Cindy Sheehan, Others Assaulted by Vet at Anti-Afghanistan Rally

[Hissyspit]

Run time: 08:23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hPsk8nfLIQ   Posted on YouTube: November 29, 2009 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: November 30, 2009 By DU Member: Hissyspit Views on DU: 12680

 
ABC 30 News Video: http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=7142511

Cindy from Facebook:

Cindy Sheehan still getting emails from people attacking me for "bullying" old, frail vet. I am not owning that. He aggressively assaulted me and I didn't even become violent in self-defense, I turned away from him after he was physical. I am not going to apologize for telling someone who wanted to punch me in the face to "get out of my face." What's wrong with our country when a Gold Star mom gets assaulted and people blame her?

http://cindysheehanssoapbox.blogspot.com/2009/11/killing-is-right-and-proper-what.html

Sunday, November 29, 2009
"Killing is right and proper" (What happened at Travis AFB, yesterday)
“The Killing is Right and Proper”

Cindy Sheehan

Yesterday, Bay Area CODEPINK and I, started our caravan to Creech AFB in Nevada with a morning peace rally at Travis AFB in Fairfield, CA.

After we got there we were informed that we had to move off the base and were shown by MPs where we could protest. As good warriors for free speech and peace, we groused about it and we were moving forward to where we were supposed to go, when a very angry older man pulled up and started yelling at us to: “Don’t go, I want to counter protest you.” I told him, first of all, he shouldn’t be drinking so early in the morning, and secondly not to worry, that we were going anywhere, we were just moving about 100 yards away.

We decided to just stop and take a picture by the Travis AFB sign and then we were going to get back in our cars to caravan down to Lemoore NAS because it was extremely windy and we were running a little late anyway.

I was giving a little speech denouncing the drone-bombing program and the upcoming 50 percent troop escalation to Afghanistan, when the angry old man, now dressed in a military uniform, charged around the corner and got right into my bullhorn—I told him to get out of my face and he very violently slaps the bullhorn away from me.

Everything happened so quickly: I was so shocked that I was actually physically assaulted that I just turned away from him and that’s when my colleague, Suzanne immediately jumped to my aid and got between the man and me. He swore profusely and pushed her—and then a mini-melee ensued. The numerous MPs and POs that were there finally intervened after I asked them to stop the man from assaulting my friends. I touched no one even though I was within my rights to defend myself. The video clearly shows that the aggressor and the person who brought unreasoning anger and violence to the rally was Sgt. Phil Ward

After the mini-melee, a Fairfield Police Officer, told Suzanne and I that we couldn’t press charges against the man who physically assaulted us because it was a “he-said, she-said” situation, when at least one dozen law enforcement officers were standing around and witnessing the events AND if we did press charges, then Suzanne and I would also have to go to jail until things got sorted out! Complete bullshit.

After all that, when we were leaving, like we were asked to, I got about 2 feet out of the parking lot and I noticed one of the CODEPINK women was not in the van, so I pulled over to the side of the road to wait for her and as soon I we got rolling again, to add insult to injury, I WAS PULLED OVER and detained for about one-half hour and kept isolated in my car from the others until I was presented with a ticket for “impeding traffic!”

We dropped my daughter’s car off and I hopped in the van with a group of desperadoes, (with me being the third youngest, at 52, and six out of eleven in the van being over 70), and we headed down to Lemoore NAS and a National Guard post in Fresno. After another three- hour drive from Fresno, we landed at a cheap motel in Mojave California and I was shocked to open my email and see that I had received numerous emails attacking me for essentially “bullying” a poor, old military veteran.

I watched the news videos to confirm my recollection, which was 100 percent correct. I got to watch an interview that Phil Ward did after his attack on us and he says that the killing in the wars is “right and proper” and was exceedingly upset with Obama because he is only sending 34,000 more troops to Afghanistan when the generals asked for 40,000 more. During an interview with me, I am clearly shaken, but I say, “no matter how much violence they bring to us, we will bring them more peace.”

MORE

[cliffordu]

1. At least Cindy is out there putting her shit on the line for what she believes

Instead of running with the posers here on DU.

[paulsby]

2. i respect cindy, but she's full of it.

"I was giving a little speech denouncing the drone-bombing program and the upcoming 50 percent troop escalation to Afghanistan, when the angry old man, now dressed in a military uniform, charged around the corner and got right into my bullhorn—I told him to get out of my face and he very violently slaps the bullhorn away from me."

that's crap. watch the video. the man has his hands behind his back and is standing there yelling at her, when she turns her bullhorn towards him (he doesn't move towards it. she moves it towards him) and holds it near or maybe against his face, so he slaps it away.

she claims that by doing this he "physically assaulted" her. get real

and the cop did the right thing, by basically blowing her off because it was a bullshit complaint, and the video makes that abundantly clear.

[Hissyspit]

3. I did watch. He assaulted her first. If he didn't like the bullhorn he could have backed away.

He assaulted her and then assaulted others, cursing the whole time. He didn't have any business doing it. Technically, he was guilty of assault. He was abusive and physically threatening.

[paulsby]

4. he was using free speech

just like cindy was using. sorry, but yelling and being a putz does not make one guilty of assault.

i once saw (at N30 protest) a guy walk up get in my partner's face (he's black) and call him a fucking n****r.

was that an ASSAULT? get real.

omg, the guy was "cursing the whole time"

and he (this is my favorite part of your "analysis") "he didn't have any business doing it"

so, you are the arbiter of what speech is acceptable and what isn't, and who has "business" of speaking their mind.

watch the video. the guy did not assault cindy. she turned her microphone TOWARDS him and on to his face, so he batted it away.

her complaint is bullshit. for pete's sake, up until she put the bullhorn in his face, he had his hands behind his back! oooh, how threatening to her.

sorry, she's wrong.

[Hissyspit]

6. We are talking about the assault. He physically strikes at her and then strikes at others.

He didn't have any business striking at her. He could have backed away from the megaphone. Legal definition of assault. End of discussion.

[paulsby]

8. if she stick a frigging bullhorn on to his face, (they are loud btw)

no jury in their right mind would find him guilty of assault for merely batting it away.

cindy claimed he "physically assaulted" her by slapping it away from his face.

that is utter rubbish.

and as the video clearly shows, SHE turned the bullhorn towards his face. he didn't move towards it. she moved it on top of his face.

the guy is standing a foot or two from her. it's not like she didn't see him.

it's a bullshit complaint and any real cop would have told her to pound sand, which is what the cop did.

i realize that being a media figure makes one feel all self important, like "omg, how can this person get in my face and tell me i am wrong. i am cindy sheehan. i am speaking truth to power. he has no "business" (in the immortal words of the esteemed Hissyspit) questioning me, the great sheehan. i will turn my all powerful bullhorn and place it on to his face and tell him "what for". let him deal with my tenacious gold star mom wrath"

puleeeze. it's a nothing incident. if he slapped her, you might have a point. he slapped the bullhorn away because SHE pushed it on to his face.

[Hissyspit]

9. It may be a nothing incident, but he should have moved away. He was looking for a tussle and

created it. A completely typical right-wing ass.

You are misrepresenting me and you know it, of course. I said he had not business threatening her and escalating the situation physically, not that he didn't have any business questioning her. And I have no idea if I am 'esteemed' or not, but keep your patronizing insults to yourself. I didn't use any.

[paulsby]

24. he stood his ground

so instead of backing away, he pushed the bullhorn aside. so what?

fwiw, in US law (unlike many countries) there is never a requirement to back away or retreat. this distinguishes our case law from many other countries.

it's kind of like basketball. once you set the pick...

[me b zola]

31. Stood his ground? Cindy was standing on that ground

That nasty fart tried to move Cindy from where she was standing.

[paulsby]

33. in the bullhorn incident, he was standing next to cindy.

her bullhorn was not directed towards him. they chirped at each other, then cindy swung her bullhorn around towards him and shoved it in his face.

that is the portion of the incident i am referring to

[liberation]

45. LOL, dude... thanks for your "concern"

...although maybe you should be concerned about your colors showing instead.

[TheDebbieDee]

73. I saw things the same way as Paulsby did.......

So, I guess you are questioning my colors, too.

I saw two younger, more agile women attempt to physically and emotionally double-team an older man.

I am a veteran but I hate both of *'s wars. If she had been in my neck of the woods, I may have even been out there protesting with Cindy Sheehan. But the minute I saw the second woman come into play, I would have kicked both of those 8itches a$$e$.

Cindy deserves respect for fighting for a favored cause but that elder veteran deserves respect, too.

[Raineyb]

151. Are you fucking kidding me?

He pushed her first and is hiding behind his uniform hoping it'll give him a pass.

His age gives him no pass for getting into someone's face and pushing them.

[Downtown Hound]

183. Here's my analysis of the tape:

0:00- Cindy addresses crowd
1:49- Cantankerous Dipshit begins to verbally harass her
1:56- Cantankerous Dipshit walks right up to Cindy, interrupting her speech and aggressively approaching her. Cindy never takes a single step, away from or towards Cantankerous Dipshit.
2:03-Cantankerous Dipshit has walked right into Cindy’s bullhorn. There is only one step that Cindy has taken at this point, and that is AWAY from Cantankerous Dipshit. She has taken no steps towards him.
2:06-Cantankerous Dipshit has physically knocked Cindy’s hand holding her bullhorn out of the way.

The rest of the time it’s just a shouting match, one that Cantankerous Dipshit started and bears complete responsibility for. Now, explain to me how any of this is Cindy's fault.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

112. You crack me up. He belly-bumped her first. Look again.

She tells him he shouldn't drink so early, he steps to the left of the megaphone and bumps her. THAT'S when she turns the device to him while he is already in her space.

If THAT isn't disorderly conduct, I don't know WHAT is. It's probably also simple battery.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

114. He makes contact with his stomach first before she swings around.

[zinnisking]

129. Cindy was using the bullhorn

BEFORE mister BIG SHOT tough-guy intentionally invaded and prevented her from using it by getting within a foot from her face. He encroached the space that she was already using. AFTER she turned her body away from mister macho pig, he moved so close to her that she was unable to use it. Since he was so close to her, she even had to take a step backward in order to use the bullhorn like she was before the tyrant invaded the space that she was using.

Cindy has the courage that I don't know I would have in the face of such an intimidating disgusting tyrant. Bless her and the majority of admirable people in this thread who feel the same way I do.

Again, she was using the bullhorn BEFORE tough-guy moved within a foot of her face.

I hope this guy was never a police officer. Chauvinist bullies like this guy have no business in that position.

Damn it. I HATE macho chauvinist JERKS.

[theFrankFactor]

52. That Fucker WALKED INTO THE BULL HORN. He was looking for shit and he got it.

How many steps did Cindy take to get in HIS face?

[Downtown Hound]

145. Um no, I'm sorry, but that's bullshit

He walked right into her bullhorn, and then batted it away. He was clearly the aggressor, not Cindy.

[DWilliamsamh]

39. Not end of discussion....

She shoved the bullhorn into his face after turning it toward him.... He slapped the bull horn out of his face - after she pushed it there. Everything else flowed from there.

And I love Cindy's tenacity as well, and I respect her years long commitment to doing what she thinks is right and protesting what she sees as wrong. Hell most of what she thinks is right and wrong I agree with. But she was in the wrong.

Yeah I think the old man was an asshole, but he wasn't wrong about pushing the bull horn out of his face. If she (or anyone else) had shoved a bull horn into my face and spoked through it at the time, I would have slapped it away too.

[Tejas]

64. Partially agree, would've been one less bullhorn in this world. nt

[Hissyspit]

87. Or you could have backed away instead of nearly knocking her

teeth in due to a situation he started as if he was in some bar fight. She asked him to get out of her face and he didn't. I imagine she gets tired of dealing with thugs. The whole incident reminds me of the night she came to read DU during the Bush years to read progressive viewpoints and found a thread calling her a c***. Whatever her shortcomings, I don't blame her for just being plain tired of the shit.

[DWilliamsamh]

100. I can understand why she would be tired of "that shit" but it comes with the territory

Do you think Jesse Jackson wasn't called a nigger within an inch of his face as he protested? Do you think Gandhi wasn't screamed at and told he was scum? Do you think Susan B. Anthony wasn't called a bitch and screamed at by men who were bullies so close that their spittle stained her cheeks? Did they have the "right" to strike out? To shove those people "away?" Maybe. But their example shows that your protest is better served buy allowing those idiots to scream bloody murder and show themselves to be the unreasoning cretins that they are. Notice I didn't say they (or Cindy Sheehan) should allow themselves to be physically hit. But he DIDN'T hit her. He reacted to the bull horn being shoved in his face BY her.

Being screamed at and verbally accosted comes with the territory of taking a principled stand when others feel passionately that you are wrong. He had no obligation to "back off." His obligation was to not touch her - until he felt physically accosted. She turned toward HIM. She shoved the bull horn in HIS face, to within millimeters if not touching him. Then he shoved the bull horn out of his face. And again - everything else flowed from that moment with the bull horn turned into his face by Ms. Sheehan, and then her scream into that bull horn that was either touching his face or withing millimeters of it.

Although I think the guy was a jerk and an ugly example of the ignorance that Ms. Sheehan opposes, her right to protest wasn't "stopped" by his ugly opposition.

[John Q. Citizen]

147. He pushed her first.

[DWilliamsamh]

177. No...he didn't. Watch the tape.

He was an ugly nasty man, screaming obscenities, and he was wrong about what he was saying (protesters don't hurt the moral of the troops - trust this veteran on that one). But he didn't touch her before she shoved that bull horn in his face. I actually don't think he touched her after she did that - it was the other woman who he was belly bumping with.

[Downtown Hound]

184. You watch the tape again my friend

She didn't shove the bullhorn into his face. He walked right into it and then knocked it out of her hand.

[DWilliamsamh]

187. Ok. You are determined to see it as you wish. I can't change that and won't try.

The police did exactly what they should have done: tell her to piss off due to the fact that it was mutual antagonism.

[Downtown Hound]

190. And you are obviously determined to ignore reality

Does the man walk up to her or not? Who's feet are moving? Is it Cindy's? No. Is it the asshole's? Yes. If your own eyes fail to grasp this rather simple fact then it is you that are determined to see it as you wish, not I.

Just answer me that question, if you would be so kind. Who's feet are actually moving? Does Cindy approach the man or does the man approach her? Because I have now watched this tape several times, and no matter how I or anybody else may try and deny it, it is as plain as the mother fucking day that he comes up to her and sticks his face right into her bullhorn.

Just watch their legs, sir. It is NOT, I repeat, NOT Cindy's legs that are moving. Except for one step she takes BACKWARDS when the moron first sticks his dumbass face into her bullhorn.

[DWilliamsamh]

206. He walks up to her side....

He is not touching her. He is about a foot away - very close and uncomfortable proximity to a screaming jerk off, I grant you, but not in anyway touching her. No assault. Boorish disgusting language and stupid thinking expressed in an offensive way. But not assault. SHE turns to him and places the bull horn in his face....the rest flows from there.


The police acted exactly as they should have - separated the complainants and interviewed them all (including the grumpy old man), and concluded they were all engaged in a mutually antagonistic kerfuffle. No charges could be laid without charging them all.

[Downtown Hound]

207. He walked up and got right in her face

I'll tell you right now, I don't care who you are, if you or anybody else does that to me, I'm taking that as a threat. He is intentionally provoking her and disrupting her protest. As far as I'm concerned he deserved a good hard left hook for pulling that shit, and if that old bastard did that to me and then knocked my bullhorn out of my hand like this jerk off did, we're throwing down. That's not a threat. I just don't take shit from anybody, especially not cantankerous old warmongering assholes.

And yeah, if I walked up to you, stuck my face in yours, got in your bullhorn while you were engaged in a protest, and then knocked your hand down, that would be assault. A minor case of assault to be sure, but assault nevertheless.

I can guarantee you that if an anti-war protester did that to a veteran giving a speech, they would be arrested on the spot. You can deny that all you want, but you're a fool if you do.

And the only screaming jerk off in this video is asshole boy himself. Cindy is quite calm and collected until this piece of shit attacks her. That you call Cindy the screaming jerk off here tells me a lot about you, and what it tells isn't good. Just something for you to chew on while you think of new and improved bullshit ways to spin this video to make it seem like Cindy is the bad person here.

[DWilliamsamh]

210. Ok...My response.......

"I'll tell you right now, I don't care who you are, if you or anybody else does that to me, I'm taking that as a threat. He is intentionally provoking her and disrupting her protest. There is no right not to have a protest interrupted or counter protested. I will say the MP's and police should have kept them separated. THat was a HUGE failure on their part As far as I'm concerned he deserved a good hard left hook for pulling that shit, and if that old bastard did that to me and then knocked my bullhorn out of my hand like this jerk off did, we're throwing down. That's not a threat. I just don't take shit from anybody, especially not cantankerous old warmongering assholes. Then YOU would be guilty of assaulting an old man. Good on you I suppose. But what would you do if someone turned a bull horn into your face millimeters from it or even touching it, and screamed into it? Considering what you just said you would do if someone "interrupted your protest, I will assume pushing the bull horn forcefully away would have been the least of your response. Why is he under any less freedom to defend himself?"

And yeah, if I walked up to you, stuck my face in yours, got in your bullhorn while you were engaged in a protest, and then knocked your hand down, that would be assault. Not if I turned the bullhorn into your face and yelled into it it wouldn't. You'd be defending yourself. See my comments above. A minor case of assault to be sure, but assault nevertheless.

I can guarantee you that if an anti-war protester did that to a veteran giving a speech, they would be arrested on the spot. You can deny that all you want, but you're a fool if you do. Not a fool, someone who understands the law. I am not assaulting you, by pushing the bull horn you stuck within millimeters of my face away from my face.

And the only screaming jerk off in this video is asshole boy himself. Cindy is quite calm and collected until this piece of shit attacks her. That you call Cindy the screaming jerk off here tells me a lot about you, and what it tells isn't good. What does it tell you about me that I can call someone I agree with 99% of the time a screaming jerk off, when they are being a screaming jerk off? That I don't like anyone being a screaming jerk off? That I hold those I agree with to at least as high a standard of behavior as those I don't? What else? Just something for you to chew on while you think of new and improved bullshit ways to spin this video to make it seem like Cindy is the bad person here."

I didn't say Cindy is a bad person. I think she is a very good person. One who I agree with on a myriad of issues. I am just saying her behavior wasn't up to snuff; she let herself become a screaming jerk, and that the grumpy old idiot, didn't assault her. Also saying from what I saw, the cops would have had to arrest everyone involved on mutual assault charges.

[Downtown Hound]

212. La dah dah dee dah, here you go:

"There is no right not to have a protest interrupted or counter protested. I will say the MP's and police should have kept them separated. That was a HUGE failure on their part"

It's not a question of rights. If you really have to be the type of dickhead that interrupts somebody's protest, then you can do it without screaming and sticking your face into the bullhorn of somebody giving a speech. If I was to do that to anybody's else's protest, I would fully expect to get my ass kicked. All this whining you're doing about Cindy turning the bullhorn on this asshole that aggressively approached her screaming his lungs out seems to ignore the fact that this dipshit brought it on himself. Don't want the bullhorn stuck in your face? Here's an idea: DON"T WALK RIGHT INTO IT NEXT TIME DUMBASS!


"But what would you do if someone turned a bull horn into your face millimeters from it or even touching it, and screamed into it? Considering what you just said you would do if someone "interrupted your protest, I will assume pushing the bull horn forcefully away would have been the least of your response. Why is he under any less freedom to defend himself?"

No, no, no. See, here's where, if you'll forgive me, I find you to be completely full of shit. You are not defending yourself if you are the aggressor. That's like asking a rapist if he has the right to defend himself against his victim should she choose to fight back. Granted, that's a little bit of an extreme example, but the principle is the same. You keep making it sound like Cindy attacked this man with her bullhorn, when it was this man that got right into her face. The entire incident Cindy never takes a single step towards him. So I'll just repeat what I said above, you don't want the bullhorn shoved in your face: DON"T WALK INTO IT NEXT TIME DUMBASS!

"Not if I turned the bullhorn into your face and yelled into it it wouldn't. You'd be defending yourself. See my comments above."

I wouldn't have turned the bullhorn into your face if you hadn't walked right up to me and gotten into mine and started screaming. You started it, now own up to it. You should never have come up to my face to begin with, and I'm holding this bullhorn which you were stupid enough to walk right into, as a way of telling you you better get the fuck back. And instead of getting the fuck back, you swatted my hand down. Sorry, but, it's on now dude. I am defending myself against you, not the other way around. Don't come up to me starting shit like that and whine that you got a bullhorn shoved in your face. You're lucky that's all you got.

"I am not assaulting you, by pushing the bull horn you stuck within millimeters of my face away from my face."

Hate to break it to you, but the bullhorn was here before you. You were dumb enough to walk right into it. Had you not walked into it, it never would never have been shoved into your face. Now stop whining.

"What does it tell you about me that I can call someone I agree with 99% of the time a screaming jerk off, when they are being a screaming jerk off? That I don't like anyone being a screaming jerk off? That I hold those I agree with to at least as high a standard of behavior as those I don't? What else?"

It tells me that your powers of observation leave much to be desired, but I already knew that. Cindy is quite calm and collected until this dickhead ASSAULTS her. It's actually the guy that's being a screaming jerk off, not her.

And just to clarify, I'm not really all that outraged that this idiot wasn't arrested for assault. I really don't care. It's a minor assault that's not really worth getting worked up over, but it's still an assault, and one that he bears complete responsibility for. I just have an issue with people accusing Cindy of being the aggressor here. With admirers like you, who needs haters?

[DWilliamsamh]

215. Here's your problem...

You keep saying he "walked into the bullhorn," or some variation thereof. He didn't. He was standing to her side acting like an asshole. SHE TURNED TOWARD HIM AND PUSHED THE BULLHORN INTO HIS FACE. Granted she didn't have very far to push, because he got uncomfortably close to her. But he didn't touch her or the bullhorn until she turned and put it in his face. She had the right to the ground she was standing on, and he had the right to be a loud obnoxious cursing dick in the space he was standing on. I suppose that you would think it is fine for someone who is doing the old grade school "I'm not touching you" provocation game to have their finger broken by the object of their provocation.

Obviously we will never "see" that part of the video the same way - but I know what I watched. He was to her side. She turned toward him with the bullhorn and shoved it in her face. And honestly - if he had even touched her before that, I would think it was fine for her to brain him with the bullhorn. So take your "rapist" analogy and shove it.

[Downtown Hound]

216. What the hell is she supposed to do?

Put down her bullhorn and politely talk to the asshole that interrupted her speech and is now aggressively invading her space? She had every right to shove that thing right in that fuckwad's face because, HE WALKED RIGHT INTO IT. Yeah she turned to the side, but hey, he waled right up to a woman giving a speech with a bullhorn and screamed at her. What the fuck did he think was going to happen? I'd do the same thing to without a moment's hesitation. How does Cindy know what this man's intentions are? You think she's never gotten death threats? You think she's never had anybody threaten violence against her before? Yeah, Cindy, use that bullhorn. This fucking piece of shit thinks his uniform is going to protect him. Well he's wrong. Good for her for not taking any shit from him or the rest of the dickless fucks that think she has no right to defend herself.

So why don't you take your fascist apologist bullshit and shove it instead?

[DWilliamsamh]

217. SOOOO She DID turn the bull horn on him

What did he expect?

I rest my case, asshole.

P.S. I am cut to the quick that you, mental giant that you are - who speaks of decking anyone with the temerity to loudly, obnoxiously disagree with you from close up - has called me a fascist apologist. It might hurt more if I had any reason at all to think you know what fascist actually means, or if we were discussing anything remotely to do with fascism.

[Downtown Hound]

218. You think that makes your case? LOL.

He walked up to her, end of story.You apparently think she should stay turned away from him, ignore him, put down her bullhorn and engage him. Um, no. He's an aggressor here, interrupting and being threatening with his demeanor. All Cindy did was turn to the side. That's it. If you honestly think that makes her a "screaming jerk off" or that she's invading his space or assaulting him, wow, I've heard some idiotic things on DU in my time here, but that's a whopper. I'd love to see how you handle that same situation. But you'd probably wet your pants instead of showing some gusto like Cindy did here.

You are a clown sir. Like I said, if you are a friend to Cindy or the anti-war movement, then we need no friends like you.

[DWilliamsamh]

219. You spent the entirety of this argument with me...

stating that "he walked into her bullhorn she didn't move toward him".... then you do an about face and say effectively "of course she turned the bullhorn into his face, what did he expect her to do. I would have done worse." You contradiction is a loser. Just like your perception of reality.

Protesters have to be ready to be provoked by people who disagree with them. It is Their JOB to just keep protesting and not engage someone who has done nothing more than scream at them. That is the way non-violent protest works. It is the ONLY way non-violent protest is effective. Study some MLK, and Gandhi while you are at it.

Of course if you are not an advocate of non-violent protest, then I "get" why you assert the violent things you do in the violent language you do it.

And I wasn't disagreeing with her protest or her right to protest. I wasn't disagreeing that the old guy was a jerk off asshole. All I was saying was - Cindy had no leg to stand on when she wondered why he wasn't arrested for assault.

[Downtown Hound]

220. She didn't move toward him

I'm sorry but, she never took a step. She rotated her body 45 degrees and even took a step backwards because some asshole walked right up to her and started screaming at her. Somehow, you think that makes her the aggressor and a screaming jerk off? LOL.

He started it, he got in her face, she did the same thing that probably 99% of all people would do if confronted by the same situation. Did the guy deserve to be arrested for assault? Maybe, maybe not. But I will stand by my earlier statement that if an anti-war protester did that to a veteran in a role reversal, they would almost certainly have been arrested. I've seen them get arrested for much, MUCH less. The law has a tendency to be selective when it comes to leftist protesters. I've witnessed this with my own two eyes many times over.

[DWilliamsamh]

221. OK. Circular agument is not productive.

I think what I think. You think what you think. The twain shall not meet here.

Be well.

[Downtown Hound]

222. Back 'acha.

:hi:

[crazyjoe]

68. really, why wasn't he arrested then? shoving a bullhorn in someones face

is assault.

[MrModerate]

11. Actually, yes, yelling and being a putz is assault. Battery is when you strike someone.

The angry old fuck was guilty of both assault and battery, in that he struck Sheehan and pushed her co-demonstraters around. He should go to jail.

[Hissyspit]

13. Yes, I have been using assault interchangably. My mistake. Thanks for the clarification.

[paulsby]

26. actually, no

it depends on the state.

many states don't HAVE A CRIME CALLED BATTERY

mine doesn't, for example.

there is no such crime in the RCW as "assault and battery"

there is Assault I, Assault II, Assault III and Assault IV

what you think of as battery is Assault IV (simple assault )

an attempted battery, which in many states would be an assault is here "attempt to commit a crime, to wit: assault"

hth

[paulsby]

25. actually no

as usual people ignorant of the law speak

yelling and being a putz is not an assault.

but yes, for those states that have statutes regarding assault and battery, one can have assault without having battery.

my state (and some others) have NO CRIME CALLED 'battery'. as usual, you are speaking from what you saw on some teevee show and think "oh that must be the law". if you knew the law, you would know that battery is not the crime in many states.

and we still have free speech. yelling and being a putz is not an assault.

like i said, was the guy who got in my partner's face and called him a fucking n****r committing an "assault"?

the answer is no, although i am sure some legal minds would argue "fighting words doctrine"

others, who don't even understand that battery doesn't even exist in the penal codes of several states, wouldn;t.

now , in some of those states, battery may be a tort, but that's a different matter

[MrModerate]

37. Being snide is only occasionally a substitute for knowing your ass from a hole in the ground.

The incident took place in California, no? Please see http://www.mycaliforniadefenselawyer.com/criminal-charges/assault-battery/

While one might argue whether the angry old guy met the test of an "attempt, coupled with a present ability, to commit a violent injury on the person of another," arguing is what attorneys are for.

You might want to look up the many definitions of the word "putz." Alternatively, you could look in a mirror.

[me b zola]

28. No, he was not using speech. He was using is body

He was physically intimidating her which caused her to place the megaphone between her and him as he had come up on her--screaming I might add--so close his belly was touching her. His physicality escalated from there.

You may want Cindy to be wrong, but you are not being honest about what the video shows.

[crazyjoe]

67. +1

[defendandprotect]

127. Unfortunately, accosting someone and continuing to move on them isn't free speech . . .

it's being aggressive --

Whether he was drunk or simply a nutcase isn't clear -- but she told him plainly

to "get out of her face."

Had he done that to a male, he would have been forcibly removed -- not simply had

a bullhorn turned towards him.

[AtheistCrusader]

10. If someone screamed in my face with a bullhorn like that

someone would need a new bullhorn.

He went around the bullhorn to yell at her. Classy and smooth? No not at all. But not assault. Cindy turned that bullhorn right into his face, and the center cone APPEARS to have made contact with his face. I say appears, because the video angle is not completely conclusive.

I don't care if he yelled. I don't care if he cursed. Jamming the bullhorn in his face was not acceptable.

Cindy has been through some shit, that's for sure, but these recent 'oh poor me the victim' videos aren't garnering any sympathy from me. Sorry.

[Hissyspit]

12. He put his face in the bullhorn. Watch it again.

Again, at any point he could have backed off.

The point of posting this video was to let people know the protest was occurring and that this incident took place. It was clear to me as I watched it before I posted it that the guy escalated the situation. Cindy may not have handled the situation ideally, but why was he in her face in the first place? He could have communicated with her at any time without appearing physically threatening. This wouldn't be what you call a 'oh poor me the victim' video if he hadn't have done the things HE did.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. No he doesn't. He goes around it. To the right (His left).

He got in her face, for the same motivation that led Cindy to go onto government property to protest.

[me b zola]

30. He got so close his belly was touching her

She was putting distance between her and him without running away. He was physically intimidating her so that she would leave. Sorry, but if you did that to me my bullhorn get get planted up your ass.

[theFrankFactor]

83. Defending this old douchebag is cute and portends the "cute" Left that is taking over this party...

I have no particular love for Cindy's tactics of for Code Pink but the kind of fucking right wingesque pap that "DU-er's" are puking up is a sight to see. Defendin' them free speech rights are ya? Well that's great 'cause I wanna tell you that that fucking corporate boot licking clan that infests the White House and calls its self the Democratic party is a testament to your "fair & balanced" viewpoint.

The nation is filling with more Democrat shit heads everyday. In other words, Liberalism is dying to the onslaught of piss warm democratic "centrism". Nice job!

[zbdent]

92. actually, he does ... right after the point you refer to,

Cindy backs up a bit and puts the bullhorn to his face, but not touching it ... I watched it a couple of times to be sure ...

after she put the bullhorn back up to his face, Cindy doesn't move ... but the old dude PUSHES HIS FACE into the bullhorn (probably to make the claim that she assaulted him with it first ...)

[MrModerate]

14. I'm not a Cindy fan, particularly, but this jerk was assaulting her . . .

Before she turned back to him -- he was trying to muscle her out of the way and was yelling in a very threatening manner. Her turning the bullhorn in his face was a reasonable response. His knocking the bullhorn away and then pushing around the co-demonstrators is what elevates his offense to battery.

Cindy may be an embarassment, but the old guy committed a felonious act.

IMO.

[paulsby]

27. exactly

she made an aggressive move (not to mention one that could blow out your eardrums), THEN he pushed the bullhorn away.

that's entirely reasonable, and is certainly not a "physical assault" as sheehan claims.

clearly, the guy was being aggressive, and a jerk. but when she shoved the bullhorn in his face, he was well within his rights to shove it away.

free speech is good. cindy can speak her mind. so can this guy. in cases where police are managing the demonstration, they can reasonable establish boundaries between two sides. other than that, common sense generally applies. cindy had every right to stand her ground. if the guy pushed or slapped her, he would be wrong. but that's not what happened. he walked up to her and started chirping. then, she (and she clearly knew he was there) swung her bullhorn around and shoved it in his face. whether or not she actually touched his face with it is unclear. however, whether or not she did, he was justified in pushing it away.

[Hissyspit]

29. He didn't push it away. He slammed it away almost into her face.

He's an idiot, an ass, and a bully. She gave him verbal warning to move away from her and he ignored it. He could have moved away from the megaphone. He didn't want to. He wanted to start something. Then he assaulted someone else.

[paulsby]

32. i am talking specifically about the bullhorn incident

and whether he was an idiot, ass, bully, etc. isn't relevant. those are just name calling.

what he did is this. yelled at cindy. then walked up near her and continued yelling at her. note that she had a bullhorn. he didn';t. she swung the bullhorn around to shove it in his face. he slapped it away.

yes, he could have moved away from the megaphone. but he reacted when she shoved it in his face in a REASONABLE way.

that was not, contrary to sheehan's claims, a "physical assault" on her.

i;m not talking about, as is clear, what he did afterwards. i am simply saying sheehan is being a dramatic and nonfactual when she claims he physically assaulted her. and of course conveniently doesn't mention that he pushed the bullhorn away AFTER she swung it in his face.

[Hissyspit]

36. It was clear that she was talking through the bullhorn and would continue to talk through

the bullhorn. If he was concerned with the bullhorn, he should have moved away. He was looking to instigate and he did. It was not reasonable. He hit it HARD, toward her. He then assaulted the other woman. He was mad that Cindy continued talking and would not let him take over the forum.

[go west young man]

77. Rewatch the video.

At 1:57 he is standing in a military "at ease" stance with his legs moving forward. He is clearly attempting to intimidate while covering his ass by looking semi passive by being "at ease". He consistently moves towards her. Watch the lower part of the video and his lower body. He is moving forward consistently. She is surprised by his aggressiveness and swings the bullhorn directly into his face. He continues to yell into the bullhorn directly and then strikes at it screaming get that fucking bullhorn out of my face. At no time does Cindy move aggressively toward him. She does swing the bullhorn directly into his face. I think a reasonable judge can easily see he was attempting to intimidate her. He then overreacted to the bullhorn being swung in his face.

[paulsby]

90. i have

rewatched it several times. fwiw, the "clearly attempting to intimidate" may be clear in YOUR mind, but it certainly is not ... in mine. the fact that he assumes aforementioned "at ease" stance is in his favor in this regards. he is not bladed, his fists are not up, etc. a reasonable judge would, like a reasonable cop, think this is a ridiculous complaint by sheehan and conclude that she needs to grow up and not try to make police complaints for such ridiculous de minimus "offenses" especially when she is arguably or more so at fault than the person she is complaining about. this is a petty squabble at that point, not a crime. to waste an officer's time, let alone a court's time for such a silly squabble. we can sit here and parse six degrees of culpability in regards to him (getting up close and yelling at her) or her (swinging the bullhorn into his face) etc. but it's ridiculous, as is sheehan in making a complaint of "physical assault".

there is no such crime as "attempt to intimidate". various states have criminal threats statutes, which must meet constitutional scrutiny, and i can state with 100% certainty that this guy didn't come CLOSE. here's a hint. when you get engaged in controversial speech, as cindy has, you should expect to get a response - a VERBAL response, which is what she got. switch roles. pretend the person with the bullhorn was the "authoritah figure" and the protester was the one who was yelling, with the hands behind the back and approached. then, the authoritah figure swings the bullhorn into the protestors face and keeps on chirpin'. so, the protestor bats it out of his face.

same conclusion. it's a petty squabble, cindy shouldn't have shoved the bullhorn in the guys face, and it CERTAINLY is not a matter for the police, except to seperate the two and tell them to grow the fuck up. and it is DEFINITELY not a matter for the courts.

i've testified and investigated scores of assault cases (up to and including murder). i have never seen such a petty , ridiculous "assault" make it into a criminal courtroom

[sabrina 1]

97. If the situation had been reversed, Cindy would have been

arrested. Stop wasting people's time. She has been arrested for wearing the wrong tee shirt. And held overnight and roughed up by the cops for far less than this jerk just did to her.

But no matter what anyone does to her, or says, no one can return her son to her, lost forever because of a lying, corrupt government who care nothing for the people they send to fight their oil wars.

She deserves every respect for not sitting behind her computer wasting everyone's time as you are doing, on the minutiae of whether some rightwingnut had a right to be an asshole or not.

What are YOU doing to make sure no one else dies as her son did, for the benefit of war profiteers, other than rambling on about silly nonsense while ignoring, probably on purpose, the reason why she was there in the first place?

[AlbertCat]

138. there is no such crime as "attempt to intimidate".

Actually....

Assault & Battery:

Two separate offenses against the person that when used in one expression may be defined as any unlawful and unpermitted touching of another. Assault is an act that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent, harmful, or offensive contact. The act consists of a threat of harm accompanied by an apparent, present ability to carry out the threat. Battery is a harmful or offensive touching of another



Seems clear to me he may be at least guilty of assault before the bull horn even comes into play. Battery is when he hits the bull horn.

He throughout has the option of shutting up and going away. And as far as his "free speech" is concerned (how many time must it be repeated???) The 1st Amendment only says GOVERNMENT can make no LAWS abridging free speech.

[John Q. Citizen]

160. I figure that it's folks like yourself that are responsible for the low confidence most Americans

have in the criminal justice system.

You seem to think assault is fine as long as it's happening to Cindy Sheehan.

But let code pick touch Condi Rice with fake blood hands and then it's assault.



I'm not buying that double standard hypocritical BS.

Yes, we know that LEO enforce laws based on the social economic status of the victim and the perp and on a political basis.

We know that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings.
Steal a little bit of money they put you in jail,
Steal a lot and they make you king.

and for you to find nothing wrong with that speak volumes.

[defendandprotect]

128. What about if someone accosted you as this nut case accosts Cindy -- ???

Would you have run off -- or would you have told him what she told him . . .

"Get out of my face!"

The original aggression and the continuing aggression was with the nut in uniform -

and his intentions are clear as he goes on to push and shove a number of the women a

number of times.

Had he behaved this way with moving in on a male his size, he would have very quickly been

physically moved away.

Also note that the military police move the NUT away -- not the women.

At that point he is still trying to push and shove them and hit them!

[AtheistCrusader]

144. Chances are it would escalate.

But that's just me. And a failing of my personality. I don't take the violation of my personal space lightly. Then again, I wouldn't choose such an inappropriate venue for any political protest activity. I tend to take things straight to the people responsible.

Old nut or no, he has as much right to get loud and scream his opinion there, as Cindy does. Both got physical. As far as I can tell from the video, cindy made first contact. Sorry. The video is, what it is.

Edit: By the way, gender doesn't figure into it. At least not to me.

[defendandprotect]

149. It wouldn't be a "failing of your personality" . . . it would be self-defense . . .

You're also not someone who is out there protesting regularly and well known.

More dangerous for them than just bystanders like us.

Why do you mean re the military base being an "inappropriate venue for any political protest
activity" --

It seems quite apropos -- after all we are protesting the MIC are we not?

Corporate control of military?

The first aggression is made by the old man -- not by Cindy.

And, as you mention above, had he done that to you

Chances are it would escalate.

But that's just me. And a failing of my personality. I don't take the violation of my personal space lightly.

Additionally, the NUT was also pulled from other women he was pushing and shoving and trying to

hit -- by the military police.

I think your own quote makes quite clear that Cindy probably under reacted --

This NUT certainly had no problem with the concept of abusing women -- !!

Quite a war hero!

[John Q. Citizen]

162. Oh, i get it. You think that protestors get what they deserve, like when MLK had the dogs unleashed

on them. I mean, it wasn't the poor citizens of Mobile's fault that there is inequality and injustice. Right?

So this has, in your opinion, nothing to do with legal or illegal, criminal or not.


It's about those pesky protesters getting what they deserve.


Why are you here? If you want to denigrate the bill of rights there is a lot better places to do it than here.

[AtheistCrusader]

173. What tripe.

MLK was attacked by the Government. That's a whole different issue than, what I understand to be a retired vet ambling over and getting into a shouting match. Don't denigrate what Dr. King went through by comparing it to this incident. There is NO basis for comparison.

I fully support Cindy's troop raising hell at the capitol, at local senatorial offices, and the White House. These are places where such a protest can make a difference. They get in the face of people who can MAKE decisions about this. They catch the people RESPONSIBLE on film, denying, lying, and shirking public pressure. There is not a single damn person in that military base with the legal authority to de-escalate this war. Not one. Zero. They are sworn to carry out their orders, when said orders are lawful. Obama's orders, and the related orders from the Joint Chiefs on down are currently lawful, unless you know something I don't. Cindy Sheehan is basically exhorting people to become criminals, not just a trespassing charge, or disorderly conduct, but serious felonies and time in MILITARY prison for disobeying orders at a time of war. These are not the people. This was not the place. She shouldn't BE protesting there. It has no productive result. It's USELESS. Note I'm not saying she CAN'T protest here. I'm saying she should know better.

And Mr. Grumpy Vet with bad manners has just as much right to tromp over and yell. He has the freedom of speech too, while you're whining about the Bill of Rights. We'll have to agree to disagree on who initiated physical contact. I am apparently seeing something different than some posters. I would like to point out, I am not the only one who sees something different.


If I met Cindy Sheehan in person, I would thank her for most of what she is doing. It IS helpful. But I would not thank her for this incident. It was the wrong thing to do, in my opinion.

[bkozumplik]

98. oh please

Putting a bullhorn in someones face while its on is dangerous. You could easily rupture someone's eardrum. Sheehan should know better. At that point the stupid douchebag repub vet guy was just defending himself.

I think Sheehan is great, but this is a fail, and she should let it go. I imagine scuffles happen at protests, and she's no 'innocent' here. Her actions were part of the problem.

This is exactly what any judge will say if she pursues it.

[Chulanowa]

164. Watch it some more

She jams it against his face, and he knocks it aside. One of the other protesters then gets in HIS face, acting in a threatening, belligerent manner, and he pushes her away. She shoves him back, and it goes from there.

The old fart isn't a shining saint, but Cindy is definitely full of shit on this one.

[Why Syzygy]

16. He started the aggression.

She did not turn the bullhorn on an innocent bystander as you would have readers believe.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. He assaulted her

You need to watch the video again.

[valerief]

75. Your post is the biggest load of baloney I've seen all day. Cindy didn't assault him. He assaulted

her.

[sailor65]

78. +1000

You beat me to it.

It's interesting how they cut the video when the cop starts explaining the situation to her.

[Divine Discontent]

142. nonetheless - the menacing older Vet was trying to provoke an incident by moving his body

directly up against her where he knew she had an object that would put it right near his face if he got any closer.


He was wrong and menacing with his behavior. He deserved disorderly conduct.

[lumpy]

89. And you prove time and again that you are "full of it".

nt

[sabrina 1]

96. Why do you pretend tp 'respect Cindy'?

It's clear you don't, which you don't have to of course, but pretending to just diminishes your credibility.

She was assaulted, that is all that matters and your attempt to defend the assault is laughable. If the situation were reversed, I am willing to bet your opinion would be entirely different. Just do us all a favor though and stop pretending to be something you are not.

[dred654321]

109. I watched the video

He assaulted her. Putting her megaphone up is not assault. He could have backed away. He chose to assault her.

[defendandprotect]

130. And then the NUT proceeded to attack at least two other women...making his intentions clear!!

[MichaelHarris]

111. dang

paulsby I have to agree with you on this one.

[Divine Discontent]

140. you're 100% wrong

the guy with the opposing view should not have approached her body so closely so that he was within just 2 feet of her with the object he knew she was holding outwardly.

He was menacing, and asking for a fight.

Plain and simple.

I'm sorry you fail to see that.

Best to you, regardless.

[Supply Side Jesus]

5. Assault?

Slapping a bullhorn away is NOT assault. Sorry.

If anything I would charge BOTH with harassment. The old fella got up to Cindy and she pointed the bullhorn point blank in his face. In fact the bullhorn made contact with his face. BOTH parties could have disengaged, but neither did. Both are guilty of felony grandstanding. :)

[Hissyspit]

7. Yes, he could have backed away. But he didn't. Instead he continued to assault her and others.

I wouldn't press charges. I don't think Cindy should, but I'm not her.

[me b zola]

34. I think that for her safety she should press charges

There are a lot of lunatics out there getting just as riled up as this guy was. They will feel emboldened if this guy gets away with it.

[Hissyspit]

17. I don't understand why people don't see that the bigger issue here is that once again

the pro-war 'you hate the troops' person couldn't counter Cindy's message without resorting to violent threat and confrontation.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. Look at it from another perspective.

She's putting this in the face of people who have no legal option, but to obey orders.

If Sheehan wants to do a productive protest against people who can actually do something about it, she needs to be patrolling the halls of congress, and sitting in front of the white house. Nothing else will do. Any soldier refusing to go, has no legal grounds, and will suffer greatly to no purpose.

The best she can do, in that location, is hurt the morale of the troops. They don't deserve that. They have no choice but to go.

[MrModerate]

20. Naaah, I can't agree

For one thing, we have a volunteer military. These folks agreed to follow lawful orders when they joined up. Treating them as helpless victims doesn't do justice to the difficult (and sometimes heroic) choices they've made.

Secondly, limiting protest to Congress and the White House is unAmerican and unrealistic. Sheehan has the right to protest wherever it's legal to do so (which happily is most everywhere in the country). While I think many people are ambivalent about the justice of designating "free speech zones," she was nevertheless on her way to an approved protest area under the direction of base security when she was accosted.

And while no one has the right to assault individual members of the military (like the angry old guy felt had happened to him post-Vietnam), neither does anyone have the right to quash dissent that's directed at military institutions that are supported by the American government. In fact, protest at military institutions -- when carried out with a modicum of respect -- is among the least rights we can demand from our system of government. Asking military people to think about the choices they've made in participating in (as Sheehan sees it) unjust wars is part of the deal. "Supporting the troops" doesn't mean wrapping them in cotton wool lest they find out that many Americans believe their mission to be foolish and wrong.

Ultimately, protesting against sacrifices troops shouldn't be asked to make is also supporting them.

[AtheistCrusader]

69. Exactly.

"For one thing, we have a volunteer military. These folks agreed to follow lawful orders when they joined up. Treating them as helpless victims doesn't do justice to the difficult (and sometimes heroic) choices they've made."

They ARE following lawful orders. There is no recourse. None of the people on that base have any authority to change course, or opt out. They MUST go. Only in the White House, and Congress will you find people with the power to change what is going on.

"Asking military people to think about the choices they've made in participating in (as Sheehan sees it) unjust wars is part of the deal."

They have no choice. Until their term of service is up (which can be arbitrarily extended in most cases, without their consent, see 'stop loss') they have zero choices. Obama's orders are perfectly legal. The war is perfectly legal. Unjust or not, it is legal.

[defendandprotect]

113. They will never have the right to conscience if they don't fight for it .. . and ...

the first part of that is waking up -- which Cindy is encouraging them to do!

[AtheistCrusader]

174. They will go to jail.

Not just any jail, miltiary prison. Leavenworth is no club med. Yeah, it might eventually be overturned. In the meantime, life's gonna suck.

They have an obligation to carry out even orders that they object to personally. I'm sorry, but that's what they signed up for, and the oath they swore. The only recourse is if the orders they are given are actually illegal. Unless you can point to something I'm not aware of, my understanding is, the orders from our Commander In Chief are totally legal.

There is no moral failing on their part for going, for obeying orders. The failure is ours, for not changing the direction of our elected officals. Our failure for not bringing this war to an end. We're letting it continue. All of us. Cindy Sheehan has done more than most, much more than I, to end it. But this incident didn't do squat. It did not help. In fact, based on the responses of some people in this thread, I think it may have been totally counter-productive.

Our soldiers are depending on US, all of US to do the right thing. It is unfair and immoral (in my opinon) to make them do it for us.

[Hissyspit]

21. This guy isn't going to Afghanistan any time soon.

And plenty of stuff is hurting the morale of the troops, and it isn't Cindy Sheehan.

Cindy has been in D.C. recently, by the way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. Cindy does patrol the halls of Congress

And she's probably spent more time doing that than all of those speaking out against her in this thread.

[AtheistCrusader]

82. For her work in Washington DC, I thank her.

For this, I just shake my head.

I will not forget all the work she has put in, but incidents like this make me question her judgment. Both parties behaved uncivil. On top of that, this particular protest seems unproductive to me.

Edit: Tell you what, today I'll put my money where my mouth is too. Normally I don't do this sort of thing, but today I will go harrass both my senators about an exit strategy to Afghanistan. (Murray and Cantwell) So in that way, I suppose this protest served some purpose, but I would prefer if they were doing something in DC instead. There, something can actually be done.

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. Thank you for calling your senators

You're right. Cindy's action yesterday did indeed accomplish something. :patriot:

[sailor65]

80. Nicely said

Those who have never taken the oath have a hard time understanding this.

[RaleighNCDUer]

101. Of course they have a choice.

What is it up to now? 26,000 desertions? Those are people who made a choice NOT to go to war.

[AtheistCrusader]

103. Becoming a felon isn't much of a 'choice'.

That's 26,000 people, and counting, that are going to be fucked up for the rest of their lives, if they stay in the US.

[defendandprotect]

115. Thank you -- and I think we have to note those 26,000 desertions were "volunteers" . . .

not people who were drafted -- but people who decided to join the military.

I'm not saying that this is an easy road!!!

It must be a frightening decision to defy the US government/military -- but the

havoc and insanity and illegality and immorality of these wars can't be too far

from any soldier's mind.

[defendandprotect]

131. Excellent point . . . and his intentions are clear when he pushes two other women . . .

in fact, when the military police come they move HIM away from the women who he is

still trying to push, shove and hit!

[Buzz Clik]

41. "Both are guilty of felony grandstanding." Absolutely.

[valerief]

76. He threatened her. He assaulted her. She told him to go away. He didn't. nt

[winyanstaz]

19. Don't worry Cindy...we have eyes and we saw the old fart attacking you.

He should go to jail for assault and battery as well as for being a terrorist.
I don't care if you have served...it does NOT give you a right to assault your fellow Americans.
A lot of us that are protesting the wars are also military and military families.
War is NEVER "alright". A wars based on lies are even more wrong.

[20score]

22. Cindy Sheehan should be regarded as a hero. Especially here. She has done more good and

shown more courage than a thousand average people.

And as an Air Force vet myself, that guy's stupidity is embarrassing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. +1

[defendandprotect]

132. +2

:)

[MSchreader]

23. I would seriously be careful about this one

At 2:03 in the video, as the rightwing idiot is rocking back and forth on his feet (sorta waddling in place) and screaming like a moran, Cindy aims the bullhorn directly at his head and, less than six inches from his face, says in a loud voice, "Get out of my face!"

As someone who has used bullhorns to yell at people, not simply direct a crowd, I can tell you that the decibel level she just unleashed on that guy would be regarded as an assault, and possibly even battery, if it is determined that the level was high enough to cause damage to his ear.

Honestly, as much as that guy was being a complete ass in interrupting her and playing little Patton (and should be arrested for his attack on the other two Code Pink members), she was wrong to aim that bullhorn at him intentionally and keep it in his face, and could, in theory, face charges herself for assault.

I would be careful about screaming too loudly about this. It could end up being a disaster.

[me b zola]

35. Did she walk up to that guy and put the bullhorn in his face?

~or did he walk up on her, attempting to move her with his body.

How did the two become so physically close to begin with?

[MSchreader]

47. He walked up to her

But there was still a couple feet between them. I didn't see him get close enough to be able to physically move her with his body, and I made sure to watch the video several times. She still had enough room to swing around 90 degrees with the bullhorn up to her mouth, so I would not argue that he violated her personal space.

[me b zola]

81. Watch again.

He walked up on her, put his own face in the bullhorn, then stepped around it to get so close to Cindy it looks as though his belly is touching her. That's when she places the bullhorn between them.

[defendandprotect]

117. Nut walked up to her and kept moving on her -- as she told him "get out of my face" . . .

And, are you forgetting that he followed this up by PUSHING TWO OTHER WOMEN???

One who wants to file charges?

[MSchreader]

201. No, I'm not forgetting that he pushed the other two CodePink members

I mentioned that twice already. And, yes, he should be charged for that. It was uncalled for, out of line, inexcusable, dishonorable, misogynistic and just plain stupid.

[RaleighNCDUer]

102. She did not touch him, or anything he was carrying.

He DID touch her and the bullhorn she had in her hands. That's assault.

[defendandprotect]

116. Cinddy''s reaction was in self-defense -- as she notes "get out of my face" . . .

Cindy was being accosted by this guy and and she was defending herself -- period.

[MSchreader]

200. Let me put it this way

I tend to be more sympathetic and supportive of Cindy Sheehan than most people, and I think she made a mistake here. How do you think a local judge, most likely elected by the folks on and around that military base, will look at it?

You can be the uncritical cheerleader. I'll be the one warning you about getting hurt while jumping too close to the bleachers.

[zoff]

38. The man was a big bully, plain and simple.

There are legal and ethical lines. While he had every right to exercise his free (stupid) speech, his bullyesque, it-takes-one-of-me, in-your-face attitude was definitely unethical. With a bullhorn in his face, the man is obtuse. "Killing is right and proper?" Only in his selfish, right-wing, war-loving, killing-the-innocents little mind.

[Buzz Clik]

42. yada yada yada. And Code Pink is not "in your face"?

This is getting old and tired.

[zoff]

43. I'm glad you agree with everything else I've said.

[Buzz Clik]

44. I agreed with nothing you said.

[liberation]

46. Woooooossssshhhhhhhhh... there was the point flying at supersonic speeds over your head

LOL


No wonder this place is circling the toilet with the likes of you... God forbid your beautiful mind would be bothered with the actions of people trying to stop a senseless war. I know those hundreds of thousands of people who died, got maimed or disappeared during the past 8 years of war and hubris had it bad... but obviously nothing compares to the "suffering and pain" that you have to endure every time you have to ignore a piece of news regarding anti-war protestors. Lord only knows the pain of losing those 5 seconds out of your precious life every year. The horror... the horror...

[Buzz Clik]

54. Never missing the opportunity to cast an insult.

It's a problem. Get past it.

[dred654321]

157. Ive yet to see a democratic thought in any one of your posts

[MNBrewer]

107. What's getting old and tired?

The war, or people like you who put up with it for fear of getting in someone's face about ending it?

[defendandprotect]

119. The "in your face" of citizens fighting the MIC complex . . .

Rather easier to be on the side of power --

Rice is a war criminal -- and some day we will hopefully see her on trial.

[Buzz Clik]

40. I'm not impressed.

This never ending cycle of confrontation for the sake of confrontation is nauseating.

[liberation]

50. Yeah other than 2 illegal wars, hundreds of thousands of innocent victims, thousands of US soldiers

dead, billions of dollars wasted, an irreparable damage to our image and what we stand for as a country, etc, etc... Yeah other than just "that," confrontation for the shake of confrontation indeed.

[Buzz Clik]

55. I hate both wars, and she bugs the shit out of me. What's her impact on those who support the wars?

Negative impact. She is a detriment, not a help.

Ditto Code Pink.

[pundaint]

88. Here must be Obamas plan for the '12 campaign.

Cindy pissed me off so I escalated in afghanistan.

[Raineyb]

155. Well she should have a negative impact on those who support the wars

Those who support them ought to have someone nagging at their conscience. I hope she makes them miserable.

[Buzz Clik]

186. Cindy Sheehan is our very own Joe the Plumber.

The poster child for ridiculous behavior.

Code Pink is her current vehicle. I find them both embarrassing and an unnecessary distraction.

[Webster Green]

167. Bullshit!

Protests ended the Vietnam war.

You would no doubt pee in your pants if you tried to spend a day with Code Pink. :rofl:

[Buzz Clik]

185. I don't hang with grandstanding assholes. We'll never know.

[Webster Green]

191. Wow! You're a real fucking dick-head, aren't you.

No compassion. No empathy for this poor woman who lost her son to the chimp's and the BIG DICK'S needless invasion and occupation.

You suck pal! :wtf:

[Echo In Light]

48. K&R for Cindy. Amazing how she so enrages RWers!

[Divine Discontent]

143. and an element of folks on this board, also! it's BS that anyone cannot see the elder vet was

menacing in his behavior and trying to threaten by getting so close, as to intimidate. He knew that bullhorn would be inches from his face, but kept getting closer...


I'd have had a hard time not just knocking it over his cranky war loving head! Praise be for Cindy! She showed restraint.

[SlingBlade]

49. "It doesn't get any easier but ......

life isn't easy and I'm never going to stop -- no matter how much we're oppressed, no matter how much violence they bring to us, we're going to bring peace to them." -- Cindy Sheehan, Travis Air Force Base, Saturday, November 28th, 2009

"Killing is right and proper"
Old Wingnut, Travis Air Force Base, Saturday, November 28th, 2009

And THAT my friends, sez it all
You don't DEAL with people like this, You confront them !

[tsuki]

51. This is the same tactic they used 40 years ago. I am surprised that

they are not using it more often.

Rushing a woman, stepping into her space, looming over her, yelling obscenities is a threat of physical abuse for a gender that has been beaten and demonized for centuries.

We were told to always assume that the person before us either capable or did use physical violence on his mother, sisters, wife or children.

We were also told that the police would not see it that way (before Sleeping With the Enemy came out).

We were instructed to grab the closest, largest male and insert them between us and the assaulter. We were also told not to walk to our car alone if we were confronted.

In my case, when I was assaulted, a VietNam Vet inserted himself, and the guy turned tail and ran.

The guys in the group began to understand how it was different for women protestors, no police protection and constant ridicule and threats from the males.

Kinda like what I have been reading here.

[defendandprotect]

120. An aggressive male pushing himself on her .... she was correct to react ...

[Name removed]

53. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[winyanstaz]

86. There is something fundimentally sick about people that justify

violence.
Cindy was right..that old fart was wrong...and those saying he had a right to scare the pants off those ladies are sick too.

[defendandprotect]

133. Actually, the nut in the uniform was pushing and shoving the women . . .

making his original intentions quite clear!

In fact, later in the video as the military police come, they remove HIM away from

the women he is still trying to push, shove and hit!!

[winyanstaz]

158. exactly..he needs to go to anger management and to court....

I don't care who does it..assault is assault even if you have a chest full of medals.
This guy makes the military look very bad and as I am a War widow I hate that as well.
Hiding behind your service to attack women is a chickenshit thing to do.

[h9socialist]

56. Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel

. . . and the combination of "teabaggers" and militant pro-war goobers, creates fertile ground for neofascism. All they need now is to start having book burnings.

[20score]

57. Wow. Some of the comments here are pretty disgusting.

Some of you would make Beck proud.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. Cindy bashing is a hobby for some DUers

[defendandprotect]

121. A few of the "usuals" . . .

[guruoo]

59. Brings back memories of recess at the kindergarten.

[KansDem]

62. Man, it's Vietnam all over again!

It's the old "if you protest the war then you are demoralizing the troops" argument.

I thought that canard died in the mid-1970s!

[defendandprotect]

134. Obviously, he's still trying to fight the VN war . . .. so he has brain paralysis . .. .

and will never learn anything --

especially re the "Bright Shining Lie of Vietnam" --

[midnight]

65. Just end this fighting and bring the troops home. Thanks Cindy.....

[Haole Girl]

66. That's so sad

This country is more divided than ever. So much pain... so much waste.

:cry:

[Norwood]

70. I'm not a fan of Cindy Sheehan but this guy was a fucking douchebag

He kept on walking closer and closer to her, to me it looked like she had the bullhorn there to keep some space between them. The dumb shit walked into it and he woulda been right in her face if the bull horn wasn't there.

That said I'm not sure if it qualifies as assault, but the guy was a real fucking prick.

[Joey Liberal]

71. The old Tea Bagger deserved to get slammed.

He didn't even wear the uniform correctly.

[Crowman1979]

94. Added with the excessive amount of badges he has on!

When was the last time you saw someone from USAF pararescue wear that many badges?

[defendandprotect]

136. On the occasions when they accost, push, shove and try to hit women -- ??

[Tejas]

72. When you lie down with dogs..........

With friends like Code Pink, who needs enemies?


Jon Stewart
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-10-2008/marines-in-berkeley



3:18 = priceless

Code Pink zombie - "It's very important to protect free speech..."

undercover Marine "If only there was an organization that was sworn to defend that free speech..."

Code Pink zombie - "wouldn't that be great."

undercover Marine "that would be outstanding."



:rofl:

[JoeyT]

74. From what I could tell

He walked up and was yelling at her, then she yelled at him through a megaphone.
The fact that he walked up to her doesn't make him guilty of assault, nor does it excuse her yelling into his face through a megaphone.
If someone walks up to you yelling and you punch them, I promise you they aren't going to be the one to get arrested.

According to California law(That I could find on short notice on the internets): Simple assault is an unlawful attempt, coupled with a present ability, to commit a violent injury on the person of another.
The key words in there are "violent injury" and "unlawful attempt". Had she been yelling and he walked in front of the megaphone and slammed it into her face, then he'd be guilty of simple assault. He was yelling beside her and she turned it to face him. It's a slight difference, but cases are built on slight differences. At that point he was defending himself. Especially since he pushed it to the side, which didn't cause her any harm. Had he driven it into her face, it's still possible he'd be charged with some form of assault or another, especially if she was injured.

Some of the reactions to this are utterly hilarious, though. "Yelling at someone is assault!" No, yelling is pretty much freedom of speech. Being a jackass isn't illegal. If yelling is assault, what's yelling at someone through a megaphone? Assault with a deadly weapon? ;)

The worst that could've come from this charges-wise would be everyone being charged with disturbing the peace or some similar charge.

Remember: Freedom of speech belongs to everyone, not just the people we agree with. (And I do agree with their ideals.)

[Hissyspit]

85. He hit and shoved women multiple times.

He disgraced the uniform.

[JoeyT]

118. I didn't see that far in

I only watched up to the point with the megaphone bit, since that's what everyone seemed so upset about.

Edited to add: He might have assaulted the other women, I won't argue that since I didn't watch that far in. (Stupid limited satellite bandwidth.)

[defendandprotect]

137. It's there . . . he is pushing and shoving the women . . .

and it looks like trying to hit them --

The military police move him away from the women and he is still trying to go at them.

One of the women said she wanted to press charges against him --

[mbperrin]

91. Here's the difference between assault and battery.

http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/violent_crimes/assault_battery.htm

What is the difference between assault and battery?

Assault is the threat of bodily harm that reasonably causes fear of harm in the victim. Battery is the actual physical impact on another person. If the victim has been touched in a painful, harmful, violent, or offensive way by the person committing the crime, this might be battery. If the victim has not actually been touched, but only threatened or attempted, then the crime is assault. Consider the act of spitting in someone's face. This is not painful, violent,or harmful, but it is certainly offensive and there is an impact, a touching, so this would be a battery.



No use wondering if this is ever enforced, because I was arrested as a 17 year old for assault for mowing a lawn too early in the morning to suit the neighbor (8 am). Paid a fine, and $68 was nearly a week's wages in 1970.



Plus, when he shoulders Sheehan early in the confrontation, why doesn't that count? After he pushes her shoulder with his, she turns and the bullhorn contacts his face.

He's out of uniform, btw. Look at that tie.

AND do we have any evidence that he is who he says he is? We KNOW that the Sheehan child died in service.

[JoeyT]

126. Assault and battery are defined differently in different states.

I'm not from California so I had to Google the laws and what I listed I got from a defense lawyer website. This is probably a better source: http://www.shouselaw.com/battery.html

According to that California law seems to define battery as injuring someone and assault as trying to injure them. So they'd have to prove he was trying to injure her by shoving a megaphone into another direction.

I don't think the guy was in the right at all, but I don't think he warranted arrest. At least for the thing with Cindy. I didn't watch any further in than the megaphone tussle, since that's what everyone was angry about.

[defendandprotect]

123. Notice that the military police MOVED the man away from the women he was shoving . . .

who missed that?

[sailor65]

79. I wonder if Sheehan has the slightest idea

how many Casey Sheehans are saved every day because of the existence of the Predator.

[booley]

84. Gonna guess none

since we don't use drones here.

However as we have had civilian deaths because of the drones, I wonder how many cindy sheehans have been killed because of the predator.

Plus free speech doesn't work that way. She doesn't have to shut up because of some hypothetical scenario designed to make her look "ungrateful" to a war she opposes.

[G Gordon Libby]

93. Maybe they save...

...some women over there from getting buried up to their necks and stoned to death on some phony charges, then, or some teenaged boys getting tortured for being suspected of being gay, etc. Would that be acceptable to you?

[sabrina 1]

104. No they don't. You must not have kept up what has happened

to the women of Afghanistan since the US invaded their country. Especially since the US gives financial and other support to some of the most abusive criminals against women in that sad country.

Drones are responsible for the killing of countless women and children and the women of Afghanistan have asked the US to withdraw their troops as they have only made life far worse for them.

There is simply no excuse for what this country has done to innocent civilians in both Iraq and Afghaninstan and attempting to justify it by making false claims such as 'we are helping them', is disgraceful, as it demonstrates the willful ignorance of war supporters to what the facts actually are.

[defendandprotect]

139. Thank you for relating all of that stuff we rarely hear about or discuss . . .

Evidently, killing innocent people who aren't Americans doesn't count!!

These are immoral and illegal wars -- but simply about making money for MIC and

imperialists --

:)

[sailor65]

203. Where did I say she should shut up?

She should certainly continue protesting the war, and perhaps help get it ended sooner. But until the war ends, it's stupid to protest the use of the Predator to support troops that don't want to be there in the first place, but carry out their duties which are already hazardous enough.

[MNBrewer]

108. Do you?

I thought not.

[sailor65]

202. What first comes to mind

is the 75th Ranger regiment rescued by one back in '02.

No, I don't have a specific number. To ask for one is to deliberately miss the point. The point was that the Predator is used very often as a forward recon unit, and every time that happens, a human team does not have to fill that role. The Predator is used much more often as an observation platform than a strike platform.

Every single soldier who doesn't get exposed because of a Predator that can go in and look instead is a potential Casey Sheehan NOT killed.

As to Sheehan, my problem was specifically that she's protesting the Predator, when she clearly doesn't understand its primary mission. I don't have any issues with her protesting the war.

On edit: BTW, asking the questin "Do you?" and then answering it "Thought Not" within the same post makes you look rather silly. Or did you think I had a wayback machine to answer your question while you were posing it?

[MNBrewer]

213. Now it's your turn to have missed the point

Nobody has any idea how many people's lives have been "saved" by the use of the Predator because that's a question without an answer. You posed the question whether Cindy Sheehan has any idea of that number, when NOBODY can know.

[sailor65]

214. You have a good semantic point.

Often, the expression I used "....any idea how many" is taken as a non-quantified question, despite wording to the contrary.

I should have said "Sheehan ought to realize that Predators save lives every day....." to make that point.

I stand corrected.

Peace

[Dollface]

95. That was incredibly sad. Here we have 2 people suffering from war. Cindy lost her son. The old guy

survived Viet Nam. He likely was treated horribly when he returned home and feels that pain again. He can't distinguish between the past, when we stupidly blamed soldiers, and the present when we rightly blame politicians. They both bear the pain and scars of war.

[defendandprotect]

141. I never knew anyone who blamed a soldier for Vietnam . . .

individuals and certainly NOT individual soldiers had nothing to do with it --

had they been able to, we all understood they'd walk away.

Those responsible for VN are the same people who have given us Afghanistan and Iraq --

and 9/11 btw -- MIHOP.

[Joanne98]

99. Those cops should be fired for that!

[Jakes Progress]

105. Following this thread it seems

that we have a lot of DU'ers who are glad that a Democrat is in the Oval so that they can support war. Of course, when bush was sending troops they had to dislike it. Now they get to pretend the war is like an action movie and cheer it on.

Old fart stuck his face in the bull horn. He was there to create a problem. He got his way.

[DWilliamsamh]

122. Some military action is unsupportable while some is understandable

An nuanced view of the world with out flat inflexible statements used to be the way liberals looked at the world. Actions that aren't justified in one instance (invading Iraq) may be justified in another (invading Afghanistan).


I don't agree with Sending more troops to Afghanistan...but not because "all war is wrong." I believe we have no legit partner there and haven't had for years. The recent elections just made that concrete and beyond dispute. That being said I don't think we should with draw from Afghanistan until we capture or kill Osama Bin Laden. Period. Afghanistan is an escape rout that should not be made available by our withdrawal. I am for a laser like focus on Bin Laden. The last president failed to maintain that focus; this one shouldn't. Does that make me "pro-war?"

[John Q. Citizen]

153. Bin Laudin? You would willingly kill thousands of innocents for revenge?

What if you find out he's already dead?

Gee too bad huh.


It's thinking like you display that creates the Bin Ladins of the world. Your thought process is faulty, IMHO.

How will you capture or kill Bin Ladin without more troops? The country isn't under our control, or haven't you bothered to notice that fact?

Or are you saying we should just let our men and women keep being maimed and killed so you feel better about bin Ladin?

Why aren't you over there looking for bin Ladin, by the way? Since it means so much to you and all?

[DWilliamsamh]

178. Nice straw man... OF COURSE if Bin Laden is dead....

We should withdraw immediately and leave Afghanistan to it's own devices. Nothing in what I said agues anything like "lets kill a bunch of innocent people going after Bin Laden and if it turns out he was dead all along, too bad." F your straw man.

Going after Bin Laden is not a mere act of revenge - any more than pursuing any murderer. It is called the pursuit of justice. This one just happened to kill 3700 People in one day. So should we ignore him just because he hides? Because he is difficult to capture? Because he hides among innocents (if he in fact is hiding among innocents - I highly doubt that as it would be a threat to his OWN security).

Last time I check we don't say "ahhh forget finding that guy we know murdered these people - he lives in a bad neighborhood and is hard to find...and there is a chance someone might get hurt capturing him. Justice for the dead and society isn't worth it."

[Jakes Progress]

192. Stop calling legitimate questions straw men.

The question if very pertinent to the discussion here. You said the reason the continue the war was to "get" bin laden. The question was whether you thought any and all collateral damage was acceptable in order to achieve that end. Just how is that a straw man?

Getting bin laden is a good goal. The discussion is whether 100,000 American troops being shot at and killed and the probable slaughter of thousands of Afghan citizens is the best way to go about this. You want justice for the dead in the towers, but what justice is there killing another 3,700 who had nothing to do with that atrocity?

[DWilliamsamh]

205. The straw man was "what if you find out Bin Laden is dead.....?"

That was what I was calling you out on.....

And I answered the "what is worth getting him" question in my post. Ignoring what I wrote in answer to you, doesn't mean I didn't. My answer is, pursuing justice, pursuing the perpetrator who murdered 3700+ people, is not subject to those kinds of calculations. OF COURSE I don't want to see innocent people killed in that pursuit - which is why I said I was against the generalized troop increase the President is implementing, and would rather see a draw down to the force necessary to pinch and eventually capture or kill Bin Laden. You just aren't "listening."

[Jakes Progress]

208. I'm not the one who isn't "listening"

You couldn't "call me out" on that question because I didn't ask it. Please check the threads you refer to. And John's question is not a straw man. It follows directly on your post. Please look up the meaning of the term.

And as for my not "listening" to your answer about what is the acceptable cost for "getting" bin laden, I was just trying to clarify your very evasive answers. You have now clarified that (although using very evasive language) . In this post you say that you are sorry that so many innocents will die and families will lose loved ones, but that that doesn't enter into the calculation of the vital goal of "getting" bin laden. You say you don't want a troop increase, you don't want people to die, but that those issues aren't germane to the importance of pursuing justice in the form of "getting" bin laden. When you argue both sides of the question and use wishy-washy avoidance language, you shouldn't blame others for not "listening".

[DWilliamsamh]

209. OK... You win. I wasn't "clear." Though I doubt you would recognize it when you see it

At least not in someone who doesn't agree with you 100%.

[defendandprotect]

124. Insightful . . . and agree --

[MichaelHarris]

110. Code Pink

was wrong on this one.

[defendandprotect]

125. Two Code Pink women got shoved by the nut in uniform . . . at least two of them . .

and one seems to want to file charges against him --

You missed that somehow?

[MichaelHarris]

146. we just

see different things, it doesn't make us evil.

[John Q. Citizen]

161. I'm just glad to know that I can treat your wife, mother, sister or daughter like that

and you are fine with it.

Since that's how you see it.

[MichaelHarris]

211. nice to see

how you make it personnel, you're no better than the old man.

[defendandprotect]

168. Go to 2:13 on the tape . . .

and tell me you don't see him shoving his face into the woman's face and waving

his hand/finger close to their faces?

Further on you hear the women saying "stop pushing" to him as he continues to get

very close and aggressive with them.

Finally, as the military police pull him off the women, you continue to see him

trying to push and shove the women and his arms are flailing about looking as though

he is trying to hit them.

The women continue to say "stop pushing" -- evidently at least two were pushed -- and

they keep asking, "What's wrong with you?" as he continues to move in on them.

[go west young man]

135. Code Pink was right on!

Those women have some balls! The guy was a bully. Love it when the one lady gets right back at him and says "oh your such a big man". Poor old bastard stepped into a hornets nest. Good for the girls.

[proteus_lives]

148. I watched the video and Sheehan and crew provoked him.

I would slapped the bullhorn away too.

They treated that old man like shit and they wanted him to get aggressive. It's good press for them.

He's no prize but they treated him like crap.

Fundies on both sides screaming at each other.

I saw no assault or crime. Just the failure of communication on both sides.

[defendandprotect]

150. Pushing and shoving the women should certainly . . .

be a case for filing charges against him.

Watch the end of the video where the military police remove HIM from the women --

The nut is still trying to push, shove and hit the women!

[proteus_lives]

152. I watched the whole thing. He wasn't trying to hit anybody.

There's no case against him.

[Raineyb]

156. Bullshit! He got in their face deliberately to start some shit and was

using his rather large belly to try to push back.

Someone should press charges against him and make sure they stick.

[proteus_lives]

159. You're wrong.

Cindy and crew were the ones attempting to start something.

There was no assault or hitting.

[defendandprotect]

166. Cindy and crew were being accosted -- pushed, shoved and the NUT

had his arms flailing about towards them, as the military police removed him.

[DWilliamsamh]

179. For what exactly?

According to YOU take (which is wrong BTW) on the video he was at most belly bumping. LOL And if he was obviously trying to "start something" it is incumbent on those he was TRYING TO PROVOKE, to NOT be provoked.

[defendandprotect]

165. Go to 2:13 on the tape ...

The NUT is very busy getting very aggressive with one of the women --

putting his face up to her face -- and you can hear her say "stop pushing" --

You can also see it is HE who has his hands raised -- as the military police

pull him off the women. Repeatedly, the women continue to say stop pushing as

you can see HIS arms moving towards them.

And they continue to ask, "What's wrong with you?" --

Later, one of the women tells a police officer she wants to file charges against

the NUT.

[proteus_lives]

170. I went to 2:13 and his arms were down.

He was the one who was stumbled back.

They didn't "pull him off" His arms were barely flailing. They are the ones who keep getting in his face and being threatening.

He wasn't pushing or hitting. Despite the woman's efforts to provoke a confrontation.

I suppose you approve of Cindy putting a bullhorn to an old man ear and screaming into it?

[defendandprotect]

175. Really? You didn't see him waving his hand/pointed finger in her face?

Or, did you simply NOT want to see it?

I think the balance of your comment makes clear it's NOT wanted to see . . .

This was a very aggressive old man -- showing his bravery by pushing and shoving women!!

Quite a hero!!!

Disgusting --

[proteus_lives]

176. You're the one with selective sight.

They were both being aggressive with the fingers in faces.

He wasn't pushing them.

How about your hero Cindy, screaming with a bullhorn into a old man's ear. She certainly proved how big of woman she is. No wonder she's working the damage control so fast. Disgusting.

[Hissyspit]

180. He absolutely does push them. Multiple times.

He's a bully. And she didn't scream into a bullhorn into his ear. Even if she did he should have backed off. Period. Big guy. Pushing women around. And in uniform. That's disgusting.

[proteus_lives]

181. There are a lot of bullies in that video.

I see them pushing the old vet. I see them screaming in his face. I see them lifting up their arms and lunging at him. Following the example of their leader. Not very peace-like if you ask me.

He was overreacting to a protest and they became larger assholes in return. I watched the video and if you consider what he did (which amounts to finger-pointing and arm-flailing) assault then Cindy and the lady with the ponytail and the one in the hoodie should be arrested for assault too.

[Hissyspit]

182. Nonsense.

[bertman]

154. Oh Please!! The old fart was being an asshole but Cindy wasn't "assaulted" (haha).

She swung the bullhorn into his face. He was totally justified in knocking it away.

I love Cindy and what she does. I even send her my hard-earned money. But this is crass distortion to say he assaulted her.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

163. I don't respect Cindy.

My son is career air force and has been deployed to Iraq. He's not for this war and is a Democrat who has to leave his wife and child and follow orders. (He joined when Clinton was president).

This woman and her pink goons are standing at the MAIN GATE talking this shit...that old vet was only doing what she was doing and speaking his (addled) mind yet she smothered his face with her bull horn and yelled at him. I would have grabbed it and beat her with it if she had done that to me!

I am very much anti war but in my opinion Cindy is to the anti war movement what PETA is to animal rights for pulling this shit.

[defendandprotect]

169. Cindy did not pursue, accost or chase down the NUT in uniform....

HE came to her very aggressively and continued to move in on her --

Go to 2:13 on the tape and begin watching as the women continue to ask him to "stop pushing" --

Finally, even as the military police are pulling him off of the women, he is still pushing them

and trying to hit them.

At least two of the women were pushed and shoved by him.

Cindy reacted as anyone would have as this NUT came right into her face --

Her face words were "Get out of my face."

And later you see him doing the exact same thing to a Code Pink woman -- but further flailing

his hand about as though trying to hit her.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

196. I'm afraid I saw it different.

It looked like she jammed the bullhorn into his face. The old man (I hate him with a passion) was just trying to do what she was doing, just to stand at the main gate and make his point. Cindy made the first aggressive move. I'd have grabbed it and beat her with it if she did that to me! I don't put up with shit!

What 'nice' code pink lady was yelling "piece of crap" repeatedly to an old airman proudly showing all his ribbons and medals? Or was that the wonderful Cindy herself?

My point one more time; this is pissing off anti-war people like me. For all you not-so-bright sparks on DU, this doesn't make me PRO-WAR.

[mbperrin]

171. Your son is still alive, I take it?

Perhaps that is coloring your perspective. Why don't you try it from her side?

I've lost two outstanding students in this mess, and it is a complete waste of two lives.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

195. A big fuck you to you.

Yes that's me alright! You think I think my son made it home alive so fuck Cindy's dead son and all the rest of the dead and injured. STOP PROJECTING your stupidity and callousness into me!!!! I don't have to have a loved one die to understand why war is wrong. And try to fire up some brain cells and understand my point.

[mbperrin]

197. Thanks for the offer, but I'm married.

Your point was that you don't respect Cindy, because....

beats me. I have an English degree, but I can't tell why. Your reasoned response to the deaths of my two students is a study in courtesy and rhetorical effectiveness as well.

Anybody who is trying to stop these useless wars has my support. Period.

Now I will wish you a good day and continued success in keeping your offspring alive. Perhaps you could assist in extending that wish to a few others as well.

[20score]

172. Well, you should respect her. She did a lot to awaken the anti-war sentiment in this country,

which has done a lot of good.

I am a member of Veterans for Peace, a vet myself with many friends who were in the service. Don't ever confuse anti-war with anti-soldier.

That's being anti-rational.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

194. I hope American's

don't have to have some woman yelling into a bullhorn to awaken people to the fact Bush's war is wrong. American's are a pretty stupid bunch I know but.. I am aware of the difference of anti-war and anti-airman, and that's why I think she should keep this shit away from the main gate! By the way 20score, don't tell me whom I should respect because it rubs me the wrong was for some damn reason.

[20score]

199. Judgmental people who are intolerant of others that are trying to do some good

rub me the wrong way.

And if someone is too wimpy to see a protest, then they certainly are too wimpy to be in the service.

[proud2BlibKansan]

189. So it was okay for this man to assault her and the other women??

When your son no longer has to go back to Iraq or Afghanistan, you can thank those 'goons' in pink and Cindy Sheehan. No I won't be holding my breath.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

193. Bloody hell.

proud2blibKansan, Notice I've been here since the beginning! So yeah, I must think it's really neat for old red necks to beat up women. You are not using your thinking skills. I must not have been clear on this one let me try again; Cindy 'assaulted' him first and he 'assaulted' her right back. They are both dip shits. The code pink goons are not going to stop the war. My point was this THEY ARE PISSING OFF ANTI WAR PEOPLE LIKE ME. And they are pissing off the dependents and loved ones left behind. Keep this shit away from the main gate!!!!!!! Clear enough for you?

[proud2BlibKansan]

198. Cindy did not assault him first. Or at all.

I admire and respect the work Code Pink does. I don't always agree with them but I would never call them goons.

[go west young man]

204. You seem to miss a very important point in regards to democracy

and what your son is defending in the military. The right to protest freely. Cindy is doing that. The old man has the right to do that. But notice that Cindy does not go to the old man in the video. He brings his protest into her space. Then she reacts with the bullhorn in his face. Protesting in front of military bases is done all over the world no matter what the military. In Fort Benning in regards to the School of The Americas, in the UK at Downing Street and in front of airbases in regards to renditions, in Okinawa in regards to US bases there. People protest all over the world. Sorry if that turns you off and makes you anti-anti war but I would suggest you grow some deeper understanding of what it truly means to be against the war. Those women are on your sons side. They are against the policy not the troops. The old man is for the policy at any cost. He would of made a "good German". My personal point of view is that it takes far more courage to quit the military or refuse to serve when the policy is a bad one. Fighting an immoral war serves no one well. Hence the high suicide rate in the military right now. I was in the Marines but I would of done brig time before this madness we've got into now. I know my conscience would have been intact after everything that has now occurred.

[pengillian101]

223. This woman and her pink goons are standing at the MAIN GATE talking this shit.

Exactly! Protesting our military members at their home base. Directly protesting our soldiers is exactly what happened during and after the VN war. That just demoralizes our troops. Way to go Code Pink and Cindy - your efforts are hurting our sons and daughters and all the ones we care about who serve. This last protest proves it. Time to stop it.

Go protest at D.C. if you want to protest the war. Service members don't need this shit!

*********

"Cindy Sheehan, activists get into fight with military veteran"

The army veteran told reporters that he was upset with the anti-war protest because of its effect on the morale of soldiers, according to Kansas City Fox News. “They ruin the troops. They get to the troops. They did the same thing in Vietnam,” the man said.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/282983

[avalonofmists]

188. Thanks for all the good work you do Cindy.