Occupy Phoenix Veteran Protesters with AR-15's protecting the other protesters

[Fire Walk With Me]

Run time: 08:51 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0HNr2Y7B5c   Posted on YouTube: October 27, 2011 By YouTube Member: pleng72 Views on YouTube: 4789   Posted on DU: October 31, 2011 By DU Member: Fire Walk With Me Views on DU: 4427

 
Um, here comes the Second Amendment to protect the First?

Could it be for both "sides" to find common ground? Stranger things have happened.

[bluestateguy]

1. Watch. Now they'll start complaining about guns at protests

nt

[pnwmom]

3. I'll be one of the "they." This is just asking for trouble.

When self appointed enforcers show up to confront the cops, that will be the end of the possibility of peaceful demonstrations.

[lbrtbell]

7. This IS a peaceful demonstration

The guns are the reason why.

You apparently missed what happened to Occupy Phoenix, when cops in riot gear, helicopters, etc., terrorized peaceful protesters.

The second Amendment is there for a reason.

[pnwmom]

18. Guns don't make it more peaceful. It would be all too easy for

some loony tune to get hold of a gun and start a riot there.

[bowens43]

31. it stopped being peacful the minute these idiots showed up with guns

this has nothing to do with the second amendment.

[bowens43]

30. you got that right, this is bonehead stupid. nt

[msongs]

2. better if nobody brings guns, the cops, the gun "mob" , nobody nt

[pnwmom]

4. Agree. n/t

[lbrtbell]

5. This is precisely why gun control is a bad idea

Gun grabbers whine about the gun laws in places like AZ, but look how peaceful things are when guns defend you against bullies--on either side of the law.

If armed vets like these could surround all the Occupiers, you wouldn't have the kind of brutality that's been going on during the past few weeks.

[Hardrada]

6. Something to think about.

[Fire Walk With Me]

10. How painful, when you NEED guns to voice your First Amendment RIGHTS.

#Occupy is bringing so much to light...

"There is something terribly wrong with this country..." -V

[kestrel91316]

11. My thoughts are along these same lines.....

[pnwmom]

19. You don't know that things will stay peaceful. This has barely begun.

All it will take is one psychotic with a gun to blow this thing wide open.

[bowens43]

32. this is precisely way MORE, STRICTER gun control is needed.

these idiots should be in jail

[Marazinia]

8. I am very conflicted

I support fully the right of self defense and the right to keep and bear arms.

I liked what he said about the US training drug cartels in Mexico. There is indeed a cartel made up of former SOA graduates.

Clearly the police are inclined to permit these particular demonstrators to exercise their right to keep and bear arms in an extraordinary display of tolerance for that.

However, I have some questions.

If my long haired hippie self shows up with an assault rifle, will I be afforded the same respect in Arizona?

Second, these guys are a private vigilante border patrol. I associate that with bigotry as a rule because they are not located equally on the Canadian border. So is his talk of working with our neighbors to the south genuine or not?

The conversation about currency isn't relevant in my opinion and I finished the rest of it out just to be thorough.

[lunasun]

9. here is their blog

http://usborderguard.com/Blogs_from_the_border/Blogs_from_the_border.html

[mwrguy]

12. That guy is a nazi

J.T. Ready is a literal nazi.

Swastika armband and all.

[sabrina 1]

14. How do you know he is a Nazi?

[Marazinia]

16. This is him, right? Looks like him.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2008/spring/the-nativists?page=0,17

:(

[kenfrequed]

25. Yup

Looks like some kind of fascist we should definitely ask him to leave.

[Marazinia]

38. Indeed

Maybe on his way out, his escort could have a little talk with him about who our real enemies are, in case he's got more going on in that head of his than propaganda.

I suppose if they insist on staying, some strategically positioned signs like "We're not with these Fascists" could help.

And if the media try to make hay of this, that would be the time to ask why the police are allowing Neo-Nazis to stand around with assault rifles and why border patrol allows Neo-Nazis to roam around on the border with assault rifles. I'd be willing to bet if anyone else shows up with assault rifles, the police aren't going to look too kindly on them, Arizona gun laws or no Arizona gun laws.

[mwrguy]

27. 'cause he looks like one

You know, all his other photo-ops while wearing a swastika arm-band.

Also, he weighs the same as a duck.

[Marazinia]

15. Yeah, I googled him

That explains why police let them stay. Now there will be reports of neo-nazis at Occupy protests just to add to the smear campaign. I figured it was something like that. No way are they going to let me show up with an assault rifle (nor would I want to!).

So I wonder if this will make the mainstream news anytime soon?

[kenfrequed]

24. This is a problem.

We do have to figure some way of distancing from these people that will use our numbers for their own purposes.

[Marazinia]

39. To do that, the movement needs a statement of what its purposes are

In a way that creates problems of its own.

[sabrina 1]

13. Lol, that looks like an interesting occupation.

I am less afraid of those guys than the police. And, maybe people won't agree with me on this, but they are protecting the people, and no one else is. The cops are not working for the people. I would feel a lot better about the people in Oakland and NYC if those guys were there.

Cops there at least weren't dressed like robo cops and seemed pretty laid back.

[BigBearJohn]

17. I am 100% behind JT

[Marazinia]

20. I was pretty all right with him until I found out he was a Neo Nazi

Neo Nazis want to change things just as bad as I do, but for very different reasons. Neo Nazis want to destroy the current power structure, not because it's wrong that the power structure spreads violence, promotes inequality, and serves only the interests of a few, but because they want to take over and spread their own brand of violence and inequality for their own interests. I don't want these guys protecting me from anything, ever, I'm much more likely to need to protect myself from them!

[progressoid]

21. Neo Nazi border patrol with itchy trigger fingers?

No thanks.

“Some of us have our fingers on the triggers; Soap box. Ballot Box. Ammo box. These were given to us by our founding fathers and mothers. We have just about depleted the first two options..." -JT Ready

[mucifer]

22. So much for the tactics of Ghandi and MLK. I think this is very sad. nt

[Ship of Fools]

23. I second that. This doesn't bode well, to me.

[KurtNYC]

26. more people need to understand how non-violence works

and why

the government has an answer for guns; they don't have one for non-violence

if this was about who has more firepower, the government wins big

[Marazinia]

29. I'd like to see nonviolence work

I never have before. Not in my lifetime. The Iraq war protests changed nothing. Elections change nothing. But I've seen violence bring plenty of changes. Government violence, military violence, against whoever they wanted to steal from.

Know what I hate the most about finding out this guy is a neo-nazi? I hate that they got to him first and filled him up with lies and turned him loose on people who never did any harm to anyone. We need people like him who are really on our side and really ready to fight. I'm hoping they made a mistake with that one, he might just be smart enough to figure it out one of these days and shake off the identity they've given him. And if he ever does, they're in trouble. Until then though, he and people like him are just more enemies to fight.

Non violence, really? Is that really the answer?

Maybe it is, but I'm going to have to see it first. I hope before I die that I do see it.

[bowens43]

34. yes, non-violence IS the correct answer. nt

[Marazinia]

35. Let's see it work then

I'll be one of the happiest humans alive if you're right. Because violence is an ugly and scary thing.

[KurtNYC]

36. It has worked MANY times.

Well, Gene Sharp and others have studied non-violence and social revolutions extensively. They cite and recommend the following 198 methods which have ALL been effective in bringing about changes.

The Methods of Nonviolent Protest and Persuasion

Formal Statements
1. Public Speeches
2. Letters of opposition or support
3. Declarations by organizations and institutions
4. Signed public statements
5. Declarations of indictment and intention
6. Group or mass petitions

Communications with a Wider Audience
7. Slogans, caricatures, and symbols
8. Banners, posters, and displayed communications
9. Leaflets, pamphlets, and books
10. Newspapers and journals
11. Records, radio, and television
12. Skywriting and earthwriting

Group Representations
13. Deputations
14. Mock awards
15. Group lobbying
16. Picketing
17. Mock elections

Symbolic Public Acts
18. Displays of flags and symbolic colors
19. Wearing of symbols
20. Prayer and worship
21. Delivering symbolic objects
22. Protest disrobings
23. Destruction of own property
24. Symbolic lights
25. Displays of portraits
26. Paint as protest
27. New signs and names
28. Symbolic sounds
29. Symbolic reclamations
30. Rude gestures

Pressures on Individuals
31. "Haunting" officials
32. Taunting officials
33. Fraternization
34. Vigils

Drama and Music
35. Humorous skits and pranks
36. Performances of plays and music
37. Singing

Processions
38. Marches
39. Parades
40. Religious processions
41. Pilgrimages
42. Motorcades

Honoring the Dead
43. Political mourning
44. Mock funerals
45. Demonstrative funerals
46. Homage at burial places

Public Assemblies
47. Assemblies of protest or support
48. Protest meetings
49. Camouflaged meetings of protest
50. Teach-ins

Withdrawal and Renunciation
51. Walk-outs
52. Silence
53. Renouncing honors
54. Turning one’s back
The Methods of Social Noncooperation

Ostracism of Persons
55. Social boycott
56. Selective social boycott
57. Lysistratic nonaction
58. Excommunication
59. Interdict

Noncooperation with Social Events, Customs, and Institutions
60. Suspension of social and sports activities
61. Boycott of social affairs
62. Student strike
63. Social disobedience
64. Withdrawal from social institutions

Withdrawal from the Social System
65. Stay-at-home
66. Total personal noncooperation
67. "Flight" of workers
68. Sanctuary
69. Collective disappearance
70. Protest emigration (hijrat)
The Methods of Economic Noncooperation: Economic Boycotts

Actions by Consumers
71. Consumers’ boycott
72. Nonconsumption of boycotted goods
73. Policy of austerity
74. Rent withholding
75. Refusal to rent
76. National consumers’ boycott
77. International consumers’ boycott

Action by Workers and Producers
78. Workmen’s boycott
79. Producers’ boycott

Action by Middlemen
80. Suppliers’ and handlers’ boycott

Action by Owners and Management
81. Traders’ boycott
82. Refusal to let or sell property
83. Lockout
84. Refusal of industrial assistance
85. Merchants’ "general strike"

Action by Holders of Financial Resources
86. Withdrawal of bank deposits
87. Refusal to pay fees, dues, and assessments
88. Refusal to pay debts or interest
89. Severance of funds and credit
90. Revenue refusal
91. Refusal of a government’s money

Action by Governments
92. Domestic embargo
93. Blacklisting of traders
94. International sellers’ embargo
95. International buyers’ embargo
96. International trade embargo
The Methods of Economic Noncooperation: The Strike

Symbolic Strikes
97. Protest strike
98. Quickie walkout (lightning strike)

Agricultural Strikes
99. Peasant strike
100. Farm Workers’ strike

Strikes by Special Groups
101. Refusal of impressed labor
102. Prisoners’ strike
103. Craft strike
104. Professional strike

Ordinary Industrial Strikes
105. Establishment strike
106. Industry strike
107. Sympathetic strike

Restricted Strikes
108. Detailed strike
109. Bumper strike
110. Slowdown strike
111. Working-to-rule strike
112. Reporting "sick" (sick-in)
113. Strike by resignation
114. Limited strike
115. Selective strike

Multi-Industry Strikes
116. Generalized strike
117. General strike

Combination of Strikes and Economic Closures
118. Hartal
119. Economic shutdown
The Methods of Political Noncooperation

Rejection of Authority
120. Withholding or withdrawal of allegiance
121. Refusal of public support
122. Literature and speeches advocating resistance

Citizens’ Noncooperation with Government
123. Boycott of legislative bodies
124. Boycott of elections
125. Boycott of government employment and positions
126. Boycott of government departments, agencies, and other bodies
127. Withdrawal from government educational institutions
128. Boycott of government-supported organizations
129. Refusal of assistance to enforcement agents
130. Removal of own signs and placemarks
131. Refusal to accept appointed officials
132. Refusal to dissolve existing institutions

Citizens’ Alternatives to Obedience
133. Reluctant and slow compliance
134. Nonobedience in absence of direct supervision
135. Popular nonobedience
136. Disguised disobedience
137. Refusal of an assemblage or meeting to disperse
138. Sitdown
139. Noncooperation with conscription and deportation
140. Hiding, escape, and false identities
141. Civil disobedience of "illegitimate" laws

Action by Government Personnel
142. Selective refusal of assistance by government aides
143. Blocking of lines of command and information
144. Stalling and obstruction
145. General administrative noncooperation
146. Judicial noncooperation
147. Deliberate inefficiency and selective noncooperation by
enforcement agents
148. Mutiny

Domestic Governmental Action
149. Quasi-legal evasions and delays
150. Noncooperation by constituent governmental units

International Governmental Action
151. Changes in diplomatic and other representations
152. Delay and cancellation of diplomatic events
153. Withholding of diplomatic recognition
154. Severance of diplomatic relations
155. Withdrawal from international organizations
156. Refusal of membership in international bodies
157. Expulsion from international organizations
The Methods of Nonviolent Intervention

Psychological Intervention
158. Self-exposure to the elements
159. The fast
a) Fast of moral pressure
b) Hunger strike
c) Satyagrahic fast
160. Reverse trial
161. Nonviolent harassment

Physical Intervention
162. Sit-in
163. Stand-in
164. Ride-in
165. Wade-in
166. Mill-in
167. Pray-in
168. Nonviolent raids
169. Nonviolent air raids
170. Nonviolent invasion
171. Nonviolent interjection
172. Nonviolent obstruction
173. Nonviolent occupation

Social Intervention
174. Establishing new social patterns
175. Overloading of facilities
176. Stall-in
177. Speak-in
178. Guerrilla theater
179. Alternative social institutions
180. Alternative communication system

Economic Intervention
181. Reverse strike
182. Stay-in strike
183. Nonviolent land seizure
184. Defiance of blockades
185. Politically motivated counterfeiting
186. Preclusive purchasing
187. Seizure of assets
188. Dumping
189. Selective patronage
190. Alternative markets
191. Alternative transportation systems
192. Alternative economic institutions

Political Intervention
193. Overloading of administrative systems
194. Disclosing identities of secret agents
195. Seeking imprisonment
196. Civil disobedience of "neutral" laws
197. Work-on without collaboration
198. Dual sovereignty and parallel government

http://www.aforcemorepowerful.org/resources/nonviolent/methods.php

Please see also this list of very significant successes achieved through non-violent means:
http://www.aforcemorepowerful.org/resources/resistance-movements.php

including:
Russia - General strike 1906
El Salvador 1944 - general strike topples dictator General Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez
Phillipines 1986 - Marcos toppled by encamped Philipinos

[Marazinia]

37. That's an amazing list

And I'm ashamed to say I'd forgotten about this one from your link:

Argentina (1977-1983)

On March 24, 1976, a military coup unleashes a multiyear wave of terror. The junta browbeats the press, the judiciary, the Church, and trade unions. As kidnappings of civilians mount, mothers of "the disappeared" join together. In April 1977, 14 mothers – Las Madres – hold a vigil in front of the presidential palace in Buenos Aires. Their numbers growing, the women continue to gather despite beatings, arrests, and the disappearances of nine of their members. Las Madres also circulate petitions, take out newspaper advertisements, and hold prayer services for the missing. A severe economic crisis in the early 1980s and the disastrous invasion of the Falkland Islands in 1982 further discredit the junta, ending the timidity of religious, business, and labor leaders. Demonstrations that begin in 1982 eventually succeed in forcing the junta to hold elections and cede power to a civilian government.

[bowens43]

33. agreed, these jackasses are exactly what the movement doesn't need. nt

[DeSwiss]

28. K&R n/t