"I single out the “impeach now” crowd in this category, and in particular Cindy Sheehan

[Decruiter]

and the chaotic “Summer of Love 2007″ fiasco which has done more harm to the antiwar movement than many realize.'

I am fully supportive of any process which seeks to raise awareness of the constitutional remedy of impeachment when faced with acts on the part of the president and vice president which meet the criteria set forth by Article Two, Section IV of the Constitution. In fact, I participated in a “Citizen’s Commission of Inquiry” facilitated by one of Sheehan’s current crop of advisers, David Swanson, as a witness before a mock jury examining the actions of the Bush administration as they related to the rule of law. I did so as part of a process intended to empower people through education and information gathering so that they might be better informed on matters they have a vested interest in, such as how they are governed by those elected to higher office. My statements were limited to issues pertaining to Iraq, and in particular the specifics of Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction as an excuse for war."

Thank you Scott Ritter.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/08/01/2898/

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Decruiter]

2. Careful dear one, where you dare to tread. Especially as a "newbie" at DU.

Careful.

[Richard Steele]

3. You got a link for that?

[Decruiter]

4. Yes I do. Thank you for asking.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/08/01/2898/

My heart breaks. I was in the ditch with Cindy the first day. I was with the Vets for Peace she recruited to go to Crawford with her that first day. I was part of the community that was having another event the day Cindy chose to show up.

August 6, 2005.

For months the North Texas Peace Community had worked together to bring one of only a few survivors of Hiroshima to speak at the "CRAWFORD PEACE HOUSE". Please, I wish everyone could truly understand, The Crawford Peace House, the "antiwar" activists, the "peace movement" existed in North Texas long before Cindy Sheehan ever came to town. All Cindy was for all of us was the spark that lit the fire we had long been tending.

Thank you all in advance for tolerating my rant.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. And how has Cindy harmed the North Texas Peace Community?

She hasn't. But you and a few others go out of your way to criticize HER.

[LittleClarkie]

32. How would you know if you're in Kansas and he's in North Texas?

It sounds like he was with her in the beginning, and if there is a problem since, he'd likely know, as he was there.

What first hand experience of North Texas's peace community do you have?

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. More than you realize

I already sent this post out to my contacts in North Texas. Let's see what they say.

Interesting that the person I addressed has failed to answer the question. And that person understands why I asked.

[LittleClarkie]

36. That's all I wanted, an answer. Thank you.

At least you know where to go for a first hand source.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. You know, I do leave Kansas every now and then

[Decruiter]

5. I forgot to ask, does that gorgeous cat live with you? She/He is beautiful and

obviously has an attitude. Just beautiful.

[fasttense]

6. I usually agree with Scott Ritter but he seems to forget we are no longer a working Democracy.

He writes: "American democracy is a game of numbers. The more people you align with your cause, the better chance you have of getting the system defined by the Constitution to work to your benefit (providing, of course, your cause adheres to the rule of law)."

When it comes to Impeachment, neither Democrat or republic cares about what the people think.

When the republic congress decided to Impeach Clinton, here is what the polls indicated:

Average support for impeachment and removal (10 polls): 26%
Average support for hearings (6 polls): 36%

http://www.democrats.com/clinton-impeachment-polls

Now when it comes to bush* and Cheney Impeachment here is what the majority of Americans think:

"Nearly half of the US public wants President George W. Bush to face impeachment, and even more favor that fate for Vice President Dick Cheney, according to a poll out Friday. The survey by the American Research Group found that 45 percent support the US House of Representatives beginning impeachment proceedings against Bush, with 46 percent opposed, and a 54-40 split in favor when it comes to Cheney."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070706195925.rdm9h3ci&show_article=1

Take another example, health-care. Here is what the polls indicate:

"In the current poll, 64 percent said the government should guarantee health insurance for all; 27 percent said it should not."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9e06e7d71631f931a35750c0a9619c8b63&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=2

And our dear leader will veto a bill to make sure our children have health coverage. What is wrong with this picture?

When the majority of citizens want legislation to address a problem and it is not done, you can no longer call that a democratic society.

[rucky]

20. Spot On! n/t

[Mojorabbit]

7. Thoughtful article

It is too early in the morning for me to fully digest it but he forgets that one needs the finge elements to keep impeachment in the news. It is true middle america needs to be won over. I think it can be done by groups of people working for impeachment in their own way. Need coffee.

[fasttense]

8. Middle Americans do not need to be won over for Impeachment

They are mostly for Impeachment but it really doesn't matter. We are not a democracy and what the people think or want no longer matters. The republics only had 26% approval when they Impeached Clinton. It seems only what the legislature think matters anymore. And our legislature seems to kowtow to the bushes.

[glowing]

9. This is a very long article... Its way too early to read through all of

this. He jumps from impeachment to healthcare to katrina to whatever.....And really I could care less anymore. anyone who can defend our congress for not impeaching is agreeing that our constitution is just G.D. piece of paper.

[Decruiter]

12. This is not too long an article and Scott Ritter does not "jump" from any one

issue, ever. Scott Ritter has stayed on topic without diversion for as long as I have had the pleasure of knowing him.

On another note, I really do not like the military position he takes but I find myself not able to disagree with him.

Hope you have a really nice weekend.

[glowing]

18. Ok, I went back and read the article....

It starts out ok. Recognizing that the president has committed serious impeachable offenses. I know that people put things on the impeachment list that include offenses of incompetence. If the American people who elected the president no longer want that president representing them because of incompetence, that should be a reason to remove the president. I think that is the reason why the list is longer, and in some way do have merit as to reason to impeach.

Now the debacle with Cindy and the others that met with Conyers has two sides. Well 3: MSM--Cindy was arrested at Conyers office today when they refused to leave. Cindy's version, Ray McGovern's version and the couple of other's who met with Conyer's version--which was to essentially say his carreer would not be dampened by the likes of a peace activist and an ex-cia guy, Cindy then issued a statement to the press that she would have no other choice but to run for election to push the anti-war movement. Then about 70 other activists began a sit-in which ended up with arrests. Conyer's version: Which I'm not so sure about other than that he met with them (which is better than mose congresscritters will do) and that after the meeting because of the disruption to the office, capital police were called.

People who are within the anti-war movement, the ladies living at the house and the one's who are day in and day out pushing and pushing and hearing and seeing more atrocities are shell shocked. I think they are suffering trama like symptoms. Its hard to realize until you've met one of the "in the trench" workers how engrossed and stressed they are. I happened to have the great pleasure this summer of being with a couple of these lovely ladies. One had been in Iraq as a human sheild and had worked as a nurse helping the wounded Irqi's when we first went in. I would say she is severly traumatized over the experience with the visuals and the pain and the terror that we inflicted. And she was headed, I think to Afghanistan this fall. The other lady has been in the house in Washington for quite a while. She gets to hear everyday excuses of our derelict politicians say I know its bad, but there is nothing I can do. It is extremely frustrating to talk to a brick wall and expect it to talk back. I am not even doing a good enough job of explaining the passion and the pain and the stress these people hold around themselves. Now, I try to make it to protests, sign petitions, etc. But I have a job like most Americans do. I have bills like most Americans do. And until we all stop living in fear of our govt and say fuck it and really protest and demand our rights, nothing is really going to change. We will get little things thrown our way like a $300.00 tax credit or a vacation or a new cell phone gadget to make us think we are happy. So, most people will be somewhat happy... Don't forget, civics is hardly taught these days and barely remembered--plus politicians know most people don't vote, so they only have to reach their die-hards and the pandering middle.

The last thing with the anti-war people or the impeachment croud---they are not a political party. They will do and make as much noise as they can so people will take a look. Once you take a look, you can hardly walk away the same (ever taken a look at the Depleted Uranium babies--walk away from that and think we should play games in congress). So, the goal is to get recognition first and foremost... We are dealing with a MSM which we know panders and protects asshat in chief. If it takes an arrest or pink and orange colors or whatever---that is important.

As to the rest of the article about imposing mandatory service for the country... I'm sorry this isn't Mother Russia. The choice should be each individuals.

[midnight]

10. The Democracy that you say that matters to you is "any

process which seeks to raise awareness of the constitutional remedy of impeachment when faced with acts on the part of the president and v. pres." provided they meet the criteria which you site. Why do you site Cindy Sheehan in particular? You just posted how she helped set up the process you value in a mock trial. She apparently shares your values in seeking a process to raise awareness of this wonderful constitutional remedy-Impeachment.

[Decruiter]

13. I am not "citing" it. I am providing links to a speech Scott Ritter gave to

a few people that probably my husband and myself are probably very like minded with.

I was with Scott in 2004, I was with Will Pitt and his editor from Truth Out in August of 2005.

I did not post about Cindy's mock trial, I pasted and copied from another report.

Midnight, I hope I have helped to clear up you misconceptions.

Peace.

No Midnight, Cindy does not inspire me and she has hurt to many of those I've held dear for several years.

[Decruiter]

11. Kicking up again for the early morning Saturrday crowd. This is a must read!

Thank you all that take the time.

[fed-up]

14. Scott Ritter-Republican, former Marine-need I say more...at least he was honest about no WMD

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0630-05.htm

Published on Monday, June 30, 2003 by the San Mateo County Times (California)
One Republican Against Bush
by Amelia Hansen

SAN MATEO -- The keynote speaker at Sunday's 2003 Peninsula Symposium and Benefit for Peace, Justice and Human Rights railed against President Bush and left the audience with a straightforward message for the 2004 presidential election: "Remember the A-B-C's -- Anything but Bush and Cheney." The message was met with unsurprising enthusiasm from the crowd. But the speaker himself had a bit of a surprising background: Scott Ritter, former U.N. chief weapons inspector, is a self-professed conservative Republican who admitted to the audience he voted for Bush three years ago.
.snip

"I leave the door open that they still may find something," Ritter said to the group of 100 or so people gathered in the darkened auditorium at the San Mateo Performing Arts Center on Sunday. "But even if anything is found, it won't be anywhere near what they said it was -- thousands of tons of biological weapons."

"If Iraq is in possession of weapons of mass destruction, they are in violation of international law," Ritter said. "If they aren't, then we are in violation of international law."

...snip
.

"In college I was a Reagan Republican," Ritter said. "I thought it was the government's responsibility to serve the people.

[LittleClarkie]

34. But people here have been very happy with his message in the past

why was he a reliable person before, and now that you disagree, he isn't?

[Green Mountain Dem]

15. It is very difficult.....

to be upset with either group because both have an agenda that will never be realized because you are forgetting about another movement that is stronger and more powerful than both of the others combined! This group is well organized and will assure that the anti-war and the pro-impeachment crowd remain insignificant and a mere annoyance to their already well established goals.

This group does not have a formal name and they remain in the background for the most part, BUT make no mistake about it...they call ALL the shots and run the show! They could care less about you and your petty causes..they could care less about our Constitution or the Rule of Law. They have their own!

You think they are afraid of Cindy or Scott or any "noisy" politician that talks the talk but can't walk the walk?? Cindy may have provided the spark but the fire never took hold and was extinguished before it got out of hand. All of these efforts will continue to remain merely glowing embers because this other group has an excellent fire department.

It is not the Congress..or the Senate or even the WH that deserves our attention, they too are merely pawns, along with the MSM, to our Corporate owners. One by one their goals are being achieved with barely a whimper from those of us being affected by their management. Only yesterday I was so excited to pay JUST $2.89 for gas and couldn't wait to get home so I could watch the continuing coverage of the destruction of more of our infrastructure. I found out that my state ranks 9th in the country for deficient bridges!

I am not a defeatist and I really remain hopeful that we can level the playing field with the corporatists, but I know in my heart that it is going to be a real challenge as they are so far ahead, and we continue to play catch-up. We really really really NEED a good Coach right now!

Just my two cents worth..and I don't need any change back Thank You!

[independentpiney]

16. I think this part of the first paragraph hit the nail on the head

"there are many out there who simply don’t get America, either because they are ignorant of the Constitution of the United States, which serves as the foundation of such an appreciation, or because they believe their own interpretation of the American ideal trumps that which legally, morally and structurally binds our nation together."

I don't see though how his mandatory national service is a solution to that.Military basic training to imbue discipline and adherence to chain of command doesn't always translate to civic knowledge and participatory democracy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Respectfully

It was a very well written article...I wish I could muster the mental discipline to explain my thoughts so well...


His basic argument is that America is a democracy and for any movement to be successful it must enlist the support of the masses... Without that support you have a lot of folks just carrying on...


Also, one poster made an ad hominem attack on Ritter because he was a former Republican... That strikes me as ill advised... I have never voted Republican in my entire life so my opinions should be beyond reproach according to him or her....

Another poster mentioned Ritter's mentioning of Katrina... He mentioned Katrina because he thought it was absurd that the impeachment movement thought Bush's incompetent response was an impeachable offense...

[Lerkfish]

19. J'accuse

I'm glad our finger pointing fingers work.

Too bad a spine is optional.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. LOL He is just trying to sell his book

"Before she destroys whatever vestige of credibility is left to her as a mainstream activist, I would advise Sheehan and those who are marching with her (some of whom I count as my friends and colleagues) to take a pause and read my book “Waging Peace: The Art of War for the Antiwar Movement.” The ideas and concepts set forth on strategy, operations and tactics, as well as gathering intelligence and knowing your enemy and battlefield, might have enabled Sheehan to plan and execute a more coherent and effective return from retirement."

[EFerrari]

23. Isn't "mainstream activist" an oxymoron? n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. In my world it is

[LittleClarkie]

33. That's too easy to say

When Mark Crispin Miller came out with his sensationalistic "Kerry knows the election was stolen" announcement. Because people liked his message, they didn't think about whether he was trying to sell books or not. Those who didn't like his message, like me, wondered if he was trying to sell books.

But the "trying to sell books" determination shouldn't change according to whether or not we like someone's message (and I say that to myself as well.)

It seems like people have liked this man's writing in the past. A person should be able to disgree with someone without calling their motivation into question.

[bobthedrummer]

25. Cheney first-I support HR 333 and actually doing a few things about it

It's beyond partisan politics, and when VIPS releases statements about dictatorship possibility here, that isn't tinfoil my friend.

We have been fascist for years, and the past 48 hours in DC is more consolidation for the Decider and HOMELAND (tm).

The rallying point is our BFEE papered over US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Impeach them all-Cheney first.

[ellisonz]

26. Spot on!

:donut:

[Psyop Samurai]

27. Dear Mr. Ritter...

Respectfully, you can shove your phony frame up your ass.

That "radical fringe" enough for ya?

[OzarkDem]

28. GOP impeached Clinton for a BJ

the American public didn't want that impeachment, but they got it anyway.

Americans are opposed to the Iraq War and Bush's running of it; the blue dress, not so much.

[mzmolly]

29. "they are failing, and will continue to fail, to have any meaningful impact"

And so they are failing, and will continue to fail, to have any meaningful impact on the American political system. The endorsement of their cause by fringe players in the legislative branch, and by disparate and poorly organized elements within American society, gets “headline attention” from a closed circle of cheerleading outlets within their movement, but continues to be ignored by the vast majority of Americans. The fact that the “Citizen’s Commission” could muster only some 70 activists for presentation of a mock indictment to the White House during the much-ballyhooed (and significantly underattended) “Camp Democracy” in September 2006 underscores the massive gulf which exists between its radical agenda and the reality of mainstream America. These same hard-core supporters constitute with little change the current flock that walks alongside Cindy Sheehan in her self-destructive march, an act of pathos and tragedy which resembles the Children’s Crusade or Napoleon’s march on Moscow (without the numbers, just the results) more than it does anything Martin Luther King Jr. ever assembled during his time. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: American democracy is a game of numbers. The more people you align with your cause, the better chance you have of getting the system defined by the Constitution to work to your benefit (providing, of course, your cause adheres to the rule of law).

...

In short, since American firefighters are perhaps best placed in any given community to understand that community’s overall health (given their responses to a variety of emergency situations that cut across all socioeconomic-political boundaries), they have much more in common with progressive social activist groups than many would acknowledge. Also, because firefighters are positively entrenched in the mainstream of America’s social fabric, anything the antiwar community could do to get a conservative firefighting crowd to embrace their cause would probably be successful in swaying mainstream America, the basic underlying premise of the “firefighter benchmark.”

Interesting analogy. I've not always agreed with Ritter, but it was clear to me that the Sheehan led "movement" became counter productive and even harmful to "the cause" some time ago. In a recent thread I suggested that a serious movement would involve people from all political stripes and it would be focused. Neither appears to be the case.

Ritter lost me at the end of the article however. I don't agree with the notion that all Americans should have "compulsory military basic training." I have the same issue with his lack of focus (in this article) as I do Sheehans.

However the lead into his closing statement is key:

...The Cindy Sheehan who gracefully and effectively challenged George Bush in Crawford during the summer of 2005 had mainstream appeal. The Sheehan who gets herself arrested attacking those in Congress who are most sympathetic to getting our nation out of the Iraq debacle does not.

Exactly.

[Gregorian]

30. Sibel Edmonds.

I didn't follow this trail of crimes for seven years for entertainment.

Just because Congress handed Bush a knife doesn't mean murder is legal.

Sorry boy. I always had a nervous feeling about you. At least you're honest.

[LittleClarkie]

31. Current crop of advisors?

Why does a protesting mom need a crop of advisors? Who are they?

[Cameron27]

37. K&R

[Garbo 2004]

39. Um, wanting withdrawal from Iraq is not a minority or radical view these days. It's "mainstream."

It's the pro-war hawks that are increasingly marginalized and not representative of the mainstream view.

That may not be so obvious to some, exposed as we have been to years of the corporate media bleating the Administration's propaganda, but just because the Administration and their shills have a bully pulpit doesn't make them the voice of the people or representative of a majority mainstream view. They want to promote the perception that they are the mainstream, but they're not and really never were. It's part of their scam, to convince us that they're the "respectable norm" rather than the radical revolutionary extremists they really are.

The mainstream has been swayed against the continuation of the Iraq war IMO by the continuing debacle of the war itself and the conduct of this administration. The lies, corruption and continuing draining of our resources in lives and dollars into an increasingly obvious failed squalid venture has become evident through the years to a whole lot of folks who have nothing to do with movements or ideologies and who really know and care nothing about the "Summer of Love 2007" that Ritter fears has had such a damaging impact.

So Ritter and some others may worry about "the movement" and what Cindy and others have done or may do, but IMO they are missing a big point: the majority of folks (the new "silent majority" perhaps, to borrow a phrase) don't support the continuation of the war and do support getting out. They may not regard themselves as part of an "antiwar movement" or in sync with those "radical fringe" types that Ritter and some others apparently worry so much about, but at the very minimum they've figured out that their pockets are being picked by a bunch of lying crooks in suits, to no good result, who are still peddling the old snake oil while they loot the national treasury to line their own pockets and those of their corporate cronies.

Ritter evidently doesn't regard the "antiwar movement" that he asserts he is a part of as being mainstream, but he and others should recognize that antiwar sentiment IS mainstream. And that's regardless of what Cindy might do since the reasons for the widespread anti Iraq war sentiment aren't in my view based on the persuasiveness of activists or ideology.

And as for impeachment, Ritter isn't against impeachment per se as it might seem from this article. It appears to me that he views impeachment alone as a bandaid, not a cure. Impeachment alone is just not enough as he futher elucidates in this article: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070531_repudiation_not_impeachment/ .

[KoKo]

40. Yeah...well it's looking like Cindy was a Cassandra for our time...

she knew ahead of the rest of us...those of us who "still believed."

[followthemoney]

41. Cindy is right. Scott is wrong.

Don't bother flaming me because I wear an impenetrable flame retardant suit and I just don't care. Rope a Dope.