I really wonder how conservative Mormons would feel if I accuse

[cboy4]

them (and in particular Romney) of being blatant hypocrites when it comes to gay civil rights?

Hear me out.

After all, Mormons are are subjected to a lot of ridicule and skepticism in this country, yet largely behave in a manner opposite of how they believe they should be treated.

I bring this up after watching a story about Romney and Mormons on NBC Nightly News this evening.

***Romney appeals for understanding and acceptance concerning his minority religion, yet he and others seemingly reject gay people's plea for simple understanding and acceptance. They don't care if gay people hurt.

***Mormons in general believe it's stereotypical and wrong for people to associate polygamy with them and their religion, yet they couldn't care a less about the sometimes vicious stereotypes associated with gay people.....stereotypes which cause misery and hinder civil rights advancements.

Romney certainly wouldn't think it's fair if people didn't vote for him because of who he is, a Mormon. Yet, he doesn't think gay people should be allowed to serve in the military or get married because of who gay people are.

==----------------And here's what really stood out in the NBC story:

A Mormon they interviewed said: "If people really knew who we are, I really don't think there would be any controversy about it."

Gee, ya think?

That's exactly what gay people say to society, yet Romney and conservative Republican Mormons are more than happy to make sure gay people sit in back of the proverbial bus.


It's total hypocrisy.

I just hope Romney loses so he knows how it feels.

[REP]

1. One Huge Difference: People May Not Understand Mormonism, But Mormons Still Have Civil Rights

Doesn't matter how misunderstood or even disliked Mormonism is - Mormons can be legally married in any state in the Union. Cry me a fucking river, Romney.

[Leopolds Ghost]

6. No they can't. Mormon marriage is plural marriage.

Besides which, in my opinion Mormonism is not a true religion
in the sense that it was founded on the basis of texts which
are (probably) entirely fictitious.

I wish that wasn't the case because I'm sure most Mormons
are good people --

and they DID side with the Indians in the Indian Wars.

[ima_sinnic]

8. so the texts of other religions AREN'T "fictitious"?

I happen to think all religions are totally ridiculous, based on superstitious tall tales told around campfires. The bible has a few good inspirational quotes, but as far as being "nonfiction"--ya really think so?

on edit: typo

[kdmorris]

9. Not all Mormon marriage is plural marriage

So most Mormons actually can marry in any state of the union. The other small percentage, who practice polygamy, through an offshoot of the Mormon religion called the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS). They can still marry their FIRST wife legally in any state in the union. And if they divorce that wife, they can legally marry the other ones. I don't think they actually do it that way, but it would still be legal if they did.

Gays cannot marry, at all, ever, in most states of the union. And if they are married in Massachusetts or get a civil union in one of the states that does allow it, they cannot port that marriage/union to other states. Historically, all marriages recognized by one state were also recognized by all others, until same-sex marriage came along. THEN they created new laws to stop that practice. It was because of this law that Utah renounced polygamy to join the union.

Notice they didn't pass the law that says states don't have to recognize marriages that they don't agree with in 1896, when Utah joined the union. They passed it 100 years later, when it looked like gays might get the same rights the rest of us did.

So, no... you can't really equate being a Mormon with being a homosexual.

[KamaAina]

12. Worse than creating new laws, they exhumed old ones

that were last enforced deacdes ago, against interracial marriage. Believe it. :grr:

[siligut]

14. Laws against interracial marriage?

Really? I don't want to get you blown up or anything; but will you expound a bit?

[KamaAina]

19. Long ago, southern states refused to recognize interracial marriages performed in the North

and these same antiquated laws are now being used by states in every region to circumvent recognition of same-sex marriages performed in Mass.

[siligut]

24. Thanks.

I guess they figure one prejudice is as good as another in light of a really stupid fucking law.

[FreeState]

23. They were not practicing polygamy when Utah became a state

Notice they didn't pass the law that says states don't have to recognize marriages that they don't agree with in 1896, when Utah joined the union. They passed it 100 years later, when it looked like gays might get the same rights the rest of us did.

On July 8, 1862, President Abraham Lincoln signed the Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act into law, which forbade the practice of polygamy in US territories.

The LDS Church stopped practing polygamy in October of 1890. That is 6 years before they became a state.

[kdmorris]

35. I see my point was completely lost on you

Fine, then...

"Notice they didn't pass the law that says states don't have to recognize marriages that they don't agree with in 1890. They passed it 106 years later, when it looked like gays might get the same rights the rest of us did."

Better?

[Arugula Latte]

13. And the Bible is true?

:rofl:

[Madspirit]

28. All Religious Book are Fictitious...n/t

[Az]

43. How is the Tao Te Ching fictitious?

I don't recall it making any contestable claims.

[cboy4]

11. Well said and thanks.

:thumbsup:

[MichaelHarris]

2. I'm not allowed

to discuss Mormons here. Wrote an article about a week ago and it got deleted so fast I wondered if I hit the submit button. In some areas of America if you write bad stuff about Mormons they blow you up.

[cboy4]

3. Well, I don't think I'm writing bad stuff about Mormons or the

Mormon religion....so I can't imagine this qualifies for deletion.

I don't think it's disparaging to point out hypocrisy related to Romney's fight for acceptance from potential voters.

I'm not sure of the tone of your article, so I can't address that.

However, it should be noted that I'm respectful of the Mormon religion and progressive Mormons, including some very nice people I know.

[MichaelHarris]

4. they'll blow you up

Not really. My article was about the history of the religion, mostly discussing the finding of the gold tablets. My questions were the reasoning behind destroying the GOLD tablets when the money from them could have funded the exodus. I also questioned how a man running from 3 attackers could outrun them carrying 3 gold tablets that weighed in excess of 60 pounds each. The story has him jumping logs, and juking the attackers.

I didn't attack at all, in fact I was shocked it was deleted. Maybe it's better it got deleted, that way I won't get blown up. :)

[BikeWriter]

5. Woo hoo! I researched that religion once.

[jessicazi]

41. I wrote bad stuff about Mormons

and sued the Mormon Church. I live in Idaho, 1 hour from the Utah border. Never been blown up, never been threatened. Nothing. And I won the lawsuit. $4.2 million.

[BikeWriter]

42. Hey, way cool. Wanna buy a really cool bridge?

[jessicazi]

46. Nope.

It's in appeals and the money is for being sexually abused, so I should put some of it towards therapy.

[demobabe]

7. I posted a thread on this a few days ago

Arizona and Utah have for all intents and purposes legalized polygamy. They won't prosecute it. Yet they'll scream to high heavens about forbidding gays to marry:

Here's the article: http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/editorials/141

[cboy4]

10. Excellent article demobabe.

:)

[IndianaJones]

15. I'll say it

His is the attitude of most of our citizens. Most of our citizens claim to be Christians, of which Mormons are a denomination, albeit a controversial one.

Coincidence? I don't think so.

[FreeState]

17. Exactly

Exactly.

Also Im always amazed at how GLBT persons view the LDS church.

I was raised Mormon and still claim it as part of my identity and I am gay. Most of the horror stories you hear about the LDS church and GLBT persons are way over reported and over rated. I know a lot of GLBT Mormons and none of them have been rejected from their families (Im sure it happens but it is not as common as people like to think - I was the president of the GLBT club on a campus in Utah with over 200 members and not one was rejected by their family).

The Church does give money to anti-equality groups that try and deny marriage equality - but don't most conservative faiths?

Outside of marriage most members of the LDS faith that I know support GLBT rights.

[bullwinkle428]

31. Why does a group like Affirmation exist if the LDS Church

is generally accepting, tolerant, and loving of GLBT people within the congregation?

http://www.affirmation.org/about/

[FreeState]

33. I never said they were not

I was trying to get across the point that a lot of what you hear about gay Mormons and the church is not entirely true. THere is a need for Affirmation for some people - but it is a tiny segment of gay mormons that go to Affirmation - very tiny - I would estimate it is less than 5%.

I knew of one person that went when I was in college - out of 100's of GLBT persons (and this was in Utah)

[cboy4]

37. I think you missed the point of my thread......I'm talking

about right wing, Bush-voting Mormons like Romney.

Key word, "conservative."

I'm not talking about tolerant Mormons....the people I know, and I'm guessing you know.

I think you really distorted (perhaps unintentionally) the purpose of this thread.

[Midlodemocrat]

16. Romney is a homophobic POS. 'nuff said.

:hi: cboy4!!

[cboy4]

36. Well, that pretty much sums it up :)

I miss you! :hi: :hug:

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

18. Well, if what you are saying is: WE ARE ALL SUBJECT TO ATTACK,...

,..since we live in a country where EVERY-ONE is allowed the freedom to believe in his/her own righteousness rather than encouraged to be *ahem* tolerant and cooperative and concerned about others,...

,...well, I agree,...

"hatred" is run amok these days and "tolerance" is,...well,...hanging on by the branches you and me and others are offering,...

it's sad

[FreeState]

20. Some thoughts

***Romney appeals for understanding and acceptance concerning his minority religion, yet he and others seemingly reject gay people's plea for simple understanding and acceptance. They don't care if gay people hurt.

Romney might not care but to say that all conservative Mormons do not care is a huge stretch - in-fact its doing exactly the hypocrisy thing you mention below.

***Mormons in general believe it's stereotypical and wrong for people to associate polygamy with them and their religion, yet they couldn't care a less about the sometimes vicious stereotypes associated with gay people.....stereotypes which cause misery and hinder civil rights advancements.

Once again you are the one stereotyping here. Not all conservative Mormons stereotype GLBT persons. Not even in general. A minority might but the majority do not. I should know my father is a Mormon Bishop, and a Republican on top of that.

Romney certainly wouldn't think it's fair if people didn't vote for him because of who he is, a Mormon. Yet, he doesn't think gay people should be allowed to serve in the military or get married because of who gay people are.

Would you vote for a Mormon?

And this is Romney not the religion. The church has not taken a stand on the military service (most LDS people I know could care less). The church has taken a strong stand against Marriage Equality which is appalling - but be careful here, not all members agree with the church leadership on this.

Gee, ya think?

That's exactly what gay people say to society, yet Romney and conservative Republican Mormons are more than happy to make sure gay people sit in back of the proverbial bus.

So Romney's an ass. Thats a given - however it could be asked how many Mormons do you know? What have you personally done to educate Mormons about GLBT persons needs and who they are? LDS persons in the US have a lot more in common with GLBT persons than both sides are willing to admit if you ask me.

[cboy4]

38. Come on now. You've distorted and exaggerated practically

everything I said.

I didn't say all, I said largely.

Another time, I didn't say all, I said in general.

Yes I would vote for a Mormon. Harry Reid is a Mormon, isn't he?

And in my OP, I said I respect the Mormon religion and progressive Mormons.

You need to re-read my post and use your comprehension skills, because you took everything I said out of context.

[Arugula Latte]

21. I know I'm sick of religious people (Mormons, fundies, etc.) demanding tolerance

while simultaneously trying to deny others their rights...Fuck them.

[cboy4]

39. Amen!

:thumbsup:

[DemGa]

22. Mitt's religion is just politics

He's got to sound that way if he's to reassemble the tattered Fundie base. It's a shame religion still has such a hold on people and our modern times must always be so antiquated. Imo.

[samq79]

25. Hypocrisy runs rampant through all of the Christian religious sects...

Think about it. This Jesus guy comes along, completely doing a 180 from the fire and brimstone edicts that had been previously documented from God. He tells his people to love their neighbors, that we're all God's children, and that he's going to die for our sins, so if we believe, we're good to go.

Wow, wouldn't it be nice if we could just live life like that? Instead the hypocrisy takes hold, and suddenly it's love thy neighbor, unless they happen to be gay, or unless they happen to read Harry Potter, or unless they happen to have a different color skin. Let's co-opt the words of God and turn them into something ugly, so we can rationalize our hatred, and make it ok.

This is why I don't go to church anymore...

[vanboggie]

34. Very well said n/t

[CabalPowered]

26. A couple points from a Jack mormon

I buddied around in HS with a guy who was the grandson of an apostle, Packer to be specific. Packer did just fine financially and offered to all of his grandchildren scholarships to colleges when they graduate from HS. Well about our Junior year, my buddy finally explained to his family that he was gay as the topic had come up in another unrelated event. Upon hearing this, Packer told my buddy that he would never pay for his education and that he was going to hell, etc, etc, etc. To this day, my buddy doesn't speak with any of his relatives with the exception of his brothers.

Secondly, what the church doesn't want anyone to know is that the current version of the Book of Mormon has been *HEAVILY* edited from its original version. I did a lot of this research prior to the Internet but I'm sure there's lots of sites out there that describe previous version of the BoM. The older versions I read were down right scary....

[FreeState]

27. LOL, you can buy it at the church

Secondly, what the church doesn't want anyone to know is that the current version of the Book of Mormon has been *HEAVILY* edited from its original version...

That must be why you can buy the original version of the Book of Mormon at the LDS Church book stores then?

http://deseretbook.com/store/product?sku=2609476

Some way of hiding it - offer it for sale! /sarcasm

[CabalPowered]

29. Well good for them. Like I said, I researched all that before the Internets

and the only references I could find to the original texts, at that time, were from passages in scholarly works on the subject that I found in my University's library.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

30. I was rendered speechless by your post. It's not spirituality that kills, it is people.

PLEASE, don't associate my premise on the NRA's meme (which they should NEVER have owned,...grrr).

I know for a fact that humanity would not have suffered through it's own demise without some spiritual inspiration.

However, I fully acknowledge that, the institutions of 'religion' have brought humanity to its knees of survival.

EVERY institution can do good,...and bad.

We would make a difference by doing as the Dalai Lhama has,...and focus on, encourage the GOOD that spirituality donates to human strength and persistence through THROUGH the human forces of evil.

PLEASE.

Respect whatever strength upon which people draw,...to be a contribution rather than retribution to this existence.

[CabalPowered]

32. No doubt

And I will be the first to admit that the Church helps and assists members and non-members alike. I also believe the church is not a static entity and is actually quite dynamic. The church's position towards women in leadership positions has always been a sticking point for my own mother. But as I can tell over time, the church is beginning to bend here and there.

With that said, I believe Mormonism is more politically active than other organized religions. A case in point. Through way of my job, I toured the Church's printing division last week and we get to the sheet fed press room and the first stack of jobs was some July 3rd event happening in SLC. Large posters with a large American flag, something about "pride in your country". It struck me as a very strange poster for the church to be printing.

[autorank]

40. K*R Excellent point. It's so weak to cry foul when you're persecuted and then persecute others.

[Az]

44. The Golden Rule can be seen as a two way street

It is not only a guideline by which people are told to live. But it can also be a guideline others can look to as to how the individual expects to be treated.

[Major Hogwash]

45. Yes, but they use the Golden Ruler to bash the shit out of gays.

And I've seen them do it. And that's not nice.

Not only do I live in a state that has a large majority of Mormons living here, I was raised among them, went to school with them, partied with them.

And one thing they don't ever want to admit - gays exist.