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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 02:16 PM
Original message
Who gets to decide who's liberal and who's not?
This is what bugs me. The internet is filled with blog posts and message board discussion about who's liberal and who isn't.

We're told Pres. Obama needs to pick a liberal for the vacant Supreme Court post. Anything less just won't cut it. But liberal by whose definition? Theirs?

What makes their definition any better than mine or yours or Pres. Obama's?

In fact, it isn't like liberalism is black and white. It's not universal. You can be liberal in some degree and conservative in another. Does that make you any less liberal overall? Probably not.

So what is liberalism and why do these people get to decide who is and who isn't liberal?

Well for starters, in their view, Pres. Obama is not a liberal. Not in the classical sense and certainly not in the modern sense. His policies contradict everything they believe in liberalism - or so that's what they'd have you think.

But classic liberals weren't liberal across the board. Surely we can agree with that and yet they are often used as the definition of pure liberalism in discussion to thwart Pres. Obama's liberal cred.

Well to get an understanding of what liberalism means and where it stands historically, we need to define it and not just broadly - which is easily done here.

Liberalism, specifically American liberalism, has its roots in what America is - a Republic. The Founding Fathers were liberals in the sense they advocated liberty. Yet even there we find contradiction because the U.S. Constitution was not an advocate of liberty for a good portion of individuals. That came later.

Was Thomas Jefferson any less a liberal because he owned slaves, even though he was one of the most outspoken in his promotion of Republicanism in the U.S.? Probably not.

Of course, liberalism at the founding of our country and where it is today has changed greatly. Modern liberalism really found its footing in American history during the Progressive Era, a movement spearheaded by a Republican, Teddy Roosevelt.

Roosevelt was a liberal by definition. His New Nationalism established the belief of social welfare and the need of a powerful federal government to regulate the economy and guarantee social justice. But was Roosevelt any less a liberal because of his imperialist world views? If he had been president today, the progressive movement, which is often built around the anti-war movement, would have denounced him as a warmongering imperialist.

In some instances, they already do and some won't even dare claim him as a progressive.

Woodrow Wilson is another president who established a great deal of modern liberal policies both domestically and internationally. Domestically, we saw it with his vigorous fight to break up monopolies and use the federal government to encourage competition among smaller companies, therefore not allowing larger companies to overshadow the economy. Internationally, he established the League of Nations, which was the foundation for the United Nations.

Yet Wilson wasn't perfect. He was a known racist and an outspoken critic of women's suffrage (though he changed). Liberal? In policy. In action? Debatable - but you can't deny he played an important role in creating the modern liberal movement in American politics.

Of course, the most known and widely accepted liberal president is FDR. Roosevelt enacted a great deal of core liberal policies with his New Deal and even today is pretty much the end all when it comes to liberal governing in America.

But wait. Even by the standards of many progressives of that time, FDR wasn't a true liberal. Huey Long, a fiery populist from Louisiana, became one of the most vocal critics of the Roosevelt administration in the 1930s. Long had supported Roosevelt originally because he believed he was the only candidate that would bring about redistribution of wealth, a cornerstone of Long's political beliefs.

Soon after FDR was elected, however, Long abandoned the president because he had no intention of redistributing the wealth. Long was famously quoted as saying, "Whenever this administration has gone to the left I have voted with it, and whenever it has gone to the right I have voted against it."

Sound familiar?

Long became that vocal critic of Roosevelt's policies because he believed they weren't liberal enough. Or didn't do enough. He also said that FDR's National Recovery Act was nothing more than a sellout to big business.

It's history repeating itself, folks. Here you have a president dramatically changing the economic philosophy of the country and yet a good number of progressive and populist figures of the day felt he was doing too little or selling off America to big business. FDR. Selling America off to the corporatist. Ridiculous notion, isn't it? So even then, back in the 30s, we had liberals telling us who was and wasn't liberal.

Beyond that, though, Roosevelt was known as a lifelong free-trader. Yes, a free-trader. In today's politics, being an unabashed free-trader makes you A) a DLCer and B) a corporatist.

Was Roosevelt either?

Here's a liberal icon being denounced for being too conservative by the left and supporting something today that no true progressive could ever fully embrace - free trade. Then you had Roosevelt's passive policy toward lynching (he never used the WH's power to push anti-lynching legislation, even though he promised during the campaign that he would) and of course, his most despicable act - the internment of Japanese-Americans in camps throughout the U.S. during WWII.

That might be the worst civil rights offense in modern American history.

Yet today he's still a liberal icon.

Again, who gets to decide this?

What makes one a liberal? As we've seen, there has never been a true and pure liberal as president. Each has their flaws and each has their policy differences with the ideology. They are human, after all and we would expect as much, right?

And that's why you can't define what liberalism is based on just a set of certain circumstances. Just because you might be more left than Pres. Obama does not mean he isn't liberal. It isn't that easy. It isn't just what you think.

So when someone says they want Pres. Obama to pick an outspoken, unabashed liberal...I've got to wonder what they mean by that.

Do they mean a liberal by its original definition? Liberal by our Founding Father's interpretation? Liberal by Teddy Roosevelt, or Woodrow Wilson or FDR standards? Liberal by whose definition?

Because as we've seen throughout history, liberalism evolves. It isn't just one set of principles without progression. It, with the times, changes. Liberalism today is far different from the liberalism we saw in the 1960s. And that liberalism is hardly the same as the liberalism we saw in the 1930s.

In the 19th Century and part of the 20th, liberals embraced free trade. It was, after all, economic liberalism. Conservatives? Not so much. The Republican Party, who had a stranglehold on the American presidency until 1912, had strongly opposed free trade. Pres. William McKinley said this when discussing it:

"Under free trade the trader is the master and the producer the slave. Protection is but the law of nature, the law of self-preservation, of self-development, of securing the highest and best destiny of the race of man. that protection is immoral…. Why, if protection builds up and elevates 63,000,000 of people, the influence of those 63,000,000 of people elevates the rest of the world. We cannot take a step in the pathway of progress without benefitting mankind everywhere. Well, they say, ‘Buy where you can buy the cheapest'…. Of course, that applies to labor as to everything else. Let me give you a maxim that is a thousand times better than that, and it is the protection maxim: ‘Buy where you can pay the easiest.' And that spot of earth is where labor wins its highest rewards."

I guess he's a liberal.

My how times have changed.
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CBR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Great piece.
History changes with perspective. President Obama will be viewed much differently 50 years from now.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Thanks.
I think he'll be viewed differently in a year, in fact. I think he's better off today than he was a few months ago.

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent post. Kicketty
Edited on Sat May-08-10 05:37 PM by cliffordu
Too often there seems to be a test that is reconfigured to express displeasure with a particular stance....

Mostly mine, it seems, but that's fine. I can take the hit....
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. Very true.
It's like some here believe they have a monopoly on the word liberalism.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent summary of liberalism in America
It should be read by all DUers who think they know what a 'liberal' is.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. Very logical.

More importantly is the 'liberal' answer always the right answer?

I would say 75% of the time it is.

Sometimes its not.

Welfare should have always been structured as a guarantee that everyone should have access to a dignified job. Is that liberal or conservative? Actually I don't care what they call it.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. +1

A lot of the so-called "liberal" positions expressed in the wide world of the blogosphere, DU included, are only liberal in the sense that anything that disagrees with a reactionary viewpoint is liberal. Unfortunately, a number of these "liberal" positions are themselves reactionary. Or, they go far off the mainstream political line straight into anarchist ideology.

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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thank You.
Edited on Sat May-08-10 10:25 PM by Number23
We're told Pres. Obama needs to pick a liberal for the vacant Supreme Court post. But liberal by whose definition?

The obsession with the term (but certainly not the actions of) "liberalism" on this site is ridiculous. I too keep reading from some of the most shrill posters here "why can't Obama pick a REAL liberal for the court??!" with nothing even resembling a definition of what that means. As an independent, I could give less than a damn whether the person chosen considers his or herself a 'liberal' as much as I'm concerned with the whether they are intelligent, fair, pragmatic and concerned with the welfare and rights of all Americans, not just those who share their political ideology. I saw enough of that foolishness under Bush.

I just read a poll that said that 27% of Americans want Obama to pick a liberal for the court, compared with over 40% who don't want a liberal. Of course, these numbers mean absolutely nothing to those here and in the blogosphere who will scream at WHOEVER his choice is, particularly if the person chosen is center-left as opposed to a liberal. There are those who still haven't gotten it into their heads that Obama is the president of EVERYBODY and not just those 10% on the left who scream that he's betrayed them every chance they get while still hollering that they are his "base."
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-10 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
7. Another excellent piece by the Drunken one ...

As I've said a million times, don't even get me started on FDR and the mythical image so many modern self-described liberals have of him.

He was clearly a liberal by the terms of his time (and would be even more liberal today I believe), but the ideas some people ascribe to him are asinine. I actually saw someone elsewhere do what I've been wanting to do for awhile: create a fake candidate and a policy platform for him that included the basics of what FDR actually did during his terms of office and throw it out for comment. "Liberals" tore him apart: "obviously DLC," "friend of banksters," "war monger," etc. I've tweaked a few heads at DU from time to time by mentioning something FDR did that could have gotten him impeached. I'm generally ignored.

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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
8. Who gets to decide who's liberal and who's not?
Easy, the person on DU who can get the most people to agree with him/her about who is and is not liberal. Anybody who disagrees with this group are obviously DLC shills out to destroy liberalism because everybody knows DLC shills are really Right wingers pretending to be Democrats so they can destroy liberals from within.
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. Apparently GD gets to decide that.
I've been called a bigot, an anti-Semite, and a homophobe in the last few days by fellow members here.

Anyone who knows me knows that I am NONE of those things.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. But only if they back it up with a Glenn Greenwald article
If they cannot support their definition of liberal with a Glenn Greenwald article, obviously they aren't liberal enough.

Lord High Douchenozzle Greenwald defines all that is good and liberal.
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Check your PMs--I sent you one yesterday about a thread you made.
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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Laugh. Out. Loud. nt
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get the red out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. Depends on where you live
Just openly supporting the President in my state makes one a liberal, tree-hugging communist and a threat to their Guns and God (which I think may be the same thing for some of them).
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