Critique my arguments with a freeper if you like.

[Nitrogenica]

The story I commented on was very short, basically the headline sums up the story. "Republicans Reelect Corrupt, Incompetent Chair" I am Nitro in this discussion. I know this post is rather long. This is one of my first attemts at really taking it to a troll on one of my favorate local blogs. I hope anyone reading all this thinks I did well, however I accept DUers critiques, if given. I really went on offense here a bit, and did break my own rule about "name calling". Anyhoo DU is my daily refuge for information, and I respect all of you.

Republicans Reelect Corrupt, Incompetent Chair

Nitro Jun 9th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
If this is anything, it is predictable. Accountability is irrelevant when the ends justify the means, right?

Veritas Jun 9th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
works for both parties…. what is the saying about living in glass houses and throwing stones???

Nitro Jun 9th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
LOLS throwing stones.
Don’t assume Minnesotans are idiots, pal. Every piece in the great puzzle of the Republicans “corrupt plan to create a permanent Republican majority at any cost” fit, every piece. From the attorney scandal to election fraud, no bid defense contracts, big pharma price gouging, oil prices, record number of Americans in debt, half truths from the Commander In Chief, a failed war, Katrina sub contracting scandal, lack of immigration enforcement, outsourcing jobs, trade deficit, record budget deficit, free trade agreements, halliburton, American savings in the negative for the first time since the 1930’s, Sailboat fuel runs, the Downing Street memos, “Bin Laden Determined To Strike US” PDB, Republican sex scandals (Foley and a large host of others), Jeff Gannon’s 100’s of White House visits at all hours, child molestation and rape by the clergy, unfair tax breakes for corporations and big business, oddly timed terror alerts in the summer of 2004 that Tom Ridge said were not necessary, offshore tax shelters, Walter Reed privatization, cuts in Veterans benefits, rising health care costs, record profits for big oil quarter after quarter, the “do nothing” congress of 2004, 2005, and 2006, Plamegate, Ken Lay & Enron, Abrhamoff, Scooter, Delay, Noe, Cunningham, and much much more. It’s rather apalling. You’re living with your head buried in the sand if you think that the American people are unaware of all these recent, relevant events. You want more, I can post 100’s more events that happened in the last 2 years that are quite disturbing, all part of a bigger picture.

Guess what, Veritas. These are all scandals that people identify as Republican scandals. They are recent events, all happened within the last couple of years. Republicans are who you represent, judging by your comments.

Can you explain to me please why there is so much that has gone wrong? Why should we trust you righties?

Chris Jun 10th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Nitro,

You must have been in the group of people that were distributing “9/11 was a hoax” literature in front of our meeting yesterday. I have in my posession a mock dollar bill distributed by this group. This is what it says: “Fraudulent event note. Unmask State Sponsored Terrorism. One Deception. War is terrorism. Media Blackout, Evidence Destriction, Omissions and Distortions, ‘Pull It,’ False Flag Operation, Gatekeepers, Inside Job, Patsies and Moles, MIHOP, Profiteering, FAA, Put Options, War Games, WTC7 Cover Ip, Reichstag Fire, Hijackers Alive.” It also has a picture of President Bush with the caption “International Terrorist.” This is the same bull$hit that got Rosie canned from the View. I’d love to send a scan to Zack or Matt so they can see this. It’s pathetic and shows how absolutely crazy you people on the far left have become. I wouldn’t be surprised if George Soros paid these guys to protest our meeting.

Chris Jun 10th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
P.S. Nitro,

You forgot to mention William Jefferson (D-LA) indicted in an 86 page complaint for bribery and corruption in his official office. I guess it wasn’t convenient for you to mention that.

Nitro Jun 10th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
“You must have been in the group of people that were distributing “9/11 was a hoax” literature in front of our meeting yesterday.”

How dare you. You, my friend, act like an asshole, and I know you claim to be an independent thinker. Bill O’Reilly claims to be an independent thinker. Your argument is false because you fail to address any of the issues I spoke of.

Notice I put nothing about 9/11 on my list. There are more questions than answers about that event. I’m sure someday we’ll get the questions actually answered, rather than being shouted at with half truths and talking points.

As far as Jefferson goes, he is a Democrat. My list is of Republican scandals. You want some more lists, Chris? There are plenty more fine examples of disturbing Republican behavior over the last 6 years, way too many to list. Crossed referenced facts about events that occured, not opinions. Convictions. Sworn testimony. Here’s a good one, in 2003, 12 BILLION dollars in shrink wrapped $100 bills, 365 tons of $100 bills, disappeared into Iraq, never to be seen again.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2008189,00.html

Does that disturb you? The Republicans were responsible for the oversight of things like this in 2003, as you know.

I’m going just sit back and watch the Republican party die, maybe make some popcorn, sit back, and watch this all play out. I have been fairly accurate predicting what was going to happen over the last 6 years, and I bet I’m right about this too.

Mark Swanson Jun 10th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
From the attorney scandal –no scandal here, just getting normal moving people out that fail to support the agenda put forth by the boss–this is normal in most companies, unlike the Clinton wholesale dump to get the one he couldn’t let move forward.

no bid defense contracts–if you are talking about the Halliburton contract…this was put out and no other bids were submitted (other than a French company–so you want to outsource the military contracts now??). See http://www.factcheck.org/anti-bush_ad_overstates_case_against_halliburton.html

big pharma price gouging–also from factcheck.org–Democratic ads continue to misinform voters about the Medicare prescription drug benefit. Several ads from the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee also attacked Republicans for supporting the plan because it prevents federal officials from negotiating with drug companies for volume discounts. But the ads fail to note that seniors enrolled in the plan are expected to save an average of several hundred dollars a year on their prescription drugs…

These are just a few examples of the actual truth, if you care to go past the headlines and actually get it. As I see it, you and your cohorts in the media continue to skew what is really going on. Do a little research before you rant with continued half-truths.

Mark Swanson Jun 10th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
P.S. Nitro….I don’t see how you draw conclusions from that article, it doesn’t say there was any proof of wrong doing. I guess you assume something was done wrong because money was involved?

That is certainly true of Congressman Jefferson, but how do you know about this money. Where’s the rest of the facts? Do you have any actual facts or just accusations??

To me this is the same thinking that gets public servants like Scooter Libby. There was no ACTUAL proof of wrong doing, but there could have been, let’s start an investigation and see if we can get someone on purjury charges, that way even if there was no actual wrong doing we can at least get a good story out of it and maybe one of them won’t remember all of the dates correctly and we can get ‘em that way.

WHERE IS THE REST OF THE STORY WITH THE FACTS???

Bring the list on……

Chris Jun 10th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Nitro,

You can’t even keep track of your own list. You blamed Bush for 9/11 when you mentioned the “Bin Laden Determined To Strike US” PDB. You also brought in the kook conspiracy Halliburton crap. You may not have been leafletting the 9/11 conspiracy bull$hit. But you’re only one step away into believing it. Hell, you even mentioned a possible government coverup when you said, “someday we’ll get the questions actually answered…”

Veritas Jun 10th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
nitro..Halliburton was the only company that could have done the work required…. how many dead bodies did clinton leave lying around?..Vince Foster…and 83 innocents at waco….ok..what election fraud?..exapmles?….why are republicans responsible for people saving money?..outsourcing was a bill clinton deal when he signed NAFTA….oil prices?..that is a global problem created by futures traders….your talking points are not valid.. PS I am NOT your pal..and you are proof that Minnesotans are idiots….is 8 fire attornies really a scandal..or is it because the Star and Sickle says so?..a dying irrelevant paper BTW…nice try…dink

Nitro Jun 10th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Anyone who thinks that they have all the answers is completely ignorant, in my opinion.

I do not, nor do the majority of us, enjoy being shouted down with false arguments and tactics. Those methods of debate are, simply put, what you have been trained to do. I find it sickening.

“Democrats do it too” is not good enough. Name calling is not working anymore, either, if you havn’t noticed. Neither does broad brushing, like the “Ted Kennedy” thing. It’s getting old.

The Attorney scandal? Either Gonzalez has altzheimers disease or he’s hiding something. Let’s figure out what’s going on there. Why would we allow people with such poor memories to hold public office? He’s the top law enforcement officer in the country, and people need to trust him.

I blamed Bush for 9/11? Where did I say that? You don’t know my position. Let’s all look at that memo. What, do you suggest 9/11 didn’t happen under Bush’s watch? It’s not a conspisacy, Bush is an incompetent leader. That does not mean he made 9/11 happen, he just was not paying attention. In the shout back and forth format you love so much, you don’t really want to know my position anyway. You wish I was a conspiracy theorist, there’s a lot of truthiness to that belief. It’s all just “black and white” to you people.

Halliburton crap? How about Custer Battles and dozens more who used the war as a get-rich-quick scheme. But “crap” that’s name calling. Sorry, *buzz* false argument, name calling is what elementary school children do. Didn’t Halliburton ship “Sailboat Fuel” all over Iraq? This is my tax money. No competetitive bidding is not how I want my tax money spent, and that goes for pharma too. You probably want accountability for welfare, I want accountability and thriftiness with my money NO MATTER WHAT ISSUE!

Also, I agree, let’s investigate Scooters case some more. What are the facts? Fitzgerald did say the following at his sentencing:

“First, it was clear from very early in the investigation that Ms. Wilson qualified under the relevant statute (Title 50, United States Code, Section 421) as a covert agent whose identity
had been disclosed by public officials, including Mr. Libby, to the press.”

She was a covert agent, exposed for some reason, by someone. Let’s look into it.

You read into things people say and misinterpret them, that’s what you do, because you know that technique works, and it’s how you wish things were. It’s been done so often the last six years, I’m beginning to wonder weather that works with Independent votes anymore. It does not work with me, sorry. Twist it all you want.

Lastly, As for more lists, there are so many. My favorate are the huge Republican Sex Crime lists that get bigger every month. I could copy and paste it but it is too big. Here’s a link, though it doesn’t include any of them since last November, like the DC Madame, for example.

http://empiresfall.blogspot.com/2006/10/republican-sex-crimes.html

I’m sure you have some links of your own. I invite you to pick a story from that list and look it up. I’ve looked up story after story off that list, I think most of them are true.

Again I simply ask if, in fact, there were mistakes made by the Republicans in power, which we’ve all heard again and again from Republicans, can you tell me what they were?…..please?

Were there no mistakes or mistakes? What were they?……very very simple question.

Chris Jun 10th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Nitro,

I’m not going to get into the weeds with you about everything else you’ve written. Your words speak for themselves. But I cannot actually believe you said that Libby or the whole Valerie Plame Wilson matter should be investigated more. Contrary to your assertions, Plame was NOT covert under the law. Victoria Toensing, who was the attorney for the Judiciary Committee who wrote the statute testified that Plame was not covert under the law. Toensing should know what the law means because she drafted it for the Judiciary Committee. If Fitzgerald believes Plame was covert, why didn’t he indict anyone? Clearly he’s not afraid of indictments because he went after Libby for the perjury trap he set. Fitzgerald knew all along who leaked the name of Valerie Plame. It was Richard Armitage (not a fan of the Iraq war). Fitzgerald never went after Armitage - in fact he told Armitage he didn’t need a lawyer.

Nitro Jun 10th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Well your set of facts is interesting, however, one could argue your locic is somewhat based upon opinion. One look on line at the stories about this case show that there are equally damning testimony, statements, and opinions about the timeline of events pertaining to the Niger story. I do not think this issue is dead.

Here is a link to that timeline with a large bounty of cross references and links. The case is not so black and white. There are a lot of investigations underway by the Government Reform Committee that concern some of the events on this list. We’ll see how these investigations play out.

http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Plame_Leak_timeline

Chris Jun 10th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Nitro,

The Government Reform Committee does not have legal jurisdiction to prosecute anyone criminally. The Plame case was a criminal investigation conducted by a U.S. Attorney. The U.S. Attorney said the investigation is over and he did not charge anyone under the statute regarding outing a covert agent. That’s because Plame was not covert under the law. There is a specific set of facts that one must meet to be covert under the law. Those facts include spending time overseas within the last five years. Plame did not meet the requirements of the statute. Therefore she was not covert under the law.

You have to understand the distinction between political investigations and criminal investigations. Congress does not have the authority to prosecute anyone in a criminal case.

Nitro Jun 10th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
The GRC investigations are to find out weather a criminal investigation is necessary. From what I see, the White House knew the Niger story was bogus before the State of the Union address. That is what this is all about really.

What, you think if Waxman finds something criminal he’s just going to drop it? I don’t think so. You assume I don’t understand what that department is about, but I do. Is that your wish for truthiness showing its ugly head again? I’m not sure.

So what were those specific Republican mistakes about the past six years again? I’m still waiting to know what they were.

Chris Jun 10th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Nitro,

You’re reading the MoveOn.org talking points again. There is a question about Iraq’s connections with Niger. The British still stand by their intelligence with respect to uranium yellow cake from Niger. Furthermore, the Washington Post ran an article debunking Wilson’s op-ed about the issue. Should you wish to read real news instead of Waxman’s press releases or the latest screed from MoveOn.org the WaPo article can be found at this URL:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A39834-2004Jul9

Also, Waxman is a Congressman. Last time I checked, he was not a U.S. Attorney. Where is his authority to prosecute alleged criminal behavior?

Nitro Jun 10th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
That three year old piece is filled with opinion and was published very early on the timeline, three years ago. That’s one story among thousands since then. What were you there or something?

If Waxman needs a US or other attorney, he’ll get one. Please stop the spinning. You’re making me ill.

I don’t even have MoveOn on my links list. Good grief, dude!

You act like you have a chip on your shoulder or something. That or perhaps you hate me so much you’ll use any bully pulpit tactic to get me to shut up. I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish by spinning everything.

Again, what were those mistakes that Republicans talk about making so much?

~That ends the discussion, for now, on that site. I think they got bored with me. Again thanks for any critique.

[billybob537]

1. What these people fail to realize is

they are the minority becouse of their leaders actions and the more they support those actions the smaller their party get's. Dear God let's hope they don't wake up and decry this administration until their voice is that of a single lunatic screaming in the wilderness.

[Nitrogenica]

3. I agree completely. What I struggle with is: should I to point this out to them?

Is it better to let them continue their support of failure or give them some "advice".

Do we just hammer our message hard and not advise them? If their party changed their policies about honesty it would benefit everyone long term. I think they are so damaged even if they listened, it is too late. I think the Republican party is in it's last throes.

[EST]

2. My biggest question would be--

Did you change any minds?

It is not enough to be right and righteous; that's just a cheap thrill and won't make you happy very long.

For a number of years, I was a route salesman and technical representative for an expensive and fairly decent line of test equipment. My demos were good, my presentation human and competent, my technical expertise very high and my sales tops in the office, the district, and, more than haly the time, the region.

No matter what happened, whether I sold anything or not, I would find a fast food place and spend at least a half hour reviewing my performance. What worked? What didn't?
Did I understand the customer's applications and needs as well as he did. Am I invited back and welcomed to present more and other equipment that may fit into his processes and improve his applications?

At the end of that half hour coffee stop I would have at least an eight and a half by sixteen legal pad sheet of notes and was ready for my next appointment with a clear head and no second guessing.

I am not recounting this to show off what a super monkey I am, but to point out that nothing counts if it's all in your head.
Being right isn't enough; it has to show results to be satisfying and rewarding.

Yo' dun good, dood! Now change the world!

[Nitrogenica]

4. TY I will continue, on that site anyway, to take on the talking points.

I'm fairly sure future Republican talking points will be more and more erroneous. I just can't keep quiet anymore. I think going into the next election I will be more confrontational rather than passively commenting positively. I have plenty of resources to do just that.

LOLS....plus I can make things like this:



That's babs face on *'s head.

[EST]

5. Heheh!

Looks like Mitch McConnell's inbred older brother.