What I Don't Understand Re: TB Guy

[lligrd]

Why were they trying to keep him from coming back to the country? I understand not wanting him to fly commercially but why would they want him to be kept in Canada or Europe? And why would any other country even allow him to remain there? Why didn't they arrange a flight back for him? I find it quite strange that you could take a trip and then be notified by the CDC that you can't come back.

I guess I have the same question regarding our need for passports to get back in to the US. If you can prove you are a citizen but you don't have a passport how can they keep you out and why do they want to?

[pitohui]

1. they WERE arranging a flight back for him

read the news reports again

TB guy is a sociopath and a liar, the CDC was arranging a private jet from italy so that he would harm no one, that wasn't good enough for him

[lligrd]

4. Thanks, I Hadn't read That

From what I read that they wanted him to check in to a facility in Italy. It seemed as though they were going to leave him there. I will check it out further.

[pitohui]

6. they were NOT going to leave him there, that was his spin

this guy is an evil sociopath, no 2 ways about it

[Madspirit]

11. Exaggeration Much

Not clinically a sociopath. He was in the wrong, big time and maybe even should be prosecuted for something...endangering others but the word "sociopath" doesn't really apply. Just maybe, "selfish and childish"? People go into a weird psychological state when they find out they have a giant bad disease and part of that state is denial.
Lee

[Edweird]

21. What would you call someone that knows they are HIV+ and was promiscuous and never told anybody ?

This guy is WORSE because he can kill you just by breathing in your general area. I think that qualifies as a sociopath.

[High Plains]

31. Uh, has anybody actually gotten sick?

[Edweird]

34. The carrier is sick.

[progdonkey]

39. that's completely irrelevant...

The only thing relevant to describing this guy's personality is that he was well aware that there was even the slightest possibility that someone would get sick.

He showed reckless disregard for the public and especially the people on the plane coming back from Europe, because at that time he knew that he not only had TB, but a very fatal and nearly untreatable strain of it.

The HIV analogy lines up perfectly: this guy was willfully exposing other people to what he knew was a nearly untreatable and highly fatal viral disease. I hope no one else got sick, but the only thing that matters is that others could get sick, and he was well aware of it and didn't care.

[hedgehog]

49. Bacterial, not viral. Otherwise I tend to agree with you.

[progdonkey]

55. ah, thanks for the correction...

:dunce:

[Madspirit]

33. I was using REAL psychological definitions

There are lots of people who kill who are not technically sociopaths. That has specific and definite requirements. Serious illness and in the case of your example, AIDS, so terminal illness, puts someone in a mindset of denial and AIDS also comes with a dementia, after a point. I don't support these people doing this. I am one of the few liberals who even support quarantine if someone won't control themselves. I am speaking as someone who's field is psychology and I am speaking literally. It is not sociopathy. It may be sociopathic behavior but the person is not TECHNICALLY a sociopath.
Lee

[Edweird]

35. fair enough

[Madspirit]

36. I don't like him any more than you do

...but I think he's probably just scared. People do the worse things...when afraid. It's odd.
Lee

[acmavm]

2. I had read that they didn't want him flying around other passengers

and that they would have sent a CDC aircraft for him. I saw that here in some thread yesterday.

They didn't want him to stay anywhere. They just wanted to isolate him from other people.

[whistle]

3. Welcome to the New Amerika

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. What I don't understand...

is why this guy can fly around all he wants, but they won't let Cat Stevens back into the country.

[JackintheGreen]

18. Didn't he renounce his citizenship or some such?

If I am remembering correctly (and I rarely am) the Feds see this kind of thing as dangerous. It's kind of petty, but understandable: "so, you don't want to be an "American:" anymore? Fine! You can't come to the Grand Canyon! Nyah..."

[blondeatlast]

20. I'd love to see the source of that. He's a successful Atlanta lawyer in his daddy's firm,

for pity's sake.

Please find the source of that, I'm finding that very difficult to believe.

[MonkeyFunk]

23. I think Jack

was referring Cat Stevens, not TB-guy

[blondeatlast]

28. Ah, okay. I couldn't quite believe that Speaker would want to renounce.

Thanks.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. Yusef Islam, AKA Cat Sevens, is British.

[blondeatlast]

51. Sorry, BAH. I didn't follow the thread closely enough. nt

[supernova]

7. His actions were incredibly selfish

and maximally ignorant of TB, even the normal garden variety. It beggars belief that he didn't take the flight the CDC offered him and seemed not to comprehend the anxiety of others around him.

It was the proper thing for him to do to apologize to other people whom he might have exposed.

edit: Did info from the FIL make him careless with a false sense of security?

[lligrd]

8. I Have Been Listening To CNN All Morning

and they haven't mentioned the CDC offering him a flight. Same with the news stories I have read. That is an important element of the story I would think.

[progdonkey]

14. yeah, I haven't heard that either...

It also doesn't make much sense: Italy's a perfectly fine, developed nation with modern health care, so he'd be in fine hands being treated in Italy (and everyone interacting with him would likely speak English, because they'd all be well-educated doctors).

I don't see why the CDC would spend taxpayer money to send a plane to pick up a guy from Europe just because he's a prick who thinks he's too good to be treated in Europe.

I mean, it's Italy, not Angola.

[supernova]

15. I agree with you there

Italy, along with most western European countries has outstanding healthcare (pity we don't) Why he didn't check in w/ a doc over there is another good question. I'm sure FIL could have recommended someone.

To be a lawyer and all, he sounds really irresponsible and immature. I'm not sure I'd want him representing me.

Also, we haven't heard from Wifey. Was she the one insisting on the European Vacation?

[kestrel91316]

22. That was discussed by Gerberding in the first press conf, but the MSM

seems not to be going over transcripts to glean info, like I DID RATHER EASILY.

[Shakespeare]

42. In his interview on ABC today, he said they refused to get him a flight.

Something stinks about this, and I find it HIGHLY suspicious the way the CDC immediately began setting Speaker up as some sort of evil, careless jerk.

He said he has a tape recording of their meeting with the CDC before he left the country (which will supposedly support his version of the story), so we'll see.

[progdonkey]

10. he wasn't ignorant of TB, which is why he's such an asshole...

He'd been getting treatment for TB since January, and none of the treatments had yet worked, so he knew he not only had TB, but a multiple drug resistant strain. He was told not to fly, and told that, if he was going to ignore the county's request for him to stay in the country, he should at least wear a facemask on the flight, which he didn't do either.

It's all quite simple: this guy's Greek wedding and European honeymoon was his only concern, and nothing was going to keep him from it, even the prospect of infecting everyone he met with what he already knew was an especially virulent strain of TB.

He owes the people on the flights more than an apology. I can see everyone on those flights having at the very least a strong infliction of emotional distress class action lawsuit against him, and anyone who gets sick should have all their medical treatments paid for by him, and if anyone he came into contact with dies of that strain of TB, he should be convicted of manslaughter at the very least.

[supernova]

16. FIL

I agree that the kid is an asshole.

But I also wonder abut researcher FIL. He seemed very nonchalant about it last night on KO (I think I was watching KO). Move along... nothing to see here.

[LisaM]

17. KID? He's 31 years old

and behaving in a manner I wouldn't have when I was 10.

I agree with whomever said he was a sociopath. He doesn't have normal human emotions if he is willing to risk the health of hundreds, if not thousands, of others.

[supernova]

26. To me, he's a kid

LOL!

[kestrel91316]

25. Agreed. He's an arrogant, irresponsible jerk, and if he panicked

that's still no excuse. Self-centered, rich, overprivileged asshole IMHO.

What, he doesn't have a computer and can't figure out Google or Wikipedia or go to the excellent CDC website for info on his diagnosis??? Is his index finger paralyzed??? Good info in PLAIN ENGLISH, for laypersons, is readily available.

If anybody gets sick or, god forbid, dies due to exposure to him, I hope they bankrupt him. Criminal charges might be in order if someone dies, and maybe he will get disbarred.

And he's sobbing on the radio giving his apology. It's a little late to grow a conscience, dude. Cry me a river.

[Lars39]

13. I wonder if he thought that his FIL and his lawyer father would be able to use

their influence to smooth things over.

[yy4me]

24. To make it even more interesting and bizarre, the man is a

Personal Injury lawyer! Think of the irony there.

[kestrel91316]

27. Oh, PROBABLY.

[ellenfl]

9. why would he be afraid they would not

let him back into the country? he apparently thought that because he had to sneak back in. if the cdc was sending a plane for him to bring him home, which is apparently where he wanted to go, why would he sneak away? something does not add up here.

ellen fl

[lligrd]

12. Agreed!

He went to a lot of trouble to get back and it just doesn't make sense "IF" the CDC was going to fly him back.

[pitohui]

30. there is no "IF" my friend, now if you are going to call the CDC liars...

yeah he went to a lot of trouble to flee the authorities and eventually once in the usa he got caught up with and put on a CDC jet to denver anyway

so...somebody is lying

the CDC who says they were arranging for a private flight or this proven creep who knows he has TB and can infect/maybe kill w. a cough but marries anyway? travels to the destination wedding/honeymoon anyway?

this guy doesn't care about anyone but himself, if he loved that woman, the wedding/honeymoon would have cancelled to protect HER even if he is incapable of caring about anyone else

would you marry someone if you had a disease that could kill her just by coughing on her, um, don't think so, but you have a soul, i mean, a marriage at 31 could last some time and it isn't real to think you can go forever and never cough again, is it?

and then he learns he has the WORST form of the disease, with LEAST likelihood of any cure, he runs around evading authorities crossing several more national borders, what decent person does that?

as kestrel says, there may have also been a panic reaction, but we're sort of judged on how we behave in a crisis, this man's actions were to take the maximum path that could potentially infect the maximum number of people, sociopath may not be the proper medical label for what he is but it's close enough for me

[Madspirit]

37. Don't patronize the woman

She knows he has it now and is CHOOSING to stay in quarantine with him. ...and I sure hope people aren't judged by how they react in a crisis...since none of us really knows until we are faced with one.

He freaked. No one has shown up with the disease.
Lee

[progdonkey]

44. she should be treated as an accomplice...

He'd been receiving treatment for his TB since January, and that time is when they tested his wife for TB, which turned up negative. She was there when he went through the first and second lines of treatment, which proved ineffective.

So when they went together on their European wedding trip and honeymoon, she was fully aware that he had a drug resistant form of TB, but, like with him, her wedding and honeymoon were more important than the health of the public.

[lligrd]

45. I Didn't Call Anybody A Liar

Perhaps it was a misunderstanding. I have no way of knowing and I don't like jumping to conclusions. Something went wrong here and I am just wondering what it is. Maybe the guy is a selfish jerk or maybe the CDC wasn't clear. Me not trust a government agency?? Surely you jest!

[kestrel91316]

29. When CDC contacted him in Rome, they apparently informed him he was

on the no-fly list to prevent him using a commercial plane, and would be held for secure transport by CDC back to the US.

So he bolts like a rabbit and sneaks back in. What an idiot.

[kestrel91316]

19. Gerberding explained in the first news conference that they told him to

stay put for the time being while they worked on the complicated business of arranging medically safe transport of him back to the US, compliments of CDC.

I happen to think he panicked when they told him how serious his condition was (this was when they told him he had XDR TB rather than MDR TB), and he didn't hear what they said, or didn't understand. He was like a panicked rabbit at that point.

[High Plains]

32. Gee, maybe before we crucify this guy we should see if...

...anyone actually get sick. Ya think?

But that would take the fun out of our outraged hate fest.

[depakid]

38. You can't unring the bell

It's the risk of spreading a deadly contagion that we all need to be concerned with. If it were not this pathogen, it could just as easily be some other emerging disease- one that might be far more contagious..

Presumably, this guy was reasonably well educated- and had been warned. Had he been responsible, he could easily have sat down and found this (took me all of 3 minutes):

Tuberculosis and Air Travel: guidelines for prevention and control, SECOND EDITION

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/2006/WHO_HTM_TB_2006.363_eng.pdf

He chose not to- nor apparently, did his wife. That no one has fallen ill at this point is irrelevant.

[geardaddy]

41. But that was written by the WHO

Who believes a UN research body anyway?

:sarcasm:

[Shakespeare]

43. And also see how the CDC's story plays out when scrutinized.

They were in an awfully big hurry to paint him as a criminal. A very, very big hurry.

No, it couldn't be possible that the CDC mishandled the entire case through bureaucratic laziness and is trying desperately to cover its behind, could it?

[lligrd]

46. Amazing How Fast We Are To Pick Sides

without knowing what actually happened. I wonder why we feel such a need to blame as opposed to understand. I would think we would be better able to fix what went wrong if we found out exactly why it hgappened instead of finger pointing. Maybe it is as simple as the CDC explaining better and not being threatening.

[WritersBlock]

47. The tape recordings bother me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/americas/6712281.stm


"Mr Speaker added that he had tape recordings to prove his claim that he was only advised against travelling, but not barred by officials."

Just strikes me odd that anyone would tape a meeting with a health professional, but maybe I'm just naive.

[lligrd]

50. I Wondered About The Taping Too

one of many odd aspects to this story.

[blondeatlast]

52. OTOH, Speaker is a personal-injury lawyer. He probably tapes most of his

meetings if he's allowed to do so.

[Shakespeare]

54. In the interview this morning, he said it was his dad's idea.

(his dad's also an attorney)

I don't know how many people in this thread saw the interview, but he struck me as being a decent person who's horrified at how the situation has blown up. My initial theory is that the CDC screwed up by not handling his case effectively (nothing intentionally malicious, just sloppy bureaucracy), and is trying to shift the blame to him as a CYA move, when they were never clear to him at the outset about what he could/could not do.

I also find it highly questionable that it's a "coincidence" that his father-in-law works for the CDC and has spent the last decade-plus studying the very strain of TB he's contracted. Fans of Occam's Razor should rightly be dubious.

[treestar]

48. The law does not allow them to prevent any US citizen from entering this country

Aliens with such diseases can be turned away, but not citizens.

It would take a lot of nerve to tell some other country they had to keep him. The other country has just as much right to exclude or deport aliens on the same grounds as the U.S. would and does.

They cannot keep you out even if you don't have the passport - they have to let you back in, and then fine you under a law there is saying you can't leave the U.S. without your U.S. passport. So they can prosecute you for that. But not letting you in is not an option.

[kimmylavin]

53. Hmm.

I don't think they weren't letting him in, though.
They asked him to stay abroad while they worked out transportation.
And then when he flew anyway, they put his name on a watch list at the border, which told agents to hold him and take necessary preventative precautions.
Seems they were doing what they could to get him back IN, not keep him out.