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The Hammer Harry Reid Won't Strike With

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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:27 PM
Original message
The Hammer Harry Reid Won't Strike With
Edited on Sat Jul-21-07 11:31 PM by NativeTexan
Senate Republicans are being allowed, by Senate Democratic Leaders, to block ANY legislation they please through procedural moves, that Majority Leader Harry Reid has the power to change.

Filibustering is the most popular way, in a narrow majority situation in the U.S. Senate, to disallow voting to take place on a particular bill. Or as it has been lately, against just about ANY bill! This is being done through a move known as a "procedural" filibuster, which basically allows someone to THREATEN a filibuster, and the majority says, "oops, can't get a vote on that", and they back off.

I can't help but wonder why Senator Reid doesn't use the power that Senate Rules gives the majority leader to require a REAL filibuster. One where a Senator or a series of Senators must take to the floor and speak until they either give out, or there are finally a supermajority of 60 votes in favor of cloture, which would end the filibuster and require the vote on the legislation.

It would seem that our Democratic Leadership in the Senate would rather play politics. I mean, seriously...requiring an actual filibuster would be just what Senate Democrats are trying to get in the first place. Either a VOTE, or some way of holding Republicans acccountable for their fear of George the King and his court jester Cheney the Dick. It will be on television, in the papers and in the Official Senate Record, who is stalling the votes on important items such as pullout deadlines for American Military Forces in Iraq!!

I can't help but believe that sooner, rather than later, enough fence-straddling Republicans would cross over to vote cloture.

As was once said to a very STRONG, INDEPENDENT, and DOWN-TO-BUSINESS DEMOCRAT with the same first name.....one, so far MUCH different than the one we look to today.....

GIVE 'EM HELL, HARRY!!!.....Isn't it about time???
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for explaning this.

I get lost sometimes in the finer "procedural" points

Cheers.

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Rick Myers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. Drop the bomb, Harry... The Nuke Option.
The damn LEGISLATURE of this Nation better stand up and do their job... The Executive is OUT OF CONTROL, illegal, a cotery of TREASONIST bastards, SELLING America to the highest contributor.

The House and Senate can stand up and fight or get the hell outta' the way...

This is the biggest crisis this Nation has EVER faced...
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. What good would the nuclear option do?
you still need 67 votes to override a veto.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Get the press in a frenzy
maybe pressure some hold out republicans to cross over, worth a try.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. and if, in a few years,
Republicans control the senate, the Democrats no longer have the filibuster as a tool to stop the most egregious abuses. just for a little press attention?
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. No, you said we need te 67 votes
I am saying that the more the cry goes out to stop the war and the more fights in DC, the more press coverage, the more peoples opinions are swayed, the more they contact their reps, the more likely esp with an election coming up that more Republicans will cross over.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. enough will cross over
to override vetoes?

And then we have to deal with the House, too, which needs 2/3rds also to override.

Get rid of the filibuster, and nothing would change for the better - no legislation that the republicans oppose would become law.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I want them to fillabuster
I don't think I am making myself clear and my apologies. I want them to fillabuster and hope no blonde girl goes missing at the same time. I want it on the news every night that they are blocking a vote on ending the war. The more press, hopefully the more R congressmen will cross over.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. You vastly overesrtimate the press's interest in reporting actual news.
That requires actual work--but you just keep believing. It's kinda cute.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Didn't he just do that this week?
Edited on Sat Jul-21-07 11:35 PM by blogslut
Someone back me up here. Wasn't that exactly what Reid did this week?
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Nope
They just had open debate......nothing more. Filibuster is done by the party that is against the legislation. It could be an entire side of the aisle, or as Jimmy Stewart did in "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington", it can be done by just one man. It can even be done by a GROUP of Senators with a like mind on a given subject.

Open debate, is just that.....debate...and in this case, not closing business for the day, so that it could be debated all night. And actually, it was just as the Repugs said it was.....a cheap, political stunt, and it had no teeth whatsoever in the passing of the legislation.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. It was not a stunt
You do realize that Reid removed the bill from the floor as well as all the amendments. He forced those Republican to vote against cloture - thereby showing their constituents that they have no interest in ending this war.
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well??? Yeah, but....
who is really paying any attention to cloture votes of a meaningless debate?
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. I am
Every news network and newspaper in the country covered it. The people saw. They know what's going on. More than 75% of this country is ready for our soldiers to come home.
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. And 100% of ME is too!
I am so sick of this guy. The closest thing to something good that has come out of this presidency is getting Bush out of TEXAS POLITICS!!!
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. yes, it was more than what's been done to date
and I commend him for taking a step. Now it's time for the next step. With jackboots!
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I guess I do to.....
...but its kinda like fixing your gas mileage by only changing one sparkplug! It might feel like you accomplished something, but there are no real affects after you are finished.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. nope
he did an overnight debate with multiple speakers, then held a cloture vote that failed.

After the cloture vote he should have said, ok then, you don't want to stop debate - get up there and start talking. When you run out of steam, we vote. some hours later, they'd have voted.

Here's a REAL filibuster:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,90552,00.html
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. EXACTLY FROG!!!
Thanks for the link!
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. from wiki:
"A filibuster can be defeated by the governing party if they leave the debated issue on the agenda indefinitely, without adding anything else to the agenda. Strom Thurmond's attempt to filibuster the Civil Rights Act was defeated when Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Johnson refused to refer any further business to the Senate, which required the filibuster to be kept up indefinitely. Instead, the opponents were all given a chance to speak and the matter eventually was forced to a vote."
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. There ya go........
Another something that Reid has to know, but refuses to use. All he needs to do is CALL THEIR HAND!
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. This was a case wherein the pugs were trying to block the civil rights act
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 12:03 AM by frogcycle
and LBJ called their bluff, got it passed. As important as the Civil Rights Act was, redirection the Iraq occupation and salvaging parity in government are certainly equally crucial to the nation now. Reid needs to be at least as tough as LBJ before he can deserve his "Give 'em hell Harry" website.
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
42. Exactly correct!
It takes courage....and we ain't seeing much of that at present from our leaders!
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. My sentiments exactly
I've posted the same thing 4-5 times. I THOUGHT that was what he was doing Tues night, until it started and turned out not to be so. He should make some pug stand there 'til he drops. At some point, not sure what, it becomes fair game to call for a vote when the guy leaves the podium. So do that for every frigging bill, go 7x24, burn them out, and pass everything 50-49.

That forces pug Senators to actually work and also get publicity as an obstructionist, and forces * to go on record vetoing everything. It would at least defuse the "can't get anything passed" rap.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. Because they don't wanna be movie extras?
Edited on Sat Jul-21-07 11:39 PM by Kagemusha
You know, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington? Maybe senators on both sides of the aisle really don't like the notion of being held hostage like that? Seems to me that senators of both parties decided along the way that such spectacles make senators look undignified. Well we can't have that. (Edit: :sarcasm:)

It's my understanding that this is actually what happened, but since I can't quote chapter and verse I'm not going to push my luck saying so. They just seem to think it's a 'decorum' thing.
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Actually.......
Edited on Sat Jul-21-07 11:46 PM by NativeTexan
......Senate Rule 22 gives the Majority Leader the power to require an ACTUAL filibuster, instead of one of these "I am threatening to do something, so you do what we know you are going to do.....don't call the vote"....things!
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. But he's not gonna use it to the full extent because it's... unsenatorial, right?
Though you'd think by the screaming at him in the editorial pages that he's some kind of dictator.
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. UnSenatorial my BEHIND!!
Everything that Reid and even Pelosi have done so far, in effort to end the war, has been a dog & pony show, because they are afraid of being saddled with taking responsiblity for the dang thing! What needs to happen is that they START DOING WHAT THEY WERE GIVEN THE MAJORITY TO GET DONE!!!

They could be blamed for something, but with 75% of ALL AMERICANS in favor of getting the hell out of Iraq.....I think the odds favor real action over cosmetic politics! These are REAL lives of young people that are being batted around like a shuttlecock at a badminton tournament!
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-07 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
18. self-delete
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 12:12 AM by AtomicKitten
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flying rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
23. Most Americans don't know that a "filibuster" happened
Most of the ones that do don't realize it really wasn't a filibuster. Go for broke Harry.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
25. WTF? All those cots I saw on TV were just about "threatening" to filibuster?
is that what this is about? I say this makes Reid look weak, if that is the case. it makes it look like a stunt, with all the beds on tv. if someone is saying they are going to filibuster, then by all means make them freaking do it. lives are at stake.
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. no it THAT wasnt the threat....
The dog and pony show was called BECAUSE a procedural filibuster was called my Mitch McConnell, and that blocked the vote. The "show" was a response to that. REID could have, at the time McConnell called the procedual filibuster, to REQUIRE an ACTUAL TAKE THE FLOOR AND HOLD IT FILIBUSTER....he did not. No one has in YEARS. Is THIS issue not important enough to do that????
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pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
27. Harry Reid is starting to look like just an average
con-man, holding the payoff just out of reach, always needing one more step, while he sucks your wallet dry.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
28. So Reid Controls 67 Votes?
Think about all the great things that would happen if that were the case. Impeachment? The troops could be home tomorrow, boooshie would be impeached and the world would be a far safer place. That's not the case.

Yes, there's lot of reasons for Reid to force votes by dropping the nuclear option...and still come up short on any bills that are vetoed. But it also would come back to bite Democrats in the future as once this option is gone, one of the few tactic Democrats could use in the minority is gone. The truth 61 votes will open the door to up or down votes, but it won't over-ride a veto and could make boooshie look stronger rather than weaker.

The pressure must continue to be on the Repugnican obstructionists...4 Repugnicans have already seen the light...6 more are on the fence and need to be hammered over and over for their double-speak. People like Lugar, Warner, Coleman and others who are the ones who hold the key to getting up or down votes on a wide variety of legislation...and wedge the Repugnicans...make them defend this invasion and the fukstick who got us into this mess.

Reid makes a convenient scapegoat...especially by the corporate media...who knows that Democrats are restless and we have the tendency to eat our own rather than focus on where the real opposition is.
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. THIS is not the NUCLEAR OPTION...
THIS is a law that has been on the books and used for years. Just not recently. Ever see "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington"? That is what the movie is all about!
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
29. Harry doesn't want to embarrass his good Republican friends
by actually making them take a stand for or against things, with an important election coming up. If the Republican Party is destroyed, the Democrats would have no excuse for not doing much.
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. OR he's afraid that if they regain power, the Repugs will........
.......use require it TOO!

Pardon my language, but WHO GIVES A SHIT!! This issue is TOO important and is dealing with REAL AMERICAN LIVES!
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
37. I just contacted Senator Reid's DC office..........
.....and believe it or not, there was NO ONE available to discuss IRAQ with me, and they had no idea where I was from!

So I left a "voice message" and sent him an email.....like he'll ever hear or see those.

NO ONE available on IRAQ!!!

GEEZ!!!!
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
38. He just did that last week.
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. No...no he didn't...........
.......read my entries to other comments above. That was NOT a filibuster.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
40. Why Do Democrats Fear A Filibuster?
This is an entry from my personal blog, which I cross posted on MyDD on Sunday July 15th, the day before Harry Reid announced that he would hold the Senate in 24 hour session starting the next day to try to break a Republican filibuster. Some parts of it are outdated now, but most of it still holds true:


Why Do Democrats Fear A Filibuster?

Repeatedly, Republicans in the U.S. Senate have shown both their willingness and their ability to muster the 40+ plus votes needed to sustain a filibuster by denying a motion for cloture. As a result several crucial Democratic legislative initiatives, which if polls are to be believed all had strong public support, have expired with a whimper not a bang. And each time the Democratic Senate leadership turns to the public with a collective shrug and says; “We tried but they won’t let us”, while public dissatisfaction with a Democratic Congress continues to grow. It must be frustrating for them. Is it their fault that the American people haven’t elected enough Democratic Senators yet to bring legislation to a vote when Republicans refuse to limit debate? No, it’s their fault for refusing to make Republicans either put up, or shut up.

Each time the Republicans demonstrate that they have the votes they need to filibuster Democratic legislation to death, Democrats respond with an emphatic “there’s really no need to bother” as they move on to the next item on their legislative agenda. From where I sit it seems like they’re all just going through the motions. Democrats propose important legislation which they are confident reflects the will of the people, and then Republicans tap them on the shoulder and say “you don’t have 60 votes”. Democrats respond;”we can’t argue with your math”. The legislation dies, dueling Press Releases get released to the press, and they all move on to repeating the exact same charade with the next important piece of Democratic legislation.

It seems like a “gentleman’s agreement” prevails in the Senate that says in unspoken words, “none of us are up for the stress of a real filibuster anymore, so let’s have cloture votes instead, and if Republicans can muster 40 votes we’ll consider that a substitute for a successful filibuster and save all of us a lot of unnecessary trouble.” Well what’s wrong with that, some might ask? If you know you will lose anyway, why not say uncle early and save yourself an unnecessary fight? I suppose it’s a fair question. When I begin to formulate an answer my mind fixes on an image from many years ago. If you allow me a short digression, I think you will understand why.


It was around 1980 and I was a member of an environmental activist organization that was staging a major protest against a large corporation which we believed was putting both the environment and public health in jeopardy through their actions. The protest campaign was approaching a climax and a decision had been made to attempt to shut down their corporate headquarters for one day through a non violent civil disobedience blockade of all the entrances to their building.

Our organization however faced a dilemma. Our members adhered to a very strict code of non violent conduct which prohibited any activity that might endanger either persons or property. Therefore we ruled out any behavior that would truly make an entrance impassible in case of, heaven forbid, a fire or some medical emergency. So putting Super Glue in locks, chaining of doors, anything like that was simply never an option.

Ideally we would have loved to have hundreds and hundreds of protesters willing to non violently block each of the entrances with our bodies, prepared to be arrested without resistance for our beliefs should police be called upon to remove us. We would have loved to position new waves of protesters to stand by and replace us at the doors as each prior batch got carted off to jail. There was just one small problem with that plan; we didn’t have enough people to pull it off. Turns out we couldn’t muster several hundred protesters willing and/or able to make that commitment at that moment in time; the most we could come up with was several dozen. So we had to find some face saving way to fake it.

The idea we came up with was pretty feeble, but it still seemed better than nothing. We accumulated a number of large collapsed cardboard boxes and a few roles of tape, and took them with us to the corporate headquarters to reassemble there. After arriving our largest group of protesters proceeded to the main entrance and peacefully blocked the doors there, sort of as originally planned, while a few of us headed off toward secondary exits, each carrying a large empty cardboard box in our arms which we planned to pile up by the doors. Not much of a real hindrance true, but we figured at least they would make a momentary, visually interesting symbolic barrier if nothing else.

Turns out the corporation in question feared publicity more than a minor one day disruption of their activities, so they essentially ignored us at their main entrance and directed employees to use side entrances instead. But the strangest thing happened. As the first of our box carriers approached the first side entrance, a company employee quickly shut and locked that entrance from inside, I assume to keep us and our menacing empty boxes safely outside. By the time we made it to the third and final alternate entrance, it was all any of us could do to keep a straight face, because by then it was apparent that all it took to get this corporation to barricade their own entrance for us was the approach of a single straggly protester carrying an empty cardboard box. Wham! Instant lock down.

We never got as far as actually leaving any boxes at the corporation’s door steps, since they effectively closed off their own entrances for us at the mere sight of one. As a result the company never got to see that the threat we bore them was completely hollow. After a couple of hours of successfully playing this game we decided to conclude the protest while we were still ahead, and before anyone actually called our bluff. And we happily went home feeling mission accomplished; with little muss, no fuss, and no jail.

So now when I see Democrats in the Senate pull together a clear majority of Senators behind important legislation that they are confident that the American people strongly support, only to discover a minority of Republicans waving a failed cloture vote in their faces to conjure up the menacing threat of a certain endless filibuster, this is what I think of. I visualize Republican Minority Leader Mitch McConnell marching toward the Senate Democratic Caucus holding a large, empty cardboard box while Democrats scramble to shut down their own initiative in order to avoid it.

Why should Democrats fear an actual Filibuster more than the Republicans? If the Democratic leadership puts the Senate into 24 hour session, it is Republicans who have to make fools of themselves reading from cookbooks in the middle of the night. Forcing the Republicans to filibuster to stop Democratic legislation each time Democrats can’t swing 40 votes to end normal debate on a measure would, I concede, be overly extreme and likely to backfire against them. Never forcing Senate Republicans to follow through on their implied willingness to filibuster critical legislation, I believe, is just as extreme a misuse of majority power. It is a veiled surrender to the extortion of minority intimidation.

There is an important positive message sent when people show a willingness to stand up and fight for something they truly believe in, that to an extent is independent from concerns about the most likely ultimate outcome of that fight. Republicans for the moment are getting a free ride to send that message every time they defeat a motion for cloture on debate of a measure that has the clear support of a majority of the Senate. Republicans assert that they care so passionately about preventing some harm to our Republic that they will filibuster if need be to stop it, and Democrats have still not called that bluff. How many rounds of “we tried but they won’t let us” do you figure it takes before the public starts to hold a Democratic Congress in low regard? Think maybe it’s already gotten to that point? Might the public start to wonder, are Democrats trying hard enough?

Sometimes, not every time but sometimes, begging off from an important fight because it appears unlikely it can be won comes at a higher cost than literal defeat. Sometimes the message is more important than the outcome. All out no holds barred 24/7 filibusters are certainly moments of high political drama, but there are times that are ripe for such high drama, and we are now living in such a time.

It’s true that no one asked for my advice, but if you’ve read this far already I figure you probably won’t object strenuously if I give it. I urge Senate Democrats to go back to wherever it is that they dropped the Webb-Hagel Readiness Amendment after it fell four votes short of the 60 they needed to make it filibuster proof. I suggest that they pick it up and dust it off, maybe give it a few minor cosmetic changes so that they can technically call it “revised”, and then resubmit it to the Senate for renewed consideration. And I suggest they then call the Republican bluff to filibuster against the Webb-Hagel Readiness Amendment if a vote for cloture can not be obtained through less strenuous means.

I guarantee this is one fight that the Republican Party does not want to wage in the spotlight of a real filibuster. They do not want to explain, at filibuster length, how refusing to guarantee our brave and patriotic active duty troops as much time at home following deployment to a war zone as they actually spent in that war zone, before they get shipped back into a war zone again is actually “supporting our troops”. The time has come for Republicans to put up. Or shut up.

Senator Reid, hold your ground if Mitch McDonnell comes marching toward you holding a large cardboard box. This time accept what he has to offer, and call the Senate into 24 hour session, for the purpose of providing relief and a small measure of fairness to America’s brave men and women, who daily risk their lives for our freedom and security. Republicans have much more to fear from staging that filibuster than Democrats do. It would ratchet up the heat on all of their chicken hawk hypocrisy, and show America who really supports our troops, if you called that Republican bluff. It’s their ultimate nightmare. Harry, give them Hell.

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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Great Stuff!
Thanks!!
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