Israeli soldiers killing Furkan 19 years (The Freedom Flotilla)

[kas125]

Run time: 00:22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlElXOJV4CA   Posted on YouTube: June 09, 2010 By YouTube Member: sami69l3 Views on YouTube: 360   Posted on DU: June 10, 2010 By DU Member: kas125 Views on DU: 1580

 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlElXOJV4CA

[Merchant Marine]

1. Kind of weird

The longarm being held by the soldier looks like a shotgun, which would be chambered in 12 gauge buckshot or slugs, neither of which would leave much of a head if shot by it at point blank range.

I don't see any recoil of shots being fired. All you can really see is a soldier loading shells into the magazine and working the slide. No flash or powder smoke either.

[aquart]

8. You could see that much? You're good.

At what moment on the video was there the sound of gunfire? You were looking for recoil so when did you hear the sound? I was so confused by the inadequate visual I think I missed it completely.

[EFerrari]

2. Where did this come from?

[Oerdin]

3. What happened before?

I find it extremely suspicious that it only shows the end and not the beginning. The Turkish film crew is obviously hiding something with selective editing. I'm willing to bet they are trying to hide the fact that the fellow who was shot was violent and trying to murder an Israeli soldier by beating him with an iron rod. This truth might be unpopular here at DU but I'm willing to bet it is still the truth.

[shaayecanaan]

4. Do you likewise find it extremely suspicious...

that all of the IDF videos show plenty of stick-waving from the activists, but not the part where the IDF start shooting people?

Or is it selective extreme suspicion that you have (SES)? Thats a very common affliction around this forum.

[avaistheone1]

6. +100

[aquart]

10. Please explain why edited Turkish video is more reliable than edited Israeli video?

Only the Turks were stupid enough to get killed during a carefully-planned publicity stunt. One day, one of you frothing at the mouth hysterics might ask how that happened.

In ANY crime, the first question of an investigator is WHO BENEFITS?

Now show me the pretzel logic of how Israel benefited from this mess. Come on, I know you can do it.

[MrModerate]

11. Nonsense. The first question is "What's the motivation."

Not all crimes -- not even most -- are cold calculations. The motivation here is pretty obvious: "Show the subhuman islamists who's boss."

Per Israeli policy for the last 75 years.

Oh, by the way, your statement "only the Turks were stupid enough to get killed" tells one everything one needs to know about your character. I'm scraping you off the bottom of my shoe.

[Wizard777]

15. Uuuuuuh, because Turkey is not destroying Israel's videos?

:shrug:

[Chulanowa]

18. Do you believe the edited Israeli video, Aquart?

Maybe you do, maybe you don't, I dunno. Just asking if you do.

Who benefits? Well, the dead people sure aren't benefiting. Nor is the organization in question. The Turkish government isn't getting any bonuses. The people of Gaza aren't benefiting. Even the boat itself is probably still a mess.

As you state though, Israel certainly isn't getting any benefit. This is really bad PR for the state of Israel, after all, and has severely damaged relations with one of the only allies Israel has in the neighborhood. it even managed to get the US to... Well, not criticize or condemn, but even the annoyed sigh we gave Israel is a sign of bad things.

But then... The blockade itself is of no benefit to Israel. But they persist in it. With lethal force, evidently. Israel damaged itself while enforcing something that does not help Israel on any level.

So... Maybe it's not a question of "who benefits?" so much as "Who forgot to take their antisychotics?" 'Cause killing people to defend a pointless blockade just isn't that rational.

[mike_c]

27. first and foremost, because Israel has lied repeatedly...

...while Turkey has so far presented events honestly-- unless you believe the lies Israel has spread. Which you seem to accept hook, line, and sinker.

[Wizard777]

14. That is an actual condition you're trying to identify. But it's called Omitted Variable Bias.

The estimator has omitted a variable that should have been included in the model. In this case that is possibly do to a Cognitive Bias to confirm a prior belief.

[EFerrari]

5. Several passengers have said he was holding a deadly

camera.

[aquart]

12. How would they know?

Because it looked like night to me. Is that just really bad filming? Were there floodlights? If there were, why couldn't we see more?

If you have prejudged the guilt of the Israelis (who are not, of course, mere human soldiers but ISRAEL BRINGER OF DEATH) then you don't need light to see a camera in the boy's hands.

I'm having trouble understanding how witnesses saw anything IN THE DARK. Allah gave them magic eyes? Night vision goggles? Which are military items and I would probably ask why they thought they needed them on a peace mission.

The second wave of Israelis came down shooting to kill. NINE PEOPLE DIED. THIRTY were wounded. In what space of time? PLEASE explain to me how people ducking for cover or yelling OUCH! saw anything?

[olegramps]

16. You exposed your prejudice when you said, "All Allah gave them magic eyes."

Why didn't Israel simply ask the captain to be allowed to board to determine if that they were not carrying banned munitions rather than launching an assault?

[subsuelo]

19. "Allah gave them magic eyes"?

Interesting views you have...

Very revealing, actually.

[EFerrari]

23. Have you ever used a camera? Cameras don't pick up ALL the ambient

light. And if you recall, it was dark OUTSIDE. There were lights INSIDE on all three decks in various areas. In the press pool, for example. Remember the reporter who was on the air during the attack?

[Tripmann]

30. Wheres the confiscated footage then, aquart?

Wheres the cooberating footage to israels narrative other than the 1 minute clip?

Nobody is buying it.

[Chulanowa]

7. Trying to murder an Israeli soldier by beating him with an iron rod...

I like how, over the past five days, "pipes and deck chairs" have morphed into "iron rods and stun grenades" while the Israeli's "live ammunition" has become "paintballs."

"This truth"? You mean your biased supposition and your "bet"?

[aquart]

13. I was mugged with a pipe once.

Please, let me vouch for the lethal potential of pipe.

[Chulanowa]

17. Oh, I'm sure

I'm just commenting on how the people on the boats have been getting better-armed with each retelling, and the Israeli soldiers have gotten steadily more poorly-armed.

I expect by next week I'll be hearing about the folks on the boat pointing RPGs at naked Israelis armed with water balloons.

I've been on the receiving end of a pipe, myself. And rebar. And an axe handle. And a car fender. And a deck chair (No, really. Poolside brawl.) And a knife (learned how to do my own stitches that night!) And a mean dog. And an even meaner woman (at least the dog only bit me once and didn't go for the throat.) I haven't been shot unless one regards slingshots and pellet guns as being shot. I had an interesting adolescence, let's just say.

I seem to be alive. As do you. As do the four Israeli soldiers kittens who were on the receiving end. It would seem that while getting beaten with a pipe can kill you, getting shot four times in the head and once in the chest is a much more likely way to topple off the mortal coil. I mean there's you, me, and these four Israeli guys, none of whom seem to have died from assault with plumbing, but there are nine dead people with bullets all up in their business. I think we're outnumbered (but then I don't consider Turks to be 3/5th of a human being, so your count may vary)

So hey, question. Why are these Israeli soldiers kittens sill alive, anyway? We have an entire ship that is apparently full of Jew-hating axe murderers or something. They had these Israeli dudes in their hands long enough, and apparently they had the means and methods to kill them, and according to you and many others, the flaming desire to do so. They had not only the sticks and forks and chairs they picked up, but also the weapons of the Israeli soldiers kittens. They could have put a bullet in each of those guys' tender brain-meats. And since according to The Narrative, they were all suicidal martyrdom-seeking jihadis to boot, so they don't exactly have the "saving my own ass" incentive to NOT do the deed.

So... Why the hell didn't they? I mean that is the perfect setup for the death of several Israeli soldiers kittens, isn't it? Crazed antisemitic jihadi motherfuckers with disarmed soldiers kittens in their hands for several minutes below-decks. All the people on the boat are horrible terrorists seeking martyrdom and the death of Israelis, according to The Narrative, so...

Why the hell aren't those Israeli soldiers kittens dead?

[aquart]

9. The TURKISH film crew? And only Turks died?

No axe to grind there. No desperate need for vindication to keep from looking like idiots since there wasn't a single corpse on any other flotilla boat.

So far the only stories I buy have been from Al Jazeera people. They were mad as wet hens but making a real effort to keep the story straight.

[lumpy]

31. James Elshayyal an AlJazeera reporter who was on board

the humanitarian ship, an eye witness to the events, managed to hold onto his video of some of the events on that ship. His eye witness account is on video on the Axis of Logic (English edition) site.
He claims that people were shot before the boarding by IDF. His video appears to support that, it shows people who have been shot being treated by their shipmates with no evidence of IDF presence. So far his is the most believable account heard thus far. He is a Britisher, on board in his professional capacity.
You say the only stories you buy are from AlJazeera's people. So see this and tell us what you think.

[civilisation]

21. The so called 'violent protesters' killed no one! Wake up!

If you listen to the eye witnesses instead of being "willing to bet" on what the TRUTH is, you would know that the commandos shot first, before landing on the ship. The 'violent protesters' where defending themselves from men with guns. The Israeli commandos killed at least 9 people, not to mention injuring many more. Including an american 21 year old who lost an eye. Why keep defending the violent aggressors and the morally indefensible?

[Ticonderoga]

22. What happened before

was the Criminal IDF illegally boarded a soverign nations ship in international water armed with automatic weapons and posing a great threat to the crew and passengers. Anything that transpired after is rather immaterial. Dontchathink?

[KWMB]

20. Opinion

First, I wish to say hello to the DU crowd. Even though this is only my second post, I have been reading on the site for quite a few weeks now. When I finally did have something to say, the person's post I responded to was deleted by a moderator, as was my post. It happens, I guess.

Second, I wish to convey my deepest sadness over the deaths that occurred during this fiasco. The loss of life under circumstances such as these is not only a waste, but a blight on humanity. That being said...(here's where I get chased off with torches and pitchforks...)

I do not condone the actions of those who fired upon these people and caused those nine deaths, but I challenge some to drop their preconceptions and personal biases (we all have them, to a greater or lesser degree) for a moment and consider the mentality of both parties for a moment.

While I do not agree with the compulsive, militaristic attitude of the Israeli soldiers in this case - it is, nonetheless, a reality, despite my feelings either way. As troubled as I am by their actions, it in no way surprises me. However one may feel about the blockade or what transpired on that vessel, that flotilla did challenge the blockade by attempting to break it. By doing so, they willingly challenged an armed, extremely militaristic group of people. If I wish to cross a street, and there is a man holding a gun on the other side of the street who is known for violent, militaristic attitudes -- I will probably choose not to cross that street. It does not make it right, for I should have the right to cross the street whenever I choose...but the reality is, there is an armed, violent person across that street. And if no one is with me who can disarm him and/or guarantee my safety, I am not crossing that street - because of what 'could' happen.

Likewise, while I do not enjoy the fact that people died, I challenge you to consider 'mob mentality' for a moment. Let me start by saying I in no way 'blame' the victims for their sufferings or deaths -- no one should have been harmed or killed in that flotilla, plain and simple. But one must consider whom these civilians were going up against. That being said, I will consider the potential mob-mentality that, unintentionally or not, could have played some role in what transpired. Once contact had been made between the flotilla and the Israelis, despite who said what first, the flotilla was given an order. Rightfully or wrongfully, they were given an order to make port elsewhere. Once they decided to ignore that order, I cannot believe at least some people in that flotilla were not on high-alert. Knowing who they were facing and their reputation, to not have expected that a direct confrontation was inevitable is foolhardy. Knowingly attempting to circumvent an armed force, nervous, anxious, and no doubt receiving a little inspirational activist talk, I can only imagine the adrenaline level of that flotilla.

Fast forward to the boarding of the vessel by the Israelis -- again, I stress that I in no way blame the victims for their suffering. For humans and any other creature, when backed into a corner and threatened, will elicit the fight-or-flight syndrome. Once in that heightened state of anxiety, one can only imagine how one would react in the face of such a threat. Combine that with the mob-mentality of many scared, anxious, angry, etc. people -- this is like a chapter from my early psychology classes -- it is a disaster waiting to happen. All it would have taken is one violent move by one Israeli soldier to ignite that situation to catastrophic levels...as it did.

My point? It is okay to be angry and disagree with the actions of those Israeli soldiers. It is okay to be against the blockade that they have continued to impose on Gaza. It is okay to want to help those in Gaza who need aid. But it is also okay to acknowledge the possibility that perhaps the flotilla overestimated their own power, and underestimated the potential for violence from the Israeli soldiers.

All in all - without casting blame on anyone, I believe this whole incident could have been avoided. I was not there, nor were many who will read this post - but that is my opinion.

P.S. I am happy to become a part of DU and look forward to listening to your stories, and sharing mine.

[EFerrari]

24. By every account, the passgengers on that flotilla did not expect IDF

to use lethal force. They were the 5th or 6th flotilla and it had never happened before. So, it wasn't a matter of them overestimating their own power but of underestimating the Israeli's potential for violence.

Welcome to DU.

[KWMB]

25. Hello

I am giddy and elated at getting my first reply - I feel like part of the family now. Thanks!! In the end, I guess the only thing that really matters is the fact that nine people are dead -- regardless of the details, those nine people are still dead, and the soldiers involved should be held accountable.

[EFerrari]

28. And six people are still unaccounted for. Hopefully, they will be found. n/t

[kas125]

26. You're also forgetting the fact that the ships in the flotilla had

turned around and were going in the opposite direction when they were attacked. Where it was, the direction it was going at what times are all puclic record. The ship was headed AWAY from Gaza and away from Israel when it was attacked. There is NO justification for attacking a civilian ship in international waters in the first place, but make no mistake, what happened is that the Israeli navy attacked civilians who had done what they were requested to do - turn around - and killed them anyway.

[lumpy]

32. Yes, eye witness James Elshayyal, British AlJazeera reporter

on board the ship verifies that the ship was turning around out of range. Not only that he claims passengers were shot before IDF boarded the ship. His video showing shot passengers being treated by fellow passengers etc. shows no evidence that IDF was present at that time. I listened to his account of the event and his imprisonment on the Axis of Logic (British) web site.
His account of the tragic eventi s very believable.

[KWMB]

29. A change of heart

I just watched the latest video released regarding the flotilla. After further inquiry, I can no longer stand behind my previous statement. There is no excuse for this tragedy. However intelligent we as a species may be, all over the world humans do the most vile things to their fellow man. I worry sometimes for the future of our species -- is peace so hard? We should be building gardens, not walls. Anyway, I digress.