Satirical Movie "CSA" - What if South Had Won the Civil War?

[JPZenger]

A brilliant satire is now available on DVD. I found it at Blockbuster. It is CSA - Confederate States of America. It is a brilliant satire of about what the US would be like today if the South had won "the war of Northern aggression" and had taken over the north.

The movie at times is hilarious, and at other times is disturbing.

The film is set up like a historical documentary, with inspiration from Ken Burn's films.

The US has been replaced by the government of the Confederacy. Slavery has never been abolished. Abraham Lincoln had to sneak out of Washington in black face, with the help of Harriet Tubman and the Underground Railroad.

As part of reconstruction, the union soldiers are memorialized as brave but misguided. Slavery is removed from the text books as a cause for the Civil War.

The movie works real events in US history into the alternate reality. The Confederacy tries to colonize Central and South America, which the commentary says was their actual intent. South Americans are forced to eat grits for breakfast everyday.

The abolitionists had to flee to Canada. Later, an anti-slavery terrorist group operates from Canada, causing the Confederacy to build a giant fortified wall along the Canadian border. The TV show Cops is about capturing runaway slaves.

The Confederacy declares itself to be a Christian nation. They ask the Jews to leave, but then allow some Jews to stay on a Jewish reservation on Long Island.

In 1935, Hitler visits the Confederacy. The Confederate leaders convince Hitler to enslave the Jews instead of killing them. Because of isolationism, the US never enters the war against Germany.

Women don't get the vote until the 1960s. The first President who makes any effort to end slavery, John F. Kennedy, is assasinated.

The Slave Shopping Network is broadcast on TV. They introduce a family that is "perfect for the home, office or industry." You can either buy a family of four together or you can break up the set.

There also are commercials for racist products that are based upon actual products sold during the early 1900s, such as Darkie toothpaste.

The commentary by the director/writer on the DVD is also worth listening to.

[qnr]

1. Yeah, it's a good one :) n/t

[MedleyMisty]

2. Hmm

I think I like Guns of the South better as alternative history. The description of a slave auction in that book almost made me puke.

[DemoTex]

5. "Guns of the South" was a weird book.

An alternate history story set during the American Civil War, the story deals with a group of time-traveling Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging members from 2014 (who conceal their true identities while restating their acronym as "America Will Break"). Led by Andries Rhoodie, they wish to alter the outcome of the Civil War and, as a result, insure the success of their own cause in the future. In order to do this, they provide the South with a large number of AK-47s. To all but a few Confederate leaders, who are told the truth, they are known as "Rivington men" after the (fictional) North Carolina town where they set up their base. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guns_of_the_South )

[VTMechEngr]

7. That was an interesting book.

I picked it up in a bookstore and was hooked from page 1.

[IDemo]

11. I read that book a while ago

I bought it because I'm a fan of both historical novels and time travel. After getting into the book, it became a bit obvious (to me, anyway) that the author regretted it was only fiction.

[NeedleCast]

18. I think you read into it something that wasn't there

Just my opinion, I don't know Turtledove or anything, but I've read a LOT of his books. He's also written an aleternative history of World War II (in which aliens invade earth in 1942, changing everything) and a serious of fantasy-fiction books based on World War II. He's also written a very long series of books which was based on the outcome of Guns of the South where the confederacy and the US fight several wars and take different sides during WW-I and WW-II. I've never seen any indication that this author wishes the south had won.

[AllegroRondo]

39. I agree

Turtledove writes great war. He has a knack for juggling dozens of main characters and points of view, and knitting them all into a cohesive story.

Im currently reading his "great war" series, about what WW1 would have looked like if the south had won the civil war. Some really neat ideas there. At the end of book one, the slaves in the south have started a massive communist uprising.

But I never saw any evidence that makes me think he wanted the south to win, other than that it gives him some great stuff to write about.

[IDemo]

42. Sorry, but that was definitely the impression I had

I don't recall enough of the particulars since it has been a few years since I read it, but I remember thinking long before I finished (and yes, I did finish the book) that Turtledove was off my reading list from then on.

[JHB]

40. That's a conclusion which makes me think...

...you didn't "get into the book" at all. It's hardly a "neoConfederate wet dream" book.

[tularetom]

3. Years ago, we had to do a paper on this subject in HS

My hypothesis was that the region today would be governed and controlled today by blacks much like most of southern Africa, after a series of slave uprisings. It would be a third world country right on the borders of the US. And it would be causing all kinds of problems for us. There would be a steady stream of white refugees pouuring over the borders and these people wold have difficulty adjusting to their lowly status as manual laborers and farm workers.

Needless to say, my paper was not well received.

[rasputin1952]

20. I did too, in HS in NYC...I also did a college paper on what most

likely would have become of Reconstruction if Lincoln were not assassinated.

In essence, the South would not have invaded the North, they did not have any international backing, and they had nothing at the end of the war. The best they would have gotten was a Third World country based on agriculture, and they would have eventually be starved into oblivion. Slavery most likely would have died off, but it might have actually expanded because the white male population was decimated. In any case, without industry and support, they would have depleted the soil to the point where weeds wouldn't grow, much less cotton or crops.

In scenario #2, if Lincoln had lived...Reconstruction would have gone far faster and far more aid would have been sent to the South. There would have been resistance from congress, but Lincoln would have prevailed. The hatred both side felt, was more fringe than central, but it was still something to be dealt with. Lincoln had a good plan evolving, one shot put everything into a horrid downward spiral. Some Southerners cheered, but they did it very quietly, most knew that his would not go well as far a Reconstruction went. Odd that the only time Booth showed any courage at all during the war, was that one night a Ford's Theater, and it was disastrous.

[Paladin]

4. Great Mockumentary

It ought to be required viewing for the "Southern Heritage" types who still mope about losing the Civil War......

[glowing]

6. If the south had won, would they have taken over the North?

Didn't they want to secede? Wouldn't there be 2 countries north and south?

And shrimp and cheese grits is so awesome...

[lurky]

10. Gettysburg ain't the South...

I'm not convinced the South would have stopped at secession, but someone with more historical knowledge might be able to clarify.

Grits are one of the great accomplishments of Southern culture! :-)

[glowing]

12. Perhaps. If they had stayed in the south, they would have won. n/t

[JPZenger]

32. I believe their strategy was to threaten Washington

I believe the South's strategy around the time of Gettysburg was to threaten Washington and Harrisburg (and the railroad bridges) and thereby pressure the North to negotiate. I believe the South's goal was to remain independent, not to take over the north. If Longstreet's plan had been listened to by Lee, it may have worked.

However, the movie has the south take over the north in order to make points that racism has been a problem throughout the whole US. It would have been too easy for them to make a movie that just bashes the South.

[AlinPA]

8. I watched it last week. A lot of attention was given to the slavery (OK), but

I wish it had aimed at the difference in economy, culture , religion. That would have been entertaining too.

[melody]

9. *sigh* I have ranted on this thing so many times, I give up

My Civil War veteran ancestors all fought on the Confederate side. Every single
one of them. One was an abolitionist. He was from the Appalachians and was
descended from Scots-Irish slaves.

My grandparents were solid liberal Democrats who were ahead of their time in all
aspects of the civil rights movement. And they were as "southern" as any southern
belle.

I suspect, if the CSA had won, the country would be pretty much the same as it is now.
Let's see, who are some of those evil southerners? Oh, yeah, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter,
Al Gore, etc, etc, etc ...

[mitchum]

14. And if the confederacy had won, the greatest southerner of all would...

have been allowed to realize his full potential as quite a good cook.
"I swunny Martin Luther, you sure can fry up some chicken, boy!"

[melody]

17. I think that's a simple-minded northern bias

It's the same nonsense Canadians spew at Americans and Americans snarl at the French, etc, etc.

If you need to feel better than somebody else, it's the kind of crap you reach for.

[mitchum]

19. Born in SC to natives and have spent 43 of my 45 years in the south...

so it can hardly be northern bias, can it?
It's hilarity, not hate

[melody]

21. Sad to see you hate your own culture

Northern bias or not

[mitchum]

25. Not true, I love jazz, blues, rockandroll, Wm Faulkner, Tennessee Williams...

Richard Wright, Harry Crews, etc...
i think those are all products of southern culture, are they not?
I just don't really care for institutional racism, feudalism, religious fanaticism, and anti intellectualism.

Food for thought concerning the idea of southern culture/values: Think of all of the white southerners who are considered extraordinary. Now, think of the meaning of the word "extraordinary"
Hmmm...

[melody]

27. I'm not talking about institutional racism, feudalism, religious fanaticism, and anti intellectualis

Obviously, in mentioning the people I did, I was talking about those elements of the white south beyond that. The "north" has its share of racism (including a strong role in perpetuating slavery) and fanaticism of every kind. And your remarks, in disagreement with mine, seemed to suggest you were classing all southern white culture with the "bad guys". Then of course there's the African and Native American southern cultures that extend beyond that, but we were discussing the question of the CSA and its implications. Bringing anything else up as if to make a flip retort is what is "extraordinary". ;)

[mitchum]

46. But on the political spectrum, Carter, Gore, and Clinton were considered...

to be moderate Dems, rather than progressives. Would that have something to do with the electorate to which they had to appeal? Yes, we have made progress in the south, but it sure as hell takes a long time when you're taking baby steps.
I don't class all southern white culture as "bad" That's why I have Faulkner, Crews, Capote, and Williams there :)
But I always do, and will continue to, point out the African American contributions to "southern culture" Why?
a)it's true
b)I really like those contributions
c)by reminding people that African Americans are also southerners, it renders even more ridiculous the notion that Civil War necrophilia and the flying of that rag are expressions of southern pride and heritage, not nostalgia for oppression.

[melody]

47. Well, you haven't mentioned Native Americans however

Does that mean you discount our contributions? ;)

[mitchum]

49. Hell no, my lovely cheekbones and nose are due to my great...

grandmother's contributions :)
When my dad was a teenager in the 50s, his yearbook photos look like "Cochise goes to high school"

[DemBones DemBones]

29. Think of all the white Northerners who are

considered extraordinary. Now, think of the meaning of the word "extraordinary."
Hmmm...

[mitchum]

45. Let's see...extraordinary means "out of the ordinary"...

Carter, Gore, King, John Lewis, Faulkner, Williams, and others are considered to be "extraordinary southerners" because they did not embrace the worldview of the "ordinary southerner"- The Talmadges, Tillmans, Thurmonds, Wallaces and all of their poor deluded minions.
One small addition: if you are not familiar with Carter's career as a Georgia poltician, Jimmy was a whichever way the wind is blowing "man of principle" Also, a vicious political infighter.

[DemBones DemBones]

28. Is the moon full? These anti-South rants come around

pretty regularly.

[melody]

31. Yup, seems that way. lol n/t

[mitchum]

13. Thanks, I also recommend the nonfiction book "Confederates in the Attic"...

a hilarious and appalling account of several encounters with myopic southern "heritage" types

[UTUSN]

15. I shouldn't comment on what I don't know, but if the South had won WE'D ALL BE FUCKED!!1 n/t

[ReverendDeuce]

16. I was just headed out to BB -- is it a new release?

n/t

[Quantess]

22. Check out Idiocracy.

It's a new release. It shows a glimpse of our moronic future.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Yeah. Awfully depressing, though.

You can really see that De-volution thing happening as we speak.

[Quantess]

43. Depressing? Maybe. But it's supposed to be a comedy. (no text)

[Warren DeMontague]

48. It had some very funny moments, but it was too spot-on.

Frighteningly so.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. I don't want to bash the south, but sometimes I think we'da been better off just lettin' em

go. I mean, we still could have imported The Allman Brothers and R.E.M. like we did the Beatles.

Look at the electoral college results from the last 7 or 8 Presidential elections, you'll see what I mean.

Plus, I've been kicking around the idea for years that California should secede- who is to say that isn't a legitimate proposition?

[mitchum]

26. It would be more economical also; southern states receive more federal dollars...

than they put in.
Bunch of welfare Bubbas...

[DemBones DemBones]

30. So why is everybody and his brother moving to Atlanta for jobs?

Hmmmmm?

[JPZenger]

33. American Culture is limited to Lawrence Welk Show

In the movie, the religious right control American culture. Talented Blacks flee to Canada, where they create a cultural renaissance. Elvis Presley and rock and rollers also have to flee to Canada. The result is that American music and culture mainly consists of the Lawrence Welk Show.

Also, the runaway slaves who escape to Canada cause Canada to beat the Americans constantly in the Olympics.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

36. 'cuz someone invented air conditioning.

Having spent a few years a little south of Macon, I have a deep appreciation of air conditioning. And bug repellent.

[mitchum]

37. Because they're crazy?

Or desperate?
:)
Sorry, but I've never been that enamored of Atlanta. I only live 60 miles from the place, but never venture to that congested hellhole except to play gigs or catch a plane. I've always thought that it combines the worst aspects of both the north and the south.
However,I imagine though, that within 5 years time, the "Atlanta suburbs" will include my street.
Sprawl, y'all.

[MadHound]

34. Some would argue that the South has won, or at least had its revenge

What with the massive spread of southern evangelical religion, the influence of southern politicians, the spread of southern culture throughout America, all out of proportion to the South's size. I can see the points to this line of thought.

[mitchum]

38. And they would be correct...

I would also include the contemporary hostility toward intellectualism and the embrace of corporate feudalism as other signs of the south's "triumph" over American culture.
We're all crackers now! Oh boy...yeehaw!

[NewJeffCT]

35. Interesting - thanks for bringing it to my attention

I've always been fascinated by historical "What if...?" type scenarios. I'm currently reading a book about how chance & stupidity have changed history and recently finished a book about how Hitler could have won WW2.

I don't think the South could have conquered the North, but they could easily have won their independence if a few battles had turned out differently. (of course, that could also have been said about a lot of wars - the American Revolution for one...)

But, this sounds like its worth checking out.

[chaska]

41. I'm Southern, and often not proud of that fact, but....

Had the South won, it would have split from the rest of the USA. No matter how you slice it, that would be a good thing.

It would have long since abandoned slavery. International pressure would have assured that. If no one will trade with you you're going to change your ways.

The South was THE center of American high culture. Had that culture not been decimated, it may have had a civilizing effect on the USA (I realize that slavery and high culture are incongruous, but that was the case in the old South).

Actually, I think it's quite likely that all the things we hate about the South are directly related to its losing the war. For example, the North punished the South after that war. This made Southerners even more determined to punish the black man. Lynchings actually increased after the war.

It's not a simple question. And with each year that passes, I'm ever more convinced that all parties would be better off had the South been allowed to go its own way.

[mitchum]

44. Actually the south was the center of high culture until the 19th century...

(Charleston had the first opera house, theatre, and library in the country), but the south then embraced the romantic hogwash of Walter Scott and his ilk. Also, so much of the intellectual energy in the south was devoted to convoluted justifications for that "peculiar institution"
Despite Poe and Twain, 19th century high culture belongs to the north. Hawthorne, Melville, James, Whitman, Ives and Whistler were above the the Mason Dixon line.
However, we didn't perform too shabbily in terms of high culture in the 20th century. Faulkner, Wright, Williams, Johns :)