassroots activism to change the system. Its all we have.

[stray cat]

24. Those states should elect republicans instead.

Moderate states tend to elect moderates or republicans - We would sure be better off if the republicans were in power. Purity in stances beats power - thats why repubs often end up in charge. They are smart enought to beet the dems then worry about purity.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. They also squeeze purity out of their elected officials

The Republican leadership actually threatens their Representatives and Senators with primary challenges in order to get them to vote party line.

And if the leadership doesn't do it, they have very well financed groups like the Club For Growth that will finance primary challenges against the "RINOs".

[davidwparker]

27. If my candidate doesn't get through the primaries, I'm voting for Dennis.

[many a good man]

28. A majority of the minority and a minority of the majority

is all it takes to ruin a once pretty much good country.

[pnwmom]

33. Oh, you mean "DINO's" like Maria Cantwell and Hillary Clinton?

Who were among the 27 Democratic Senators (along with Obama) who voted AGAINST the changes in the FISA law?

Sorry, but if you take all the DINO's (real and imagined) out of the Democratic party, you lose their voters, too. We can't win solely on our Kucinich voters. We need a candidate with broader appeal.

[CanonRay]

35. Just sent Salazar a nasty-gram

It won't do any good. I give up on him. I can't wait for the State Assembly so I can boo him as loud as I can. Maybe I'll be in the front row again.

[DutchLiberal]

36. YES! Recommended! All vote for Kucinich!

:applause:

[LittleClarkie]

37. I'd rather vote for someone who's name people can remember

That said, I haven't decided yet. But if you're not at a certain level by now, I'm not going to take you that seriously.

[DutchLiberal]

38. People can't remember Kucinich's name? HUH???

:crazy:

[LittleClarkie]

44. How would you know if you're in the Netherlands whether or not

your average person in America knows who Kucinich is?

In 2004, when there were a ton of people running, I'd listen to people list off the candidates, and by the time they got to Braun and Kucinich they were faltering. Maybe he'll fare a bit better having been out there last time.

But I'm talking about the kinds of people who are going to vote in the general election.

[DutchLiberal]

48. No, I'm just not getting why you think Americans can't remember a name?

THAT'S just a weird thing to say.

[coalition_unwilling]

84. Kucinich was "out there" last time (2004). He stayed in the nominating

race right up until the convention. I switched from Dean to Kucinich in 2004 after the media torpedoes Dean in Iowa. I plan to work for Kucinich in the California Democratic primary this time around.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. i think you lack a long term memory, people said that gore was just like bush

and wanted to vote for nader. 7 years later, we are doing this dance again.

i agree kucinich is a great candidate but this rhetoric that HRC or OBama or Edwards is just a republican in disguise is just bullshit.

[DutchLiberal]

51. Then why did HRC enable Bush with everything he wanted to do?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. to survive politically, almost anyone with any ambition voted for the war bill

they had very little choice. i think blaming politicians for being humans is stupid. the political climate here was terrible post 911. would you want to be labeled a traitor?

[Forkboy]

56. The fear of being called a bad name shouldn't outweigh the responsibilities they have to the country

Of course they had a choice.Ambition is NOT more important that human lives,and not only do you say that their fear of being called a bad name was more important than human lives,you defend it.Your post describes true cowardice in it's purist form.Fuck doing what's right,we're too scared about looking bad.

Your post says so much about what is wrong with our Party.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. my posts point out how humans normally behave, we all say that we would not have done what hrc or

kerry did, mostly we are lying to ourselves.

[Forkboy]

61. Speak for yourself.

:shrug:

[DutchLiberal]

65. Kucinich wasn't afraid. So were some others. So you would cave in to demagogues just to save your

career??? People's lives were and are at stake! A vote for war is a vote for sending young people to a conflict in which there's a very high chance they might get killed. You do it only if it's absolutely necessary! You don't put other people's life at stake because of your career! That's what Republicans do! That's what Bush does! And if HRC did vote for the war to 'survive politically', she IS a Republican; she IS as bad as George Bush. And if she did vote for the war to not be blasted by Fox News (and other propaganda tools from which ironically she got a lot of money for her campaign), she's a coward too, and she doesn't belong in the White House!

Let's put somebody in the White House who will NOT put their careers above the lives of American's youth and above the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians.

Let's elect Dennis Kucinich!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

66. ok go ahead and try,

but even if all 100,000 voted for kucinich and he lost in the primaries. then what?

[DutchLiberal]

69. Why would we assume he would lose? And why are you ignoring what I said about HRC?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. i can read statistics. kucinich has run before, and he has lost, not by a small margin either

i dont buy these bush lite arguments in general, because i have heard them before, and historically they have been wrong.

i am sorry but as a student of psychology i know people say "in his/her position i would have taken the more moral stance' and mostly people are lying. i think most politicians voted for the war because they felt their hands were tied, i dont blame them for this. also that was many years ago, people forget that even had bush et al not mismanaged the war it wouldnt be such a disaster. it is still wrong to conquer a sovereign nation under false pretext's, still it would not be this disaster. i dont think kerry/hrc ever estimated that bush would make such a disaster of the war. this war is a republican mess, and this rhetoric sounds like the dems own this war, that is just not true

[DutchLiberal]

72. The Dems own this war as much as Repukes.

Because they put their careers above the lives of American soldiers and Iraqi citizens.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. ok then, we should take that attitude, declare all is lost and let the repubs win again

cos that worked out so well the first time.

[DutchLiberal]

74. No, we should acknowledge our mistakes, apologize for them, move on...

...and preferably, elect a candidate who did not vote for the war, whether it's Kucinich or Obama or Richardson... But we should not rewrite history and deny the Dems made this war possible.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

76. obama had no option to vote or not vote for the war. by the time he came into office

the war was already going badly.

kucinich will never win.

edwards, hrc and obama have a shot. whomever wins will be better than the repubs.

[DutchLiberal]

78. Who cares? At least he didn't vote for it. And the rest is MSM talking points, man.

"The media says he can't win, *therefore* I'm not gonna vote for him."

HUH??

[La Lioness Priyanka]

80. no man its not. its common sense, man!

[coalition_unwilling]

85. I was called a "traitor" but, you know what, the TRUTH always

prevails. I was also threatened with death and physically assaulted but you know what, the TRUTH always prevails.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

86. are you a politician?

[coalition_unwilling]

88. No, just a common working-class person. Point is, if I can weather

being called a "traitor" and enduring death threats and physical assaults, then surely our political class ought to be able to endure the same? Or am I expecting too much from our political class???

[struggle4progress]

46. Your theory is that it would be better if we ALWAYS lost?

[LittleClarkie]

47. Aye, we shall lose. But we shall be pure in our loss.

Isn't that better than sometimes winning with a bunch of blue dogs?

[struggle4progress]

54. Why, facing such a crisis, should we be content to be "pure losers"?

[LittleClarkie]

63. Oh hang on. Left this bit off

:sarcasm:

I was agreeing with you, actually.

[mudesi]

49. When they allow Bush to spy on you, or don't stop the Iraq war...

You're losing anyway...

[struggle4progress]

53. That much we agree upon. The practical issue, however, of how to get from

the current situation to a better one, requires something more than mere outrage at the situation. I can't see how refusing to caucus with those, who sometimes vote with us and sometimes vote against us, provides any meaningful relief

[Cha]

67. OT but..How come there aren't any

rinos in the republicon party? Only repubs and fascists?

But, the dems are teaming with dinos? Is there a zellout in the repuke party? A from, a reed, a moosesplat?

[followthemoney]

75. I' m no theist but what this man said applies to the "Democrats in name only"

The Lord Jesus Christ warned His followers, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep�s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves (Matt. 7:15)

[burythehatchet]

77. Why? How is your party anymore than it is theirs?

[MisterP]

87. well, they're trying their damndest to make it Bush's party

[SarahB]

79. Perhaps if THE PEOPLE followed our hearts and guts,

there would actually be some damned change once in awhile. I'm so fed up with the corporate-fed DINOs that the fucking media calls "left". I call bullshit!

[Madspirit]

82. k&r

Now THIS is an intelligent thread.

Thank-you.
Lee

[Madspirit]

83. Damn...it is too late to rec. sorry...but I can kick..n/t

[redqueen]

89. yup... good idea

:kick:

[Celeborn Skywalker]

90. I agree.

We need to get good solid liberals past the Democratic primaries. I will vote for Dennis Kucinich in the New Mexico primary.I don't necessarily mind Centrists in congress as long as they don't sell us out on anti-American principles such as eavesdropping, Corporations over People, pre-emptive war, etc. You can be a centrist without flushing our country down the toilet. I think BIll Richardson is an example of a good centrist. I also would have said Jim Webb, but he voted for the anti-American FISA bill.