This is my 1st attempt at adding subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing and I'm still figuring it out.
Christiane Amanpour's show is aired nightly on CNN International and her blog, op-eds, clips from previous episodes and more can be seen
">here. Full episodes are available as podcasts there, too.
Prior to this interview she spoke with Hanif Atmar, "a close ally of Karzai and head of the powerful Ministry of Interior". I can't find the video yet but the transcript is
">here.
AMANPOUR: Joining me now from Kabul is Ashraf Ghani. He was a presidential candidate in this latest Afghan election. He's a former finance minister and a former World Bank official, perhaps best placed to tell us what's needed and what's possible in Afghanistan.
Welcome to our program, Mr. Ghani.
ASHRAF GHANI, FORMER AFGHAN FINANCE MINISTER: Pleasure to be with you.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Ghani, when I saw you earlier this year, you told me that it was no longer just corruption in Afghanistan, but whole-scale looting. People are telling me now that it's a criminalized institution, the government and governance there. What can be done to change it?
GHANI: First, it's question of results.
Two thousand individuals in positions that have turned the government into a looting machine need to be changed. People of integrity and judgment need to be appointed.Second, failures of abuse need to be prioritized. There are a series of tests. The first is what is going to be done with customs revenue.
Right now, there are indications that several hundred million dollars might have been stolen from customs revenues at the Kabul Airport alone.Second are tolls in the roads, in allowing governors to impose taxes that have no basis in the constitution and have not been put in government accounts. So, again, this is a clear area.
So the list goes on.
And there's the mining issue. The Washington Post has an article accusing the minister of mines of having received $30 million in payment for a copper contract. Afghanistan is very rich in natural resources, and the way these contracts are handled is going to be very critical.AMANPOUR: Do you believe that President Karzai can and will root out these -- what you call negative forces?
GHANI: The president owes his election to the very forces that are negative, so the first test is, what will he do with his campaign staff, both centrally and provincially?
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you this. One of the things the Obama administration seems to be floating is that, if the Karzai government proves incompetent and still corrupt, they would funnel U.S. funds, other international funds to the provinces, to the governors. Is that a good idea? I hear you saying it's the provincials who are also skimming so much.
GHANI: All provincial governors are appointed by -- by the president, by the central government. And some of them have been among the most abusive in terms of corruption and misapplication of the law, in taking the law into their hands.
AMANPOUR: There have been many allegations about President Karzai's brother, Ahmed. There have been allegations about General Fahim, his vice president, allegations about the son of the defense minister, bribes and such things. Do you think Mr. Karzai will get rid of any of these people?
GHANI: If he doesn't, then he's going to fail the test of leadership. Kinship and ruling are not compatible. In our history, those who have built states have had to separate themselves from their kin. And unless one meets that test, one cannot rise to become a state.
AMANPOUR: What do you make of the interior minister, Hanif Atmar, who has launched a new anti-corruption unit and told me that ministers who fail the test will basically be booted and held accountable? Is that likely?
GHANI: Well, I think the first issue is that, what's the level of corruption? Minister Atmar is a competent man, but his ministry is among the most corrupt in the country. The police force is a scandal. It has perpetuated immense crimes. The World Bank and the U.N. anti-drug operation have done a study to show how in detail the Ministry of Interior was captured by drug interests and other criminal interests.
So fundamentally, we need first a functioning Ministry of Interior, and I hope that the minister -- if he's retained in his post -- turns inward and as well as outward and succeeds in objectives that are long overdue.
AMANPOUR: So the question is, will they? I know we all hope that. Is there any leverage, any breaking, turning point right now that will encourage them, force them to do that?
GHANI: Yes, of course. The first is your program, the media. The level of scrutiny that Afghanistan is receiving in the issue of corruption, is now receiving on the international media, is an immense source of positive pressure.
Second, Afghan society is mobilizing. Afghan society intensely dislikes this corruption, because it is destroying the moral fabric of the society. It's a cancer that is threatening our existence as a nation, so the two sides are finally seeing eye to eye.
For eight years, the international community under the leadership of President Bush tolerated corruption, did not raise any issues where the Afghan public was complaining about it. Now, both the international community and the Afghan public are on the same page, and the government will be squeezed from both sides.AMANPOUR: Well, let me play you what Hillary Clinton told the American media over the weekend, coming directly from -- I think what you're just saying. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, SECRETARY OF STATE: We have no illusions. This is not the prior days when people would come on your show and talk about, you know, how we were going to help the Afghans, you know, build a modern democracy and build a -- you know, a more functioning state...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0911/19/ampr.01.html">CNN's transcript says this is where the show was interrupted by breaking news and the show didn't resume. However, as can been seen in this clip, it did and Christianne continues with "
Holy shifting backsliding goals, Mr Ghani!"
Apologies to anyone who needs to read what was said during the last 3 minutes but I don't have time to transcribe it right now. I will add it to the subtitles when I have time, though.
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