How much of President Bush's willingness to stay in Iraq is caused by his Religious convictions?

[bryant69]

Or do you think that is just a show for his base?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[H2O Man]

1. 50-75%

Good question.

[Demeter]

2. Bush Is in a Box of His Own Construction

and his delusions and mental incompetence prevent him from changing to adapt to change. It's all part of the anti-evolution gig: you aren't allowed to change your mind, even in the face of new or contradictory information. That's not a belief system, that's magical thinking.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. 0% - his religious convictions are as phoney as everything else

about him. There is nothing of any substance inside that shirt. There is no awareness able to 'will' anything. He is a sock puppet, a shill, a beard for the Texas Mafia and its Saudi and Anglo-Saxon allies and their vile plot to rule the planet.

[blogslut]

4. I don't care what his damned reasons are

He's wrong wrong wrong and he needs to knock it off.

[bryant69]

6. It's worthwhile to understand why he does things the way he does

and to educate the American People on that subject, so that they can avoid electing another person like him.

Bryant

[blogslut]

10. He does what he does because that's what they tell him to do

Do you honestly think George W. Useless actually makes policy?

[bryant69]

16. Yes - I think he is the executive; strongly influenced by Cheney to be sure

But yeah, I think he's running the show to a certain extent.

Bryant

[blogslut]

20. I don't

I think he takes a few meetings, and farms all the responsibilities and policy making out to his various handlers. He's in it for the cool airplane, the awesome house and the glory. Read Woodward's book State of Denial. Dubya let Rumsfeld basically assume the job of commander-in-chief.

[Robbien]

5. From rightwing Red State

I have long called for an immediate end to all Muslim immigration, or, failing that, for specific oaths of loyalty, taken on pain of perjury, for Muslims seeking to immigrate here: in fine, for institutionalized discrimination against the Islamic religion in our immigration policy, to put the matter in its starkest form. I have called for this in part because Europe is showing us, as a kind of omen, just how easily the growth of large Muslim populations can carry a society rapidly toward civil war. Is the prospect of civil war implausible? Only to the blind.

I have proposed the introduction of specific sedition laws that mention the Islamic religion by name, taking note of the uniquely pressing threat of the Jihad. Again, I think such legislation justified in part because throwing a man in prison for two years on a wrongful sedition conviction is indeed an injustice; but it is a pittance compared to what injustice might await that same man, and his family, when legislation is no longer an option, when anarchy and civil war are upon us. I say “in part” because there are other justifications as well: justifications not premised on speculation of civil war. One is that Jihad, quite aside from its threat to us, is a wicked doctrine and should not receive the protection of our laws. Another is that we can fight totalitarian Islam by prohibiting it, by letting its stand naked without the shelter of the civil liberties which it seeks to obliterate.

So if the huge hatred the right wing has against Muslims can be called "Religious Convictions", then yes. The reason the warmongers want to stay indefinitely in Iraq is because of religious convictions.

[ProfessorGAC]

7. He Has No Religious Convictions

And anyone who thinks he does has been fished in.
The Professor

[bryant69]

15. So anybody who doesn't think the way you do is a dupe?

Is Glenn Greenwald a dupe, in your opinion, Professor?

This has been the great unexamined issue of the Bush presidency -- the extent to which Bush's unwavering commitment to Middle East militarism is, as Bush himself has made clear, rooted in theological and religious convictions, not in pragmatic or geopolitical concerns. That Bush's foreign policy decision-making is grounded in absolute moral and theological convictions and therefore immune from re-examination or change is an argument I examine at length in A Tragic Legacy because it is one of the principal -- and most dangerous -- forces driving the Bush presidency.

At a September 2006 gathering of right-wing pundits, Bush waxed endlessly about his belief that the U.S. is currently in the midst of a Third Religious Awakening and that the wars over which he presides are a central part of that Awakening. At least in large part, Bush sees the "battles" he is waging in epic theological and religious terms, and as a result, political constraints and pragmatic limits are irrelevant to his actions. It is such an uncomfortable reality -- that religious fervor drives our wars and other foreign policy -- that it has been ignored almost completely over the last five years, even though ample evidence exists proving that it is true, beginning with his own continuous statements. - http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/07/17/brooks/index.html

Bryant

[ProfessorGAC]

18. Yes I Believe He Is

His actions clearly show there is no faith motivation in his behavior. No matter what he says, no matter how often he preaches to his own choir, no matter how one spins the potential psychopathy of a religious zealot, the actions still don't support any belief in a higher power, and certainly not of the teachings of Christ.

If Greenwald, and you, accept that Bush is a believer and a zealot, then yes, i think you've both been duped.
GAC

[bryant69]

19. I don't get this - what actions of his prove that he doesn't believe in God?

It can't be invading a Muslim nation, because we have the example of the Crusades to show that faith doesn't prevent that.

Bryant

[ProfessorGAC]

21. Please

The worship of money. The self-absolution from responsibility and blame. The embrace of sloth.

The list is too long, and isn't necessary. You know the list as well as i do. You apparently don't want to bother with it.
The Professor

[bryant69]

23. It's not necessary to provide proof for your theory

There's a word for that,I suppose.

But let me deal with the three you do provide

The Worship of Money - I'm not sure he does worship money; I know it's important to him, but it's not like he's ever gone without, and it's not like he ever would even if he hadn't become President and Governer.

The Self-absolution from responsibility and blame - motivated, in my opinion, from his faith. Bush's whole life has been getting into trouble and then getting out of trouble by being rescued by powerful friends (often friends of his Father, to be sure); his escape from alcoholism seems to have followed the same pattern in his mind. He believes in a God that rescues him, as a sort of cosmic get out of jail free card. Seen in that light, he's just waiting for God to bail him out of the mess he's made in Iraq.

The Embrace of Sloth - Again, see above. He believes in a childish version of God that takes care of his problems; that doesn't believe that the faith isn't genuine.

Bryant

[ProfessorGAC]

26. Sorry, Can't Agree

And, you can leave your veiled insults for someone else.

I'm not basin it on faith. I did provide examples. You just didn't like them.

I just don't want to spend the time belaboring the obvious for your amusement. What i said was that three examples were enough, since i didn't think it necessary to go on with more of them. That's not refusing to provide proof. It's called prioritization.

Like i said, you can spin his behavior to reflect a belief in God, if you wish. That's what i call being fished in. Because one CAN find some way to describe his behavior as rooted in zealotry, doesn't mean it's really rooted there.

I think he is willfully taking advantage of his life's position, and uses his God-talk as cover. So, who's right? Occam's razor would suggest i am. I think he knows that his FAMILY would always get him out of his troubles, but as a pol, if he says that, he couldn't get elected as a dog catcher. He'd be a silverspoon twit that can't handle his own life. But, if he does the Jesus thing, people will swoon. This discussion is proof.

As to his worship to money; we'll have to agree to disagree. Cheating one's own partners, and bilking investors, twice, in such a way that one is the only person to walk away with a profit, when one is already filthy rich, is greed and money worship, clearly manifest.


I'm out.
GAC

[bryant69]

29. You have an interesting argument style

If you don't want to discuss issues, why come to a discussion board for one thing? I mean part of coming to a discussion board is the opportunity to meet people who disagree with you, argue it out, and then come to some sort of answer. If you just want to hear yourself speak, I suggest you start a blog - they're great.

I will respectfully submit that while I believe Bush is motivated, in part, by religion; I don't see that as a saving grace in anyway. As the scriptures say you judge a tree by it's fruits; Bush's religious convictions may be deeply felt (I think they are) but they are still clearly destructive.

Bryant

[Lilith Velkor]

27. All of those are components of Calvinist/Pauline Christianity

The doctrine of predestination states that God blesses the righteous with money and curses the wicked with poverty.

It's twisted, but it is a religious belief.

[bryant69]

31. Exactly. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

34. None of his actions prove or disprove his belief in god.

You know what he believes? Or you have an opinion about what he might believe? I have an opinion that he is an habitual liar, a fraud, an empty suit, and believes nothing even when he manages to rise the level of self contemplation that allows for an examination of one's beliefs. That is my opinion based on seven years of watching this truly awful human being spout inane lies promoting and/or defending whatever it is he has been told to promote or defend. I can not prove what is going on inside that head and nor can you. So we are left with a poll asking our opinions. That you think this is a man of faith and convictions I find amusing.

[bryant69]

39. Well I believe that by reading what a person says and

listening to what they say you can get an idea of what sort of person that person is. In an absolute sense all humans are unknowable; but that doesn't stop me from listening to an Al Gore or a Newt Gingrich or a Michael Moore or a Mitt Romney or a Cindy Sheehan or a Rush Limbaugh and forming an idea about what sort of person they are. In this case, my take (and it's not my take alone), is that President Bush's peculiar religious beliefs are genuine and are affecting his actions.

Note once again that I don't believe this justifies President Bush's actions in anyway, shape, or form; rather it's more of a cautionary tale about letting your ideology dictate your actions.

Bryant

[Renew Deal]

8. We wouldn't be in Iraq if he listened to his faith.

[madokie]

9. there's no religion there

only hot air and bullshit

[marmar]

11. The religious facade is a fraud.....

just like it is with every other Reich wing asshole, from Ralph Reed to Pat Robertson. In the end, they're a bunch of power- and money-craving garden-variety assholes.

[liberal N proud]

12. I voted 0 but he has faith in the corporations and the PNAC

Oil is his God

[BOSSHOG]

13. Incredibly interesting

bush, a total failure of a human being, has to fake christianity because christians like the mass killings of non-white non-christian Iraqis. Wow, and some just don't understand my skepticism. Hell, the next thing ya know some family values christian senator will be found with a hooker.

[soleft]

14. It's not faith - it's a messiah complex

I have no doubt Bush believes. And when he says he wants to democratize the middle east, what he means is he wants to Christianize the middle east - because as far as Bush is concerned, the only way to be saved is through Christianity.

[UTUSN]

17. Oh-pul-EEZE!!1 The a-hole has NO convictions except revenge & power n/t

[KittyWampus]

22. Bush mistakes delusions of grandeur for religious conviction and the voice of Cheney

as Divine Guidance.

Asshole

[Jack Rabbit]

24. I don't know and I don't care

We should be more concerned about how to end Bush's war, not what motivates Bush to continue it. I, for one, am convinced that ending the war can only be accomplished by toppling the Regime through the impeachment of both Bush and Cheney. As long as either one of them has power, they will continue the war and use bogus arguments in defense of their actions, regardless of whether Congress votes to bring troops home or cuts funding altogether.

[bryant69]

25. We can be concerned with both

As i said above, understanding how we got here can maybe prevent us from getting here again.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Jack Rabbit]

28. Response

That would be something for historian to argue. Our immediate task is to topple the Bush Regime before Bush or Cheney further escalate the war in Iraq or widen it to Iran.

As for the future, I would again be less concerned about the religious convictions of the President than about his views of executive power. A candidate, either Republican or Democrat or Green or Blue or whatever, who hints at claiming broad power for the chief executive, as are claimed by the Bush Regime, is unlikely to get my vote under any circumstances.

Of course, the candidate could dress such an argument in Biblical language, but it would be all the same to me.

[bryant69]

30. I would argue that ideology of any kind

if excessive would provide the rationale for a unitary executive. If you believe that you have the right answer and that all the answers are necessarily and obviously wrong than there is little value in allowing those people who have the wrong answer to participate in the process.

Bryant

[Ino]

32. I'm torn

I can't decide if his faith is all show, or if his conversations with god go like this...

"God, if you don't think I should invade (fill in the blank), give me a sign. (pause) Alrighty then!"

[Lilith Velkor]

33. 25-49%

Childish stubbornness is the dominant factor IMFO.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. His "faith" is nearly as shallow as his intellect.

The depth of which is measured in millimeters.

[BuyingThyme]

36. RELIGION = CORPORATION

[baldguy]

37. 100%

He warships power & the Almighty Dollar.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

38. A wise man once pointed out that all threads of this nature belong in the Religion forum.

[bryant69]

40. If you are refering to me,

I said that posts of a specifically and solely religious nature need to be in the religion forum; this is a poll on a major political figure and his religion and so it belongs here. In my opinion.

By the same token a discussion of the religious aspects of a policy debate would belong here, while a post just pissing on or defending Christians without reference to a specific policy or politician would go to the religion forum.

Bryant

[markk]

41. by religious convictions

you mean his belief that government is a business to be exploited for his friends? 100%

[bryant69]

42. This has been suggested several times

No I mean his actual religious convictions - i.e. his Christian convictions, such as they are.

Bryant

[PA Democrat]

43. Nope, if his stay the course mentality was truly due to religious convictions, it would be

a first for him. Bush claimed that Jesus was his favorite philosopher and yet his actions completely defy the teachings of Christ. He chooses corporate profits over health care for children, war over peace, vengeance over forgiveness, tax cuts for the wealthy over feeding the poor, etc., etc.

Bush suffers from a god complex. He is incapable of changing course because he is incapable of admitting that he has made a mistake. Even his claims that his god speaks to him is pure arrogance and an extension of that delusion.

[bryant69]

45. Millions of self-describe Christians in America also

choose corporate profits over health care for children
war over peace
vengeance over forgiveness
tax cuts for the wealthy over feeding the poor.

Are you going to say that none of them are Christians?

Bryant

[PA Democrat]

46. They can call themselves whatever they like, but according to the tenets of Christianity

preemptive war is wrong. Turning your back on the poor, the sick, the elderly is wrong. If they say that those actions are guided by their faith, they are delusional. It's not for me to say who is a "Christian" and who is not. Most people who describe themselves as Christians would admit that they have "sinned". But they would be delusional if they used their religious convictions as an excuse for taking actions which are clearly defined as wrong according to the words of Christ himself.

[GreenTea]

44. Get fucking real! It's ALL about MONEY! Corp. stealing our billons in tax dollars & Oil companies

stealing it via Iraqi unmetered oil...It only about money...war for profit!

There's still trillions of dollars (much of it our tax dollars) to be made if they can keep the occupation going!!!