(DIALUP WARNING) Hugo Chavez: No friend to our sacred institutions.

[Poll_Blind]

:sarcasm:

IN MEMORIAM

Chavez does not kill alone.
Look at the thugs who support him:

Help defend our flag. Stop Hugo Chavez!

PB

[katsy]

1. k/r

:applause:

Beautiful.

[LoZoccolo]

2. You are either with Chavez or against him.

Lame.

[Buzz Clik]

5. Against.

His little act is cute when he's urinating on a President we don't like. He'll be less amusing when he gives the same level of crap to an administration we elected.

[Clark2008]

10. Depends on who the Democrat is.

Unfortunately, too many of them are coporate shills, as well.

[Buzz Clik]

23. You'd be hard pressed to find one who is not.

Chavez has his own agenda. Right now, he agrees with us that Bush's agenda is horrible, and we'd all be glad to be rid of him.

When someone new takes the reins, if it's a Dem, we'll be happy, but Chavez will still be banging his shoe on the table.

We were all so delighted with Cindy Sheehan and her rabble rousing tactics ... until we took over Congres, and then she started her shit at the Dems.

It never ends, folks. People who are anti-US don't care who is in charge.

[Leopolds Ghost]

27. She "started her shit" on the Dems because she is anti-US? No, because she's anti-WAR. Not pro-Dem.

Her campaign was never about getting people elected to Congress, which anyone smart would know has nothing to do with the Iraq war.

It's unfortunate that it took anger over the war to oust the Republicans
from Congress, since, as Cindy pointed out, it's one of the few issues
Dems and Republicans IN CONGRESS are not too far apart on. Chris Dodd
and Feingold are in the extreme minority.

[Buzz Clik]

48. Exactly, and you've hit upon my entire point.

A lot of people's ire about the war is directed only at Bush; they think that the Dems would "do the right thing" if elected. Likewise, we get the impression from a lot of people that Chavez generally likes the American people but despises Bush and meddling corporations. That simply is not so.

[ProudDad]

84. Where's your source?

Where's your source for the calumny that Chavez dislikes the American people?

Source please for this bullshit statement.

Thanks :hi:



Chavez, like a large and growing thinking minority in the U.S. hates the corporatocracy that's fucking us over!

[Buzz Clik]

97. Source? It's called an opinion.

Is it your impression that you can Google "Chavez Does Not Like Americans" and actually get a quote from Leader for Eternity?

By the way, I love your style. You provide no basis your opinions (because they're opinions), but demand sources for mine. Later in this thread your reply is only the "sarcasm" smilie.

You be sure to let me know when the DU outlaws opinions. Until then, the bullshit is all yours, pal.

[Poll_Blind]

32. You really view Sheehan as a rabble rouser? Who's the rabble, again?

  And the statement "People who are anti-US don't care who is in charge." You consider Sheehan and her rabble to be anti-US?

  Am I taking your statements out of context? I think (hope) so.

PB

[EFerrari]

39. No, I think that would be us anti-illegal immoral war people.

The rabble.

Proud member of the rabble here.

BRING THEM HOME.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. I'm against the war, and if 99% of Democrats were for it, I'd still be against it

I'm for moral principles, not blind loyalty to a party.

[EFerrari]

38. You are mistaking BushCo for the American people.

Anti-US? Don't you know that's the oldest propaganda trick in the world?

Look -- there's a shiney thing over there!

[John Gauger]

77. Yeah.

No kidding.

[JackRiddler]

41. Well said!

Cindy hates America! She pretended to be against the war, but it's America she wants to see defeated. I recommend her detention as an enemy combatant, before she infects any more rabble against the Democrats, who are America. Chavez hates America! One day, he might continue asserting the sovereignty of his own country against the CIA's interventions under a Democratic regime! I recommend a preventive war. Perhaps we can convince Bush to take care of this now - before a precious Democratic president is endangered by these America haters?

[Morgana LaFey]

52. There ya go!

I'm sure Buzz Click will appreciate the wisdom of your words and agree with you in toto.

[donsu]

68. are you nuts? Sheehan isn't anti-US

nt

[John Gauger]

76. He is not anti-US.

He is opposed to neo-liberal trade policies. He will be a thorn in the next President's side because the next President will support neo-liberal trade policies. He is an opponent of the US because our trade policies are starving his people.

[helderheid]

58. Couldn't agree more. I want the United States of America, not the United Corporations of America

[jefferson_dem]

11. His act sucks all the way around. I despise * as much as the next DUer but the sulfer...diablo

thing was so childish. No reputable "leader" with good intentions would stoop to such playground-style insults. I wonder what kind of tune his apologists here will be whistling when we get the WH back in 08.

[EFerrari]

14. It was a joke that drew big laughs and even applause at the UN.

I guess there are many "apologists" all over the world who admire the one leader who has consistently stood with the people and against BushCo.

Count me in. :)

[Poll_Blind]

28. Indeed. And it was little more, if you watch it in context, than an...

...opening joke that he knew the audience would laugh at. Because everyone in the world hates George W. Bush. It is a universal currency.

PB

[EFerrari]

30. His sense of humor seems to be the thing that pisses off BushCo the most.

Imagine, this little brown man LAUGHING at them when he should be cringing. :sarcasm:

I love the man, just for that.

[Poll_Blind]

36. Heh heh, not only that, but telling a joke about Bush that...

...everyone in the U.N. laughs out loud about, even applauding! I saw the footage of Bush when Colbert was roasting him famously at the Whitehouse Press Corps Dinner last year. It's on YouTube and it's just the feed from the camera trained on Bush, no cutaways. Oh man, he looked pissed. Exactly how I'd imagine he'd look- but it's so nice to see close-up footage of him turning redder and redder, breaking out in a light sweat and even more pissed because he drained he glass of water early on and had to sit there playing with the empty wine glass the whole rest of the time.

  It was, in a word, something special to watch. :)

  Now, you KNOW he had to watch the whole Chavez at the UN speech. I can imagine him kicking Mrs. Beasley and sending her yelping under a table or just randomly glaring at aides (who are barely able to contain their own laughter) until they're forced to leave the room.

  "You! Red tie! What do you got to be smilin' about? You think that guy on the TV is funny? Somebody, fire this guy!"

PB

[EFerrari]

37. I've long thought that Hugo wakes up in the morning and

over his coffee, plans how to needle Junior that day.

Not a bad way to start the day. :evilgrin:

[Buzz Clik]

46. Heh, heh. And he can needle the US for decades to come...

... if he can force his intended laws through. If he gets his way, he'll be in there for life.

Don't ever fool yourself into believing that Chavez serves anyone but himself first. Everyone and everything else is tied for last.

[Jim Warren]

49. The powers that be

Extraordinary powers you seem to have.

Reminds me when bush looked into Putin's soul.

[Buzz Clik]

50. You seem to be unaware of Chavez's latest manipulations for term limits.

Look it up. It will be quite a revelation for you.

[ProudDad]

85. Horrors

Just like FDR!!! :sarcasm:

[Buzz Clik]

96. Nice try.

You'll note we passed a very binding law to prevent that from ever happening again.

[EFerrari]

55. So you keep saying and he keeps doing repressive things like

putting in literacy programs so people can read their own constitution, and helping people buy their homes, and putting in hot meal programs in schools, and setting up neighborhood medical clinics.

Who do I believe, you or my lying eyes? :)

[Buzz Clik]

59. I never said he was evil. (Why do you people read everything as black or white?)

I said he is self serving. And that is an undeniable fact.

These arguments for Chavez being such a wonderful and kind leader bear a striking resemblance to the knuckledraggers telling us what wonderful things we're doing in Iraq -- "See? We built 10 schools last year. And five power plants are running again." But they conveniently ignore the fact that we destroyed the power plants, a huge fraction of the schools remain non-functional, etc.

Hey, if you want to go prostrate in idolizing Dear Darling Hugo, be my guest.

[EFerrari]

61. Us people? And you're comparing Chavez building infrastructure

to our disaster in Iraq?

Okay.

[Buzz Clik]

93. Yes. You are one of the few on this thread who can actually read.

I did, indeed, compare Chavez's machinations to our nonsense in Iraq.

[John Gauger]

79. The people of Venezuela are the same way.

In Latin America, they have a saying, "You can't eat democracy." They don't care if a journalist goes to jail for criticizing the government. All they care about is their free food, free housing, and free education. He may be authoritarian, but he's still the best world leader around. If the next President is neo-liberal, as I am sure he or she will be, I will still favor Chavez, even if I do believe he badly needs to retire for the good of his country. He is becoming a threat to their liberties.

[Buzz Clik]

95. I agree with about 80% of your post.

1. Our next prez will be a neo-liberal, unless the Dems nominate yet another loser. (Third time's a charm?)
2. Latin Americans' have totally different priorities about free press and similar rights we treasure. (One's priorities shift when you're hungry)
3. Chavez is authoritarian and he is definitely becoming a threat to their liberties.
4. Best world leader around? Egads, is that the best we can do? I'd love to hit you with a list of ten awesome world leaders, but I can't think of one. Manmohan Singh maybe? Tenzin Gyatso (the Dali Lama) is pretty cool, but he really doesn't do anything but, well, act cool.

[ProudDad]

86. What makes you think he's "self serving"?

Do you have any support for that statement?

I suspect he's a hell of a lot more altruistic than most. Everything I've read about him and the actions he's taken have convinced me that he's more concerned with the welfare of his people than most of the politicians we are suffering with here...with a few exceptions like Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich and my congresswoman Barbara Lee among a VERY few others.

Of course, if you love corporate capitalism you'd HATE Chavez...

[Buzz Clik]

92. Altruistic? Now THAT's funny.

He's promising to essentially give away energy to areas in the US who already hate Bush, but is that his energy? Is he personally paying for it?

Chavez is altruistic like Bush is generous in donating schools to Iraq. What utter bullshit.

[Morgana LaFey]

53. Oooo -- you got a link for that??

Sounds priceless.

[Poll_Blind]

64. Here ya go! Watch that shitty-drawers squirm! (LINK)

Bush Realtime Reaction to Colbert Speech

One minute thirty-eight seconds in, he drains the glass. Bad move, it gets hotter.

PB

[donsu]

70. yes, a brown man laughing at a white man - can't have that

nt

[Buzz Clik]

98. You're playing the race card? LOL!

[bvar22]

22. The millions he represents in Venezuela and around the globe....

...LOVED IT!
Chavez represents them, not you.

[Buzz Clik]

51. Damned straight he doesn't represent me!

Given the opportunity, I wouldn't vote for that slimy sonofabitch.

Chavez represents, in order:

1. Himself.
2. His benefactors
3. Some of the people in his country
4. Socialist ideologues who have convinced themselves that Chavez is not just another politicians.

That's it. If you're on that list, bully for you.

[donsu]

71. you are afraid of him?

nt

[Buzz Clik]

99. no

[Buzz Clik]

24. Agreed.

[baldguy]

12. Why should the President of Venezuela love America?

[EFerrari]

15. I think he does. It's just the United States current government he's

a little uncomfortable with. You know, when people try to depose you or kill you, well, it can get on your last nerve. :)

/freep punctuation

[Kingshakabobo]

29. Geez. It was nuttin personal..... it's just business. nt

[LoZoccolo]

20. Why does he open Citgo stations lolol! n/t

[Buzz Clik]

26. He shouldn't. Loving the US would be a quick way to lose his voter base.

[Poll_Blind]

16. 25 million gallons of discounted heating oil to 100k New Yorkers.

  And habitual reminders that he does not dislike the American people, just their shitty president.

  25 million gallons of heavily-discounted (40% off) heating oil, specifically for those making "less than 60% of the median income".

  That's one hell of a peace offering that just about every American can understand. Little birdy tells me that unless the next president is an insane warmonger, we'll probably have a much better relationship with Venezuela in the future, to all our benefits.

PB

[Buzz Clik]

21. Hopefully, we'll put that to the test.

Generally, the leaders of these third world countries love their face time on television, and the U.S. is their favorite muse -- no matter who is in charge.

[Jim Warren]

31. "these third world countries"?

Henry Kissinger: "Nothing veddy interesting ever happens in the south"

[EFerrari]

34. Do you have any idea what Chavez is doing is Latin America?

Why do you think BushCo is after him so much?

Do you have any clue what a threat he is to them?

Face time on television?

Muse?!

lol

[Webster Green]

35. Yes, and it's because the US wants to steal whatever they have..

I wonder why they don't like that.:shrug:

[Buzz Clik]

45. Agreed.

And the legacy of doing so didn't begin with Bush and will not end there.

Unfortunately, Chavez and his ilk never abandon their little show once the President leaves office.

[Morgana LaFey]

54. You seem to be complaining because he's complaining about

being dumped on repeatedly. As sfexpat said, SuperPower assassination plots against you tend to be annoying. But YOU don't think he's got the right to a beef over the matter?

Amazing.

You also don't seem to be convincing anyone.

[Buzz Clik]

57. Care to read what I said?

I have no problem with Chavez despising Bush. My point, however -- and it is a point you seem to be refusing to read -- is that Chavez's despise is not limited to Bush. He hates the US in general, despite claims on this thread to the contrary.

Do I blame him for hating the US? No. Does that somehow make me sympathetic to his silly antics, charades, and tirades? No, not at all.

Hugo Chavez is a circus clown making silly jokes on a three-ring, international stage.

[Poll_Blind]

67. "Chavez's despise is not limited to Bush. He hates the US in general"

  Where are you getting that idea from?

PB

[Buzz Clik]

91. It's called an opinion.

:eyes:

[ProudDad]

88. Can you READ???

Repeat after me: He's against metastatic corporate capitalism NOT "the U.S. in general"!!!

Where do you dig up this shit???

[Buzz Clik]

90. Playing to the audience, daddy? I've agreed with your statement in every post.

[cherokeeprogressive]

25. I'm pretty sure you just NAILED it. n/m

[Nutmegger]

3. The Corporate Flag of America

That's what it's all about.

R and K.

[Selatius]

4. Obedience to the bottom line is obedience to God and the US.

Those who who stand against it are evil and anti-American. :silly:

[GuvWurld]

6. LTTE: If Venezuelans have a dictator, what have we here?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x114599

[EFerrari]

13. That's a great LTTE, Guv.

And the comparison is shattering.

[GuvWurld]

17. Thanks sfexpat

:hi:

[Poll_Blind]

42. Seconded.

K&R'd in your thread. It points out a huge disparity of perception worth taking a serious look at.

PB

[Jim Warren]

7. We are warm in this old house tonight

It's 10 degrees out and we just got a hundred gallons of oil free from the Citizens Energy/Citgo oil program. Thanks Joe Kennedy and Hugo Chavez.

[Poll_Blind]

18. Yep, 25 million gallons at 40% off. Pretty good deal! And, as I...

...said, he's speaking a language Americans understand well, especially the last two winters.

PB

[Jim Warren]

19. It was changed 1/24/07

Instead of 40% off 200 gals. now it's 100 gals. free.

http://www.meoil.com/documents/CitizensCITGOProgram_2_.pdf

[Poll_Blind]

47. ! n/t

PB

[EFerrari]

8. Nicely done.

And the correlative is: never trust an American President bearing "democracy".

[Fridays Child]

9. Viva Chavez! Viva Venezuela!

[StClone]

83. Me too

:hi:

[Mnemosyne]

33. Humanitarian aid for Americans. Who would have

believed such a thing, even 6 years ago? Wow.

I am grateful to Chavez for offering help to people so they can survive the winter.

That mercenary bastard.

[EFerrari]

40. Really. What a huge threat to our "democracy" he is.

Keeping people from freezing.

What a pinko bastard.

[Morgana LaFey]

56. Well, actually, he IS a threat to our "democracy"

Or at least that seems to be what the U.S. Govt think about all leftist governments around the world since the end of WWII, primarily thanks to the infusion of ex-Nazis into the CIA and also the Republican Party. Extreme rightwing fascist governments are fine, it's those damn socialist governments that are such a threat to CAPITALISM and must be abolished.

In the case of Chavez, he's not just a damned socialist, he's got OIL. OUR oil, thinks this administration and the oligarchists whose logos appeared in the OP. And the last damned thing he's got a right to do is NATIONALIZE that oil and make sure the poor (who, as has been pointed out, love him) have a better life because of it. Nope, would't be prudent. Chavez must GO.

How many times has the U.S. tried to do him in (that we're aware of) so far? I think it's at least 3, isn't it? What's the Spanish word for cat?

[slick8790]

63. I think

it has less to do with helping the people of the U.S than with making Bush look stupid. What better way to make a president seem impotent than making it seem as if people need a foreign government to give them heating fuel? Not that him giving people discounted heating fuel is bad. I just think his motives aren't as rosy as some like to think.

[Mnemosyne]

65. Motives don't really matter when it saves lives,

and bubbleboy couldn't look any more stupid, impotent and incompetent to the world than he does already, at least I hope not.

Welcome to DU slick! :hi:

[John Gauger]

80. They say the same thing in Venezuela.

"You can't eat democracy." I tend to disagree; I think motives are important. I love Chavez, but having food in my stomach and a roof over my head, I care about things like due process and democracy.

[Mnemosyne]

69. Unbelievable! That commie. n/t

[Scurrilous]

43. K & R

:kick:

[Greyhound]

44. Douple plus good K & R

Pointed and humorous at the same time. The first sub-thread is, unfortunately, quite indicative of what's to come though. We seem to come in two flavors here, the pro-people and the pro-party, and the pro-party people really don't give two shits about the people as long as there are more politiwhores in DC with a (D) after their names.
:kick:

[Zodiak]

60. I have noticed that anti-Chavez sentiments on DU

have become thinner, more scarce, and suddenly devoid of substance.

It looks like a consensus is being built.

[jefferson_dem]

62. Nah. There is *NO* consensus. There are still plenty on DU who are skeptical of Hugo.

Some here may have grown tired of debating the same issues round and round and having whatever *evidence* they offer automatically discredited, rather than refuted, as "propaganda."

[Zodiak]

74. That has not been my observation

I have seen plenty of exchanges regarding Chavez, and both sides presented cogent facts until recently. Now from the anti-Chavezers I see a lot of entreaties and working the refs without engagement and good faith. This thread is a good example...the only anti-Chavez evidence I saw on this thread up until my post was one DUer who was telling us he knows what Chavez' intentions are (like 6 times)....as if he can read minds. That is hardly evidence.

Present the evidence...let the rest of DU judge. Forget rewriting how the debate went....everyone here has seen the debate and can judge for themselves.

[ProudDad]

89. Present some actual EVIDENCE

rather than inuendo and ad-hominum attacks or screeds from right-wing propoganda sources...

and we might listen...:shrug:

[donsu]

66. "sacred" is a dangerous word

the religiously insane use it as a stopsign word.

usually what is called sacred - isn't.

[Poll_Blind]

72. And by listing the corporate logos as one would innocents murdered, I...

...hoped to convey this disparity.

  The way I see it, looking at the actions of the American and Venezuelan governments one can generally and reasonably assert:

:bluebox: In the United States, citizens are sacrificed for the betterment of corporations.
:bluebox: In Venezuela, corporations are sacrificed for the betterment of citizens.

  Once again, this is in looking at how the two governments generally respond to the question: Who or what is most important: Corporations or citizens?

  I think some of the backlash against Chavez's policies is rooted in an unconscious dissonance an American feels when they hear about corporations being privatized and turned over to the people. It strikes them as entirely un-American.

  And it well should strike them as such. Because for far too long, America has been run primarily for the benefit of corporations (and the very few individuals who control them) as opposed to all the citizens who supposedly the American system is supposed to work for.

  I think these questions and evaluations have arisen in any country at any time in the past when the middle class has shrunk and disparity between the rich and the poor grows to an intolerable (for the poor) level.

PB

[leveymg]

75. Impose a 100% death tax on dead companies.

RIP

[MasonJar]

78. I frankly do not see this need to disparage Chavez. He can be

voted out if the Venezuelian people do not like his policies. It is hardly our business. If the US oil companies had not screwed the V people by not even paying the taxes required, then there would most likely be more consideration for them now. Concentrate on how we get our country from the grip of the mercenary neo-cons. That is a full time job. Let Chavez alone. I personally think it is time that more world leaders exposed Bush's shenanigans on a daily basis.

[PATRICK]

81. Another certainty

is that if Bush ids going after iran and is still the squatting ruler of America, then he will swat aside Chavez and the current "interest" in Venezuelan democracy is only the slimmest smokescreen as to that pre-determined policy, the people of any country be damned and any facts true or to the contrary.

If the mindless slaughter enslavement and desertification of another oil country somehow equates with interest in Chavez's offenses against sudden American democratic purity, real or conveniently imagined I would like to know the equivalence- and not in blood soaked dollars and cents.

[Mrspeeker]

82. LOL

Great post K&R!!!

[Cleita]

87. Thanks. The fact that he keeps getting singled out and none

of the real dictators in situ are even mentioned says volumes to me as to who is behind these attacks.

[Gonzo3]

94. So well said.

Thank you.

[zulchzulu]

100. Isn't "Chavez" on of dem terrerriss' names?

:sarcasm: