WHY is noone making a fuss about the new passport laws?

[Karenca]

It appears that the only reason this is going into law is because when they reinstate the draft (which, will probably happen if things
keep going on they like are) is to keep any potential draft dodgers from leaving the US.

You can come into the country illegally, yet easily,
but you can't leave? -- even to take a short trip to the islands????

This is bullshit --- just like the "No Child Left Behind" law,
which was really passed to keep track of fresh 18 year olds
to fight the never-ending-war.

[cui bono]

1. Plus they're going to be putting radio freq chips in them...

[Karenca]

2. Sorry,

I edited that.

Yes -- The RFC's - 1984. :(

[RC]

5. They already are, starting from last year.

[leftchick]

20. they did?

I thought it was as of January 2007? Crap, I had my sons' passports done in the fall thinking I was ahead of the asshole fascists. Should I nuke them in a microwave?

:shrug:

[Indy Lurker]

30. build you own RFID zapper

https://events.ccc.de/congress/2005/wiki/RFID-Zapper(EN)

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

50. or smash it w/ a hammer

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

3. Why Not Just Get A Passport?

Personally, I have no problem with it.

[bdamomma]

4. maybe it's because only 27% of Americans have passports

that is a very sad percentage of Americans.

[DaveJ]

6. Why sad?

It's sad because people do not have the freedom to take trips. For instance in the last 20 years I have had just one week vacation provided by an employer. Hopefully that will change now with my new job. But the point is that most people can't afford to travel outside the country. Even if I had enough money I don't know if I would want to waste fossil fuels just to vacation.

[Karenca]

7. "maybe it's because

only 27% of Americans have passports".

No, that is NOT the reason!

[bdamomma]

16. I am only saying that only 27% of Americans have passports when some other countries citizens

have 93% of passport possession. why only so few Americans have passports, a passport is almost as important as a drivers license.

[Sapere aude]

11. Most people don't need a passport, why should they get one?

[Solo_in_MD]

12. Passports are cheaper than drivers licenses in most states

$9.70/year or $6.7/year on renewal (20 year life). Cheaper than most state drivers licenses or ID cards. Real ID compliant so police agencies and airports accept it as well.

[Clark2008]

22. What state do you live in?

My DL is $21 every six years, but a passport is $75-$100.

[Karenca]

25. $100.00 in New York, $67.00 for renewal, plus the cost of

the photo.

[Canuckistanian]

44. What? That's outrageous

Another example of keeping the poor out of touch, locked into their small, tiny world.

[etherealtruth]

55. Oh my ....

I just renewed my DL in Michigan ................for $18

[Solo_in_MD]

56. Passports renew for $67 and are good for 10 years, $6.70 per year

[etherealtruth]

57. My children and I have passports ....

I'm just amazed at the cost to renew a Driver's License in NY (compared to MI)

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

59. That sound high... cite?

I'm googling madly.

[Meshuga]

8. Yep

You need a passport to leave the country unlike in the past when you could just walk out with your driver's license. This is slowly turning into the old Soviet Union where people were not allowed to leave. What a tight grip!

[Karenca]

9. Exactly---

And then adding the chips to them!!
This is all so fucking scary.
Do you think we'll ever return to normal, or is it too late? :scared:

[bdamomma]

17. it's their way to control the masses.

[crickets]

10. People have been making noise. ICAO isn't listening.

ACLU Comments on Electronic Passports to State Department
Re: Electronic Passports, RIN 1400-AB93
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/15306res20050404.html

ACLU Seeks Information On Government Tests of Controversial Passport Computer Chips
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/15317prs20050426.html

more
http://www.aclu.org/search/search_wrap.html?account=436ac9516921&q=RFID&imageField.x=27&imageField.y=6&imageField=search


Big Brother's Passport to Pry
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/nov2004/nf2004115_1663_db016.htm

But the law didn't specify what information should be on the chip, or what type of chip must be included. In what critics call policy laundering, that decision was ostensibly left to an obscure U.N.-affiliated agency, the International Civil Aviation Organization. For the Bush Administration, "the advantage of using the ICAO is that they have none of the transparency of a U.S. government agency," says Barry Steinhardt, director of the American Civil Liberty Union's technology and liberty program. Groups like the ACLU were shut out of the process.


What do you want to bet the REAL ID will have chips as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act

Why the 'Real ID' Act is a real mess
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/08/12/ramasastry.ids/index.html

Many commentators predict that radio frequency identification (RFID) tags will be placed in our licenses. (Other alternatives include a magnetic strip or enhanced bar code). In the past, the Department of Homeland Security has indicated it likes the concept of RFID chips.

I thought Maine was the only state standing up against this, but apparently not.

Within a week of Maine's action, lawmakers in Georgia, Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico, Vermont and Washington state also balked at Real ID. They are expected soon to pass laws or adopt resolutions declining to participate in the federal identification network.

Sanity in my state, thank goodness. Yikes. And the passport thing, at the very least, is setting up all US citizens abroad to wear a large RF bullseye. It's ludicrous.

[Solo_in_MD]

13. Passport laws = draft registration? I don't see the link there

[Karenca]

14. Link = You will need a passport to LEAVE the country.

During the Viet Nam War, thousands of draft-dodgers fled to Canada.


Simple.

[Solo_in_MD]

15. No, just to get back in

To the best of my knowledge, currently you are not "logged out" of the US, but you are "logged in" when you return.

[Karenca]

28. No, please look at post #26. eom

[dysfunctional press]

53. if you DRIVE to/from canada, NO PASSPORT is required.

nt

[crickets]

31. I thought it was that way too, but

in poking around, I stumbled upon:

http://travel.state.gov/passport/fri/pubs/pubs_854.html

With certain exceptions, it is against U.S. law to enter or leave the country without a valid passport. Generally, for tourists, the exceptions refer to direct travel within U.S. Territories or between North, South, or Central America (except Cuba). However, airlines and cruise-lines sometimes require their passengers to have passports when flying or cruising to and from locations in these areas.

Hmmm.

There's more:

DHS dismisses the right to travel
http://papersplease.org/wp/2006/12/05/dhs-dismisses-the-right-to-travel/

Rejecting the objections raised in comments by the Identity Project and others, the DHS Bureau of Customs and Border Protection has ordered that all travelers between the USA and Canada, Mexico, or other countries in the Western Hemisphere, where passports weren’t previously required, will have to present current valid passports to enter or leave the USA by air or sea, effective January 23, 2007.

“Your papers, please!”

Orders applying the same requirement to travel by land across the U.S. borders will follow, no later than June 1, 2009.


What's REALLY scary is this:

We're All Prisoners, Now: US Citizens to be Required "Clearance" to Leave USA
http://sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3023

Why might the HSA deny you permission to leave-or enter-the United States? No one knows, because the entire clearance procedure would be an administrative determination made secretly, with no right of appeal.

U.S. citizens to be required "clearance" to leave the United States
http://liberalcandy.blogspot.com/2006/11/us-citizens-to-be-required-clearance-to.html

“Mother, may I?”
http://papersplease.org/wp/2006/10/12/mother-may-i/

Should you have to ask for permission from the government before you are allowed to get on a plane or cruise ship?...

This is the third of three identification-related “rulemakings” in the last month and a half in which the DHS has proposed to restrict the right to travel. IDP has filed formal objections to each of these proposals:

* Expansion of US-VISIT fingerprinting, photographing, and lifetime dossiers on visitors to include permanent U.S. residents (green card holders)
* The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative to require passports for travel between the U.S., Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Latin America
* Conversion of the Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) for international ships and plane travel into an advance permission system.


There's a pdf file linked above. I couldn't get it to load, so here's the HTMLized version.
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:MtiwJQ8pYiQJ:hasbrouck.org/IDP/IDP-APIS-comments.pdf+http://hasbrouck.org/IDP/IDP-APIS-comments.pdf

I haven't had time to read it all yet, but it's verrry interesting so far.


DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
Bureau of Customs and Border Protection
PROPOSED RULES Air commerce and vessels in foreign and domestic trades: <19 CFR Parts 4 and 122>
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20061800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/06-6237.htm

SUMMARY: This rule proposes to amend existing Bureau of Customs and Border Protection regulations concerning electronic manifest transmission requirements relative to passengers, crew members, and non-crew members traveling onboard international commercial flights and voyages....

Therefore, CBP has concluded that the prevention of a high-risk passenger from boarding an aircraft is the appropriate level of security in the commercial air travel environment. Manifest data received and vetted prior to passenger boarding will enable CBP to attain this level of security. Further, this vetting of passengers on international flights should eliminate the need for passenger carriers to conduct watch list screening of these passengers, upon publication and implementation of a final rule. Accordingly, with this proposed rule, CBP is proposing two transmission options for air carriers to select from at their discretion: (i) the submission of complete manifests no later than 60 minutes prior to departure or (ii) transmitting passenger data as individual, real-time transactions, i.e., as each passenger checks in, up to but no later than 15 minutes prior to departure. Under both options, the carrier will not permit the boarding of a passenger unless the passenger has been cleared by CBP.


Uh, this rule change was news to me. Has anyone else heard about this? Has the rule actually been adopted? Overly invasive IDs (not the need for ID per se but the new "data storage" versions) and travel restrictions are hot button issues in my book; sincerest apologies for being so link-happy tonight. :blush:

Edit to add one last link

USA to ground all travellers until 'cleared'
http://www.theregister.com/2006/11/06/grounded_until_further_notice/

It's The Register. I couldn't resist. I promise I'll stop now! Yipe! *duck and cover*

[donco6]

18. ? I've never had to show my passport to LEAVE.

Is this a change?

[Toucano]

33. When did you last leave?

You have to show you passport at the ticket counter and at the gate so they can be sure you meet the entry requirements of the country you're going to.

I don't know if they ask for a passport when you're departing if you're going to a country that doesn't require one for entry.

As I understand it, the new law requires US citizens entering the US to have passports. I don't think they'll stop you from leaving. You just will have a hassle getting back in.

[Karenca]

36. I always have to show my passport ---

As does every other traveler.

You can't get on the plane without producing it.

And I travel more than occasionally ---
Last trip to the UK.
a few months ago.

[donco6]

48. Well, I can assure you, I didn't.

Went to Virgin Islands a few months ago. I had to show picture ID, but not passport.

Went to Mexico last November. Had to show picture ID, not passport.

Guess I'm just lucky that way.

And yes I know the law has changed since December. And yes I have a passport.

Sheesh.

[Bill McBlueState]

19. link?

Nothing I've seen indicates you need a passport to leave. Just to get back in.

[Clark2008]

26. I went to Mexico last year - had to show it to leave AND get back in.

[dysfunctional press]

52. did you fly or drive?

nt

[pink-o]

21. I work for the airlines, and the govtmt is always throwing crap at us

...but personally I think this is a good thing. If you never leave the USA you don't need to ever apply for a passport--but why wouldn't someone want to travel? Think about it: citizens of the EU don't need passports anymore to move across Europe, but just about every European has one. I've checked in so many arrogant Americans going to Mexico who tell me they don't need to show no stinking documents just to go to Mexico or the Caribbean--after all, they're AMERICAN!!!!!! Their driver's license should be enough, right???

Yet, a Mexican, Canadian or Caribbean citizen can't enter our country without the proper documents. I'm sick of the double-standard and the attitude of these idiots.

Also, people who are told they only need their birth certificates usually bring the hospital copies (cute little footprints, but hardly a legal document) or else they photocopy the ones they get from the state or county registry. Standardising everyone with one document for travel is an idea that should have happened a long time ago.

The conspiracy theorists are gonna come out of the woodwork on this, of course. But when you think about how isolated and insulated Americans are, the good outweighs the bad.

Oh, and BTW, you ABSOULTELY MUST SHOW A PASSPORT TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY!!!! At least by airplane. Otherwise, if you don't have it, you'll be deported, sent back, fined and the airlines will be punished as well.

[treestar]

27. You don't need it to leave so much as you need it to get into another

country. Most countries don't require Americans to get visas, but they would require a passport.

Canada and Mexico did not demand even a passport of Americans, though that may have changed recently. Therefore, an American should be able to go to Canada or Mexico without a passport.

We are screwn when they start demanding that we "check out" or get "exit visas." Demanding the passport would be a form of exit visa. At this point, they are already refusing to issue passports to people who are behind on child support obligations and those convicted of aggravated felonies. But you know that can change and be expanded.

[Karenca]

29. Well, that is what I just heard on

Air America - that's why I posted.

It was said that you DO need a passport to leave.

You always have to show your pasport when you travel overseas
before you leave the US,
so.
if it's now going to be required for travel to Mexico, The Islands, Canada,
etc,
why would it be any different?

You will have to show your passport leaving and entering the US..

[treestar]

38. They are wrong, That's not the law

In fact, you can return without it, it's just illegal. That is, they have to let you back in, but they will fine you.

But you don't have to have it to leave legally. As a practical matter you might, because the country on the other end usually fines airlines (as the US does) for bringing someone they have to deport, so the airlines make sure you have whatever passport/visa is needed before they let you get on.

[Bill McBlueState]

43. exactly

I made the mistake of showing up at the Detroit airport for a flight to Calgary without my passport. The airline staff wouldn't let me board the plane, but at no point did a US border official demand my passport. It's a requirement the airlines have to avoid getting fined; not a requirement the government has.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

23. Because it's a bunch of pissy whining about nothing.

Only an American would bitch about having to have a passport to leave and re-enter the country. Jesus Fuck, welcome to life post AD 1750.

[pink-o]

54. thank you!

...my point exactly in an earlier post.

And whoever said that the US would let someone thru customs and immigration without a passport is playing a little loose with the truth. If for some reason you lost your passport between leaving a foreign country and entering the US, the immigration agents will stick you in a holding cell for as long as it takes for you to come up with SOMETHING that proves you're a citizen. That could be calling the State Dept (during office hours, of course) or getting a family member to bring the proper documents to the airport. Yeah, eventually you'll be allowed to enter, but the process could take days. If y'all wanna test the laws or prove something, knock yourselves out--but I guarantee it won't be pleasant.

WTF is the big deal about getting a passport? I've had one since I was 11 years old, a very very long time. We have enough govtmt shit to deal with--don't fight unnecessary battles.

[LoZoccolo]

24. Because we would rather talk about the Snickers bar. n/t

[BeHereNow]

35. How I love you for that post...N/T

BHN

[WI_DEM]

32. If the draft is brought back the members of congress who vote to do so would be in

serious jeopardy in their re-election bids, so I still say that the draft is not coming back. These people got the message of '06 regarding Iraq, and they aren't about to compound it by bringing back something which would be even more unpopular like the draft. Even most Republicans understand this.

[oldlady]

34. I really irritated airline workers recently

traveling to Mexico & back, without a passport. Every one of the employees made it plain that although they knew we were still 7 days from the legal change, they were all pissed as heck that we were traveling with state issued driver's licenses and birth certificates (the real ones, not the cute ones). Hey, I didn't write the law, I'm just following it.

The expectation of persons on this board that everyone would have a passport boggles my mind. But then I live near Milwaukee, where 23% of citizens over the age of 65 have no driver's license AND no photo identification; 43% of Hispanic, 47% of Black, and 85% of White adults have no driver's license, with the situation being even worse among younger persons: between the ages of 18-24 only 26% of African-Americans & 34% of Hispanics have driver's licenses.

This is research that was done to counter-act a push for a requirement to present a driver's license at the voting booth. http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/ETI/barriers/DriversLicense.pdf

I know some people with passports & most without. Unless they are newly immigrated, the surest measure of who does/doesn't have a passport is income. HEY-- maybe all this RFID chip stuff will make the richest easier to find for the draft?? *haha* I make myself laugh...

Peace:

[Generator]

37. You need one to go to France

Always have. I thought liberals loved France. Jeez. ( I have been more than once myself so there!)

[Karenca]

41. France, Italy, Spain. etc.

Always had.
I'm surprised not everyone is aware of that.

[Traxus]

39. In case of draft: Smash chip with hammer.

Read an article in wired magazine about it. Microwaving will toast your entire passport. Find the chip and use a hammer. Only do this in emergency, lest homeland security find out.

[tnlefty]

45. Welcome to DU, Traxus!

Hammers are useful tools. :hi:

[Vadem]

40. Where did this noone come from? There is no word called Noone!

I have seen this word in so many posts that I feel I have to speak out: noone is not a word! The words you are trying to convey are "no one"! Please, it is two words: no one! Not noone!

Thank you so much for paying attention and hopefully discontinuing the practice of this noone bull!!

[Karenca]

42. You're right.

I wrote that, and wow, that does look funny!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

49. Thank you for that correction. I'm a grammar/spelling nazi myself.

"Noone" is the last name of the lead singer of Herman's Hermits, I believe.
His name is Peter Noone. Only correct usage of that combination of letters that I know of.

[tnlefty]

46. Unless I heard this incorrectly, it's different when traveling to places

where passports weren't required before, i.e., crossing the border into Canada or Mexico, the Bahamas, US territories when a citizen wasn't flying to get there.

While merely showing a driver's license was acceptable before in these circumstances passports will now be required, or did I misunderstand? I didn't like the sound of it either.

[Karenca]

47. No, you heard correctly.

And I don't like the sound of this either.
It all corresponds with wire-tapping, no child left behind,
hidden cameras in the street, and all the other
crapthis administration
has put upon us that infringes on our rights and has shredded the constitution.

We're so screwed.

[dysfunctional press]

51. you DO NOT need a passport to LEAVE the country.

only to get back in.

HOWEVER- if you are flying, most reputable airlines will require that you have the proper documentation for your return when you first depart...but thoase are THEIR restrictions, NOT the governments.

[justiceischeap]

58. Because it's hard to keep up with what to make a fuss over

With this administration. They've given us so much to fuss over it's almost overwhelming.