Have you ever met an illegal immigrant ?

[jaysunb]

That's if you live outside California or the southwest.

Howard Dean predicted 2 years ago that the republicans would make Mexicans the focus of the 08 election, and while the invasion and continued occupation of Iraq is the #1 issue for the entire country, the immigration hoax is being pushed by the media and others as the most burning crisis we have in this country. ( thanks Lou Dobbs & James Senselessbrener )

I'd like to hear what people think and what they know. Is this a crisis issue where you live ? has Latino immigration affected your life ? has it impacted your area to the point you feel this must be resolved immediately.

Have you ever met an illegal immigrant ?

[atreides1]

1. Not Sure

Do they usually wear signs???;)

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. I don't call human beings illegal

I know lots of undocumented immigrants.

[jaysunb]

5. my bad...

you are absolutely correct.

[barb162]

88. self delete

[Tyrone Slothrop]

95. How do you know they're undocumented?

You're omniscient but the rest of us are uninformed, racist idiots?

[proud2BlibKansan]

101. Oh another one who needs to remember that YOU brought up the R word

I work with families of documented and undocumented immigrants. So yes, I am in a position to know. It's my job.

[wakeme2008]

3. LOL all the time in Roanoke Va...

there must be 15 working at the car wash I use. :shrug:

[RedCappedBandit]

17. Did you ask them?

or are you just assuming

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. So are you asking to see their papers before you let them wash your car?

How do you know they are not US citizens?

[liberal N proud]

Would you know it if you did?

Like they go around advertising that they are illegal.

I sold a car to a Hispanic fellow who paid cash. He had the money it was good money so who am I to ask questions?

[jwirr]

4. Yes, he was brought to my home to get some men's clothing which

he needed to continue his journey from El salvador to Canada. Warm coats and shoes.

[Bjornsdotter]

7. That was...

....so very nice of you.

:hug:

[mike_c]

6. guess I'm disqualified because I live in California...

...but I don't go around asking for folks' papers, so while I can't say for sure, I assume that I've met MANY. They are part of the economic backbone of our community-- both the legal and the illegal economy here in norcal.

[jaysunb]

10. you can quadruple that here in SoCal

our economy would probably collapse without them.

[yurbud]

25. I just figure anybody in a straw cowboy hat and wearing a western shirt is papers impaired

but I don't particularly care apart from the fact that they get abused.

[Hekate]

200. Same here. 27 years ago I was informed that "every restaurant in town would close" without them...

That was back when my future ex-hubby wanted to buy a restaurant/bar, and an experienced local realtor filled us in on the facts of life, some of which were shocking to us -- like INS raids scooping up children so their parents would have to come to the police station to find them, all the easier to deport the parents.

I've given it a lot of thought since then, and I won't belabor it now except to say it is a damn complicated issue that Lou Dobbs doesn't quite get.

And yes, I assume that any number of house cleaners and gardeners I've hired over the years might possibly be paper-impaired -- but I could be wrong, because I've never asked for their papers. In the restaurant (which folded 26 years ago) we did ask for green cards.

And it's pretty aggravating that the last few jobs I had before retirement required ME to provide documents out the wazoo, despite a decades-long personal resume of exclusively-US employment.

Hekate

[BurtWorm]

8. I was in a band with one

and in group therapy with another. They were both British.

[WilliamPitt]

9. If the GOP makes immigration a campaign centerpiece, they will implode

My argument:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/WilliamPitt/270

To answer: yes, many, I live in Boston.

[jaysunb]

16. I was shocked to see Black people waiting tables in Boston

during the 04 Democratic convention...after nearly 40 years in SoCal, it was a bit of a culture shock,as those jobs are strictly Latino in this part of the world.

[Zookeeper]

186. Exactly.

That's the point I keep trying to make to DUers who live in California and the Southwest. Most of the rest of the country is different and has no historic or cultural connection to Latin America, but does have plenty of legal citizens who are doing the jobs that "Americans won't do."

California and the southern border states have been relying on cheap illegal labor for so many decades, that they can't conceive of living without it, as the rest of the country has done up until the last few years. (And, no offense to you jaysunb, but my time living in CA left me with the impression that Californians rarely give much thought to the rest of the country anyway.)

[jaysunb]

194. no offense taken...

I'm well aware of the rather narrow veiw we have of the rest of the country.

btw, I grew up in Cleveland,Ohio and I had never seen anyone other than blacks in what was considered " menial " positions until I moved to California in 1969.

[Bjornsdotter]

11. Lots

....in the Chicago area.
Cheers

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. How do you know?

[Bjornsdotter]

57. A few ways

....some have openly admitted it, some have applied for jobs (when we used to own a trucking company)with no documentation, I attended a high school with a high number of kids of Hispanic descent many who had family members who were not here legally, the 20 people crammed into a house built for 4 people two doors from my parents are all undocumented.

Cheers

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. How do you know the 20 people crammed into a house

are undocumented?

Maybe they are just trying to save money.

[Bjornsdotter]

69. I know

...because the person renting to them has bragged because he can charge them more because they are "ellegals". I assume this is true because they scatter when the police show up.

Cheers


I've also had the pleasure of knowing undocumented people in Sweden, they were all Americans during the Vietnam War

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. You assume?

Just as I suspected.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnLocke]

134. Dude, why so rude?

What are you trying to prove?

[Lasher]

199. This is an underhanded way to call people racists. (EOM)

[deadmessengers]

12. Sure have

Strangely enough, the ones that I've been known and able to say for certain that were illegal haven't been Mexican, or any other Latino for that matter. One of my closest friends is a Canadian who's here illegally (he moved here on a spouse visa, and simply "forgot" to leave after his divorce), and I dated a girl for a while who was Irish and here illegally (we broke up after a few dates when it became clear to me that she was looking for a green-card marriage).

Now, on the other hand, the house 2 doors down from me was inhabited by 3 Mexican families for a while. I'd imagine that there were at least a few illegals in that group, but I can't really be certain, as the language barrier prevented any real communication or friendship with those neighbors.

[judaspriestess]

72. how do you know they were specifically "Mexican"

maybe they were from another LATIN country

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. Amazing how many don't know that we have lots of immigrants

from many countries. They don't all come from Mexico.

[deadmessengers]

116. The big Mexican flag on their porch was a clue.

Also the "Jalisco" in Gothic script on the back window of one of their pickup trucks.

[judaspriestess]

150. Thank you for clarifying

:)

[jaysunb]

153. yes...those would certainly indicate a bit more than passing interest

:rofl:

[Hekate]

201. ROFL!

:rofl:
Jeez -- SOME things are not subtle, are they? And not ALL assumptions are racist, either!

Hekate

[Lasher]

202. Best response I've read all week.

:toast:

[Sequoia]

216. Sorry, that does not really qualify.

They could have family from there but born in the USA. I have a French flag and never been there, nor have family from there. One guy I interviewed for a job with looked at my Scottish-Spanish Last name and asked me which was my maiden name because he always got confused about that. It finally became clear to me that he thought I was from Mexico or my husband was when neither one of us are nor have any relations in Mexico, much less South America. Dolt. I barley give him the time of day because I think he's a bigot. Jerk, I have a family castle in Scotland so don't mess with me you serf you!

[knitter4democracy]

13. I don't think so.

We have many Latinos in our area as migrant farmers and all, but they're living here in houses and neighborhoods and are a part of the community. We know the family of the editor of one of the local Spanish language weeklies, but they're legal immigrants, as far as I know (lovely family, and our daughter and their youngest are good friends). I know some in the area seem worried, but that's because they don't know Spanish and don't want anyone who isn't white living near them.

One of our Dem county commissioners is Latino, and we all love him. Great guy. We're looking at getting more from the local Latino community involved in our local party.

[Rhythm]

14. I worked for a poultry processor in western Virginia for a few years...

There were 5 or 6 poultry plants (mostly turkeys, but some chicken processors), and at least 90% of the employees were of Mexican, Central American, or South American origin.

I suspect that the vast majority of my co-workers were undocumented, but frankly, i didn't care. I would have handed them all 'green cards', because i had never encountered, when taken as a whole, so many people willing to work so hard. Most of them lived within walking distance to the plants, and lived almost communally, so that they could wire money home to their families each week.

If i had to choose, i would have replaced most of the other 10% (especially the "good ol' boys"), because it seemed to be the 'legal' citizens who worked there who caused most of the problems, and did less than their fair share.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

15. Yep, here in DC.

Is it a crisis? I'd say it is for them, quite honestly. They're living in one of the most expensive metropolitan areas and they can't even guarantee themselves minimum wage for busting their ass all day. The quality of life for these people is horrendous, usually with multiple families renting tiny 1 bedroom apartments. Now, I'm not entirely sure why they'd move to a place like this, instead of a far cheaper area, but that's not a question for me to answer.

Has Latino immigration affected your life? Not appreciably, outside of the obvious that they're likely responsible for services I use (such as eating at a restaurant).

Has it impacted my area to the point where it must be resolved immediately? No, but my concern lies more with ensuring basic human rights to these people. Coming into the country illegally, they cannot go to the police if they have a problem, for fear of deportation. They're afraid of going to a hospital. If their employer decides not to pay them, they have no legal recourse. They're often little more than indentured servants. This is no way to live.

At the same time, I do not think we should completely open up our borders either, so just granting amnesty really isn't the way to go. I think there ARE national security risks, far greater than any risk Iraq could have ever posed to us. I think there have to be considerations on overpopulating the country as well.

Personally, my plan would be to 1) crackdown on people and corporations hiring illegal immigrants. 2) Streamline the INS system so that those who intend to immigrate can do so easily. 3) Ramp up quotas, so far more people can immigrate to the country legally. And then 4) shut down the border as securely as possible.

[laura888]

231. Bingo! As one DC resident to another...

...you nailed it.

[mzmolly]

18. I've met several.

And I have been effected, by their stories as well as the fact that they competed for jobs with my blue collar family members. I've also witnessed immigrants being "abused" by people who threatented to turn them in if they complained about XYZ.

That said, how many people bitching about immigration are actually competing with immigrants for construction jobs? And why is it less of a "burden" to compete locally vs. internationally via the free trade frenzy? And, why not tax the sh*t out of companies who outsource labor in order to pay for the immigration influx here? ;)

Sorry to blather, but whether we are exporting jobs or importing slave labor, it has an impact.

[Zookeeper]

189. "..competing for construction jobs.."

Even if one isn't a construction worker, there is reason to be concerned about maintaining a middle-class in this country. Hiring the cheapest possible labor (which is going to be illegal workers, who can be underpaid and exploited), suppressing wages and pocketing the extra profit is the game plan for the neo-cons and corporations. Creating insecurity in the working and middle-classes keeps them from demanding "too much."

Illegal workers are pawns in this game.

[mzmolly]

243. Exactly.

Illegal immigration also helps with the task of weakening unions.

[JitterbugPerfume]

19. they used to pick tomatoes ,

and work in a canning factory in my hometown

They just looked like hard working people to me.( I live in good ole red Indiana)

[RedCappedBandit]

23. Of course they look like hard working people

thats what they are

[no_hypocrisy]

20. NJ. She worked as a companion for an elderly man.

I'm not making this up.

She was paid $900.00 cash per week ($700 salary and $200 for food).
No rent or utilities. Lived with the man.
Spent $50 a week for food and invested the rest in international money funds.
She ended up purchasing the biggest house in the small town in San Salvador where her family lived.
And bought a home with rooms she leased in suburban New Jersey.
And a half interest in a strip mall.
Never paid taxes b/c it was all in cash.

When the man died, she was hysterical and ready to throw herself into the grave after his coffin. I think I can understand why as the cash dried up and she had to move.

[jaysunb]

30. This sounds kinda fishy to me...

reminds me of the Reagan " welfare queen " meme of the 80's.

[no_hypocrisy]

37. I was personally familiar with the situation, but I can understand your

skepticism. The thing reads surrealistic to me too. It was insanity.

[Sal Minella]

38. Exactly what I was thinking.

Or the guy who bought an orange at the grocery store with a $20 food stamp and took the hard cash change to the liquor store to spend. (not possible, of course, but neither were a lot of Reagan's other stories)

[no_hypocrisy]

51. I reiterate: I know it because while I wasn't involved in the decision-making,

I knew about the situation as I was given new installments by the son of the man involved. He was appalled by what he saw. His sister was making all the decisions and she was never at the house to see what was going on. For instance, she didn't know that for the $700 a week (salary) that the woman turned on the television and left her charge alone while she retired into another part of the house to do internet stock trading. And she didn't know that the woman didn't make meals in consideration of her charge's advanced age and health. She would simply make food for herself and give a portion to the man. (Not to mention she left milk and meat out of the counter instead of refrigerating them.)

The man's son and daughter were not speaking very much to each other at the time, so she never heard about all this. And from your comments, it's likely she too would have had a hard time believing this scenario.

But I swear it's true.

P.S. This woman thought she was alone in the house with her charge, but the son was in the other room. He heard her try to get the man to marry her. No threats but repetitious cajoling.

[jaysunb]

64. Seriously, this story , while altogether possible

seems to be overly embellished--probably by feuding relatives--but, I can tell you a personal story that I KNOW to be true.

Back in the 90's when my youngest sons were 5&6 years old we had a nanny/housekeeper that lived in 5 days a week and went to her sisters on weekends. During the 5 years she was with us, she was paid between 250. & 350. a week. She ate with us or alone, never spent any money other than for gifts for her 3 kids she left behind in Mexico.
When she decided in 1996 to return to her home in Jalisco, she had nearly 5k in savings and had supported her mother and kids by sending money home every week.
Upon her return, she set up a small roadside refreshment stand that services the workers at a nearby ranch.

We've kept in touch over the years--my boys are friends with her kids who live here now--and have visited with her on trips to Tia juana when she's there to visit with friends and family on this side.

My point is...it is certainly possible ( under the right circumstances) to do well here, but to get rich, like it seems your person has, seems implausible.

[no_hypocrisy]

67. I understand. It WAS the "perfect storm". It was insanity I assure you.

The reason she could parley the cash into big investment profits is that a fellow congregant at her church was a financial advisor and "took care" of compatriot immigrants as he made a profit with his business and he felt he was doing them a favor. She knew nothing about investing.

[sinkingfeeling]

40. And had the man picked a local, native-born NJ girl as his companion, would the story be any

different? My sub-contractor on my house, paid all his people cash and not one was other than a white male.

[no_hypocrisy]

55. The difference IMO is that this woman knew how to use the system.

She was paid in cash.
She paid no income taxes.
Paid no property taxes or rent, so she didn't contribute anything to the public education her two
sons received.
Drove w/o insurance.
Invested her money out of this country.
My taxes paid for her ambulance ride to the hospital, the delivery of her two sons, and their medical care while she did not contribute a dime.

And yes, a native-born could have done the same thing, but the fact of the matter is that this woman just drove across the border and stayed and made a killing using the system to her advantage. She had no interest in becoming an American but wanted everything this country had to offer without the reciprocity of citizenship.

[sinkingfeeling]

76. And the similar story I recall, the native born American ended up killing the old man after

she had gotten him to put her as his heir! Anybody paid in cash , pays no income taxes. And the percentage of Americans having no tax liability is already at an all time high of 32.4%. If you don't own a home, you don't pay property taxes anyway. How do you know she had no insurance? Anyone is free to invest their money out of the country. I think your personal bias is showing.



http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2005/06/percentage_of_a.html

[no_hypocrisy]

81. I'm not certain where the bias is. All I've done is recount the facts

without even suggesting whether or not I approved or disapproved of the her save for the fact that she exploited her situation. It's almost incidental that she was an illegal alien. And the original post was whether or not I had an experience with such a person. This is the story I have. I wasn't trying to suggest that because she was illegal, she was bad. It's her choice of actions that I was questioning.

[RedCappedBandit]

21. I don't know

Am I supposed to assume that the hispanics I meet are "illegal" ?

Well then, I guess I should assume that i'm illegal.


Immigration isn't the issue.. racism is.

[jaysunb]

31. I thought that ( racisim) would be read

between the lines.....

[RedCappedBandit]

34. I just felt the need to be upfront about it

:hi:

[yurbud]

22. one of my students family ran a restaurant here for 20 years, providing jobs, and were deported

all of them.

That's here in Southern California.

[TransitJohn]

24. There are some here

in Wyoming, working in truckstops along interstate 80, and shepherding.

[High Plains]

218. Those were Basque shephards!

Or at least they were in the 60s and 70s, when I was in the area.

No idea about their legal status.

[TransitJohn]

219. still some basques....

...but most of those oldtimers are gone, now. :hi: hi HighPlains

[Tyrone Slothrop]

27. I've worked with LOADS in downstate Illinois

I did lots of restaurant work in college (about 6-7 years ago).

Pretty much every dishwasher I ever worked with was.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Oh did you ask to see their papers?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

94. No, becuase they didn't have any

According to our resident Latino liason/translator.

I figured someone would respond like this. As if legal immigrants would leave their wives and families in Mexico, squeeze 16 people into 4 bedroom apartment (and, yes, I saw one or two of those too -- I used to buy my weed from one of them) and interchangably show up to fill the same position at our restaurant.

:eyes:

What next? Gonna call me a racist?

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

136. It has to be a guess

It has to be based on a guess; who asks people to show their green cards when they are just talking to them?

I think the educated guess will do for this thread.

Is it really racist? The illegal might admit to it if they speak English but they might not want to - an illegally present alien is likely to be unwilling to discuss that anyway - people who are recent arrivals can still be guessed at without much harm to them - especially for purposes of a question on a message board.

Granted maybe the individuals described all had green cards or were native born US citizens whose ancestors were in the area long before those of anyone of European descent. It's just the odds are low if they are not speaking English yet.

The point is that they aren't hurting any US citizens, in spite of their proclamations of "crisis.'

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. I don't ask to see a green card when I meet a foreign national.

So I wouldn't know.

Has Latino immigration affected my life to the point it needs to be resolved immediately? Well, there are those guys that show up at 7:15 in the morning every couple weeks with their big assed mowers to cut the grass at my apartment complex. Right under my bedroom window! 7:15!!

There oughta be a law!

[verse18]

33. Yep.

As a Social Worker in a pediatric hospital. We treat all the children in our region including "anchor babies" and provide services for them and their families, who are likely undocumented.

[snappyturtle]

35. Well, many here do not seem to feel the way I feel.

I guess we should just erect welcome centers along the border and allow the invasion to continue.

There are right and wrong ways to enter this country. I am for legal immigration at a rate in which we and the immigrants can assimilate. Many communities cannot afford the monetary obligations that comes with too many people for too little space in schools, neighborhoods and the job market. I have met many illegals especially in jobs where I need an English answer. I believe employers have hired some to service their Spanish speaking customers. Unfortunately, these individuals are not bi-lingual. It's a sad situation but it's long past time for Mexico and Central America to address poverty in their nations. God knows we haven't done it here but............imho

[RebelOne]

36. Plenty of them.

I live just northwest of Atlanta in a mobile home park. There are many Hispanics living here and just about half of them are illegals.

[alkaline9]

39. I knew of one family here in NJ...

...shortly after the daughter graduated from a local high school we never saw the family again. Deported? Relocated? They tried to keep a secret of their illegal status, but you know how hs kids are with gossip. I don't know what they did, although the wealth in this area draws many contracted laborers (I'm assuming both legal and illegal).

I think these immigrants, both legal and illegal, serve our corporatist needs. Our economy would not be what it is without these workers. We need 2 things, employment protections for the immigrant workers and proper tax collection for said workers. Other than that, there isn't a big issue here.

[napi21]

41. YEP! Lots work in Gainesville, Ga. at the chicken processing plants.

It's actually quite well known.

The BIG problem I have with undocumented workers is that, because of their status, they are extremely easy targets for abuse by their employers! They're also willing to work for almost any wage because it's better than what's available in their home Country. The employers exploit them, and they can't really complain because the results would be deportion. So they continue to work for obscenely low pay, live in old partially destroyed trailers with 20+ to a trailer and they sleep in shifts based upon the work shift they have.

If those workers did NOT exist, the owners of the chicken processing plants would have no choice but to pay at the veryy lease MIN. WAGE, and they'd have to comply with all the occupational laws too! Would my chicken cost a bit more? probably yes, but I think everyone wuld be making more $$ too!

[snappyturtle]

54. Exactly! nt

[sandnsea]

146. Less Shareholder Profits

We've got to start thinking like the corporatists on this. Tennis shoes don't cost one penny less just because they're made overseas. The difference is how much money the investor class gets. A chicken can only cost what the market will bear. The chicken producer has to figure out how to divy up that money, and will cut profits if that's what it takes to stay in business.

[spoony]

193. Excellent post n/t

[Lasher]

197. That's called hot racking

Some submariners don't get their own sleeping space, so they have to share. I believe the Navy usually assigns 3 people to two bunks, or 'racks' when the practice is employed. Sometimes a rack is still warm when a sailor gets in because another person has just gotten out. Thence the term, 'hot racking'.

It should have occurred to me that some desperate people had resorted to this tactic, as it is not uncommon to see accounts of extremely overcrowded lodging arrangements. But until now I guess this particular aspect just hadn't sunk in. :-(

[Warpy]

42. One always sticks in my mind

a Guatemalan who couldn't have been older than about 17 who was terrified to tell us anything, not even when he was in pain, when he was brought into the hospital. We all assured him we weren't La Migra, but he was still terrified. That memory has haunted me for a long time.

Then there was the Chilean who had fled Pinochet with only the clothing on his back, no money, no papers at all.

Then there were the Irish I'd met at pubs in Boston, dry wallers and plasterers, nannies and au pairs who had long outstayed their visas. Since Ireland has had an offshoring boom, they've likely gone back home. At the time, they were fleeing hugely high unemployment.

So yes, I've known quite a few illegals, undocumented workers, whatever phrase you want to use. They were all here trying to survive better than they could at home, just like my family who came over.

The illegals aren't the problem. The people who exploit them at shit wages Americans know they can't live on are the problem. That's what we have to attack by enforcing the laws already on the books.

[ComerPerro]

43. I have, and most of them were working their asses off

[lonestarnot]

44. One crashed into my new car. No DL, ins. or registration. Her

car confiscated.

[The Straight Story]

45. When I lived in Ohio, quite a few - and my friend's job went bye-bye as well

He was making $12/hr hanging dry wall for a small company, he was replaced by illegals making $6.50-7.00/hr. He knew the owner and the guy said he was sorry, but he could not keep up with the other local companies when bidding jobs. It made sense on a business level (money wise) but the problem has gotten bad in those areas (ie a lot more competition than years back from low wage workers).

There was an ample supply, if one left/got caught he picked up another laborer the next day (he is still doing this as of May 2nd when I last talked to my friend before moving).

[Zodiak]

97. Ohio has been hit very hard by undocumented laborers

There are hundreds that live in my apartment complex and work in the local area. Many nationalities, mostly nice people (we had MS-13 people selling drugs, too).

I have also noticed that service jobs that used to feature a variety of workers now are almost entirely hispanic, and they cannot speak but a few words of English. I do not know their legal status (unlike the many restauraunts where the entire wait staff is aware of it), but I cannot imagine this sudden influx of thousands is a result the slow trickle of legal immigration.

And salaries are ubiquitously low in these service jobs.....lower around here than they were 5 years ago.

Ohio has a real problem with illegal immigration and its attendant effects on the lowest rungs of the economic ladder.

[sentelle]

46. I've lived in NYC and the Puget sound area

Yes, absolutely.
Sure some of the undocumented immigrants I've met were hispanic. Many more were asian. Some were european as well. Yet the sentiment I hear is particularly an anti-hispanic bias. I don't like that

I'm not so fond of the idea of people entering the country without due process though. I've sponsored an immigrant before, and I do not feel it is fair to the legal immigrants who put up with a lot of paperwork, interviews, physical exams and money to come here, only to discover many people that get here without all that.

The solution is to enforce the current law, not to create a immigrant worker caste. Lets face it, the reason that people are crossing the borders is for jobs. The reasons those jobs exist for undocumented workers is because those that use these types of workforces don't want to pay minimum wage for their work. Does anyone think that the employers that are employing undocumented workers will play by the new rules, when the old rules were not enforced?

Of course, using minimum wage labor for these jobs would wind up costing more to the consumer, but perhaps we ought to know what the real cost is to the meat we eat, or the plants we grow. If we did, we might come up with better laws.

[jaysunb]

53. Welcome to DU

and thanks for your thoughts. :hi:

[unpossibles]

47. a small handful, yes

I have worked in construction and in food service, and met a lot of immigrant workers, some here illegally, some semi-legally and trying to be legal, and some legally. One thing I noticed is that not everyone who is an immigrant is a Mexican - not by far - although this is how it is presented in the MSM. Some immigrants come here on work visas and stayed when they expired, or as students or whatever. People are people, and the vast majority of the immigrant workers I've met were just like the American workers more or less. Sure, they may be willing to work longer hours and stay with many friends in a single apartment, but for the most part they are just trying to do better for themselves like anyone.

I have asked this question of people who talk about "Mexicans" - how many do they know personally? Usually it's around "zero" although every now and then you hear a "some of my best friends are...." type of answer. :eyes:

[CC]

48. Yes and some I know because they

talked about it. Some from Mexico but more from Ireland, Sweden and New Zealand. No big deal though people do need to realize not all undocumented immigrants have brown skin. I have to add in about the hard working part. One place the guys from Mexico (both documented and undocumented) had fits because they cut back their hours from 80 a week to 60. Most went looking for a second job to make up for the cut in hours. BTW this place does not pay minimum wage. Starting pay is $10..00 and hour. Same place also provides lawyers free of charge and helps try to get undocumented workers green cards.



Edited to add- I probably know more from Mexico though I don't ask. It is just the that New Zealanders, Irish and Swedes tend to talk about being undocumented more.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. Many times.

Here in SW Washington there are a lot of immigrants. "Legal" and "illegal". We have a lot of migrant workers on the farms around here, mostly Latino, and most probably "illegal". Also, a lot of immigrants working in hospitals, restaurants, car washes, driving trucks, etc. Also, a large Russian/Ukrainian/Belorussian population.

I don't "know" that every immigrant is "legal" or "illegal" because I don't ask...and don't care. They're all just people living their lives as best they can. Like me. Like everyone else.

[raccoon]

50. Is this a crisis issue where you live ? No.

has Latino immigration affected your life ?

My college Spanish has improved to where I have a decent speaking knowledge. :-)

I've met Latinos and I like their culture.

has it impacted your area to the point you feel this must be resolved immediately. No.

Have you ever met an illegal immigrant ? Not that I know of. "Don't ask, don't tell."

[ingac70]

52. I met some folks who used to be illegal...

An English family that benefited from Reagan's 86 amnesty. They had been in the US illegally since the late 70's.

[NOLALady]

56. Before the storm

I hadn't seen any people of Hispanic origin in my area. About 2-3 days after the storm I saw the first Latinos in my area. They were wearing Halliburton T Shirts. I felt like screaming! First Katrina, then Halliburton!
Now, we have quite a few of them. I don't know if they are documented or not.

I hired two different contractors to work on my home following the storm, and both had Hispanic workers. I fired the first contractor when I learned how he misused the Hispanic workers. So, I hired a good, honest, Christian Church-Going Contractor. Yep! He was fired also for the same reason. Eventually a family member had to finish the job.

As far as I know, the locals have been appreciative and supportive of our new neighbors. They've held special Church functions for them. A new store opened specializing in Mexican food. So far, I have not heard any complaints.
In fact, I just learned that a family who recently moved into our neighborhood are Latino and not Creoles of Colouer as I had presumed.

I live in a very red area, but I have never heard anyone complain about immigration.

[Zookeeper]

196. If I remember correctly, BushCo allowed an exemption....

to minimum wage laws for Katrina clean-up. That meant more profit for Haliburton when they imported low-wage labor and probably discouraged African-Americans from returning to NOLA to take the clean-up jobs because the wages were too low.

[TreasonousBastard]

58. Hah! Ever been to Chinatown in NY? Or...

the Portuguese and Brazilian restaurants ini New Jersey? Or a gas station or 7-11? Or...

The New York metro area may not be that unusual in the number of immigrants, but it's got a lot of them, and I've seen enough people "disappear" after immigration raids. Most are Hispanic, of course, but that's really only because there are so many Hispanics emigrating. Chinese, Jamaican, Haitian, Japanese, Turkish, Arab, Korean, Persian, Indian, Thai... And loads of Europeans of all flavors-- little Italys and Polishtowns are haven't disappeared and you can't get a seat on a plane to London around Christmas with all the Brits heading home.

Problems? Of course. But, on the whole they make positive contributions around here and no one seriously would want any of them, documented or otherwise, to go. Most of us agree that the local economies would collapse without them.

Forget this bullshit putting the onus on the immigrants-- enforce the wage and hour laws we have to discourage business from using immigrant labor to deflate wages. Otherwise, don't fix what ain't broke.

[Squatch]

59. Yes. I've even helped identify, capture, and detain them.

The last group was a bunch of 20- and 30-somethings from Oaxaca.

[jaysunb]

65. Why'd you do that ?

what was the problem ?

[Squatch]

66. Um...the problem was they were entering this country illegally.

And stopping them was my job.

[jaysunb]

68. Oh...

I thought maybe you were just being helpful...like the Minutemen.
btw, have you ever caught or been able to identify any whites ?

Oh well, good luck and stay safe.

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. Were you a border patrol agent?

[Squatch]

83. National Guard

[proud2BlibKansan]

86. How did you feel about being used that way?

[Squatch]

89. I'd rather be doing that than killing people in Iraq

that's for sure.

I don't agree with our current immigration policy, per se, but I felt our presence on our *own* border is a much better application of the NG than invading/occupying a foreign country.

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. Glad to hear that

Yes, I am glad you are not in Iraq.

[july302001]

239. THANK YOU

It's time for me to say "thank you" for protecting Americans' jobs.

Borders need to be protected.

This is not a matter of prejudice or racismo.

I love Mexican food, and I happen to speak some Spanish. I rarely eat at corporate American fast food places. I commonly eat at family-owned Mexican restaurants.

However, I've seen what the high level of illegal immigration has done to the job market in my home state.

Wages in construction and local manufacturing are stagnating at $8-$9.50/h and haven't budged for several years. The good $10-15/h jobs that were once in this area in the furniture and textile industries have gone overseas.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

60. "Illegal immigration" isn't just for brown people....

That's what cracks my ass up about this whole "debate" -- "illegal immigration" has become synonymous with "brown people from south of our border".

I live in San Francisco, a town chock full of people who have come here and remain here illegally. A huge number of those are from Mexica, El Salvador, and Nicaragua. An equally large number are from Asia, primarily China. And an equally large number are white Europeans, primarily Ireland and England.

The number of Irish illegals in construction in this town is huge. But I am willing to bet a million $$$ that when someone sees Mr. Whitebread Irishman swinging a hammer on a job site, there isn't a soul whose first thought is "illegal immigrant taking away our jobs!" Now, make that carpenter a brown guy -- illegally here or not, and I am willing to bet the same money that "illegal immigrant" does enter the picture.

The only crisis in my mind from undocumented workers in my area is that, without some sort of legal standing, they remain vulnerable to exploitation and abuse. They are also forced to live their lives on the fringes and in fear.

[Bjornsdotter]

114. Exactly

....most of the undocumented people in my parents neighborhood are European...mostly Irish and Polish. Around there most of them work in construction.

Cheers

[Lasher]

208. In 2000 there was a total of 3,000 unauthorized residents from Ireland in the USA

Every single one of them must have flocked to San Francisco to apply for jobs in the construction industry.

[LanternWaste]

61. I'm disqualified since I live in TX, but....

I'm disqualified from your question since I live in TX, but I dated an illegal immigrant two years ago (and am currently trying to work my in with another young lady who happens to be one also).

So I guess the Latina population has affected my life... but only in positive ways. :)

[Swamp Rat]

63. More than I can count.

For the most part, I like them more than the average American. They seem to work harder and contribute more to (my) society, and were the only ones helping me after hurricane Katrina that did not rip me off.

También, yo soy un producto de inmigrantes ilegales.

[Dorian Gray]

70. Of course

I live in NYC, and I know quite a few illegal immigrants. Most of the immigrants I know who are here illegally are actually Irish. They work in the service industry: bartenders and wait staff at many Irish pubs around the city. I've also done work with some health care organizations who do work with the uninsured, and a good percentage of the people who came in every day were here in the USA illegally. (We knew because they didn't have social security cards.) The majority of those patients were Latino, primarily Mexican, though from other countries as well. (Lots of Ecuadorians and Guatamalans.)

Oh, and I must not forget my dear friends. They are a gay couple, and one of them is from south america. He was here illegally for many years, as they could not marry. He finally bit the bullet (because of deportation threats) and married his boyfriend's cousin. And his boyfriend married his South American sister, so that she can move here. A huge, complicated mess, and another reason why the homosexual population gets shortchanged. Immigration laws are not their friend.

[Rydz777]

71. I'm sure I've met quite a few, but I didn't check their papers. nt

[sniffa]

73. quite a bunch actuaLLy

and from aLL over the worLd: ireLand (the main ones around here), india, sLovakia, russia, and one guy from a carribean country (beats me. i didn't even know he wasn't from here untiL he missed about 3+ months of work because he was in the detention pen) who was LegaL, but Lost his status at some point, are the ones that i know are iLLegaL.

i'm sure i know many more.

[wicket]

74. Yes, I've met plenty here in Boston area

n/t

[sniffa]

75. ditto - right above you

:hi:

[sinkingfeeling]

77. To all who've answered 'Yes'. How did you know these people were illegals? Did they tell you?

Many of the dishwashers, chicken-plant workers, and maids have green cards.

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. I want to know that as well.

[Squatch]

84. You could watch them cross the border in the desert.

Therefore, they were pretty easy to categorize as illegal entrants into the US.

[Throd]

85. Yes, they told me.

[EFerrari]

92. Yes, they told us. They were honest. n/t

[uppityperson]

93. 1 person told me, was an illegal immigrant from England.

Had overstayed (visa?) by several years and could not get "real" job without worrying about being deported. She was white, mid 30's, wanted to stay in USA but not go through paperwork to stay. She was worried that she would get into big trouble by contacting authorities to fix paperwork, so was working and living under the table, hoping never got picked up for a traffic violation, unable to cross into Canada, etc.

[Richard Steele]

109. Actually, their crew chief did.

He was here legally, and had worked construction
until he saved enough $$$ to buy his own van, tools,
and trailer and become an independant businessman.

Oh, and there's a homeless guy I know of, who doesn't
speak any english- I just kinda assume he didn't do
any paperwork to get where he is.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

130. Just about everyone I have known has been....

very upfront about it, and then there are times that it is clear but just not talked about.

I currently work with three very nice men who have to come up with new SS numbers every year when SS contacts the owner to say their existing numbers were not valid. This has been going on for 8+ years -- we know, the boss knows, even SS knows they are undocumented. They all work hard -- two are brothers who live together in a studio apartment in the Tenderloin -- and send everything back to home to take care of their families. They came from poor villages and their work here has enabled their families to get housing and even education. They will probably be here for another ten years or so, or until they are in solid financial shape, and then head home to start local businesses.

[BlackVelvet04]

131. Them getting deported was a pretty good tip off.....

also the fact that some were traveling through the desert in 100 degree weather and asked me for water which I gladly gave them.

This continuous snarky "how did you know" is ridiculous. There are many ways of knowing. Some admit to it. Others betray themselves by their actions. Some get picked up by INS and others just lose their jobs and get deported. I don't assume all Mexicans are illegals and when I say I KNOW one is illegal it's because I do in fact have a way of knowing.

[JohnLocke]

139. Best post of the thread. Thank you for being so rational.

[BlackVelvet04]

149. Thanks.. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

217. We ask because we have found some people do assume

incorrectly that anyone who doesn't speak English, lives in a house with a lot of other people, or comes from Mexico is an undocumented immigrant.

Just read this thread. Plenty of evidence of incorrect assumptions.

[sinkingfeeling]

241. I asked because in the restaurant industry, all those hired present 'green cards'. However, some

have faked ones and it becomes the employer's responsibility to know which ones are real or not. So, a lot of Hispanic workers I've been around have green cards and do not admit to being illegal.

[treestar]

140. We are aware that not every foreigner is illegal

There are some things that one is unlikely to put up with if one is legal, however, so you can make a good guess. Like standing on the street corners waiting for someone to give you a day labor job. Or working in certain industries at the lowest level. Or not speaking English yet and working in a low wage job. If you know much about the immigration laws, you know that green cards are for the lucky few who are related to the right US citizen or have upper level jobs.

How does the government know there are 12 to 13 million aliens illegally here? It seems it would have no way of knowing.

Besides, my thinking someone is illegal does not hurt them. I could be wrong, and I can keep that in mind. If I am going to employ them, I have to ask, because of the I-9 law.

[Nikia]

162. I know a couple of legal immigrants who don't speak English

My friends mother does not speak English despite the fact that her husband who immigrated at the same time as her speaks English and has become a U.S. citizen. My sister's boyfriend's parents are also legal immigrants who have been in this country for a significant amount of time but don't speak English.
Some non Enlgish speaking immigrants work in low level jobs because of the language issue.

[treestar]

183. This is true too

The laws we have actually reward a lucky few older people, and they are too old to learn English well.

I know of legal immigrants who will never speak English. The system we have allows in people who are fifty or more who will never assimilate, but who have waited out the long quotas.

Yet our economy needs younger people who will and can assimilate, but the laws assure they will NEVER to able to come legally. I know several people who speak great English but who never qualify under the current laws in their lifetime. It is almost hilarious how conservatives want the current laws enforced, yet they favor people who can never assimilate.

The system we have now is nothing short of insane.

[Zookeeper]

198. Interesting points. I know a Chinese family who immigrated...

here legally and then sponsored the wife's mother. The kids are totally "American," the parents speak English very well, but the older "grandmother" doesn't speak English and keeps herself fairly isolated from the world outside of their home.

I imagine there are many situations like that because of the priority given to family members of recent immigrants.

[Hekate]

214. Yes, I was told.Also when it costs pennies to go home and thousands to return here, that's a clue...

...that someone is having to pay a smuggler to get back in.

We're not stupid. And we're not racists. We live with a complicated reality, but it's one that we can't solve as individuals.

The ones who have fubar'd all these human beings are the men running national governments, both here in the US and across the border in Latin America -- they and their corporate masters.

About all we can do is try to act with compassion and ethics to individuals in our path, and pay an honest wage to anyone we hire regardless of color or language.

How many people running a modest household and not a business ask for I-9 forms or withold Social Security taxes when they hire someone to hack back the foliage or help with Spring cleaning? I suppose if you haven't seen papers you can assume what you like, but if you get to know folks over time you also hear a bit of their life-history, and sometimes information comes out...

Hekate

[Throd]

82. Many many

I lived in west Long Beach for 10 years (90813). Lots of illegals. How did I know? Once they got to know me, they would freely tell me their immigration status. Most of them were just poor people trying to scrape by and maintain a low profile. A few were criminal a-holes that should have been deported.

[EFerrari]

87. I've worked side by side with undocumented workers.

One of them cared for my grandmother for nearly ten years before her death. My mom couldn't afford a nurse so she had this lady come and live with us and she was paid well but not as much as a registered nurse which Mom couldn't afford. We traded shifts.

She was amazing and kind and patient and we will always be grateful to her for helping us when we had nowhere else to turn.

This is only a crisis if you are a Republic strategist trying to fan hatred which has been their fall back position since LBJ signed the civil rights bill and meant to cover Junior's miserable failures. Go hate over there!

[jaysunb]

155. They didn't fool you, did they ....

me either. :evilgrin:

I'm still trying to figure out how they came up w/ the number and if it's only latinos. I can remember back when Lou Dobbs first started beating this drum, he was declaring there were 3 to 4 million, but as each day passed the number grew until I guess they thought they'ed settle at 12-13 million.

Ah, the bullshit.....

[EFerrari]

160. What kind of umbrellas can we organize to fend off this bull?

:)

[jaysunb]

170. Wide ones

plus deep boots and face masks. :rofl:

[EFerrari]

176. Crikey! It sounds like a picnic in Wild Kingdom.

:rofl:

[Lasher]

209. By conservative estimate there are 12 million unauthorized residents living in the US today

The unauthorized resident population in the US doubled between 1990 and 2000, from 3.5 million to 7 million. Assuming the rate of growth during the decade ending 2000, there are 12 million today. One reason I say 12 million is a conservative estimate on my part is that I have not taken into account the acceleration of growth toward the end of that decade.

This might be the way 'they' came up with the number. I don't know the year when Lou Dobbs first started beating his drum, but it would have been accurate to say in 1990 that there were 3 to 4 million, with 3.5 million probably being more precise. It has not been disingenuous to report increasingly higher numbers over time since then because the unauthorized resident population has grown.

Today's 12 million unauthorized residents are not all latinos, but most are. In 2000 there were 4.9 million from Mexico alone, which was 68.7% of the total of 7 million at that time. 6.1 million were from North and South America, excluding 47,000 from Canada.

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/Ill_Report_1211.pdf

Your complaint of bullshit is unfounded.

[Hekate]

215. Is that because the conservatives are doing the estimating? lol--couldn't resist. nt

edited for typo

[Lasher]

221. I can't believe I left myself open for that one.

Got meeeee....I caint feel muh legs no more.....

Thanks fer tha fun! :hi:

[jaysunb]

227. Dobbs has been at it for about

2 years now, so I guess it's safe to assume someone finally gave him some actual data.

[Lasher]

228. JohnLocke is sharing some similar information downthread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1040112&mesg_id=1046498

Maybe better than what I have offered, maybe not I don't yet know. But good for him.

It is good that we join in fair debate and communicate honestly based on facts available to us. I am developing some contempt for those who recklessly call others racists and xenophobes with an obvious intent to suppress discussion in favor of their preconceived notions about what the immigration policies of the USA should be.

[jaysunb]

229. Sorta the reason for this thread...

I want people to see what others feel first hand. It sometimes helps people to get a better picture than they might from biased (Dobbs?) sources.

Blaming the "others" is an old American sport that has cause immesurable pain and grief for everyone. :hi:

[Lasher]

245. I appreciate the opportunity to be enlightened by so many unbiased views (EOM)

[barb162]

90. Yes to all of your questions

I think the current laws should have been enforced the last several years and any immigrant should get in line and apply like all other immigrants from all other countries. No new law is needed.

[kskiska]

91. My ex-S.O. met loads of them in S.C.

He worked for a government agency (TELAMON), which provided transition services for migrants wanting to other types of work. Strangely, I don't see any mention of legality being a prerequisite for employment on their website.
http://www.telamon.org/showstate.aspx?contentid=110&folderid=76

He taught ESL classes for these migrants.

On the side, he would also translate Spanish language birth certificates and other papers for Hispanics passing through.

He also had a temporary job with the state job service, traveling out to peach farms inspecting living quarters for migrants. The housing is segregated - Hispanics (mostly illegal), who are greatly preferred by the farmers as better workers, and blacks.

The Hispanics travel up and down the east coast, hearing through the grapevine where the work is. A local barbershop serves as an information center. When the season is over they return home to their families.

[Madspirit]

98. I am from Texas

I know this was supposed to exclude people from the area of the Southwest. I have tons of illegal friends. That's what always slays me about these threads and the people against illegals. They talk about them like they are talking about The Other...some species unknown...some alien invader from Mars... It's like Jesus fucking Christ man...what is wrong with you people. I will hide my friends; I will lie for them. I will do whatever it takes to keep them safe and HERE. The people who talk about them like they are subhuman...different...whatever...make me sick.

...and then they get all whiny when we accuse them of being racist or xenophobic. My God...you should hear the way they speak.
Lee

[etherealtruth]

102. I've met several ...

None of which were from Latin America

[Gold Metal Flake]

104. Yes. He was English.

And I am in California. Exclude me if you must.

[Richard Steele]

105. Yes. Working construction here in NC.

They were "impacting my area" by building houses for its
upper-middle-class residents. Not really a "crisis", IMHO.

[Enrique]

106. it's a real issue

sure the issue gets exploited, but it's also a mistake to deny the issue exists.

[PegDAC]

107. An undocumented kid

and his father used to work with my husband. We took them to Fort Sumter with us one Saturday.

[thegreatcause2]

108. restaurant worker

i have worked in restaurants since 1983. my pay is almost the same as 15 years ago, and if you account for inflation, less than years ago. i have learned spanish and love latino people. my thought is the only way you can get ahead in this business is to start your own company and hire hard-working latino people who will work for less money. if it wasn't for the earned income tax credit, i could not make it. i wonder if the earned income tax credit will bankrupt the government if everyone gets papers and qualifies for it?

[jaysunb]

158. Bankruptcy won't be caused by EITC

it will more likely come from the top 5% not paying their share.

btw,welcome to DU.

[Edweird]

110. Yep. Here in south florida it's the only way to be competetive

with construction bids. All the developers squeeze contractors on their bids until there is no way to get around it. Use them, or get underbid. Every time. It sucks.

[Jonathan50]

111. Lost my last job to undocumented workers..

I know because we discussed how much it costs to have a coyote bring them across the border.

Yo tengo muy poquito espanol.

But with a good bit of sign language and if we both speak very slowly I can usually get the gist of what they are trying to say and vice versa.

I even had one of them stay with me for a couple of days and showed him language translating sites on the intertubes.

I can read spanish quite fluently but I don't have a clue what it means. :) Spanish is considerably more phonetic than is english and I learned the phonetics in high school but I've forgotten almost all the vocabulary I learned. The phonetics stayed with me though. Go figure.

I've even been told that my accent is not all that bad.

I would type in what I wanted to say in english and then read the spanish to him, he could read espanol but not well or quickly.

[Aristus]

112. I'm in Washington State, and I work with them every day.

Our clinic offers medical care for everyone, documented or not. I'm happy and proud to be a part of it, and if the goons from Homeland Stupidity want any of our patients, they gotta get through me!

[iamthebandfanman]

113. yup

ive known a couple...
none of them ever effected me in anyway...

tho there are little things here that make the majority of people think all illegals are bad... i know there are atleast 1 or 2 in our court reports every week from being drunk in public or selling drugs... and while there are an equal amount of white criminals doing the same, the mexican names stand out to the white majority.

[MiniMe]

115. Probably, but I don't know for sure

How can you tell? Yell "Immigration" and see how many people run?

[jeffrey_X]

117. Yes...in Chicago.

I'm sure I've "met" a few. I believe the guy we hired to clean our condo is an undocumented immigrant. We recently replaced him due to liability issues and decided to hire a company that was bonded and insured.

[Cleita]

118. As a Californian of course, I have met them, worked along side

them, shopped in the same stores they shopped in, lived in the same neighborhoods at times, and even hired them, although I paid them the same wage as my American workers and took taxes out of their checks. Back then it wasn't illegal to hire them as long as they had a social security number. The business was a restaurant and after string of unreliable legal help in my kitchen, I found the illegals to be reliable and hard working. I worked alongside them in Idaho too, however, there were far fewer than in California

This is just a wedge issue for the election. It's the usual race and gender baiting the conservative are so good at and that the liberals can't seem to overcome at elections. There is a real solution to illegal immigration but the business interests who are benefitting from their near slave labor won't even consider it because it would involve completely changing our foreign policty in Latin American nations.

On edit: I need to add that I have known and worked alongside illegals that weren't from Latin America but Great Britain, Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Australia, New Zealand and Canada.

[Zavulon]

119. I lost a job to an illegal, as did my best friend. Also, in an apartment

about 100 yards from mine there are about 15 illegals, and it is no secret that they're illegal.

These people I'm talking about are not good representatives of the Latino community. They're loud at all hours of the night, they smash bottles in the parking lot, I've seen them throw up in drunken stupors in front of children, they constantly hit up their neighbors for money, and to be honest I would love to see most of them deported (a couple of them in that apartment are pretty good guys and behave themselves, the rest are not ideal neighbors at all).

As a matter of fact, it's because of them that I'm letting my lease expire and moving this August. My next residence will be selected based on a combined criteria of illegal population and price, with the former outweighing the latter. I live in Laurel, Maryland, and everyone I know who knows illegals in his or her area has a similar story - Herndon, Leesburg, Gaithersburg, etc.

I can't move to D.C. because I am a gun owner and don't want to give up my weapons. Taxes on utilities just skyrocketed in Maryland and I predict the same again in short order, so I'm going to move to Virginia (I work in downtown DC), but I want to find a town with little or no illegal population. I'm not sympathetic to the cause at all.

[jeffrey_X]

121. huh?

If I do something bad or good, am I representing the white people?

[Zavulon]

124. Maybe, maybe not, but in either case

if you do something bad, you're not a good representative of the white community, right?

Give me a break. I was looking for a way to phrase the idea that they're all Hispanic without stepping on toes, because the last time I singled out illegals I knew as Hispanic, I was labelled as a racist, a bigot, etc, for stating a simple fact. Would you be so kind as to give me a foolproof way to express the idea that the illegals I know are Hispanic (I know most of them are from Mexico but can't say for sure that all of them are) without having to put up a second post to explain? I'm so tired of this.

[CharmCity]

128. Catch your breath.

There are lots of decent, quiet Hispanics in your area.
Next time we're in Laurel we'll take ya out for a beer and introduce you to a few;)

[Zavulon]

133. Better get here before August, then.

Because most of the ones I'm speaking of don't fit that description. I can't get out of here fast enough.

[treestar]

138. About half of illegal aliens are from Mexico

The other half are from all over, even Europe, if you can believe that.

[JohnLocke]

141. Closer to 60 percent.

57 percent Mexican
24 percent Central American/South American countries
9 percent Asian
6 percent European/Canadian
4 percent from the rest of the world.

(Pew Research, 2005)
http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/44.pdf

[Lasher]

212. There were 68.7% in 2000

See my upthread post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1040112&mesg_id=1046648

I have bookmarked your excellent link, which is more current than mine. I suspect a pro-Latino bias on the part of the Pew Hispanic Center, however.

[treestar]

137. So why did that employer risk hiring an illegal rather than you

which is illegal in itself. Why risk getting himself into trouble over it?

And why didn't you report this - there are channels for prosecution for it.

Could be the other candidate was not illegal.

People have had to move to get jobs for centuries. Your reasons for refusing to move where there might be a better job are frivolous. Even if the guy you lost the job to is illegal, he was willing to travel a long way from home for it. I'm not sympathetic at all to your gun-owning cause of your unemployment.

[sandnsea]

147. Head to Alabama

Sounds to me like you'd fit right in.

[Laughing Mirror]

211. A town in NOVA "with little or no illegal population"

:rofl:

You might find something among the isolated hills or hamlets in southwest VA or maybe the eastern shore, although the commute into the District every day would be almost impossible.

Good luck on your search and please let us know what you come up with.

[murloc]

120. I doubt there is a person here who has not

Illegals are not exactly rare.

[gollygee]

122. Yes - I worked in the office of a construction company for a while

we had quite a few people who weren't able to come up with proper paperwork for their I-9 and therefore were not hired. Not all were Latino either.

[BlackVelvet04]

123. Yes......

lots. Here in VA and in AZ. It's not an issue that particular concerns me as I've lived among immigrants a lot....legal and illegal. For me immigrants are a fact of life.

[CharmCity]

125. All the time in DC and Charm City

Next time you're in a restaurant, pay attention to the busboy. Almost guaranteed he's Hispanic and illegal. I know because my husband is Hispanic and talks to every Hispanic person he runs into wherever we go. Construction crews, janitors, office cleaners, truck drivers, deliver guys, babysitters, housekeepers... and I'm sure working in fields, but we're city folks.

My husband came to the US as an illegal alien from South America in the 80s and ended up with two college degrees from an excellent university. We just celebrated our niece's college graduation. She's planning for law school. She was illegal, too. Her mom is an extremely successful businesswoman. Also were illegal. And all are "legal" now, paying their taxes, going to church (a lot) and all that.

When we discovered our baby's nanny was illegal, we sponsored her immediately -- basically got her into the paperwork process. My baby is now seven, and Teresa is still in some bureaucratic loop, waiting. She hasn't seen her own kids in about 11 years now. She pays her taxes, and sends all her money home to Bolivia.. she owns a number of homes there. Of course, she would love to buy a home here, but can't. She can't even get a legal driver's license. Last batch of forms I had to fill out was to "prove" she isn't a terrorist.

I could go on and on... the ignorance in this nation about immigrants is enormous...

[lies and propaganda]

126. no vote here from Phoenix...

[RC Quake]

127. Yes. Too many to count.

[ChickMagic]

129. I have a friend who is Mexican-American

I tell her all the time she's the worst Mexican ever. She doesn't like cilantro, salsa, jalapenos or tequila. I've always called her Tyrannosaurus Mex. The weird thing is, when I was talking about maybe buying a house, I can't mow the lawn and my husband's allergic to grass. T. Mex says, "Just go to Home Depot and find a Jose." I find that kind of weird coming from an American born child of Mexico. And she can't STAND illegals.

[jaysunb]

164. I know quite a few like that

it's no puzzle though, we blacks have our own, Clarence ,Condi, Colin,Armstrong and so may more. Sad, funny and true.

[ChickMagic]

242. I guess it's ubiquitous

I had never encountered that sort of same race racism.

[maveric]

132. Quite a few. I'm in San Diego.

I dont really see this issues a "crisis". Down here illegal immigrants work the fields of East and North County, wash dishes and bus tables in local restaurants or take below average wages on non-union construction labor jobs. I've never heard anyone in San Diego actually say that some "Illegal" took his job. NEVER!
Most of these types you speak of are usually hard-working,law-abiding and scared. They don't want to go to jail or get deported so they keep a low profile and do their jobs. You don't see roving criminal gangs harassing American citizens. I've never see that in my 27 years down here.
I'm sure that there are a few from the criminal element but for the most part they accept the JOBS OFFERED TO THEM for shitty wages to take care of their families on the other side of the border.

I know that this is an unpopular attitude here on DU but they DO take the jobs that average Americans would never consider taking IMHO.
And they are lured here by American businesspeople who exploit them with low wages and quite often, horrendous working conditions.

[Zookeeper]

205. Take a trip outside of California or the Southwest....

Unlike your area, which has been relying on cheap, illegal labor for decades, the rest of country has filled those jobs "that average Americans would never consider taking" with average (whatever that means) American workers, at least until recently.

So, the sudden influx of lower-wage illegal workers is quite noticeable and not taken for granted (and to some people feels like a "crisis," right or wrong).

And up here in super-work ethic MN, we tend to clean our own toilets and mow our own lawns instead of expecting other people to do it for us. :P

[treestar]

135. I have met them outside So. Cal. and while living in So Cal.

met them and saw groups of them standing on street corners waiting to be picked up for day labor.

I never felt their presence was impacting me in any way whatsoever.

This country deliberately does not enforce these laws in order to have a docile labor force - one afraid of deportation and thus reluctant to claim any right to decent treatment. But all things being relative, it must be an overall gain for them. I have no resentment of that.

Then every once in a while, we step up enforcment (supposedly, usually by putting responsibility for it on those other than the government, i.e. employers) and grant a mass amnesty. Everyone knows this is the way we operate, which is why I have little patience for those who whine "but they're illegal!"

[Duppers]

142. yes, last night

Williamsburg, VA here. My Spanish speaking son asked her where she's from and if she had a work visa and she said she didn't want to answer.

We were just curious and doing our own little survey.

[ellisonz]

222. The first permanent English settlement in America.

[BlackVelvet04]

225. No, that would be Jamestown. n/t

[ellisonz]

234. My logic.

James Cittie burned to the ground in January of 1608, the fort walls remained. In June 1610 the colonists abandoned the settlement before being ordered back at the head of the James River by a relief expedition. Williamsburg or the Middle Plantation was really the first substantial settlement as James Fort was nothing more than a palisade and a few small buildings. Before the Middle Plantation could be fully settled a palisade wall had to be completed across the peninsula in 1634. So yes, Jamestown was the first settlement, but it's a real stretch to term it a permanent settlement since that was not really the intention of the settlers or the following expeditions. Even after tobacco took off most of the population was in the nearby countryside and not adjacent to the rebuilt fort. I would also point out a bit of history that most people probably don't know. The English were not the first Europeans in the region, wiki Ajacan Mission, furthermore, Plymouth, built on top of an abandoned native village, was not the first settlement to hold Thanksgiving, that title goes to Berkeley Hundred, the first sizable plantation in the Virginia Colony.

[JVS]

143. Yes

[baldguy]

144. The only undocumented immigrants I've met were from Ireland, England & Poland.

I've heard that people from Mexico and other Central & South American countries only account for 20% of "illegal" immigrants.

[JohnLocke]

195. It's way more than that.

57 percent Mexican
24 percent Central American/South American countries
9 percent Asian
6 percent European/Canadian
4 percent from the rest of the world.

(Pew Research, 2005)
http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/44.pdf

So about 81 percent are from Mexico, Central America, and South America.

[Jed Dilligan]

145. Many

Lived with them, worked with them, partied with them, went to their baptisms and weddings and funerals, but I live in California so I guess I'm excluded from this discussion?

:wtf:

Kinda the same way the electoral college excludes me from national political discourse...

[mitchum]

148. Yes

[trashcanistanista]

154. Yes,

I'm in California so it is a fact of life. I am all for an open immigration policy and legalizing anyone that gets let in or wants to get in asap. No human being should have to be branded with an "illegal" status. I would like to see an "exchange" type program whereby any American can go to any country and get the same benefit for each immigrant we let in, meaning go to school, buy property, find employment, start a business, get healthcare, etc. I would like it to work two ways. I am vehemently against a slave economy which we have now. If all illegals were legal, we could obliterate the slave economy, reinvigorate the unions, and force labor laws and employee rights down the throats of corporate America. We would have a majority democratic population and a lot more political participation. Any way you look at it the numbers are on the side of the democrats and a solid majority takes all. Twelve million undocumented potential democratic citizens is certainly worth considering. Immmigration being used as a "wedge" issue will only result in more of the same. I know many illegals and citizens in progress as well as new citizens. The new citizens I know love being American and embrace their new country and want to participate in politics. They are more politically aware than the average freeper citizen. I say we take them all and reap the benefits of a better country in the long run. I also say no to insourcing or outsourcing, I want citizens not temp workers who have no stake in this country. Just my opinion, but flame me if you must.:party:

[Kat45]

151. Yes. I know one.

She's from Guatamala, and she worked as a nanny for a couple I know. She was like part of their family. The kids are older now, so I don't know if she still works for them. I like her; she's very nice. The reason I know is that someone who would know told me.

About 5-6 years ago, I was doing some temporary work. One of the women I worked with was Mexican and she mentioned that she knew a lot of illegals.

BTW, I live in the Boston area.

[Dervill Crow]

152. Yes.

I know three Hispanic people, and two of them are illegal. I don't think this is a critical problem; there are far more critical things that I am worried about, e.g., healthcare, the war, outsourcing.

The only problem I have with Mexicans is that they seem to take the whole family when they shop at Winco, thereby making the store dreadfully crowded. Hardly a burning crisis.

[jaysunb]

166. Guess you haven't met any Asian families

they do everything together...at the same time. :evilgrin:

[Dervill Crow]

171. Oh yes. Around here are even more Asian families than Hispanic.

Actually I had included them in my Winco kvetch. :rofl:

[jaysunb]

173. heh heh !

I always say, " imagine if that many black folks showed up at the grocery store together...."
:rofl:

[trashcanistanista]

167. Nothing, but NOTHING, moved me more

when last November on election day I witnessed large extended families of new immigrants come in, the elderly barely able to walk, probably unable to read the ballot and the younger family members helping them to vote, then voting themselves. They also brought their kids to see the process. I don't know the specific nationalities but many cultures have extended family relationships and I saw this many times throughout the day. Nearly brought me to tears.

[tammywammy]

156. I've known 2 for sure

[Zookeeper]

157. Yes, one of whom became involved with the teen daughter....

of a neighbor and immediately had a baby. He works a couple of jobs, is a good ten years older than the mother of his child, sends much of his money back to Mexico, has brought most of his male relatives to live and work here illegally.

Through the help of my neighbor, who is concerned about her grandchild, he is now getting some kind of documentation to allow him to stay in the U.S.

Funny thing, my big-business supporting, anti-Union, self-righteously law abiding and authority-respecting Republican neighbor, who doesn't particularly like the legal Hmong or Somali immigrants, now wants to see the southern border of the U.S. erased because she's afraid her grandchild's father will be deported.

My apologies to anyone who doesn't like this story, but it's not mine.

[EFerrari]

178. Families happen.

:shrug:

[Zookeeper]

185. Well, what irks me is the hypocrisy of my Rethug neighbor....

But, it's the typical Rethug position of not caring about something until it affects them personally and they have something at risk.

Long story short: Despite well knowing of my young daughter's struggle with Type 1 diabetes, she couldn't bring herself to support the pro-stem cell research candidate, Kerry, because of some story she heard about a Dr. who "saved" and raised a baby he was supposed to be aborting, therefore she wanted to vote for Bush because he was against "partial-birth" abortions. OK. I found it a bit hurtful that she would vote against a possible cure for my child (who is the best friend of her child), based on some story she heard. But, I accepted it, because she has the right to make her own choices for whatever reason.

However, when she heard my concerns about the effects of illegal labor, she became rather unhinged and took it very personally, to the point of verbally attacking my daughter a couple of days later.

Silly me, to expect the same kind of tolerance and objectivity from her Republican-self, that I had extended to her.

[EFerrari]

187. I'm so sorry. I hope you are much better equipped than I am

to deal with anti social behavior because that's what that is. :(

[Zookeeper]

191. Thanks, Pat....

I probably wouldn't have much contact with her, but for the friendship between our daughters. (She does have her reasonable moments.)

[jaysunb]

180. kinda reminds me of GHWB's remark about

" my little brown ones, " when referring to Jeb's kids. LOL !
Like SFEXPAT said, " families happen."

[ecstatic]

159. If you answer "Yes," then you're a racist

Because there is absolutely no way of knowing through common sense/deduction whether a person is illegal or a legal resident of this country. :sarcasm: :rofl: :eyes:

I know of some illegal aliens from Africa and Guyana. I see a lot of *what appears to be* undocumented workers standing on the street corner of certain parts of Atlanta, waiting to be picked up for day jobs (so dangerous :-().

[trashcanistanista]

161. Not so fast

Many of us work with illegals, go to school with them, have them as neighbors and they our friends or work for us. They tell us their stories as we get let in to their culture and let them into ours. If you take a genuine interest in another person you will eventually hear their life story, illegal or not.

[Dervill Crow]

172. WHAT?!

The key word is "know," and yes, I do. I am not inferring or presuming or assuming; these are people that I KNOW. Personally.

[Nikia]

163. As far as I know, they were all legal

In a way, I have difficulty believing that. I wasn't going to call anyone liars or cheats though. I know that it was hard for them to leave their communities whether or their green card was valid.

[haele]

165. Yes, a lady from Scotland. Married to an American, divorced, didn't have a visa when I knew her.

She came over "legally" and overstayed after she got divorced. Of course, she's since taken care of the visa/green card/citizenship issue thanks to amnesty - and suprise, suprise - it ain't too hard for a cute red-head to jump through the hoops to finally get legal. They didn't say anthing about deporting her 15 years ago.
She's the only one I know of for sure, I have met and worked with a few people who might be questionable, but since we're so near the border, who's to say if they were American citizens living in TJ or Mexican citizens staying with legal relatives in San Diego? Especially when it comes to the actual status of many of the kids that go to school with the kidlet...

Haele

[ellisonz]

168. Disqualified by SoCal residency.

10 years in the Pasadena Unified School District has pretty much made me colorblind i.e. I only see whiteness. Sometimes I feel like Stephen Colbert...

;-)

[jaysunb]

174. You've done well my boy.

You're one of the many reasons I have faith in future generations...

[ddeclue]

169. I believe so though I am not 100% sure..

There are plenty of Hispanics, both domestic (Puerto Rico) and immigrants (both legal and illegal) here in Florida but hey - Florida was originally a Spanish colony right? When I lived in Phoenix AZ, there were plenty of Hispanics there too but why get excited? I grew up in a military family and have lived all over the world and don't freak out just because everyone around me isn't a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

I have always rolled with the flow and I have learned quite a lot of Spanish over the years and just accept life as it comes. I'm not worried about my job, I don't really see a lot of legitimate competitors for it anywhere. Illegal immigration IS NOT the most burning crisis that we have, Lou Dobbs is wrong - the WAR is. It is bankrupting our country and destroying our military.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[jaysunb]

175. You're cool .....

:thumbsup:

[annabanana]

177. lol. . I lived with a crazed Antrim man who jumped the QE II and

swam ashore...I suspect his papers weren't all they could be...

(and oh yes, my life was severely "impacted" for nearly 5 woozy boozy years)

[EFerrari]

179. That sounds like fun.

lol

[Clark2008]

181. I was married to one - does that count?

[jaysunb]

182. I guess that would qualify....

:rofl:

[AnnieBW]

184. All the time

There's immigrants from all over the place in my area - legal and illegal. My neighbors are from Africa. My hairdresser is Thai (but she married an American serviceman). The people around the corner are Vietnamese. We used to go to a Mexican restaurant that served the Mexican community. Unfortunately, it closed. :( Heck, the two Mexicans that the company that built our deck did a better job than the White American supervisor's sons, who my husband caught slacking off on numerous occasions. At least they're working their butts off, unlike a lot of Americans who seem to think that the world owes them a favor. :nopity:

My Dad is getting on his high horse about illegal immigration. He's forwarding these stupid e-mails without checking Snopes first. I told him that I'm not threatened by Mexicans coming here. I'm threatened by corporations that are outsourcing their tech labor to India and China because their people work for less than Americans will. As techies, it directly impacts me and my husband.

[fishwax]

188. yes, i've known undocumented immigrants in oklahoma and illinois

[Solly Mack]

190. Met. Been neighbors with. Laughed with. Flirted with. Danced with.

Worked with. Talked with. Went to school with. Shopped with. Shared roads and highways with...


Both legal and illegal
From...
Mexico. Various South and Central American countries. India. Pakistan. Various countries of Africa. Ireland. Vietnam.

and that was just living in Georgia

[Up2Late]

192. Of course! Most "illegal Immigrants" are not so-called "illegal border crossers"...

...I would be willing to bet that most are people who "over-stayed their Visa" because our stupid "government" cut almost all the funding to INS, so they don't have enough staff to process the Visa renewals in a reasonable time period (like 6 to 8 weeks), so now they have a 8 to 12 year back log.

This whole "illegal immigrant" BS is just another of the major FUBARs the Republican Congress has created during the last 12 years.

[phylny]

203. Sure, I know several illegal immigrants. I've provided Early Intervention services

for some of their kids. I live in New York, in the Hudson Valley.

I didn't know at first they were illegal - they didn't come right out and tell me. But after a while, when they got to know me, they told me.

One woman was from Argentina. She met her husband (now ex-husband), who is in the country legally from Mexico when she was visiting. They fell in love, had a son, and she stayed. When I was still working with the family, she was working at Dunkin' Donuts, having somehow secured/made up a Social Security number(and the Dunkin' Donuts management KNEW this, she told me), was driving without a license or insurance, and was hoping that she wouldn't be forced out of the country, leaving her son behind.

The other family rented part of a house - two families lived in three rooms. The wife was here legally from Mexico, husband was not (also from Mexico). I saw her a few weeks ago (I stopped seeing her son a few years ago) and when I asked how her family was, she said her husband was deported, so they're living apart now. She was very matter-of-fact about it.

In this area, there are many, many immigrants - whether here illegally or not, who knows? There is also a migrant population for the agriculture, but it's my sense that many families aren't so migrant (that is, they find work out of season and stay) because I provide services for a Head Start program for migrant children (Agri Business Child Development) and most kids are there year-round.

As to how it affects my life? No one is threatening my job or my wages, because in my line of work you need a Masters degree and certification. Crackdowns on immigration have affected the local, family-owned agribusiness in that they don't have enough employees to pick fruit in the fall. This was documented in our local paper. In addition, many contractors hire day workers, paying them cash, and circumventing many rules regarding safety.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what to do or how to solve this, but my concern is that people working illegally may not always be paying taxes like the rest of us, get no benefits, and allow companies to profit because their wages may be low. I don't believe that illegal immigrants are doing jobs that no Americans WANT to do - I believe that they work for wages that most Americans find way too low for the amount of labor provided. In addition, in some local school districts, there may be a strain on services, but not in mine because it's a small district.

Having said all that, I don't see people around here getting too hot under the collar about immigration issues, and I certainly don't think it's our most pressing problem.

[JCMach1]

204. Matter of perception... it's largely a rural issue as that's

where many immigrants have clustered (that's where the jobs are). There are a few exceptions, of course, like LA and S. Cal. and parts of TX and FL.

This is why it is a hot button issue for Southern Repugs...

[Hekate]

206. My sister's sister-in-law (Massachussetts) somehow neglected to get her papers,& may be deported now

Since I live on the "other coast" I don't remember all the details, but this nice South American woman has lived and worked in the US for a long time, her son was born here, and she married and stabilized my sis's husband's youngest brother, so everyone in that family really likes her.

And now comes 9-11, and crazy Homeland Security, and suddenly she's a menace to the United States. Yes, they've gotten an immigration lawyer, and are trying to work this all out. But she could still end up back in South America.

Hekate

[Cozmosis]

207. Quite a few

And I live in Maryland. They're huge on college campus staffs.

[Greyhound]

210. Lived and worked al over the country and have never been anywhere

in the last 15 years that I didn't run into illegal immigrants. We also have to remember we're not talking about Hispanics only, there are many from all over the world. More Asians in the west and more Eastern Europeans in the east, but all kinds everywhere, one of the slightly surprising discovery's I've made are the large numbers working in IT.

[krispos42]

213. No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night

:-)

[lumberjack_jeff]

220. Yes. I live in the extreme northwest.

Contractors who hire exclusively illegal workers have taken over entire industries here.

[jaysunb]

224. I think every industry has been impacted

it doesn't take long for business to lean to their competitions practices.

[bamacrat]

223. Im sure I have, but didnt know it.

They dont wear a star like the Jews in Nazi Germany were required to. Which probably isnt far off. I am for legal immigration but it is impossible to think we can get all 12-14 million to identify themselves.

[Matsubara]

226. I grew up on the border, so yes, scads of them.

And to most of us who grew up on the border, the hysteria about "the Mexicans" is a bit laughable.

But at the same time, most of us un the border, including naturalized Mexicans and Mexican-Americans support strong border enforcement and deportation of illegals combined with strong sanctions against EMPLOYERS who violate the law.

Most of us realize that the illegals are the victims. It's the employers creating the demand for slave labor who are the criminals.


But yeah, I've known a lot of illegal immigrants, and on an individual basis, I never would have had the heart to call INS on them or anything like that. Every one I've known has been a fine, diligent person.

[NeedleCast]

230. Lots

I meet dozens a week and see several thousand a year.

I wouldn't go so far to say it's a crisis, but I think it's an important issue everywhere. Like I've said before though, I don't believe we have an illegal immigration problem, I believe we have an illegal hiring problem. Companies that hire illegal/undocumented workers are not being punished, so the problem doesn't go away. The solution, I think, is pretty simple. Enforce illegal hiring punishments against those who break the law, OR punish companies for paying illegal wages to immigrants. I know a handful of people in the DC area who feel that their wages have been driven down by illegal hiring. I travel across the US and this seems to be a pretty common theme.

[jberryhill]

232. Yes

But he was a Canadian living in the US Virgin Islands.

[bullwinkle428]

233. I've met plenty of Mexican-born immigrants here in Iowa - we have a significant

Hispanic population, but haven't a clue with regards to their actual status.

[Saphire]

235. yes, from both Latin America and Europe.

[Stardust]

236. You're kidding me, right?

:rofl:

[Rowdyboy]

237. Hundreds work at small poultry plants in rural Mississippi...We even have two tiendas

in our small town now!

We hired a young undocumented guy who built a flawless deck for us. The Hispanic community is a very real part of our small community now. They're good neighbors.

[july302001]

238. Yes - I've probably met 20 or more

Met a lot of them. Their presence is *seriously* depressing wages in North Carolina's construction industry and in some other lines of work.

I am able to converse somewhat in Spanish, which is why I have met multiple illegal immigrants over the past 3 years or so.

[rucky]

240. I usually don't check people's papers when I meet them.

I know several foreign-born people. I also know it's bad form to probe them on their immigration status.

[kath]

244. My grandfather was one, but he died before I was born.

Irish (but family had lived in England for a few generations), was working on a ship, in Canada (or going to Canada, I don't know the full details). Jumped ship in order to come to the US. This was in the 1920s. Became a naturalized citizen in the 40s. I think became "legal" under the amnesty program in the 30s or early 40s, but I'm not sure.

He was blacklisted for his union organizing activities in the steel mills in the Pittsburgh area.