Hillary is Bush lite

[sidwill]

I know many here are fans of Hillary but hear me out.

Let me start with Bill Clinton's view of foreign policy, everyone here knows that Bill pulled the inspectors out of Iraq back in 98 and bombed despite having no new intelligence that Hussein had restarted his WMD program, this was all to proven by the result of Chimpy's subsequent invasion and the facts exposed by it's failure.

Hillary voted for the war despite KNOWING BETTER and made many statements in support of the war in it's early stages, now she wants us to forget.

I don't care who wins the Democratic nomination but electing Hillary OR Edwards would be a slap in the face to progressives across the board, despite their apologies they voted for the war, that is an inescapabale fact.

We cannot forget that both Hil and Edwards enabled this president, we cannot hide behind the "they didn't know, they were going on the intel Bush provided" excuse because WE KNEW.

All of us on this board knew the war was trumped up, if anything these leaders knew or should have known better, lets not reward them with our votes.

[emilyg]

1. Bullhinky. Respectfully, of course.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. thats polite. its utter bullshit and lies.

[sidwill]

153. What specifically is a lie?

Is it a lie that Hillary voted to let Bush have his war? Oh yes, I know the dodge, the Seante simply voted to step aside and let Bush make the decision, so it's really worse, she voted to vacate the Seante's authority to declare war.

Is it a lie that Hillary has taken big money from many of the same patrons who own Bush? Defense. Big Pharma, RUPPERT FREAKING MURDOCH?!?!?!?!?

Is it a lie that the reason Hil stepped aside and cheered Bush on in his war was simple popular politics, how can we ever be sure that she would stick to her guns and do whats right?

[dembotoz]

2. I hate to agree

but I do.
Perhaps joe lieberman could be her running mate. I really do not see much difference.

[cynatnite]

3. So, Edwards is Bush lite, too?

:rofl:

[Dawgs]

8. First, why are you laughing?

Second, Edwards at least apologized.

[cynatnite]

13. Because it's hilarious...

If anyone seriously thinks that Hillary and Edwards are bush-lite it's because they want it to be so. And if you notice the OP didn't say that Edwards apologized.

In fact, the OP said both enabled bush.

:rofl:

Still hilarious.

[sidwill]

39. No Edwards isn't

And I think his apology was heartfelt, but it's too late for that. When he had the chance he voted for this war despite KNOWING it was wrong, for that alone he shouldn't IMO be considered.

As for Hillary, not only did she vote for the war she acted the part as well, rah-rahing with like the worst Republican war lover until it became apparent that the public sentiment had shifted.

Combine that with Bill embracing the use of force in Iraq while relying on the same sketchy "non-evidence" evidence that Bush did and I think that Hillary would if given the chance perpetuate the same old failed US foreign policy that seems to be driven by the military industrial complex and sometimes by our lone ally in the region.

[cynatnite]

48. I'm sooooo tired of the whining about that vote...

It's over. It's done. A lot of dems voted for it. We are where we are and now it's time to worry more about ending that damn war than who voted for it.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

119. A majority of Dems opposed that vote.

Frankly, it was an easy call. Even sitting here in the peanut galllery.

There are votes and then there are VOTES. IWR, PA, PA2, War Funding, Bankruptcy Bill, etc... Those are VOTES. It only takes a few bad VOTES for one to know with whom you're dealing with.

Hillary is Bush-lite. Poppy Bush-lite. Accent on the "lite."

[sidwill]

149. Really?

Your'e tired about the whining? Thats nice, I feel for you but Hillary was complicit in giving Bush carte Blanche to carry out not only the worst US forein policy action in history but one that has resulted in hundreds of thousand of deaths.

So I grieve for you being tired of US senators being held accountable for their votes.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

4. Do you honestly think that Sen. Clinton would

have nominated alito or roberts? Really?

[sandnsea]

5. That's what DU said in 2003

Funny how quickly people forget what they were adament about just a short time ago. Many were willing to tie Kerry's campaign up in knots over the war, Israel, etc., and he was more liberal than most who are running now. Weird.

[AndreaCG]

6. Isn't a key difference between Clinton and Bush

That in 1998 Saddam had refused numerous times to let UN inspectors have free access to check for the chemical, biological and nuclear weapons? Indeed, the first time Clinton was prepared to bomb Iraq he called off the attack when Saddam said he would let the weapons inspectors have free access. It was only after Saddam reneged that the bombing of the military and security targets began. Whereas in 2003 the UN inspectors were allowed in and had concluded that there were no weapons left? Furthermore, Clinton targeted military and security targets in Iraq, not the population at large.

[LostinVA]

7. HRC is certainly NOT "Bush Lite"

Ugh. It's totally fine to not like Senator Clinton. I myself loathe some of her voting choices, but she is far, far, FAR from "Bush Lite." Or Lieberman.

[xultar]

30. NO SHIT! Great post.

[napi21]

9. Speak for yourself sidwill. I listened to all the discussions in the Senate

and the House back before Shrub decided he was going off on his own. I remember the statements that requested "an authorization of use of force" because when someone is negotiating, he MUST be in a position to enforce his threats. After having worked for 45+ years, I KNOW that is true! Shrub was new to the job, and I HONESTLY didn't believe ANY American President would deliberately send troops to war for personal reasons.

It's easy to look back and say I should have known, but I didn't! If someone had told me, 6 years ago, that an American President would blatently ignore out laws and prove to be a dictator, I'd have called BS! I NEVER would have expected my Country would have such a rubber-stamp congress that enabled him to do so!

You may call me naive, but I used to believe our Presidents all did what they believed was best for this Country...even those I disagreed with never deliberately tried to destroy our Constitution! I don't think there's any way I could have known that in 2001!

[bvar22]

143. These Democrats KNEW not to trust Bush!

These Democrats KNEW not to trust Bush*
Robert Byrd, Paul Wellstone, and others made passionate speeches from the Senate Floor begging Democrats NOT to trust Bush.
Thay said: "A vote FOR IWR IS a vote FOR WAR!"
They were right.

The Democratic Party Honor Roll
These Democrats should be remembered for their principled stand against the WAR Machine.

IWR

United States Senate

In the Senate, the 21 Democrats, one Republican and one Independent courageously voted their consciences in 2002 against the War in Iraq :

Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
Barbara Boxer (D-California)
Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
Bob Graham (D-Florida)
Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
Patty Murray (D-Washington)
Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)


United States House of Representatives

Six House Republicans and one independent joined 126 Democratic members of the House of Represenatives:

Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii)
Tom Allen (D-Maine)
Joe Baca (D-California)
Brian Baird (D-Washington DC)
John Baldacci (D-Maine, now governor of Maine)
Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisconsin)
Xavier Becerra (D-California)
Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon)
David Bonior (D-Michigan, retired from office)
Robert Brady (D-Pennsylvania)
Corinne Brown (D-Florida)
Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio)
Lois Capps (D-California)
Michael Capuano (D-Massachusetts)
Benjamin Cardin (D-Maryland)
Julia Carson (D-Indiana)
William Clay, Jr. (D-Missouri)
Eva Clayton (D-North Carolina, retired from office)
James Clyburn (D-South Carolina)
Gary Condit (D-California, retired from office)
John Conyers, Jr. (D-Michigan)
Jerry Costello (D-Illinois)
William Coyne (D-Pennsylvania, retired from office)
Elijah Cummings (D-Maryland)
Susan Davis (D-California)
Danny Davis (D-Illinois)
Peter DeFazio (D-Oregon)
Diana DeGette (D-Colorado)
Bill Delahunt (D-Massachusetts)
Rosa DeLauro (D-Connecticut)
John Dingell (D-Michigan)
Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas)
Mike Doyle (D-Pennsylvania)
Anna Eshoo (D-California)
Lane Evans (D-Illinois)
Sam Farr (D-California)
Chaka Fattah (D-Pennsylvania)
Bob Filner (D-California)
Barney Frank (D-Massachusetts)
Charles Gonzalez (D-Texas)
Luis Gutierrez (D-Illinois)
Alice Hastings (D-Florida)
Earl Hilliard (D-Alabama, retired from office)
Maurice Hinchey (D-New York)
Ruben Hinojosa (D-Texas)
Rush Holt (D-New Jersey)
Mike Honda (D-California)
Darlene Hooley (D-Oregon)
Inslee
Jackson (Il.)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Johnson, E.B.
Jones (OH)
Kaptur
Kildee
Kilpatrick
Kleczka
Kucinich
LaFalce
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Lee
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lipinski
Lofgren
Maloney (CT)
Matsui
McCarthy (MO)
McCollum
McDermott
McGovern
McKinney
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Menendez
Millender-McDonald
Miller
Mollohan
Moran (Va)
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Owens
Pallone
Pastor
Payne
Pelosi
Price (NC)
Rahall
Rangel
Reyes
Rivers
Rodriguez
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Sabo
Sanchez
Sanders
Sawyer
Schakowsky
Scott
Serrano
Slaughter
Snyder
Solis
Stark
Strickland
Stupak
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Tierney
Towns
Udall (NM)
Udall (CO)
Velazquez
Visclosky
Waters
Watson
Watt
Woolsey
Wu


Insisting that Hillary is not as smart as all of these Democrats is not really a good campaign position.
Hillary is SMART. Hillary KNEW.
Hillary turned her back on 4000 Americans and 100,000 Iraqis because she believed that the Occupation would be a cakewalk and she would be looking good for 2008.
Hillary sold us out for political gain when we needed her the most.

Please don't try to argue that Hillary simply has shockingly poor judgement and trusted bush*. Everybody even remotely connected with politics KNEW about the Bush family.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. anyone who says Bushlite is a dumbass with no memory of when everybody liked to call gore Bushlite

and they were wrong then, and are wrong now.

ugh!

:puke:

[Lerkfish]

22. "Bushlite". there I said it.

and I only said it cause you were such a dumbass (your term) to tell me not to.

LOL

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. ha ha!

[mondo joe]

51. I'm starting to see why we don't have the Elephant mascot. No fucking memory.

None at all.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

19. You could probably just about paint that same brush on most senators...

I don't expect to agree with Hillary or anyone else on everything. Many of her stances are progressive as are a lot of democrats and some of her votes I don't agree with. Kerry's made some votes I didn't agree with.

Hell, I wish all the dems would quit voting for funding the pentagon like they do.

Anyone who expects it will be disappointed because it just ain't gonna happen.

And I am so over the whole war vote thing. :eyes: I care more about stopping it than how someone voted for it years ago.

[realbluesky]

27. You are correct, but I expect more from someone I support for Prez

Also, you are over the whole war vote thing? I'll never be over it. There are over 3,000 dead American soldiers who will never be over it. And their families. How many innocent Iraqi's will never be over it? I'm glad you can get over it so quickly.
And if you think HRC will end the war....I feel sorry for you because you will have a surprise coming.

[cynatnite]

32. I see no useful purpose in focusing who voted for that authorization...

Stopping it is where I choose to focus my efforts.

And I sure as hell don't think some repuke would try to end it. In fact, they'd keep it going on the same course that bush does now. If Hillary wins, at least I know a smarter person with better values than bush will be in the WH and I think she would at the very least she would work hard to end it, bring our troops home safely and responsibly, and deal with that whole Iraq mess with diplomacy as it should have been a hell of a long time ago.

We are where we are and all the bitching about a vote years ago isn't going to change a thing. It's the here and now we need to worry about. It's the future we need to worry about. Keeping an eye on the past doesn't hurt, but we only damn ourselves when we're not looking at anything else.

[mondo joe]

49. You must really enjoy the prospect of more hardline conservatives appointed to the

Supreme Court.

:eyes:

[durrrty libby]

14. Total crap...Grow up

[quinnox]

15. It is #2 on my list

see my signature, some may have questioned my logic or accuracy as putting it as the second most popular name that will be used to bash her for those that dislike Hillary, but I knew it would get hot.

I well remember the same thing happened to Kerry in 2004, many allegations of Bush-lite and so on, and Hillary will get the same thing.

But I still think "corporatist" remains in the #1 spot for the most popular choice for the anti-Hillary folks, however stay tuned, I predict "neocon" is a rising star!

[SIMPLYB1980]

16. BS!

[NotGivingUp]

17. You are absolutely right, and that's why the MSM is pushing them as the top contenders. nt

[Lerkfish]

18. believe it or not, I do not blame any congresscritter for their vote back THEN

I think the whole climate after 9/11 was toxic to patriots trying to stand up against the juggernaut.

HOWEVER, I AM concerned that Clinton's attitude towards the CURRENT Iraq situation is too similar to Bush's current stance, and her saber rattling against Iran in a misguided effort to garner votes is worrisome.

She's not the only one that worries me in that regard, but She is the the only candidate whose acolytes here keep trying to convince me she's the "goddess of peace", when she's pro-war.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. I blame them, but you're correct that what they're saying now is more

of a reason not to support them.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" is not what I want to be thinking in January 2009.

[helderheid]

20. Just like Gore in 2000?

:eyes:

[AtomicKitten]

21. Bullpucky.

Respectfully.

[Marrah_G]

23. Bullshit. And I am not even one of her supporters

There is no difference between Bush and Gore too, right?

[Beelzebud]

25. This post is Major Stupid.

[Old and In the Way]

28. I'd promote it to General Stupid.

:hi:

It's too bad we can vote threads for greatest page with a "good/smart" or "bad/dumb" qualifiers....

[Old and In the Way]

26. Would that make Bush, Hillary heavy?

It's a nice way to deflate and deflect Bush's malfeasence. HRC isn't my 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice, but I would happily vote for her if she wins the nomination. I find apologetic posts for the Republican Party by comparing Democrats to Republicans pretty distasteful.

[Initech]

29. If they voted for IWR, they don't get my vote. Plain and simple.

[Individualist]

38. Same here

[LeftCoast]

31. Obama lost a great deal of my respect with this comment

I still have not decided who I'm voting for in my primary, but at this point it's not Obama. Not one of our candidates is ANYTHING like that useless piece of crap currently leading the republican party. Not only that, but each one of them is more competent to run our nation than any of the current republican candidates.

Go tear up the other guy's party with this kind of BS. Feh.

[durrrty libby]

34. You no like swill?

[Imagevision]

35. Obama gained my respect by not taking the Bush position of not

speaking to the leaders of other countries, it's like he said, he wasn't going to invite whomever over for tea on Tuesday without prior understandings and clarifications. Some people have a problem with laying the cards on the table but carrying a big stick, I'm not one of them.

[harun]

36. Me too

[Tom Joad]

37. yes, as i understand it, she would even refuse to speak to Hugo Chavez, the

democratically elected leader of Venezuela (and very popular leader, more popular than any US President). what is that shit about?

and i have no doubt she would meet with u.s. backed dictators, like Uribe of Colombia, who sends out death squads to kill union leaders. Not only meet with him but promise more military aid to that regime. that's the m.o. of most US presidents, and it is damn time it changed.

I hope if obama gets in he does so.

[sidwill]

40. So many people on this board

decry the unholy alliance between industry-lobbyists- government yet throw their support behind Hillary.

True she is way better than Bush, but she cis cut from the same cloth in regards to who she is beholden to. Do we want a DLC corporatist to carry on the US march towards Corporate Oligarchic rule, but do so only more slowly than a Republican?

I say no, Hillary is the popular choice with the great name but she is what she is, we shouldn't have to settle for her.

[leftchick]

41. and she wold bomb Iran in a heartbeat

sounds bushlike to me.

[cynatnite]

45. How do you know? n/t

[martymar64]

54. AIPAC gives her money, lots of it

AIPAC wants war with Iran.

With Hillary, what AIPAC wants, AIPAC gets.

[cynatnite]

55. What proof do you have that Hillary gives AIPAC whatever they want? n/t

[martymar64]

65. Just every speech she's ever made to AIPAC.

Read them sometime. She's just itching to drop the bomb on Teheran.

[cynatnite]

68. Right...

:eyes:

Read all of the speeches by dems given at AIPAC. They are all pretty much the same. blah, blah, blah, Iran, blah, Iran, bad, blah...

Obama, Edwards, Clinton (well, both Clintons), Harry Reid, and others have all said similar things about Iran.

[martymar64]

72. And that's why we're fucked, no matter who wins.

Our own side is beholden tot he same bastard scum that owns the REthugs.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

[mondo joe]

76. Didn't you learn ANYTHING from the 2000 election?

For fuck's sake, GORE IS NOT THE SAME AS BUSH. Both specifically and metaphorically.

[martymar64]

80. Gore's maybe the one exception . . .and Kucinich

The rest all suck ass.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[martymar64]

85. I voted for Gore

However I seriously questioned his judgment for picking a fuckhead like Lieberman, who is no better than a Rethug.

[ikojo]

89. Gore did say "I agree" with Bush many, many

times during one of the presidential debates. I think at the time someone counted the number of times Gore said "I agree" during the debate and it was something like 63 times.

Gore may be looser now but what we are currently seeing is the Gore that was presented to the electorate in 2000. The package he presented was a stiff unemotional technocrat with a moralizer as VP.

[mondo joe]

146. How you can say that, in light of the war in Iraq, in light of Roberts and Alito, in

light of Gonzales, is a mystery.

[cynatnite]

79. The same old boss?

You say that because they all have the same view on Iran? How are they beholden? What makes you think that because they said the same rhetoric about Iran that it automatically means they'll bomb Iran the first chance they get?

[martymar64]

81. As long as AIPAC's paying, AIPAC calls the shots

They'll just dance with those that brung 'em.

[cynatnite]

82. How do you know? Can you prove that?

I've read that claim before.

[martymar64]

84. That's just my opinion

But you can safely be judged by the company you keep. If you're going out of your way to court the Bomb Iran crowd, one could reasonably deduce that you shares their opinion. (you in the rhetorical sense, not you personally)



Can you prove that she won't?

[cynatnite]

86. Bill Clinton is part of that same crowd...he never bombed Iran n/t

[martymar64]

88. Bill Clinton isn't president anymore.

But he did kill about half a million Iraqi children by starvation and disease from the sanctions. AIPAC cheered that every step of the way.

[cynatnite]

90. They cheered? Have a link? n/t

[martymar64]

92. Try these

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28346.html

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/Iraq/Sanctions.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_sanctions

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/iraq/


Now, you provide links to prove that Hillary won't unilaterally attack Iran.

[cynatnite]

93. Nope...nada...nothing there about AIPAC's cheerleading n/t

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

99. I agree about those horrid sanctions...no problem there, but...

when you make a statement be prepared to get called on it and be ready to back it up. I've said more than once on this forum that I have no reason to believe that anyone is going to drop bombs on Iran. The rhetoric is there and has been there since the Ayatollah's took over after the Shah was deposed, but it in no way means that it's an automatic given. Reagan didn't do it, Bush Sr didn't do it, Bill Clinton didn't do it and Bush Jr. hasn't done it so far. Them and many others have talked pretty much the same rhetoric, but it hasn't happened. Because of that I have no reason to believe it will happen.

To save you some time from posting numerous links about military buildups, Hersh and others...I do think military manuevers and other bits are designed to ratchet up the pressure on Iran to give the impression of a possible bombing. It's not unheard of.

It's not safe to assume anything because the chances of being wrong can come back on you.

[martymar64]

110. Listen to her speeches to AIPAC

If she has no intention of bombing Iran, then she is purposely lying to the AIPAC crowd. Would you vote for a liar?

[cynatnite]

112. And I say again...

Most dems all say the same rhetoric. It's to get money. Nobody has bombed Iran because AIPAC told them to.

[Mojorabbit]

158. Your statement

says it all doesn't it?

[martymar64]

97. Try providing some facts of your own.

Simply trying to knock down strawmen doesn't speak well of you.

[cynatnite]

100. I'm not making the claims...you are. n/t

[martymar64]

113. Then make a few assertions of your own

Tell me what she would do as president. Tell me that she ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT bomb or invade Iran. Tell me how she ABSOLUTELY will end the war in Iraq. Tell me how she'll ABSOLUTELY restore Habeas Corpus.

You seem to know her mind so much, tell me what her concrete plans are on what she would do as pres. Tell me how she'll stop outsourcing and stop domestic spying.

I don't think you know any better than I do. But I've heard her rhetoric, and that's what I base my assertions on. What do you base yours on.

[cynatnite]

115. Well, let me borrow your crystal ball since you know that she'll bomb Iran...

:sarcasm:

I'm not the one making claims that I can't back up. You and another person has and I asked for proof. It seems you have nothing, but your 'gut' feeling.

[martymar64]

120. I had a gut feeling aboput bush, and I was right

Where was hillary's gut when she supported invading Iraq? Where was hillary's gut when she said that she takes george bush at his word?

Was she wrong then? You can answer that, can't you?

If you can't answer that, then don't bother responding. Put me on ignore or something.

[cynatnite]

121. Why would I put you on ignore...this is too much fun...

you can't back up what you claim. That's okay. A lot of people say things they think are true without evidence. Look at bible supporters.

[martymar64]

124. I backed up the claim about the sanctions

What have you backed up? All you have is your blind faith in hillary. At least I have the guts to ask hard questions. You just take everything she says as the gospel truth.

Here's a news flash for you, dude. She's a politician. Politicians lie all the time. Tell me, why do you believe her and why the hell should any of us believe a word she says?
So if you want to stick around, I have some questions for you. I'm giving you a chance to sell me on her. But first answer this. Are you am member of her campaign team? Are you paid to post here?
I'm not asserting, I'm asking.
What specific policies do you think she will actually carry out that she's promised and how will it benefit all the people and not just the elites and corporations? What does she have to offer me as a left-leaning American citizen that the other candidates don't? What's makes you so sure that she won't sell us down the river in the name of political expediency? What is her position regarding Uribe and the murder of leftists in Colombia. Does she support Uribe in his policy of supporting death squads killing union leaders. Does she support the iraq hydrocarbon law that bush is pushing that will steal the oil from the iraqis? Will she curtail outsourcing or will she expand it? What is her position on on the war on drugs? What will she do to end homelessness in america?
Why should I vote for her rather than obama or edwards or kucinich? Don't give me any false dichotomy about it being either hillary or a rethug. Polls indicate than any of the candidates would beat the rethugs. So why should it be hillary?
If you are really convinced that she is this country's savior, then this should be easy for you.Please provide links to back it up.

I'll be waiting.

[cynatnite]

127. That's the sanctions...not the cheerleading you claim AIPAC was making...

that's what I asked for.

I have no idea what makes you think I have some 'blind faith in Hillary'. People made claims and I called them on it. How am I supposed to be convinced of your position if you have nothing more than speeches filled with rhetoric. There isn't even a quote of Hillary saying 'I'll bomb Iran' at the first opportunity.

You can be of the opinion that you believe she'll do it and that's fine. I'm not arguing with your opinion. I'm arguing over the claims you make.

[martymar64]

132. Whatever, now please answer my policy questions.

What proof do you have that hillary will do anything but maintain the status quo?

[cynatnite]

133. LOL...I never claimed that she would...

and if I had a crystal ball I could give you my best Jean Dixon imitation.

[martymar64]

136. So you can't say she'll do anything beneficial for people in america?

Is that right?
Then my next question is, why should I give her any support if she won't promise or even propose anything that will benefit me as an american?
With candidates like her, emigrating to Canada is sounding better and better.

[cynatnite]

141. I thik it's very possible she could a lot of good...

but I feel that way about a most of the candidates as well. I really haven't decided on which one I like most except I probably won't vote for Obama. What sort of benefits are you looking for? That covers quite a bit, you know.

[martymar64]

125. Can't answer? Thought so . . .

crickets are chirping

[cynatnite]

128. Well, I had to take a bathroom break, you know...

when you gotta go, you gotta go :)

[martymar64]

130. Now that you're back, please answer my questions.

Be as specific as possible.

[cynatnite]

131. Which post was it?

Or you can repost them. I thought I replied to all of your posts.

[martymar64]

134. Post 121

I have a whole list of questions about hillary. None of these are covered by her campaign site so I'll assume that you and other supporters will be privy to her plans vis a vis these questions.

[cynatnite]

135. Oh, those questions you asked were about Hillary's gut...

Where was hillary's gut when she supported invading Iraq? Where was hillary's gut when she said that she takes george bush at his word?

I have no idea where Hillary's gut was and never claimed to know. There you go. :)

[martymar64]

137. So why do you support her?

Why not support someone that promises real change like Kucinich?

[cynatnite]

139. I've never said I supported her...

I don't know who I'll vote for in the primaries. You're making the assumption.

[martymar64]

144. Then why are you defend her?

I'm assuming that becuase you're taking so much time out of your day arguing with me about her, that you are already on her team.
Personally, I have no confidence in her doing the right thing by us. I can't think of one concrete thing she's done for us as first lady or as a senator.

Politics is about horse-trading. You give me something, you get my vote. If she doesn't give me anything then she doesn't get my vote.
Maybe if she has her campaign give me some money, about $50K would be sufficient, that would earn my vote. She can afford it. I know that's a cynical attitude to take, but lobbyists buy votes every day.Might as well get a piece of the action.

[cynatnite]

145. Actually, I'm home, all the work is done and I'm enjoying myself

:)

All I asked for was proof on the claims being made about her and will to continue on for probably another half hour...maybe an hour more.

I totally understand your cynicism and appreciate it. I've felt that way more than once and have considered bending over and supplying the lube with the way the American people have been treated over the last several years.

Everyone has to decide in their own way about all of the candidates and if Hillary or anyone else isn't who you want, don't vote for them. In the booth, it's just you and the machine. And, I don't believe God should be allowed in a voting booth. :)

Hopefully, our votes will be counted fairly, and the best person gets the job. Sadly, that didn't work the last two times. We've paid for it in a major way.

[martymar64]

154. I'm already actively planning on leaving for Canada

I'm trying to raise cash to get a Canadian immigration lawyer. I have job skills that would be valuable in Canada, but a lawyer costs about $10K. Maybe I should hold a "Help Marty Escape to Canada" fundraiser. I'm joking but serious.

Like I said, I have no more confidence in our politicians or government in general and hillary in particular. America has lost its way and its too far gone to get back to where we were even seven years ago. Our elected officials no longer represent us in anything but name. The system is stacked against ordinary people having any power and it always will be. Here in Texas, my vote means absolutely nothing more than an empty gesture. This state will go to the republicans, that is a guarantee. And the knowledge of that makes me despair.
I know that all of us here are technically on the same side in our desire to be rid of bush, although we don't agree on tactics. And because we are divided, bush and the fascists will win. They have the power and the guns. All that good people can do now is rise up in rebellion or flee. I'll flee because I don't want to end up in some torture chamber or concentration camp.

I get a little hot headed about much of this and if I got insulting, I apologize. In the real world, I'm pretty unflappable. But I see what has happened to this country and I feel only shame. Not just shame over the perpetrator but also over the enablers that stand by and let it happen. Under these conditions, I can no longer call myself an American. If I had the money, I'd be in Vancouver tomorrow. But being poor, I have to struggle to raise the money to get out. I hope I can do it soon, before it is too late. But if I have to, I'll become an illegal alien. But the bottom line is that under the ways things are now and will be for the foreseeable future, I cannot stay.

[martymar64]

138. I also had a whole list of policy questions about her. Can you answer even one?

If you support her, you must be familiar with her policy proposal, right? Or do you just like her because her last name is Clinton?

[cynatnite]

140. Okay, where are the policy questions...

what's the post number?

[cynatnite]

142. Found it...never mind n/t

[leftchick]

105. don't hold your breath

hillary defenders do not rely on reason. Only adoration.

[martymar64]

114. OF course not

They've bought into their own hustle.

[leftchick]

59. here you go

I posted it accidentally to myself.....

she sounded like a neocon at the AIPAC meeting last winter

Except perhaps by her including "diplomacy" which she has now repudiated. Calling Iran a threat when it has no nuclear weapons and Israel and the US have thousands is, well, extremely distressing to say the least.....


Hillary Clinton calls Iran a threat to U.S., Israel

<Calling Iran a danger to the U.S. and one of Israel's greatest threats, U.S. senator and presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton said "no option can be taken off the table" when dealing with that nation. . . . "We need to use every tool at our disposal, including diplomatic and economic in addition to the threat AND use of military force," she said.>

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/02/america/NA-GE...

[cynatnite]

60. So, she's not saying anything any differently than other dems...

I still don't get why people think she's out to bomb Iran.

[leftchick]

61. well her and Edwards are more strident about it

neither have said they would not. So why do you think they wouldn't? All of their speeches their AIPAC indicate Israel dictats US foreign policy in the Mideast. Pretty sad when you consider Israel is armed to the teeth. It would be nice if those in power toned down the military options and focused on real peace initiatives. But the folks at AIPAC don't like to hear that sort of talk. Pander, pander to the money people....

[cynatnite]

63. You know it's all for show, don't you?

Play to the center, show that you're tough, show that you're willing to use military force if need be...speak the rhetoric to show you're a strong leader. I don't like it, but that's basically what it is.

When I hear that talk, except when it comes to bush, I know that's exactly what it is...especially during an election year. I seriously don't expect bombs to be dropping right after they get into office. Now, if they're pounding that same war drum after getting into office...then I worry.

And pandering does help win elections. Sad fact.

[leftchick]

71. play to the center? She IS the center

More like the Right of center, the Queen of the DLC. And given the fact she took diplomacy off the table the other night she has now become a hardliner. :eyes:

[cynatnite]

74. She took diplomacy off the table? I hadn't heard that...

got a link?

[leftchick]

57. she sounded like a neocon at the AIPAC meeting last winter

Except perhaps by her including "diplomacy" which she has now repudiated. Calling Iran a threat when it has no nuclear weapons and Israel and the US have thousands is, well, extremely distressing to say the least.....


Hillary Clinton calls Iran a threat to U.S., Israel

<Calling Iran a danger to the U.S. and one of Israel's greatest threats, U.S. senator and presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton said "no option can be taken off the table" when dealing with that nation. . . . "We need to use every tool at our disposal, including diplomatic and economic in addition to the threat AND use of military force," she said.>

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/02/america/NA-GEN-US-Clinton-Iran.php

[cynatnite]

58. Well, if she sounded like it...

:sarcasm:

What she said is no different than what Obama and Edwards have said about Iran.

[leftchick]

62. no shit

Does that make her position better than bush's?

:eyes:

[cynatnite]

64. or Edwards, or Obama, etc?

get real. Most of them talk like that anyway during election time. They gotta show how tough they are. I won't take it to heart during election season. Now, if they're doing it after getting into office...then I'd worry.

Frankly, I expect it more from bush. I do believe that any responsible president would explore every diplomatic route possible and only take that action if absolutely necessary. (not bush's way of doing things) All of the dems, IMO, would handle it that way because they are smart, responsible and have integrity.

[leftchick]

73. Hil is the one who took diplomacy off the table

damn! What a War Goddess! I guess we are supposed to be impressed with hardline warhawk talk after all of the death the last 6 years?

gimme a break!

[cynatnite]

Prove she took it off the table n/t

[leftchick]

91. I don't have to prove a thing

apparently you are the one not paying attention. Go find google and search Clinton No Diplomacy and see what comes up.

:eyes:

[cynatnite]

94. You said it was so. You don't have facts to back up your statement? n/t

[leftchick]

107. I gave you several links and the fact she has now said diplomacy is dead

for what she considers "rogue states". Obviously you did not bother to read them. What a shock!

I love your avatar BTW. How ironic. :eyes:

[cynatnite]

111. Which post was it?

I haven't read anything of her saying that diplomacy is dead in regards to rogue nations.

And what does my avatar have to do with anything? :shrug:

[cynatnite]

75. dupe n/t

[AndreaCG]

42. I think you understand it wrong

She said she would not meet with people who are not allies without laying the groundwork for substantive talks by having envoys meet first to agree on the agenda to be discussed, so as not to be used for propaganda purposes.

As for Chavez, he does a lot of good things but he's also been closing down media which don't agree with some of his positions. That's troublesome.

[Tom Joad]

43. I understand your concern about Chavez, but like you said,

she (like W, like Bill, like George1, like reagan...) will have no problem meeting with people like uribe, because they are "officially" US allies (of the corporate elite) You don't think Uribe uses stuff like that for propaganda purposes?

unfortunately, i don't think she is much different or any worse than most past u.s. leaders. but that is tragic, not a compliment.

[Disturbed]

46. What are the differences between Bill Clinton and Hillary

regarding domestic and foreign policies? Voting for her is the same as voting for him to be back in the WH in my view.

[Tom Joad]

47. I doubt there will be much of any differences...

and that is not a good thing.

[mondo joe]

52. Like that's my biggest fucking worry. NT

[napi21]

148. Don't you listen????

Hillary DIDN'T say she wouldn't listen to despot leaders. She said "She would not comit to meeting with them, face to face personally. She would send high level representatives to meet with them to FIRST find out what their intentions were!

Doesn't anyone here understand how high level negotiation works? AAAAAAAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lutefisk]

44. ...and if Bush is Hitler lite, that means...Clinton is...OMG!

While I do not support Mrs. Clinton as a candidate for President, I think the Bush comparison is off base. It's too much like the awful "no difference between Gore and Bush" crap.

She's more like Lieberman's little sister, if I were forced to make a comparison.

[Tom Joad]

50. let's just call them something we do not want for the future of our country.

Just because a politician is not comparable to some monstrous figure does not mean they are desirable, or even mean that their policies are deplorable.

I mean, we need higher standards than just that, don't we?

[lutefisk]

56. I agree. We need to set some pretty high standards for this election.

Unfortunately, the people who can live up to those standards and have any realistic chance to be elected, aren't candidates. . . yet.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

53. Oh What A Crock Of Crap That Is.

Know what occurred to me recently? That I almost hope to God that Hillary not only wins the Dem nomination, but gets in the WH as well, so that I can not only laugh my ass off at the freepers writhing in pain but also at those on our supposed side that attack her with exaggerations and ignorant premise.

Maybe that's wrong to say, but I mean every word of it. I'd laugh my ass off.

[Maribelle]

67. I was going to vote for Edwards in the primary.

I met him personally when I was working on the get-out-the-vote campaign in 2004. He is a wonderful man.


Reading all the "I hate Hillary" trash and outright lies posted here on DU, and defending her on occassion, has completely changed my mind.


I will vote for Hillary, now.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

69. Why do you like Hillary Clinton so much?

Not at all a challenge, but just an honest question. What really makes you such a big fan? In my own case, I have found it hard to be very enthusiastic about any of the current Democratic candidates so far, although WITHOUT QUESTION I would vote for any one of them over a Republican, including Hillary. Kucinich comes the closest to representing my views, but I don't expect a candidate without money in America to get the nomination. Say something that might make me turn on to Hillary Clinton, if you would be so kind.

[Larkspur]

66. At least Edwards apologized for his IWR vote

Hillary, like Bush, views admitting mistakes as a sign of weakness.

[MODemocrat]

70. What a bunch of baloney

Anything goes if it's negatives about the Clintons..Hillary is NOT Bush-Cheney lite, by any stretch of the imagination.
By the way, you should have posted your source for the subject line
"Hillary is Bush lite". That was a quote from the "Walk on Water" Barrack Obama.
He can say now he didn't vote for the war in Iraq; because he couldn't; he was still in Illinois;
not in Washington D. C. Easy for him to say now. :+ :smoke: :boring:

[mondo joe]

77. Who needs FOX News when you have the DU Clinton-Hate-Brigade.

Keep spinning your BS.

[Cameron27]

78. Nope, not one of our guys is even close to being bush lite.

[BlooInBloo]

87. DU hates Clinton so much - no hyperbole left behind....

[martymar64]

98. If you hate DU so much, why are you here?

Disparaging people that want real change in this country and not just cosmetic change or lip service doesn't reflect well on you.

[BlooInBloo]

101. Love it or leave it, eh?

[martymar64]

116. You said it not me.

You seem to hate anyone and anything to the left of lieberman, and many of us here are leftists and proud of it. I'm just wondering why you put yourself through it if it's so heinous here.

[BlooInBloo]

117. Most bizarre statement ever.

[martymar64]

122. Whatever dude.

Keep up with your winning hearts and minds for hillary. :rofl: :rofl:

[benny05]

95. That comment is going to Haunt Obama's campaign

I must say that I disagree what the Obama campaign did today in pushing back against Clinton. Personally, I don't want Clinton to be the nominee anymore than the poster (not for the same reason as I support another candidate), but the comment by Obama was akin to calling Clinton a troll or a freeper. DU'ers have strong opinions because she is affiliated with the DLC that she feeds the corporate interests. Yep, she takes money from lobbyists, and she doesn't deny it. DU'ers call Clinton Republican lite frequently, and with the forum we are provided here, rants are fine, if we are doing them. In other words, the candidates we support are fair game to anyone who is a member here. Granted, sometimes it gets ugly, and old.

But what is not OK is for another highly-regarded Dem such as Obama (based on the donation scale) to call Clinton a freeper or troll. It shows a lack of judgment, almost to what Taylor Marsh said this afternoon, "swift boating", except one has to give Obama a little benefit of the doubt. Obama was right to push back, but to the extent he is preaching a new type of politics, as he has said more than once, slurring someone by calling them a freeper what not what I had in mind.

And apparently, at least one Obama supporter has said s/he is done with his campaign.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/7/26/183419/489

[cynatnite]

102. I thought it was unseemly....

I'm not voting for him because of it.

[martymar64]

118. Even if he wins the nom?

So much for hillaryite calls for voting for the dem in the General election. You just proved that hillaryites won't practice what they preach.

Say hello to four more years of republican rule.

[cynatnite]

123. Um...it was about the primaries...you know...the ones before the general election...

you know about those, don't you?

[martymar64]

126. You just said you wouldn't vote for him

Now say it definitively. Say you'll vote for the Dem Nominee, even if it's Kucinich. Otherwise, it's all empty rhetoric.

Now please answer my questions that I posted to you.

[cynatnite]

129. Let me clear this up...

I will not vote for Obama at the primaries. I was leaning towards him before, but not now. I haven't decided who I will vote for, yet.

The general election I will vote for a Dem no matter who it will be. I'm a Dem until I die.

[BlooInBloo]

103. I think it's an excellent move in the primary... tapping into the largely-irrational DU-style hate..

... after all, the haters' votes count just as much as anybody else's. And the move sucks a bit of the wind from DK-ish people.

Seems like solid political tactics to me.

[cynatnite]

104. Of course DU represents the majority of the population...

:eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

106. Good thing I said "primary".

[cynatnite]

108. Okay, you got me

It is a very good thing :)

[BlooInBloo]

109. :)

[sarcasmo]

147. But, But, Hillary said she is a Progressive.

[sidwill]

150. A progressive

who happens to have voted to give the boy king carte blanche to play toy soldiers.

Anyone who wants to give her a pass on this is being intellectually dishonest, applying different standards to the Repukes who coddled Bush while saying it was OK for Hil and Edwards and Kerry to do the same.

Give us anyone who oppossed this war, anyone but NO to Hil, Biden, or Edwards.

The blood of the dead is on their hands, regretful of their vote or not.

[NotGivingUp]

151. All you folks willing to settle...WHEN and HOW are things ever going to get better?

You know the definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[ShortnFiery]

152. Agreed.

:thumbsup:

[waldo_evans]

155. Hitlery and Obummer

and Edwards are all pieces of the same rotten cloth. Repugs in disguise.

Gravel and Kucinich are the only good candidates, but they'll go nowhere.

[cynatnite]

156. Oh, yeah, you smell bad...

didn't take long to find you.

[cynatnite]

157. n/t

[Enrique]

159. I remember the Clinton presidency

it didn't resemble the Bush presidency in the slightest way.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

160. exactly.

hillary has her faults. they are nothing like bush's though. she sways with the popular opinions. bush creates a whole new reality and forces popular opinion with lies.