Rachel Maddow: Frank Schaeffer Warns Against New Religious Right Threat to Obama (Psalms 109:9)

[Hissyspit]

Run time: 08:55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZzsjULXDnA   Posted on YouTube: November 18, 2009 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: November 18, 2009 By DU Member: Hissyspit Views on DU: 20547

 
MSNBC The Rachel Maddow Show - 17 November 2009.

Rachel Maddow reports on the latest racist and disturbing attacks on President Obama, including the merchandising of Psalm 109:8 on T-shirts and teddy bears. The Biblical verses are threatening when taken out of context as they do and applied to the President.

MADDOW: "And then there's this, a Biblical quote making the rounds in anti-Obama circles, as reported this week in The Christian Science Monitor: Pray For President Obama - Psalm 109 Verse 8. What's Psalm 109:8? Well, it reads 'Let His Days Be Few, And Let Another Take His Office.' Let his days be few. Uh, it's followed immediately by another verse: 'Let His Children Be Fatherless, And His Wife A Widow.'

And don't forget, that sentiment is now being merchandized on bumper stickers, on mouse pads, on teddy bears, on aprons, framed tiles - those are nice - keepsake boxes, T-shirts. Let his days be few, ha, ha, on a teddy bear. Is anybody else creeped out by this?

Joining us now is Frank Schaeffer, whose father Francis Schaeffer helped shape the evangelical movement in the United States. Mr. Schaeffer grew up in the religious far-right. He's the author of 'Patience With God: Faith For People Who Don't Like Religion Or Atheism." Mr. Schaeffer, thanks very much for coming back on the show."

SCHAEFFER: "Thanks for having me on."

MADDOW: "'Let his days be few and let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless and his wife a widow.' This is such strong language in secular terms about President Obama. Can you tell me if this means something less threatening to people hearing this in a Biblical context?"

SCHAEFFER: "No, actually it means something more threatening.

I think that the situation that I find genuinely frightening right now is that you have a ramping up of biblical language, language from the anti-abortion movement, for instance, death panels, and this sort of thing, and what it's coalescing into is branding Obama as Hitler, as they have already called him, as something foreign to our shores -we're reminded of that, he was 'born in Kenya' - as Brown, as Black, above all, as not us. He is Sarah Palin's 'not a real American.'

But now, it turns out, that he joins the ranks of the unjust kings of ancient Israel, unjust rulers, to which all these Biblical allusions are directed, who should be slaughtered, if not by God, then by just men.

So there's a direct parallel here with Timothy McVeigh's T-shirt on the day of the Oklahoma City bombing, in which he said that the 'tree of liberty had to be watered occasionally by the blood of tyrants,' and that quote we saw again at a meeting at which Obama was present being carried on a placard by someone carrying a loaded weapon.

What we're looking at right now is two things going on. We see the evangelical groups that I talk about in my new book, 'Patience With God,' enthralled by an apocalyptic vision that I go into in some detail in there. They represent the millions of people who have turned the 'Left Behind' series into best-sellers. Most of them are not crazy, they're just deluded. But there is a crazy fringe to whom all these little messages that have been pouring out of Fox News, now on a bumper sticker, talking about doing away with Obama, asking God to kill him...

Really, this is trawling for assassins. And this is serious business. It's un-American, it's unpatriotic, and it goes to show that the religious right, the Republican far-right, have coalesced into a group that truly wants American revolution, and if it turns out to be blood in the streets and death, so be it. This is not funny stuff any more. They cannot be dismissed as just crazies on the fringe. It only takes one."

- snip -

MADDOW: "And, to be clear, I mean, over-the-top political criticism is as American as apple pie, and incredibly intense criticism has been leveled at George W. Bush and against every President that's gone before him in modern times, but you're saying that there is essentially a religious inflection in the most extreme of the commentary against Obama that's operating on a religious level, that's a signal to a religiously-minded audience."

SCHAEFFER: "Absolutely. Look. This is the American version of the Taliban. The Taliban quotes the Qu'ran, and al Qaeda quotes certain verses in the Qu'ran, in or out of context, calling for jihad, and bloody war, and the curse of Allah on infidels. This is the Old Testament, Biblical equivalent of calling for holy war. Now, most Americans'll just see the bumper sticker and smile and think that it's facetious. Unfortunately, there are 22 million Americans or so who call themselves super-conservative evangelicals. Of this, a small minority might be violent. But, the general atmosphere here is really getting heated.

And what surprises me is that responsible, if you can put it that way, Republican leadership and the editors of some of these Christian magazines, etc. etc., do not stand up in holy horror and denounce this. You know, they're always asking 'Where is the Islamic leadership denouncing terrorism? Why aren't the moderates speaking out?' Well, I challenge the folks who I used to work with... I would just say to them: 'Where the hell are you? This is not funny anymore. And be it on your head if something happens to our President..."

MORE

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. He is saying what many of us have warned against

I hope people really start paying attention. And him calling them the American Taliban takes on a whole new threat level...

Oh and I got the book...

[BlancheSplanchnik]

48. we warned them about bush.

we seem to know what's going on ahead of the curve. Frustrating when no one listens.

I hope they start listening. This is a curve I don't want to go over.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

99. these people

are those talked about in the Bible as The Beast, imho.

For the Beast to exist there had to have been the False Prophet.
It is written, The False Prophet and The Beast.

[GoCubsGo]

50. What is even more scary...

Parts of the MSM are complicit in this. My local newspaper prints LTEs from these nutjobs on a daily basis. I am all for freedom of speech, but I don't think fomenting the assassination of our President is what our Founding Fathers had in mind with the 2nd Amendment.

[dgibby]

122. He hit the nail squarely on the head last night.

These people scare me more any one else on the planet. Why? Because they're right here, trying to establish a Theocracy and undermining our gov't, as opposed to a foreign group, such as the Taliban or Al Quada.

I sincerely believe that they destroyed the republican party, have infiltrated the Democratic Party, and are now actively involved in destroying it as well. We had better wake up if we want prevent this from happening to us (although when I watch the DLC and Blue Dogs, I wonder if we're already too late).

I never thought I'd ever say this, but if the radical right ever gets back in power or if the Dems keep placating them, I will seriously consider moving out of the US.

[PurpleChez]

139. I would never try to pass myself off as a pundit...

...or, as I believe both McCain and Palin would say, a "pundint"...but I actually predicted this. I didn't foresee the racial element (which automatically brands me as too dense to be a pundint), but while the primaries were still going on I was very open with my fears, if any Democrat should win the Presidency, that the right wing would go mental, that in eight short years they had become so accustomed to the idea that the US would be forever controlled by authoritarian, fundamentalist religious nutjobs that their heads would explode at the thought of any non-thumper taking the presidency. As if we needed proof of this we now have this story... Can I have my genius grant now? ;)

[Sinistrous]

2. Wouldn't displaying that poster/bumpersticker warrant

a visit from some men in black suits?

[bertman]

78. I think it would, Sinistrous. If that isn't advocating the demise of the President of the U.S.

I don't know what is.

[verges]

117. Advocating is not planning.

And, as I understand it, the Secret Srevice is over extended with this crap already!

[bertman]

125. They wouldn't be "over extended" if they started snatching these people up and putting

them behind bars for ADVOCATING the death of the President. The problem now is that any dickhead can say whatever he wants with impunity. When Bush was President people were thrown in jail for making jokes about him.

[verges]

200. So we should be more like Bush? nt

[Gregorian]

3. Worth watching.

I like this guy a lot.

Support the president. We need to stick together now more than ever.

[bjobotts]

23. God protect our president from the propagandists who spout hatred and fear.

[bjobotts]

24. We love our president for stopping the torture and seeking peace

[bjobotts]

25. We love our president for pulling us back from the cliff of another republican great depression

[bjobotts]

26. He seeks to unite our country andlook how craven the worms of hatred be.

[bjobotts]

27. If I were God I could come up with a better plan than that of the old testament

[bjobotts]

28. Those who condemn and call for violence do not speak for god.They are the liars warned of.

[SkyDaddy7]

54. Maybe they do not speak for "your" god...

However, the god of the Bible has a long track record of doing the most violent sick things that can be done...This can't be pushed under the carpet as it is clearly described in the Bible...And Jesus confirms. Death to those who do not believe what he does, period! Whether it is in this life or the mythical afterlife Jesus upholds the value of killing in the name of belief. Yes Jesus preaches peace but he also preaches death...Yes, there are mixed messages because it is normal men who wrote the Bible. However, the bottomline for every person alive is you must accept Jesus or die (or be horribly tortured forever depending on how one views the scripture), its not hard to understand.

Lets not continue to fool ourselves, the Bible is a Bronze Age view of the world and how people should act & think in a Bronze Age world...For "so-called" moderate Christians to act as if this is not the case only allows the nut jobs to continue operating out in the open.

The excuses are endless as to why people continue to follow such Bronze Age writings but it is what it is.

[defendandprotect]

105. Exactly . . . the most violent book ever written and needs to be condemned by

those who want democracy, human rights and peace --

Catholics also have to wake up to what they think the church is teaching and

what the hierarchy of the church is actually doing!!

Male supremacy isn't democracy!!

[AlbertCat]

115. How about just not living your life based on ancient superstitions?

The Bible is like the Mahabharata, and Gilgamesh and the myriad of other books coddled together over the ancient epochs... usually based on some truth...like a feud between ancient families no one can remember. They are all full of violence and nonsense. The Bible has no monopoly on ancient crap. They may have lovely ideas and interesting notions buried within the muck, but to "live" by them and have a "fill in the ancient text" world view is absurd and only fills the coffers of religious organizations and keeps some of the most useless people ever born in silks and satins.....and influence.

The point he made about moderates not lifting a finger to help is the most important thing he said. You fantasy, big spook in the sky believers...get your people in line. Why should I have to do it. I don't believe ancient superstitions. I live in the present! Clean your own house before the stench suffocates us all!

[SkyDaddy7]

156. Did you hear about the Somali Girl?

They stoned her to death for having an affair...The male got 100 lashes. What makes me almost as mad is hearing the Christians claim their religion is a religion of peace! Obviously they have not read their Bibles!

I am a male but I am so amazed at how many women are willing to call themselves Christians considering what the Bible makes them out to be. What even blows me away more is Gay & Lesbians that claim to be Christian? WHY WHY WHY?

IMHO, RELIGION ROTS THE MIND!!!

[GMA]

166. Please, oh, please get your facts straight--

This stoning was carried out under Sharia law. I don't think Muslims use the Bible.

[defendandprotect]

169. The poster made clear he was talking about Christians and their Bibles . . .

[GMA]

172. Then it would be best not to use

a horrible non-Christian murder as an illustration.

[defendandprotect]

177. WE are largely discussing the violence of Christianity ... and the Bible ..

read my post above --

However, ALL organized patriarchal religion has a violent history -

and, therefore, the potential for being newly violent. Remember the Vatican armies?

The Office of the Inquistion?

Conveniently, 1.5 million Muslims are now dead in Iraq.

[GMA]

181. Imagine how violent they'd been without religion--lol

That was a totally lame joke!

[defendandprotect]

183. It is a "joke" because the violent hide behind religion, as always . . .

[SkyDaddy7]

206. Who said the Muslims use the Bible?

However, to be honest the Muslims will reference the Bible (Old Testament) as it was the foundation of 3 desert religions. So, I think you may need to do some research before making such statements...That is if you really care about the truth.

Religions have served their purpose as forms of governing...The further a society can get from religion the better. America is starting slip back into the black hole and if we don't chnage we too will see more & more mindless violence. Look what we do to GLBT! And how we try to control what women do with their own bodies. Its just a short path before this Bronze Age thinking is forced on the rest of us!

Folks can act like it will never happen here but it already does.

[defendandprotect]

174. Very depressing event . . . and I am also amazed at how many women/families are

are willing to spend time and money supporting a male-supremacist religion!!

Too often one generation subjects the other to this religious indoctrination --

which is highly fear based -- and they put kids into this before the age of reason,

before they even have a chance to know their own thoughts and conscience!

:)

[Waiting For Everyman]

161. I disagree

with everything you said. Your view of the Bible AND Jesus' message is messed up. I don't intend to argue that with you, because your position is anything but open-minded. I want to simply make it clear that not everyone here agrees with your opinion. And that's just what it is, an opinion, and not fact as you seem to think.

Frank Schaeffer though, calls it right. He is right for the right reasons, and based on current fact. Not subjective emotion, misinformation, ancient mythology, or prejudice.

[GMA]

168. Thanks for this breath of sanity.

Talk about hate-spewing, people! Come on, get a grip.

[SkyDaddy7]

213. Don't get me wrong...

I happen to agree with many of Jesus teachings...However, there is no need to inject magic and supernatural meaning into what he says. Jesus was no different than any other philosopher yet we don't see folks dying over David Hume.

The reason I said what I said about Jesus is he never rejected Leviticus and the simply disgusting things spread all through "god's law"...This leaves the door wide open for nut jobs! Jesus actually voiced his strong support for such barbaric laws. Yes, there are conflicting messages but "god's law" is what it is! BARBARIC!

We don't need "religion" and "myths" to follow the teachings of any human being including Jesus...Once magic and the after life are injected and the ultimatum is set "Except Jesus or burn in hell" his teachings become garbage! You may choose to ignore the bad side of Jesus and thats your choice but as long as so called moderates do this then the nut jobs can operate as a "normal" part of society.

We have religion to thank for women not being treated as equals and GLTB people being treated as second class citizens...The distrust of science and much much more!

[Tx4obama]

4. EVERYONE should watch this video and send it to everyone you know! n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

5. I beleive he knows of what he speaks..and that scares the crap out of me.

Brings this to mind.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0010508

<snip>
He was the nation's most revered war hero, who late in life was transformed into its top soldier for peace. Yet in the end, the Nobel Peace Prize-winner and survivor of four wars between Israel and the Arabs was killed by a fellow Jew. Authorities identified the gunman as Yigal Amir, a 27-year-old student at Bar Ilan University who had links to the extremist group Eyal, which opposes any attempt to make peace with the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). Israel Radio said Amir, who was arrested at the scene, quickly confessed to the assassination and told police: "I acted alone on God's orders, and I have no regrets."

The assault took security forces by surprise, occurring at the biggest gathering in years of pro-government peace activists. But experts on the Israeli radical right said the writing had long been on the wall. Rabin had been labelled a "traitor" by Jewish extremists ever since he signed the 1993 peace agreement in Washington with PLO Leader Yasser Arafat. Protesters in Jerusalem last month displayed photo montages of Rabin dressed in a Nazi Gestapo uniform, implying that he shared guilt for the deaths of Jews killed by Palestinian terror. But the majority of Israeli Jews, who distance themselves from that extremist fringe, felt the same horror at the assassination as did the rest of the world.
<snip>

[bjobotts]

29. Me 2. No talking to fanatics...they are delusional and don't understand principles.

[bjobotts]

31. A Sociopath like O'Reilly is just as guilty of mudering Tiller as the trigger man

[bjobotts]

33. Beck is just as guilty of murder as the cop-killer who thought Obama was taking away his guns

Beck incites violence daily and i only hope it returns on him rather than anyone else. His insanity and propaganda is set to divide the nation and protect the wealthiest among us and their trans national corporations. He is paid millions for treason to democracy. If a civil war ever broke out he would be one of the first whose head would end up on a pike. He'd sell his mother for the right price. Literally insane and completely delusional.

Our founders fought for liberty and freedom and justice for all ("under god" was added in the '50s by congress to show the communists we believed in religion but was not included by our founders) Now we have the American Taliban fundamentalists pointing out who to kill...That is not democracy.

[vaberella]

39. Normally I hate your spam-like posts...but today I commend you. n/t

[spiritual_gunfighter]

44. I cant stand his spam-like posts either

I wonder why he does that, but this was one of the good ones.

[get the red out]

74. +1

I agree with all of them. I am deeply disturbed by these people and worry about what lengths they will go to, just like the Taliban. The Christian Right and the Taliban are twins separated at birth as far as I am concerned.

[AlbertCat]

133. but today I commend you.

I don't.

O'Reilly and Beck are not just as guilty as those criminals who acted. They are irresponsible and despicable and clueless to their complacency and enablement, but that is not as great a crime as actually pulling the trigger.

Personally, I blame Hip Hop.


NO! Of course I don't. But blaming Beck is just like blaming Rock & Roll or violence in movies. These things, like O'Reilly, may be factors...even huge factors, but they are not just as guilty. What of the hundreds of thousands of people who watch Beck daily but do nothing like murder? The murderer is guilty of the murder. O'Reilly and Beck are indeed guilty of something....but not the murder.

This "just as guilty" rhetoric sounds just like them! So, if someone reads your posts and decides Beck is too dangerous to live and murders him....are you just as guilty as they for the murder?

Try to remain rational. Otherwise you might as well be a teabagger.

[Turborama]

6. K&R Isn't promoting the death of the President a crime?

BTW How do you get the transcripts so quickly? Do you write them yourself?

[GMA]

170. K&R--

what is wrong with the people here on du???? There's sarcasm, and then there's pure, unadulterated hatred. The stuff spewing out on this thread is truly sad.

But, since you brought it up, doesn't anybody remember the glee over the movie "Death of a President"?

[Turborama]

182. "what is wrong with the people here on du???? "

There's mostly concern and some religious debate actually. I can't see any "sarcasm, and pure, unadulterated hatred" as you describe it.


Comparing what happened when Busch was in power to what's happening now is a typical Republican/Faux news tactic. Instead of trying to do that here, you'd be better off taking it to freeperville.

[Grassy Knoll]

7. What a sad pathetic antic , those repricks .....

Wont be happy until they have the office again, no matter what cost !!!

[maxpower]

8. This is getting scary

I have been worrying since he announced his candidacy.




Peace,
Max

[Shanti Mama]

9. I'm very frightened for the US and the world

I wasn't a big fan of Schaeffer's before but I can see in the video that he really believes what he is saying. And he's placing the blame where it belongs, on the leadership of the Christian far-right.

As he says, WHERE ARE THEY?

[ihavenobias]

10. K & R n/t

[Douglas Carpenter]

11. very scary stuff!!! THIS NEEDS TO GO VIRAL!!! for the safety of the world

[Piewhacket]

12. Not many sreps left on this ladder to insanity. Yikes. He's scared, and he should know.

[madrchsod]

13. that`s why they strung up jesus on the cross

he was a threat to their beliefs and corruptions.

jesus did`t die for their sins

[Sinti]

15. "their beliefs and their corruptions" in that sense he did die for their sins

if he ever existed

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

101. Few realize the insult not only to those of Christian faith but Muslim too

in denying Christ. That said, these people talked about by Schaffer are EVIL, and know not Christ.

http://www.soundvision.com/Info/Jesus/inIslam.asp

The Islamic and Christian views of Jesus: a comparison
The person of Jesus or Isa in Arabic (peace be upon him) is of great significance in both Islam and Christianity. However, there are differences in terms of beliefs about the nature and life occurrences of this noble Messenger.

Source of information about Jesus in Islam

Most of the Islamic information about Jesus is actually found in the Quran.

The Quran was revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), and memorized and written down in his lifetime. Today, anyone who calls him or herself a Muslim believes in the complete authenticity of the Quran as the original revealed guidance from God.

Source of information about Jesus in Christianity

Christians take their information about Jesus from the Bible, which includes the Old and New Testaments.

These contain four biblical narratives covering the life and death of Jesus. They have been written, according to tradition, respectively by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are placed at the beginning of the New Testament and comprise close to half of it.

Encyclopedia Britannica notes that none of the sources of his life and work can be traced to Jesus himself; he did not leave a single known written word. Also, there are no contemporary accounts written of his life and death. What can be established about the historical Jesus depends almost without exception on Christian traditions, especially on the material used in the composition of the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke, which reflect the outlook of the later church and its faith in Jesus.

Below are the views of Islam and Christianity based on primary source texts and core beliefs.


ISLAM


1. Do Muslims believe he was a Messenger of One God? YES

Belief in all of the Prophets and Messengers of God is a fundamental article of faith in Islam. Thus, believing in Prophets Adam, Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them) is a requirement for anyone who calls him or herself a Muslim. A person claiming to be a Muslim who, for instance, denies the Messengership of Jesus, is not considered a Muslim.

The Quran says in reference to the status of Jesus as a Messenger:

"The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!" (Quran 5 75).


2. Do Muslims believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES

Like Christians, Muslims believe Mary, Maria in Spanish, or Maryam as she is called in Arabic, was a chaste, virgin woman, who miraculously gave birth to Jesus.

"Relate in the Book the story of Mary, when she withdrew from her family, to a place in the East. She screened herself from them; then We sent to her Our spirit (angel Gabriel) and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: I seek refuge from you in God Most Gracious (come not near) if you do fear God. He said: Nay, I am only a Messenger from your Lord, to announce to you the gift of a pure son. She said: How shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me, and I am not unchaste? He said: So it will be, your Lord says: ‘That is easy for Me; and We wish to appoint him as a sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It was a matter so decreed" (Quran 19:16-21).


3. Do Muslims believe Jesus had a miraculous birth? YES

The Quran says:

"She (Mary) said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He (God) said: ‘So (it will be) for God creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: ‘Be!'- and it is" (3:47).

It should also be noted about his birth that:

"Verily, the likeness of Jesus in God's Sight is the likeness of Adam. He (God) created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!'-and he was" (Quran 3:59).


4. Do Muslims believe Jesus spoke in the cradle? YES

"Then she (Mary) pointed to him. They said: ‘How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' He (Jesus) said: ‘Verily! I am a slave of God, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet; " (19:29-30).

5. Do Muslims believe he performed miracles? YES

Muslims, like Christians believe Jesus performed miracles. But these were performed by the will and permission of God, Who has power and control over all things.

"Then will God say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit (the angel Gabriel) so that you did speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold: you make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by My leave, and you heal those born blind, and the lepers by My leave. And behold! you bring forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the children of Israel from (violence to you) when you did show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic' (5:110).

[Sinti]

108. Christians and Muslims should not take this statement personally

They should not be insulted by the opinions of nonbelievers. That said, I apologize if you feel insulted. It was certainly not my intention. I would gladly take back what I aid if you, or anyone else, can provide me with one single non-Biblical historical reference to the existence of this person Jesus.

If he did exist, was crucified, and rose to the heavens upon resurrection I would expect the Romans would have certainly written down such an unusual thing. Even if he merely was born and died, if he had a following the Romans, or other regional players, would have written it down somewhere. The Bible as we know it was born out of the Council of Nicea. I would not trust Emperor Constantine as far as I could throw him - he was, after all, a Roman Emperor.

Provide a historical reference, and I will moderate my language on this henceforth and formally apologize for actually speaking a lie.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

127. apology accepted.

[Piewhacket]

146. A conditional offer of apology is not an apology but rather...

an offer to tender an apology on the fulfillment
of the condition.

Sooo.. to get the apology you must first fulfill
the requested condition, THEN you might get
an apology which you might (or not) accept.

As to whether people believe, accept, doubt,
or deny Christ... you aren't in charge of
that (your Grand Inquisitor is).

Offended by a doubt or denial of Christ
you may be, but then a profession of belief
in Christ might be equally offensive to others.

So what result do you seek with such views, Jihad??

[Sinti]

149. Namaste n/t

[Piewhacket]

165. namaste

i'm from a long line of Christians,
my great-great grandaddy, the Rev. Piewhacket, taught
his grandson, my granddaddy the Rev. Piewhacket,
who taught me that:

Matthew 7:12
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do
to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
(see also Matthew 22:35 , Luke 10:25-28 )

I sometimes find it difficult to understand how a
person calling themselves a "Christian" can have
overlooked books of Matthew and Luke in the Bible, or forgotten
the second highest law of their faith. Its all very curious.

But then I looked further and discovered a great teaching
from the Talmud,where a gentile taunted the Rabbi
that he would study the Torah if the Rabbi could teach it to
him while he stood upon one foot. The Rabbi agreed and replied
"What is hateful to yourself, do not do to others, that is the whole
of the Torah, the rest is commentary. Now go and study it."

And then I found it everywhere else. In ancient China,
ancient Greece, everywhere man has been. I found this concept
is not confined to the Christians at all, but is a nearly universally
accepted precept of both secular morality and religious faith.
It may actually be the source of all secular law.
What think you of that?

So there it is.
It is as universal a truth as exists in the minds of men.
How then could any Christian possibly overlook it?
How then can any believing person, Christian, Muslim, Hindu,
Buddist, overlook it. How could any non-believing person
overlook it.




=========================
Matthew 7:12
12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,
do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
In Accord Luke 10:25-28

[Sinti]

212. Human beings often seem to seek complexity

Do what you can - which is behave exactly how you wish all other humans would behave, because the only thing you actually can control is your own actions. It's simple, easy and effective - it may take some practice. However, this philosophy keeps us from being able to use our sharpened sticks as often as we would like. I hope we grow out of this habit of stabbing and bashing people for fun and profit.

Thanks, I enjoyed this post :)

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

208. Actually I was talking about what the poster said

they apologized for the comments insulting my fragile ego.


:hi:

[TicketyBoo]

129. Is it enough for you

to believe that Jesus existed by the fact that we use his birth to determine our calendar all these years later?

There is history.

[Sinti]

138. One non-biblical reference is all I ask

just one. The fact that we continue to use the old Roman manner of keeping time is no sort of proof. January 1st begins our year, not December 25th. Many of us use C.E. (Current Era) rather than A.D. (Anno Domini)? Many myths have lasted for centuries, that does not make them truths.

[Waiting For Everyman]

171. ok...

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/157

http://www.carm.org/apologetics/evidence-and-answers/did-jesus-ever-exist

(excerpt from 2nd ref)
Historical Textual Evidence for Jesus’ Existence
There are over 42 sources within 150 years after Jesus’ death which mention his existence and record many events of his life.

1. 9 Traditional New Testament Authors

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Author of Hebrews, James, Peter, and Jude.

2. 20 Early Christian Writers Outside the New Testament

Clement of Rome, 2 Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp, Didache, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Fragments of Papias, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Quadratus, Aristo of Pella, Melito of Sardis, Diognetus, Gospel of Peter, Apocalypse of Peter, and Epistula Apostolorum.

3. 4 Heretical Writings

Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Apocryphon of John, and Treatise on Resurrection.

4. 9 Secular Sources

Josephus (Jewish historian),
Tacitus (Roman historian),
Pliny the Younger (Roman politician),
Phlegon (freed slave who wrote histories),
Lucian (Greek satirist),
Celsus (Roman philosopher),
Mara Bar Serapion (prisoner awaiting execution),
Suetonius, and
Thallus.

[comrade snarky]

178. 150 years after he died is not contemporaneous

Neither is 75 yeas or 50 or even 25. For example, Josephus wrote of the stories people were telling about Jesus almost 100 years after he died. Even if it's accurate and not a later forgery as has been suggested it's still far from an account of the historical Jesus.

Using the gospels for proof is a textbook case of circular reasoning. The book says it's true so it must be true, see, the book says so and it doesn't lie because the book says it's truth. Anyway, not one of the gospels was written by people who actually saw Jesus. The earliest gospel is from a generation later.

By the middle of the second century Christianity had grown to the point of legend. It's less than 100 years later that it becomes the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Texts referring to Christians is no proof of Jesus. I can point you to articles about Harry Potter fans. That doesn't mean he's real.

[Waiting For Everyman]

184. When historians write about Harry Potter's life, that claim might fly.

As I guessed beforehand, this wasn't about validity after all. It's evident that you didn't read the links but that's ok.

Socrates didn't write anything either, yet I somehow never hear of anybody questioning his existence. Now why would such an intelligent man never write anything? I find that unbelievable. :sarcasm:

[comrade snarky]

187. Because there are also contemporaries of Socrates

Who write about him and his influence during his lifetime and just after he died. Plato for one.

If there were no mentions of Socrates until 40 years after his hemlock highball and then there was nothing from people who actually met him, but only mentions of his followers that look suspiciously like they were inserted later by loyal Greek loving philosophical adherents.

Well then, you might have a point. Since that's not the case...

[comrade snarky]

189. And by the way, I did read your links

And I find them wanting as proof of a historical Jesus.

To take a few, Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger write a century or more after Jesus. Not exactly eyewitnesses. Josephus is a bit better at 90 years. They write of contemporary Christians of the first and second century CE and stories they have heard of Jesus. That's it.

As much as you want it to be true, there is no record of Jesus from his own time.



Edited for typo

[Waiting For Everyman]

191. "Contemporaneous" was not asked for in the post I responded to.

That's your own requirement which to me, is arbitrary. As far as I'm concerned, evidence is evidence regardless of timing.

(Of course that's after discounting the fact that most of the New Testament is contemporaneous and/or eyewitness accounts. But don't bother telling me - I'm aware of all the supposed "reasons" why those somehow "don't count" too. Thing is, I don't agree on that either. I've read all the "debunking" arguments before and find them to be absurd nonsense.)

[comrade snarky]

194. Believe if you want to, that's called faith

When you make claims of historical proof for the existence of Jesus maybe have something better than stories told to a Roman 100 years after he is supposed to have been executed or the same Roman noting the existence of late 1st century Christians.

No one questions the existence of those guys. Why? Because there are primary and secondary historical accounts of their existence. The exact thing the Jesus story doesn't have.

And no, I don't take the bible as proof of the bible. No one who isn't already a believing Christian would.

[Sinti]

204. Thank you for your effort

Please keep in mind that I am not saying the Biblical Jesus did not exist. I merely added the caveat "if he existed," because I'd prefer not to spread lies if I can help it. In no way is it meant as an insult to anyone. I used to be a Christian

I hope you didn't expect me to go visit your apologetics sites and accept what they say on face, without any critical thought of my own.

Secular sources

Josephus - Yes, Josephus refers to a Jesus, but this is not the Jesus of the Bible. This is Jesus, the son of Damneus, who is made high priest by the King of Agrippa. The Biblical Jesus is never made high priest of anything by the authorities. I'll happily agree there was a Jesus with a brother named James. There were many individuals named Jesus in that area at that time.

Josephus on the Death of James brother of Jesus, in 62 C.E.
Josephus, Antiquities
Book 20: chapter 9
CONCERNING ALBINUS UNDER WHOSE PROCURATORSHIP JAMES WAS SLAIN; AS ALSO WHAT EDIFICES WERE BUILT BY AGRIPPA.
1. AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity . Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, ; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king , desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrin without his consent. (24)
Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.

Tacitus - writing in 115 CE states that Nero blamed the Christians for the fire. In the passage used by the apologetics Tacitus refers to " one Christus" being crucified by Pontius Pilate in Tiberia. Christus is Greek for "Messiah." Many false profits were put to death under Roman rule. I will say that the word Christian, as derived from Christus, did come into use during Tacitus time, though it was not in the common vernacular yet.

Tacitus never mentions the name "Jesus" in all of his works. There is only this ONE reference to one Christus. If Tacitus is actually referring to the Biblical Jesus, why didn't Clement of Alexandria use this work when he was compiling references to the existence of the Biblical Jesus from pagan sources in the 3rd century CE?

"Nero looked around for a scapegoat, and inflicted the most fiendish tortures on a group of persons already hated by the people for their crimes. This was the sect known as Christians. Their founder, one Christus, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. This checked the abominable superstition for a while, but it broke out again and spread, not merely through Judea, where it originated, but even to Rome itself, the great reservoir and collecting ground for every kind of depravity and filth. Those who confessed to being Christians were at once arrested, but on their testimony a great crowd of people were convicted, not so much on the charge of arson, but of hatred of the entire human race."

Pliny the Younger - became Governor of Bithynia (part of Turkey) around 110 CE and wrote a letter because he was having trouble with the Christians. The Christ he refers to is the person in the Bible, but it in no way gives any proof that the Biblical Jesus existed. It does prove Christians existed.

Phlegon - was born in about 80 CE. There were Christians in the first century CE, and he seemed to be telling their stories, a tall tale about an eclipse and such.

Lucian - lived from 125-180 CE. This individual is a Satirist. He is making fun of Christians. Historical personages making fun of Christians does not provide proof of the Biblical Jesus. He has no reference and probably does not care for the historical accuracy of the crucifixion. He's a comedian. This is an example of ridicule:

... the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.... Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshiping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws.

Celsus did most of his writing between 175 and 180. He does not like Christians and, while he believes there was a Jesus, he believes Jesus was the illegitimate son of Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera. Again, this is proof of Christians existing.

"Above all Christians are disloyal, and every church is an illicit collegium, an insinuation deadly at any time, but especially so under Marcus Aurelius. Why cannot Christians attach themselves to the great philosophic and political authorities of the world? A properly understood worship of gods and demons is quite compatible with a purified monotheism, and they might as well give up the mad idea of winning the authorities over to their faith, or of hoping to attain anything like universal agreement on divine things."

Mara Bar Serapion - Nebuchadnezzar sacked Jerusalem in 586 BCE. There was no "Jewish kingdom" as referenced in this letter after 586 BCE. One would have to assume that this statement refers to a Jewish King prior to 586 BCE, and not the Biblical Jesus. It's the only way it makes sense. Judea was under Roman domination during the life of Jesus. Read what the letter from the prisoner encouraging his son to take the straight and narrow path actually says:

What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given

Thallus - At best, Thallus was born in 80 CE or later. He is either a contemporary of Phlegon or comes after him, there were Christians then, and he was repeating their myths. This does not give historical proof of Jesus. It's a repetition of the myth with the eclipse and such.

According to your Christian Apologetics Site Carm:

His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, who wrote about AD 221, mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun.

*snip*

The oddity is that Jesus' crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon. It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus' mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus' crucifixion. It may not have been.

The excerpt they quote is this one:

Jesus Christ, according to the prophecies which had been foretold about him beforehand, came to his passion in the eighteenth year of Tiberius, at which time also we find these things written verbatim in other commentaries of the gentiles, that an eclipse of the sun happened, Bithynia was shaken by earthquake, and in the city of Nicaea many buildings collapsed, all of which agree with what occurred in the passion of the savior. Indeed Phlegon, who is an excellent calculator of Olympiads, also writes about these things, writing thus in his thirteenth book...

I will happily deal with the "20 Early Christian Writers Outside the New Testament" part later. Tired now. The Gospel of Thomas... are basically extra-Biblical texts that the Vatican tossed out, because they no longer fit their doctrine, so technically they are not non-Biblical references. And Obviously, the New Testament Gospels in Bible are in the Bible and cannot be considered non-Biblical.

[Sinti]

210. I do not wish to convert Christians

to some other religion, or to non-religion. I love them as is, no problems, especially if they follow the 'do unto others' version of Christianity - if they follow the other style I would try to change their minds.

I think it's a great offense to purposefully repeat untruths to my fellow man. Truth matters, I believe it is incumbent upon me to speak it as I know it.

Therefore, I apply the same standard to Christians that I apply to Scientologists. I feel this should be acceptable to a rational person. Just because Tom Cruise says we have body thetans that we have to exorcise from ourselves (or however they put it), does not make it so. No offense intended to Tom Cruise or other Scientologists. I could say I'm a fairy with glittering golden wings all day long, I might even believe it under the influence of LSD, but that would not make it true for others.

Heretical Sources

(they're heretics now, then they were good Christians):

Clement of Rome - is the fourth Pope. The Pope saying the Biblical Jesus existed doesn't really prove anything.

2 Clement - is a sermon that was written in 140-160 CE by an anonymous Christian author and improperly attributed to Clement of Rome. A Christian saying 100 years later that the Biblical Jesus existed doesn't really prove anything.

Ignatius - was the pastor of a local congregation who died 110 CE. Christians existed in 110 CE, I will agree to that - proof of the Biblical Jesus is not proven by that fact.

Polycarp - the bishop of Smyrna who lived from 69-155. The existence of Christians and the existence of the Biblical Jesus are not synonymous.

Martyrdom of Polycarp - the fact that a Christian bishop died for his beliefs in 155 CE is not a historical reference to the existence of Jesus. I could be executed tomorrow for my belief in the Kingdom of Faerie, but that would not make it exist for others.

Didache - you mean the 1st Century book that shows people how to be Christian? If so, are you insulting me?

Barnabas - I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Are you referring to the Gospel of Barnabas, which states that Jesus was never crucified, but rather it was Judas Iscariot that was crucified in his place? Are you referring to the Epistle of Barnabas, which was likely written in Alexandria around 130 CE? The first would be a heck of a stretch to offer up as proof a extra-Biblical book from the 6th or 7th century. The second is a letter written by a Christian, it is a historical reference to the existence Christians, not of the Biblical Jesus.

Shepherd of Hermas - Three witnesses say that Hermas was the brother of Pope Pius I, that would place this Christian writing in about 140-160 CE. Again, a Christian writing about his religion does not equate to historical proof of the Biblical Jesus.

Fragments of Papias - in the second century a Christian named Papias wrote down oral traditions he heard. A Christian writing about Christianity does not equal a historical reference for the Biblical Jesus.

Justin Martyr - 100–165 CE a Christian apologist writing that "Christ was born one hundred and fifty years ago under Cyrenius." is not a historical reference for the Biblical Jesus. It is a historical reference, and does refer to the Biblical Jesus, but it is merely further proof that Christians existed, which is not in dispute at this time.

Aristides - is another Second Century Christian Apologist. Again, a Christian writing about his religion is not historical proof of the Biblical Jesus.

Athenagora - I'm assuming you mean Athenagoras of Athens 133-190 CE. He never mentions the Biblical Jesus at all in his writing. The words "Son of God" in ancient Greek-Speak simply mean holy man. The closest he comes to speaking of Jesus is reprinted below. If you insist that he means literally son of god, he could have been speaking of Dionysus or Hercules, both of whom were claimed to be sons of god.

we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal... by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being... for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son... But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father... it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence... but inasmuch as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things...

Theophilus of Antioch - converted to Christianity after studying the Scriptures. Many people converted to Christianity after reading their books. In what way does this offer historical proof of the Biblical Jesus?

Quadratus - was the bishop of Athens after Publis. The work attributed to him states that those healed or raised from the dead by Christ were still living after 100 CE - 70 years later. This fact alone brings the whole work into question for me, regardless of the fact that a Christian writing about Christ does not prove the Biblical Jesus existed.

Aristo of Pella - was a Jewish Christian in the mid second century who wrote an apology against the Jews. This is not a reference affirming the existence of the Biblical Jesus, this is a guy trying to say that Christians are not Jews.

Melito of Sardis - the writings of a Second Century Christian bishop are not a reference affirming the existence of the Biblical Jesus.

Diognetus - Are you referring to the Epistle to Diognetus? This would be a letter written no earlier than 130 CE by a Christian attempting to separate Christian beliefs and practice from that of the pagans and Jews. How is this reference affirming the existence of the Biblical Jesus?

Gospel of Peter is an apocryphal text which places responsibility for the crucifixion of Jesus upon Herod Antipas rather than to Pontius Pilate. So, they church did not include it in the Bible. This would actually add credence to my point of view that the Biblical Jesus is a creation agreed upon by the originators of the church.

Apocalypse of Peter was written in about 100 CE that is a good example of popular Christian writing at the time and gives descriptions of heaven and hell. This is in no way a historical reference affirming the existence of the Biblical Jesus. If you are offended, please look back to my initial statement about Scientology.

Epistula Apostolorum is a 'letter' describing Christian theology, and criticizing Gnosticism. It was written in about 150 CE, based on Biblical and extra-biblical work. This is not an historical reference for the existence of the Biblical Jesus.

Christians saying that Christ existed, getting their ducks in a row, or explaining themselves to the non-Christian world does not offer proof of anything, other than that there were Christians in the second century. That fact is not in dispute. Hence, I will continue to maintain the caveat of "if Jesus existed."

[prestonPjr21]

215. Sorry!

I`m a little confused,the writers you are quoting sound like the same people who are writing hear-say about Obama...

Don`t sweat it, trying to disprove Yeshua... sit back and just have patience, we all will find out the real scoop!

[Sinti]

216. Hi, welcome to DU

I don't wish to disprove Yeshua (Jesus) - it was a historical issue. I agree, patience is the best way to deal with things. :hi:

[prestonPjr21]

221. Bless You!!!

And Thank You...O8)

[comrade snarky]

142. Seeing as how the whole AD calender thing

Came into common use between the 7th and 9th century I'd have to say no. Before that most of the Christian world used dating based on the Roman emperor or the local Roman consul or what they thought was the year of Earth's creation.

Charlemagne is the one who popularized dating based on AD in Europe.

There is history there, just not history that points to an actual historical Jesus.

[AlbertCat]

147. we use his birth to determine our calendar all these years later?

You're joking right?

[TicketyBoo]

199. No. I'm not joking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnkvfyp3p9U

[comrade snarky]

201. How do you figure that as proof?

It makes no sense to me.

Oh, and while the link to Bing there gives a rough sketch of Christ's life in a smooth velvety voice, you may want to reconsider spokesman. Ol Bing had "issues" with the gay and liked to get a little slappy with his kids.

[TicketyBoo]

205. I know the history with Bing

and his older kids.

Not many of his generation were too accepting of "the gay."

I love Bing Crosby. Reminds me of my childhood.

Could have found just the text, but mostly on Christian sites, so thought "Der Bingle" would be less offensive.

No winning here, I reckon.

If you don't go with a headbanger or a rapper, you're too conservative?

I like Bing Crosby and Perry Como. So sue me.

[comrade snarky]

209. So, when asked a question about your claim

Which had nothing to do with belief or non-belief all you do is proselytize?

Neat. You must be a treat at parties.

I assume at this point, because you have been asked several times to back up your statement and have failed completely to do so or to even attempt a reply, that there will be no reasoned argument forthcoming. It's not that I expected one but it is surprising to see a person argue themselves into an indefensible corner with their first post on a thread.

Believe or don't, I could not care less. However, when you make ridiculous claims of fact like stating the use of the Anno Domini calender is proof of a historical Jesus expect to be challenged.

[TicketyBoo]

218. I do believe that it is strong proof.

We have based our time keeping on the life of this single individual.

[comrade snarky]

220. We have a very different definition of proof

Mine requires... well, proof. At least evidence.

The Jewish calendar is dated from what they thought was the creation of the world. Is that proof the earth is 5770 years old?

Are the names for days of the week and months proof of astrology and the existence of Roman and Greek gods?

If the A.D. dating is evidence for the historical Christ then surely this evidence is just as compelling? If Christ, why not the Roman god Saturn for whom Saturday is named?

The problem here is you take the existence of Jesus as an article of faith. That's fine, as I said above I do not care in the least if you do. The problem arises when you or others feel a need to "prove" your faith correct and attempt to shape history to fit your specific narrative. I think we've had more than enough of that in the world.


Have your faith, if it helps you, then great but don't expect anyone else to accept false assertions because they help you believe.

[TicketyBoo]

222. I really don't expect

anyone to accept what I believe to "help me" believe. Enough people believe it that I have no need to proselytize.

I believe because so many others do. I find it more incredible that so many learned people, past and present, would accept the truth of Jesus Christ if it were not true than the fact that He was real. I mean, something happened. His disciples did not die for their beliefs for a lie, after all.

[comrade snarky]

223. And yet you do proselytize

And argue by appeal to authority.

After all no belief held by many people, for thousands of years has ever been wrong. Not one people were willing to die for anyway. That's why Islam is true right?

[TicketyBoo]

226. I'm speaking of the people who died

for Christ who actually knew him.

But we have other things to worry about in the here and now than my belief or your lack of same. Right?

Which is why, no, I do not proselytize.

[comrade snarky]

227. Then the reason you posted ol' Bing

Telling the inspiring story of Jesus is what? Filler? Something you thought would be new to us unbelievers?

Or was it supposed to open my eyes to the glory of Christ?

Never mind, this is going nowhere. You don't answer questions or back up statements with anything more than "I believe" even when those statements make claims of historical fact and you have been asked directly to explain what you mean. Based on that I find you are either being consciously evasive or are unable to tell the difference between history and faith.

Either way it's impossible to have a 2 way conversation.

[TicketyBoo]

228. Okay.

As I said, there are other things more appropriate to be discussed here than my faith or your lack thereof.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7058346&mesg_id=7058664

[comrade snarky]

229. That's not what I've been discussing

I've been trying to talk about history.

[comrade snarky]

130. You wont get one

There is no contemporaneous mention of Jesus in any of the Roman records and they wrote down pretty much everything.

You can find a couple of passages in Josepheus "History of the Jews" that mentions him but that was written in 93 AD. Rather a bit late there. The first Christian gospel by Mark was probably written 35 to 60 years after Jesus is said to have died. That's like me writing about JFK using only the stories his friends tell about him.


Edited for dumb mistake :dunce:

[AlbertCat]

145. Few realize the insult...

... religion is to the rational.

So take your stupid lecture elsewhere and whine. Let's compare him to Scooby Doo. It doesn't mean any of them existed.

Jesus , if he did existed, certainly was not what is described in the Bible. There is good evidence he never existed.

Nor Solomon, nor Moses, nor David and a whole host of characters made up to make a point. (like god....made up)


Be insulted...I don't care. That's your problem, not mine. Why should I have respect for something that condemns me to eternal torment....ETERNAL.... just for who I am? I don't.

And, no, I don't hate religion. It's actually kinda interesting from a human behavior POV. But it doesn't get a pass. It gets the same scrupulous look as everything else. The fact it can't hold up to examination is not my fault. It has no authority over me and I don't have to defer to your fragile feelings about it.

Maybe I'll give it a bit of a pass when the religious give reason, skepticism and empirical evidence the same respect you demand. Lord knows (any Lord) you guys benefit greatly from what the employment of those things have yielded (science). Little baby Jesus did not give us the light bulb, y'know.

Cheesus and the eternal Gouda on a cracker!

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

207. You are entitled to your opinion sweetie

:hi:

[Sinti]

14. These people are not Christians

they are a large, brainwashed cult. Some of us have been banging the drum about them for years now. They need some sort of intervention, or mass deprogramming. They are getting very dangerous.

Edited to add:

Sarah Palin is from this cult.

[comrade snarky]

98. No, they are Christians

The Islamic purity police in Saudi Arabia are Muslim.

The Hindu nationalists in India are Hindu.

The Orthodox settlers in the West Bank are Jewish.

And the Army of God in the US is Christian.


I agree with you they are dangerous and getting more so as they lose any grip on political power. However, there's no arbitrary line at which you can say "this person is a real christian and that one is not" just because you don't agree with their interpretation. They self identify as Christian. That makes them Christian extremists.

[Sinti]

100. I did not intend to make a "no true Scotsman" argument

My intention was to say that this is not a "Christian" thing - they are extremists, and it doesn't matter what book they use to excuse themselves. People have been very tolerant of them, precisely because they say they are Christians. The mainstream faith does not feel threatened by them.

There is a tendency to think and say that they are not dangerous. When they speak in praise those who "become violent in your faith" and voice similar rhetoric that appears to the outside world as promoting violence, it is not because they are following faith. Additionally, I am not misunderstanding what they say because I am not Christian.

I hear this very often from mainstream Christians, "when they say 'his blood will be spilled upon the ground' they don't mean it literally, you just don't understand because you don't belong to their church." Therefore, I want the mainstream to understand that they do mean it, it's not some confusion on the part of non-Christians.

Many people here and elsewhere, myself included, have spent years trying to explain to others that these people mean business and are very dangerous. It's a huge cult that uses Christianity as cover. Just like Wahhabi Muslims are a huge cult that use religion as cover. In this nation, continuing to describe them as 'Christians' excuses them and gives them cover for further actions, because we are a majority Christian population. Nonviolent Christians feel threatened by us (persons of other faiths), rather than by them.

[defendandprotect]

107. While I largely agree with your concerns, unfortunately the right wing has

financed much of this religious violence --

See my post above --

However, as long as people support organized patriarchal religions -- middle men --

we are not going to have democracy and we will have continued violence.

Male-supremacy isn't democracy!!

[comrade snarky]

126. We agree for the most part

And you're right. It doesn't matter what book they use or creed they spout, they'll find something to fill that need to be right. To be better than their neighbors.

You make a good point about excusing then because they are Christian but I'm coming from a slightly different angle. I see mainstream Christians disavowing the nut-balls. Brushing them aside because they aren't "real" Christians. Then the extremist Christian brethren, the ones who haven't quite openly called for or done violence yet excuse their own behavior by doing the same. Everyone gets to be innocent because the one who bombed the clinic wasn't a real Christian.

I think it's better for the ones who actually try to follow the teaching of that Jesus guy to own up to the extremists in their midst. Christian terrorism exists, and when someone on the fringe kills people the spiders who sit fat and happy at the center of the web should get all the credit they deserve for their violent rhetoric. There are too many excuses made for disgusting behavior because it wears a robe, collar or a funny hat.

Like you I've been following these people for many years and I don't like the direction the Christian right is moving. As they lose political power they are radicalizing even further. The dehumanization of non-Christians is increasing, making violence all the more likely. Frankly, if they don't manage to stop some of the legislation currently in Congress and regain some sense of power in the 2010 election I expect some violence. They think they are under attack and many believe their non-violent options are dwindling.

[Sinti]

157. Fair enough

Have you had any luck actually getting through to mainstream Christians on the ground? I started with a "hey, look what your brethren are doing" approach, but got brushed off as being reactionary, and not understanding. So, I picked up the approach of, "this is highly improper, look at what your brethren are doing." Of course, neither approach works for me :(

I will probably be among the first they murder, not just because I'm a deist/pagan/whatever, but because I find them completely intolerable and I live in Idaho among them. Their flock is programmed, the pulpit has a total lock on their information. Most of their followers are terrified people who think the devil is constantly out to get them.

Any ideas on how to break through their Iron Curtain?

[comrade snarky]

167. Sadly no...

I'm in San Francisco and that type of christian is a much rarer bird around here. The few I do run into are usually through work and that's not a time I can really get into it. Them being clients or employees of clients.

The only way I've been able to actually engage with the fundamentalist types is to let them try to convert me and steer the conversation to theology in general then segue into what gets done in god's name. It works on a 3 hour flight but I sure wouldn't want a fundamentalist neighbor thinking I was a potential convert. I mean after the flight I can just walk away and be done with them. Some of 'em start to get angry when the conversion doesn't take. Idaho is beautiful but I don't envy you those neighbors.

One thing to think about, never underestimate the power of camouflage. If the worst happens and things go real bad if you know what how they think you can always *convert* until you escape. I'm no Thomas Moore, I'd have no problem lying to a guy with a headman's axe.

Renounce my heresy? Sure! Right up until you put down the gun and turn around. Then smack with the cricket bat!

One of the many benefits of Atheism. No god to be mad if I betray him. :evilgrin:

[prestonPjr21]

197. First of all...

I would like to try to make you understand. A true believer in Christ would never consider associating with these what ever they are who call themselves christians. A true believer stays far away from religious tradition and teachings. A true believer could never be a republican. I am a believer, and know that if a person says he or she is also, and follow republican beliefs, they are a lost confused liar. Like I said, I am a believer in Christ and I tell you the truth; I would call a fellow Democrat non believer a brother or sister way before a so called christian republican! The two words together sound like an oxy-moron to me! Jesus was always hanging with the non believer, that is why he came...

[Sinti]

211. Welcome to DU n/t

[AlbertCat]

150. is not a "Christian" thing

It' a very Christian thing. They've been doing this kind if thing for CENTURIES!


Actually....it's a religious thing.

[defendandprotect]

106. Much of the violence and violent notions of religion are right wing financed . ..

including US/CIA setting up Taliban/Al Qaeda --

and creating violent Islamic textbooks and shipping them into ME.

See my post above ---

[wroberts189]

16. knr

[mmonk]

17. We can start shutting this manure down by having anyone who sees

one of these bumper stickers write down the license plate numbers and send them into the secret service.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raster]

21. What?

:wtf:

[Hissyspit]

43. It was a reference to the YouTuber's audio tag at the end of the video.

An audio clip from Fox News. Go watch the video all the way through again or fast-forward to the end.

[Fire1sKid]

19. WHERE DOES THE GODDAMN SMITH ACT COME IN!!!!!!????

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[DesertFlower]

20. this is getting really scary. nt

[Number23]

22. Schaeffer: "To his supporters, it's time to stop sniping at him. It's time to support our President

Hell Yes. It's PAST time actually.

Happy to rec.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

45. Having problems or questioning certain policy decisions of our President

is okay. There is nothing wrong with it. But even if I am not totally happy with the way things are going, I still support my president and I am glad he is our President. There is nothing wrong with dissent, there is nothing wrong with disagreements and questions on policy. I understand why Schaeffer said what he said but there is nothing wrong with being unhappy with policy in this administration.

I still support my President and I am disgusted with these American terrorists speaking of hurting our president. It is sickening.

[onestepforward]

30. Yes, this is the American version of the Taliban.

They have been spoiling for violence since Obama took office and it has only gotten more extreme with time. I think that Schaeffer's call for their various leaders to speak out will unfortunately go unheard. No one has spoken out against it so far which really speaks volumes.

As an individual, I'll definitely keep my eyes open and report anything suspicious, but what more can be done?

(Edited typo)

[DUlover2909]

K&R Sadly. This is scary.

Run time: 08:55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZzsjULXDnA   Posted on YouTube: November 18, 2009 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: November 18, 2009 By DU Member: DUlover2909 Views on DU: 20547

 
:dem: :scared:

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our fourth quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
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[mzmolly]

34. Chilling...

:scared:

[Hekate]

35. I watched it twice. Schaeffer is extremely worried. His message to us on the left is very cogent...

When these nutballs are calling for Obama's assassination, why are we expending so much energy on tearing him down ourselves?

Schaeffer is not calling for Obama-worship, and you know it. He IS calling for us to spend more time speaking in defense of Obama AND speaking out against the nutballs.

Speaking out against the haters who want Obama dead would take paying attention to what they do and when, and it would take persistent effort to write LTTEs, phone TV stations every time they glorify the haters, and generally not let any of this crap go unchallenged.

WHERE ARE OUR TALKING POINTS? We need to get back into the mode of rapid response, the way we did in the campaign.

"Campaign" is a military term. Coincidentally, these people are at war with us. We need to wake up and act like it.

Hekate

[vaberella]

38. He's worried and now I'm beyond terrified.

I wonder how many on DU will wake up or how many will just shake it off and say, "This comes with the territory."

[BlancheSplanchnik]

52. Hekate, you are right.

:cry:

I want to see the sick fucks revealed, in mass media. This sick extremist hold on media has got to stop.

[Lena inRI]

61. Cogent point, Hekate. . .

. . .this religious fanaticism Schaeffer warns us about is really a war against both Obama and what Obama represents. . .

. . .in other words, focus on the real enemy as the COALITION of religious fanatics AND powerful bankrolling supporters that want Obama killed the closer he gets to passing health care reform and withdrawing from Afghanistan/Iraq. . .

religious bigots and merchants of death see Obama as their common enemy.

. . .Palin, Beck, Limpballs, O'LIElly, Teabaggers are all bankrolled to LURE PUBLIC ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE REAL THREAT TO OBAMA'S SAFETY. . .

like gypsy thieves sending in distracting children as the parents rob the house or wallet. . .

IMHO, this American coalition is far more menacing than Al-Qaeda because they're allowed to be too close for comfort.
**********************

Consequently, you're absolutely correct to say the winning 2008 campaign team should be reactivated.

Namely David Plouffe should be rehired as the communications director vacated by Anita Dunn.

Replace some of the bipartisan bullshit advisors and get PRODUCTIVE strategists NEXT TO OBAMA. . .like replace Robert Gates with Wesley Clark.

Talking points are impotent at this point, IMHO.

Time to make the PRODUCTIVE DECISIONS with PRODUCTIVE ADVISORS.

Team Obama, are you HEARING Frank Schaeffer and us? ? ?

You do have surveillance watching the psalm 109.8 tshirt group as much as AlQaeda? ? ?



:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

[dgibby]

128. I agree!

This is a very large movement. They operate under many different names (harder to track), but are all intent on one thing, establishing a Theocracy here in the states.

You're absolutely right when you say they're at war with us. Anybody who doesn't believe what they believe is the enemy, hence the signs, "The only good liberal is a dead liberal".

Even more disturbing, they are not alone. The militia movement is growing, and new groups are sprouting up regularly.

CNN is reporting today about the formation of a new group called Oath Keepers. They are recruiting among law enforcement and the military, and they are vowing to neither obey or protect the POTUS if they think he is going against the Constitution (or, rather, their interpretation of the Constitution). Although they don't purport to be a religious group, it's obvious that they are a radicalized far right group. They are particularly obsessed with the right to keep and bear arms, and plan to resist any effort to change gun laws. The founder of this group is Stewert Rhodes, a Ron Paul staffer and former Army paratrooper.It's also important to remember that the Fundies are actively involved in influencing the military. Left unchecked, these two groups could wreak havoc with the military chain of command.

In response to the radical rheotric being spewed by these groups, guns and ammo are being sold at record rates.

I feel certain that we are headed toward another Civil War, only this time it won't be North vs South, it'll be Right vs Left, and it's going to get really ugly before it's over.

[ChiciB1]

152. Hekate... I Agree With You Analysis! I Have My Differences Of Opinion

about Obama, but I won't get on a Rah-Rah train. I certainly don't wish for any harm and he needs support. But on policies that I don't agree with I MUST say so because of WHO I AM!

Thanks for your comments!

[The Wizard]

36. A threat to national security.

Republicans can rely on the insanity defense. Shutting down their propaganda arm would be a good start, and jailing Beck for inciting insurrection would help national security.
The Republican Party is a threat to national security.
The time has come to shun Republicans. Talking to them only serves to legitimize and enable them.
That they are well armed and mentally unstable is cause for our concern.

[SergeStorms]

37. Religion..........

the greatest breeder of hate in the world. Take away the tax exemption status from these charlatans. We must fight back against them, because they will never end their crusade for their homogenized, narrow minded, religiously insane view of "utopia". Why is it that religion turns some people into raving lunatics? :shrug: They want the same thing our enemies want: the total destruction of our country supplanted by some batshit crazy religious terrorist state.

People like this are the reason I turned my back on any form of organized religion at a very early age. Critical thinking skills are not their strong suit.

[paparush]

40. K & R

[emulatorloo]

41. terrifying - kick and rec n/t

[Politicub]

42. This type of Christianity is a cancer on humanity

Its influence was responsible for the dark ages and countless murders of "heathens." It endeavored for more than a thousand years to keep women silent and subservient. It is used as a weapon to bludgeon minorities, and it seems a great swath of its adherents would like nothing more to erase science and replace it with a myth.

And now, its text is being used to sow the seeds of assassination.

And all the while, President Obama is working to make the US, the world a better place. He exudes the mythical Christian "values" far more than nearly any evangelist, church or denomination ever has or ever will. He truly is a good man that wants to finish the work started in the great society and give the poor more dignity.

It angers me that whoever these so called christians are embody such hate. And they will cover their rhetoric and actions with the fig leaf of religious freedom. Sickening. If you want to see the face of terrorism, look to people such as the ones described by Mr. Schaeffer.

[Tsar_Bomba]

51. History tells me this IS christianty

and of all religion. Am I being prejudicial here? I don't think so.

[keith the dem]

57. Your way over the line...

Most Christians, most of the old line protestant churches are liberal. (check out the report done by mediamatters a few years ago.)

If nothing else, churches provide community and a safe place for the vast amount of poor in our country.

These right wing idiots no better represent the church than the Taliband represents Muslims.

[Politicub]

58. But does the good outweigh the bad?

Based on the evidence throughout history, there have been times when Christianity has been on the liberal, fair side of an issue.

But there seem to be more instances of where Christianity has done great harm to the human condition that still haunts us today.

[eagertolearn]

71. As my grandfather said religion was invented to control a wide

body of people. I didn't get it while in my 20's but now this totally makes sense.

[keith the dem]

80. I think I would change that slightly to

"Religion has been used as a tool to control a wide body of people."

[keith the dem]

79. Don't know

But people can use religion to reinforce their own hates and prejudices. This is the lowest common denominator religion. I think those hates and prejudices would be there with religion or not.

Christianity is at its best when it actually listens to what Jesus actually said and stretches people to look beyond their hates and prejudices, To do things like care for the poor and to accept those different from themselves. My own inner city church has a homeless shelter that invites the homeless into our church, we are an "open and affirming" church on the gay issue. As a white straight suburban male, I often felt stretched, but that stretching seems to be the most spiritual part of my religious experience.

On balance, I don't know which side is ahead, but there were wars and hate long before the major religions were formed.
Unfortunately, the easy,dumbed down, lowest common denominator seems to often get more people. Beck beats Maddow in the ratings, Professional wrestling beats PBS, etc.

I think that the most churches have been totally out to lunch on the gay issue. This is turning so many good moral people away from religion. How can a good moral person honestly believe that "those people" don't belong. Consequently many turn away from the church because of the same morality they may have learned in Sunday school.

[eagertolearn]

224. i agree that . Its not really religion itself that is at fault buts its the people

who have used it....I don't think that you have to belong to a church though to have good values and to learn how to be good to others. I have tried to show my kids by example instead of telling them to be good people and help those who are not as fortunate. We tried church but it just wasn't a fit, but we are very involved. Some of the examples of hate and prejudice being shown in some churches are not what I would have expected. Some of these people are the most judgmental of those who are different. Now many churches are not like that at all and are wonderful with community involvement and feeding the homeless (my brother was fed by many churches until he died and for this I am very thankful.

[Enthusiast]

93. It has been the institutions of

Christianity at fault. But you are right, so far the bad outweighs the good-historically.

[Enthusiast]

91. You have it right,

Keith the dem. There are churches, then there are churches. You can recognize the extremists because they talk hatred and intolerance.

[eagertolearn]

225. Why can't the members of this church see this?

[Fire1]

109. THANK YOU!!! n/t

[Politicub]

59. For the most part, I agree with you

I changed the subject line from my post from Christianity to "this type of christianity," as to not send this string of conversation down a dead-end.

And based on the other reply to your post, someone has already jumped in to jump up and down and say, "no, it's not. don't say that." It's the same circular argument that stops those of us on DU who want to look at Christianity through a critical lens.

[rucky]

66. Think that if you want, but is that the battle to pick?

Doesn't it make more sense to enlist the Christians who see their religion being coopted by violent loons, and make an appeal to them to help us heathens fight the dangers from within? Given his background and his current form of faith, Frank Shaffer can convince alot more people with his message than you can with yours - even if yours is no less true.

[Politicub]

81. Good point - we need to pick our battles and know who our allies are

I do think there are moderate or liberal christians who are sick of seeing their faith co-opted as a political weapon. Let's hope that they drown out the intolerant, fundamentalists and win out in the end.

But this type of open season against the President concerns me greatly. I don't know if we have the luxury of waiting for Christians to police themselves.

[Mad_Dem_X]

46. I'm not a terribly religious person, but I pray

every night that President Obama and his family are kept safe. These far-right terrorists scare the hell out of me. I hope the Secret Service is paying attention.

[Tsar_Bomba]

47. Time to declare the Bible as a hate screed

Time to show right wing christians especially the clergy there will be a price to pay if they continue their foolishness.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

49. +100000000000000000 n/t

[Douglas Carpenter]

53. Frank Schaeffer is still a church-going Christian. He has disavowed fundamentalism and the

fundamentalist right which he and his much more famous father, Francis Schaeffer helped found.

His most recent books on the subject are

Patience with God: Faith for People Who Dont Like Religion (or Atheism)

amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0306817500

and

Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right, and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back

link on Google Books:

http://www.google.com/books?id=mJIKlq2v6WAC&dq=Frank+Schaeffer


.

[fascisthunter]

62. let's not condemn the bible or all those who are christian

it will not help if we do. And I hope those who are christian, who come here to read, do not think your post is indicative of all DUer's views towards christianity.

Let's deal with the extremists only....


BTW - welcome to DU

[AnotherMother4Peace]

176. Very nice post, thank you. nt

[olegramps]

55. Is it time to launch a campaign to counteract these extremists?

Maybe we could have a delicious religious war. The Evangelicals vs. the Christians against the Old Testament God of Wrath. That would be ironic. Imagine Christians under the banner of Peace on Earth and the other under the banner Death to the Tyrant bashing each other to death.

[anachro1]

56. Like it or not, THIS is America's idea of Christianity

I am sick and tired of "Christians" telling me how these acting out idiots are not the "REAL Christians". To this I say BULLSHIT.

As long as these deluded morons claim their Jesus, as far as I am concerned, we are viewing EXACTLY what Christianity means to American these days. And if you are not fighting to UNDO all these evil actions, you are just as complicit.

Kill any progress.
Kill all hope.
Kill health care.
LIE to get heard.
Kill the black president.


Today's Jesus can kiss my balls.

[rfranklin]

63. Does that make Jesus a teabagger?

Just wondering!

[anachro1]

65. Apparently

even He doubts Obama was born in the USA.

[get the red out]

76. Jesus wasn't an American

So he would have probably even supported health care for all.

[Fire1]

112. THAT'S for DAMN sure! n/t

[defendandprotect]

103. Unfortunately, they have from the beginning been financed by the RIGHT WING . . .

GOP gave start up funds to the Christian Coalition --

Scaife and other right wing wealthy financed Dobson's organization --

and Bauer's --

Meanwhile US/CIA created the Taliban/Al Qaeda, using it in Afghanistan to "bait the

Russians in . . . in hopes of giving them a Vietnam type experience" ---

Additionally, US/CIA is responsible for creating the violent Islamic movement in ME --

US wrote and printed those violent Islamic textbooks --

See info below . . .


FIRST PART OF THIS DEALS WITH HOW US/CIA CREATED TALIBAN AND AL QAEDA . . .
TO BAIT RUSSIANS INTO AFGHANISTAN . . .!!!


SECOND PART DEALS WITH THE TEXTBOOKS --



The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_i... ...


---------------------------------------------------

SECOND PART --


The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.


Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.h...

[Fire1]

111. All liberals/democrats are not atheists. I am a Christian and

I am far from a deluded moron. BULLSHIT back to ya.

[TicketyBoo]

135. Same here. n/t

[jillan]

60. I think that if anyone of us sees this bumper sticker on a car, we should write down the license

plate number - or memorize it if we are driving, and contact police? Who should we contact?

God Bless Rachel for exposing this!

[KansDem]

67. Camera-phones?

Take a photo and turn it over to the proper secular authorities...

[jillan]

118. Ohhh - GREAT idea!

[h9socialist]

92. I agree!

Send it to the Secret Service and the FBI. Lord knows, if it's in some podunk small town, chances are that Andy and Barney are just as whacked out as the nut-job with the bumpersticker.

[TicketyBoo]

136. Not a good idea.

For the reasons in this article:

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/11/16/biblical-anti-obama-slogan-use-of-psalm-1098-funny-or-sinister/

Let the Secret Service go about its business of ferreting out true threats. This would heap lot of extra work on them. Every bumper sticker out there is not going to be a potential assassin. As a matter of fact, a potential assassin isn't likely to advertise that fact with a bumper sticker.

[graywarrior]

64. So how would any of us handle this if we see a sticker like this?

With violence? With rage? Do we start confronting these people? Do we chase them down with pitchforks? They have the rights of freedom of speech, yet they are advocating violence and death, so should we consider it a threat and take steps to stop it?

This is so messed up. The rage I feel toward these people is immense.

[LoZoccolo]

68. Maybe we should start (legally) surveilling them ourselves, and become familiar with...

...when to report them. Might be difficult because they could be concentrated in some pockets away from us, but it might be a good idea to wat h your neighbors. In that case it would be best not to confront them, but as The 48 Laws of Power says: "Pose as a friend, work as a spy.". These people already know they're opinions aren't liked, but you might be able to give them enough rope to hang themselves if you can get them to talk to you.

[graywarrior]

70. Watching them is akin to being watched by the Nazi's in the 30's & 40's

They need to be called out in public, put on the spot, made to explain what they mean by that sticker on their truck.

No one is addressing the leadership of this fiasco. I swear to god the Koch Brothers are behind all this.

[LoZoccolo]

72. You can get the reason for the bumper sticker in one of two ways.

You can do it in the way that they're likely to flick you off and put you on their list and that's it, or you can do it in the way that they start talking and let several cats out of the bag, allowing you to do more damage. They already know that people disagree with them. If they cared about that, they wouldn't be talking about bloodshed.

[graywarrior]

83. Indeed.

You are very wise. I tend to want to be in someone's face.

[Drunken Irishman]

175. I would confront them.

[KansDem]

69. As an American born in Hawaii..

Pruden, take your Hawaii-bashing and go fuck yourself...:grr:

[Mari333]

73. "God told me to do it!"

How many times have we heard that.

knr

[get the red out]

88. Yea, but it's only BAD if it's said in Farsi or Arabic

:sarcasm:

[Enthusiast]

95. Why the sarcasm?

It's the truth.

[Maccagirl]

75. The Secret Service must be one stressed-out group

and with good reason. The fact that this is not really discussed and thus, tolerated, is beyond sad and frightening.

[dgibby]

132. I just hope none of the SS has been co-opted by any of these radical groups. n/t

[Wednesdays]

77. Well, for one Schaeffer must be commended for his courage

I mean, this is much like a former mafia member coming on national TV to denounce the mob. Schaeffer now has a target on the back of his head, and he knows it. These are (as has already been illustrated) unhinged and heavily-armed thugs.

To them Schaeffer is worse than a liberal--he's a traitor. On another thread, someone wrote (relating to a different subject) there's a reason captured uniformed enemies are imprisoned, while spies are shot. Let's hope he has a good team of bodyguards.

:scared:

[Enthusiast]

96. +1, good point. nt

[comrade snarky]

131. If Schaeffer is smart and I expect he is

He's taking a different rout to work everyday. He knows the potential for violence in that bunch.

That's why I so applaud his speaking out so clearly and forcefully. It's a heroic decision.

[V_Byl]

82. I can't believe these nut jobs are becoming more main stream...

I was in my teens for most of the Clinton years. My Mom and Dad got a divorce, and towards the end of high school I ended up moving in with my Dad for my senior year (I was a typical teenage know-it-all type...) We're from Michigan, and my Dad was so into this far right-wing nonsense then, he was even in the Michigan Militia. At the time I was young and impressionable (I mean, this was my Dad), and I actually bought into a lot of their crap.

I'd seen the true underpinnings of these movements years ago. The racism, violence, and religious fundamentalism. At the time I was part of it, but once I moved out on my own it didn't take me long to overcome their brainwashing bullshit. The craziest thing I saw was their association of something called the Christian Identity Movement, which was basically just some Nazi BS - but I couldn't believe the passion with which these people believed.

It's unbelievable to me what people will justify in the name of religion, even in this day and age. WTF is wrong with people? I am seriously on edge wondering if this country is going to hold together for the duration of Obama's administration, or if we're going to end up in some kind of lunatic civil war, with these moron, brainwashed idiots fighting our government so that their delusions of the big bad gov't declaring martial law will come true. Ugh.

Cheers to you Frank Schaeffer for coming forward and saying what you're saying. I doubt I'll see you on Faux News or any of the other MSM outlets - but this message MUST BE HEARD. I can tell you first hand these right-wing religious fundamentalists really believe what they're saying.

I remember the crazies who were in the michigan militia were so excited when Tim McVeigh bombed the Oklahoma Federal Building, I shudder to think what would happen if they do actually rally on of their crazie brain washed followers to assasinate our President.

[gratefultobelib]

123. Good post. Thanks for your insight, chilling as it unfortunately is.

[comrade snarky]

151. Thanks for posting

Your insight, having spent time around these people is valuable. I cant imagine anyone holding that against you. Well... anyone you should pay attention to anyway. :-)

And welcome to DU

[valerief]

84. Isn't advocating the assassination of the president a hate crime? Or treason?

I don't understand why our soldiers aren't taking out the people trying to get the president murdered.

[dgibby]

134. These radical religious groups, along with the miltias,

and a new group called the Oath Keepers, are actively recruiting the military and law enforcement organizations.

[ensho]

85. the religiously insane are dangerous and the light should be shone

constantly on them and their criminal intent.

thank you Rachel.

[sellitman]

86. Sick.

So sick, there are not words that describe my feelings adequately.

[On the Road]

87. Wow -- That is Francis Schaffer's Son!

Schaffer was one of the more educated and intellecutal evangelicals in the 70s, and I read a bunch of his stuff in college. I knew someone who had been at his L'Abri community in Switzerland. One of the best figures in that movement by far.

Frank apparently split with his father on a number of issues, among which was leaving the Presbyterian Church to become a Greek Orthodox.

[h9socialist]

89. Yes! These ought to be investigated by the Secret Service . . .

I know of people being investigated for far less -- I turned one in back in the 1980s. (The guy worked in my office and made threatening remarks against Reagan). I told my boss, and he arranged for the investigation. This was in Washington, DC mind you, and the guy who said it was delusional, and he ended being separated for reason other than the threatening remark.

There is no scarier scenario than what these idiots seem to be suggesting. Anyone who was alive and old enough to remember the events surrounding November 22, 1963, can attest to the horror that these racist, Bible-toting nut-jobs seem to think is okay.

President Obama is the greatest breath of fresh air this nation has had in decades. He inspires hope. We cannot lose him the way we lost John Kennedy. It is deeply disturbing when I hear reports like this. I was 9 years old when Kennedy was killed, and he was my hero even before the assassination. When the nut-jobs put out bumperstickers that are so vile, I take it personally. It's their way of trying to intimidate me and everyone else who wants a more democratic and humane country to live in. We will not let it happen again!!!!!

[defendandprotect]

90. More people have to wake up to the threat from patriarchal religion . . . the crusades never ended..

RCC was complicit in genocide vs Native American --

Africans enslaved in America --

Civil War -- Assassination of Lincoln --

Campaigns against ERA financed with tax-exempt dollars --

Campaigns against homosexuals financed with tax-exempt dollars -

Certainly there was an involvement with the Vietnam War --

and on and on --

JFK?

Certainly the right wing RCC is at war upon those within the church who want

it to be a democracy.

Male-supremacy is NOT democracy --

[KatyMan]

94. on the Houston Chronicle site

a person on their message boards, on the comments section of an article about Obama, wrote 'I hope this nightmare is over soon'. I wrote back saying "I'm sure the secret service would be very interested in knowing exactly what you mean by that", and that person got all flustered and said, well what are you stupid, we have elections in 4 years, that's what I meant. Sure you did. This, though, happened 2 or 3 weeks ago, so I guess it's gaining momentum among the wackos.

[defendandprotect]

102. How big a jump from "Pro-Life" murder of doctors, to assassinating a president?

Or at least egging others on to do it -?

Secret Service should be investigating --

but, remember LBJ's Secret Service were complicit in JFK's assassination!!

[TicketyBoo]

143. Not allowed here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

Posts about so-called "conspiracy theories" are not permitted on Democratic Underground, except in the September 11 forum.

[euphoria12leo]

104. The nightmare being over

is like the new code words. I keep seeing this type of language used. However, on MSNBC the comment was 'I can't wait for this to be over in 2012' then they added I'll be glad when he's gone. I saw this several times before. It's almost like someone has told them to add 2012 to their comments. This is scary because these people are looking for someone to do what they themselves want done. I pray for our President even though I'm not a religious person and I know I'm not the only one. People in other countries are praying for him too. And that's another thing how will the world react to the U.S. if something happens to President Obama.


:cry:

[indimuse]

97. he does have real enemies..

RW in congress..Fox..limbaugh..Religious right! They are all culpable!! knr!

Enough is enough!!!!!

[Syntheto]

110. Why are you more concerned...

...with Christian fundamentalists than Islamic fundamentalists? Because you can tag so-called 'Republican (read White) Values to it', whereas Islam fundamentalists will most likely vote Democrat? Or is it just because you're scared shitless to offend the latter because they will actually kill you?

What a bunch of cowards! Why not denounce all religions? Their is no god, or any other stupid supernatural being, no allah no nothing. You're just cherry-picking Christian fundies because they're American.

It's disgusting, as are all these posts.

[dgibby]

140. Because we're discussing the video in the original post,

which is an interview with a man who helped found, then repudiated, the movement, or didn't you notice?

[comrade snarky]

153. Let's compare the number of Christian terrorist acts

In the United States to the number of Islamic terrorist acts and then you can tell me why in the fucking hell I shouldn't be concerned about both?

[nankerphelge]

113. The CSM article...

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/11/16/biblical-anti-obama-slogan-use-of-psalm-1098-funny-or-sinister/

[Overseas]

114. K&R. Loved his point about us urging moderate Muslims to repudiate their extremists,

so where are the moderate Christians repudiating their extremist element?

Why aren't more moderate Christian Republicans repudiating their extremists?

[teachthemwell15]

144. I've been asking that question for the past 30 years.

That moderate to liberal christians have been allowing the fundies to denigrate christianity into a screed on violence is beyond me.

Except for a few like Frank Schaefer, Jim Wallis, etc, fundamentalist 'christians' have not been challenged and have thus gotten away with their own brand of implicit terrorism.

Like others, Im scared too. There is no limit to the evil that unleashed fanatical passion can inflict on the rest of us. History spells it out succinctly.

[Overseas]

163. So you remember when the Republicans used to keep the fundies at arms' length.

Dubya broke that barrier, with his dear amoral pal, Karl Rove, egging things on. Purely to augment their power.

Or so I thought until we all learned more about "The Family" and all the things they've been doing behind the scenes for decades now. http://www.democracynow.org/2009/8/12/sharlet

[rocktivity]

116. Let's put Psalm 35, Verse 4 on some T-shirts, then

May those who seek my life be disgraced and put to shame;
May those who plot my ruin be turned back in dismay.


rocktivity

[JoeK]

137. Use of Psalm 109

My wife and I are thinking about a bumper sticker with a quote from another part of Psalm 109; specifically beginning with verse 28: They may curse, but you bless; may my opponents be put to shame . . . . . .for the Lord . . . .wil save him from his adversaries.

[Unca Jim]

119. Cafe Press

...has seemingly pulled all the items with the death wish on them that Rachel mentions.

Nice to see.

[dye]

186. cafe press - sort of

to be clear, they still have the images available, but when you click on them, you see "item not found".
one step in the right direction...

Thanks,
Dye

[NAO]

120. Ft. Hood Shooter was quoting Koran verses

and people are saying, "we should have noticed that, and acted". Well, here is our chance.

[HopeOverFear]

121. k and r

[PJPhreak]

124. I am shaking as I write this,

Never,Never in my short 51 years on this planet have I been so Absolutely Frightened!

I am at a total loss for words.

[Piewhacket]

154. Easy. Fear is the mind killer. Read 18 USC 871.

I think this stuff is a 'threat' within the
meaning of 18 USC 871. Holder needs to make some arrests.

Concerning fear, I find it soothing to think of
something scarier that didn't happen.

Like.. Sarah Palin as VP with an old sick guy as Pres.
OMG! Be sittin on the john when you think it though.
ooops, sorry.

:evilgrin:

[wial]

180. can we

make citizens arrests of people threatening the life of the president? Because they surely are, and they roundly deserve it.

[Piewhacket]

192. Good question....

the answer is... it depends on what it is.
its not the best idea, generally.
if imminent danger threatens, do what you gotta,
(even get the heck out of there).

The better answer is, if danger is not imminent
then report what you saw/heard to law enforcement,
in this case, the Secret service and/or FBI.

For those who really want to apply some pressure,
carefully document any case you believe is a
threat or a solicitation for assassination and
send it along to the Secret Service. Use good
judgment, serious things only, don't waste SS time.

For example, cars with threatening bumper stickers.
Photograph + date/time + place + car make and
license plate. It might be ok to leave a small
business card size note under the windshield
wiper of an EMPTY car stating simply that
"Your bumper sticker has been reported to
the US Secret Service. Have a nice day. "

A variety of that could be dreamed up for a t-shirt.
"Oh, what an interesting shirt (click)."
"Here is my card, do have a great day."
(Post it on DU! Hey!)

Don't get into any arguments or confrontations
though. Definitely not. So maybe omit the card.
Just a nice person out for a stroll taking
pictures of things in plain view.

If we start to see a lot of this stuff... I'd say
the AG better get off his bleepin bleep and start
getting serious and make some arrests to quiet it down.

[Touchdown]

141. The Victimhood responses in this thread are why nobody of faith is speaking up.

"They're not Christians!...REAL Christians!" Kind of absolves one of any responsibility when their faith is being co-opted by extremists. They're not part of my tribe! Really? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the acceptance of Jesus as lord and savior make one a Christian? I realize there's degrees of worship, like church on wednesdays, charity work, confession, communion, youth conscription, "good works" and all that, but the very foundation of what a Christian is is that one proclaimation, and everything else is built on top of that.

Atheists and other non-believers have weighed in on their assessments of Christianity and immediately the Christians play the victim, and start their defensive posturing, waisting energy they could be using to take back their own faith and fight against the real enemies. It's just easier to cry about being picked on by atheists than fighting for your own faith.

Christianity is a "To me" religion. Everybody has their own way of belief and form of worship. Yet, some still have long posts here explaining what a "True Christian" is. This is unproductive. Atheists are not your enemy. If you think so, then you are just as brainwashed to believe so as the nutjobs with these T-Shirts are. Atheists wouldn't be so defensive and critical of your faith if you were in charge (many of us wouldn't have fallen from faith in the first place), but you're too busy being offended by non-believers you haven't any energy left to fight those who co-opted your faith.

It's quite ironic, that while Christians are fighting back against the heathens in this thread, with cries of "Listen to Shaeffer!", that they are not listening to him either. Non-Christians have no business in your religion. We cannot help you take it back. That is up to the good Christians who don't like what's being said and done in your name.

[comrade snarky]

155. I've never done this before because I see it as a waste of time

That adds nothing to a thread.

But... having said that.


A BIG FAT +1 to you!

[Waiting For Everyman]

179. Easier said than done.

Taking back Christianity from the fakes presents the same problem as taking back politics from the RW. Why haven't the unbrainwashed been able to do that yet either? Why can't the Dem party be taken back from the Blue Dogs?

If it's so easy, show me the success in similar cases. Real Christians would love to do this. Where's the roadmap? Where are the trailblazers who have succeeded where we incompetents are failing?

[Touchdown]

193. The gay community did it many times.

Anita Bryant? Who? Oh' that woman who sings in nursing homes after we got done with her.

Laura Schlessinger? TV Show? Gone after 4 episodes.

Glaxo Smith-Kline? AZT and other hiv drugs cheaper, thanks to a little blood on their corporate entrances.

Your numbers are vastly larger than us gay people. You are mainstream. You have more power than you think.

I never said it'd be easy. But you're not making any progress by pouting at the mean old atheists who mock you.

The key is to knock them down one at a time. I'd start with Dobson. Plenty of dominoes behind him.

[Tx4obama]

148. Huffington Post has picked up on the story ....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/18/rachel-maddow-frank-schae_n_362415.html

[Detroit Progressive]

158. This Guy Is a Joke

It's pathetic to hear him say toward the end that liberals and progressives should not criticize Obama because lunatics in this country might do him harm. That doesn't even make sense, let alone the fact that nobody should ever let fear dictate who and what they criticize. This guy is a coward and he's still just as full of blind religious fervor as he was back in the 70's, only now it's being directed else where. I'm glad he's not being used as a tool by religion anymore, but he's still a tool none the less.

[comrade snarky]

173. Woo! whole lotta dumb there...

I'd begin what would surely be a long and pointless conversation but I doubt it will be worth it since I think your stay in these parts will be short.

hasta luego amigo!

[patrice]

198. Interesting choice for a first post. Curious: What's YOUR definition of "progressive"?

[Detroit Progressive]

217. A Progressive is...

A progressive is a person who's political views are not restricted by custom, tradition, rigid economic systems, and social norms, i.e. one who is focused on finding real solutions to real problems.

What did you find intersting about my first post?

[geckosfeet]

159. But he hasn't addressed my pet issues to my personal satisfaction.

How can I support him?

[democracy1st]

202. Goldman Sach admin

[geckosfeet]

214. Oooo. Scary.

[Poll_Blind]

160. That was REALLY worthwhile to watch- the gentleman was very eloquent. Thank you! n/t

PB

[prestonPjr21]

162. I`m confused

This should be directed toward Bush and and his gang. Because this prayer is directed toward the writers accusers.

[sarchasm]

164. This is the dominionist's dream ...

... and it's only one of the reasons I donated to DU today.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

185. Religious Fanatics acting like Terrorists

We have met the enemy.

[DutchLiberal]

188. You have far too much 'free speech' in your country...

Hateful, violence-inciting expressions like these wouldn't fly over here.

[comrade snarky]

196. Tell that to Theo Van Gogh

No country is free of these idiots.

[DutchLiberal]

219. Theo van Gogh was indeed spouting hate-filled speech through the media...

But nothing like what's on those bumper-stickers and T-shirts and what you hear on Fox News and talk radio in the US (all the assassination talk).

Of course I knew you were referring to Mohammed B., who killed Van Gogh. But where did you get the idea that Mohammed B.'s hateful Islamic calls for assassination of 'infidels' is allowed on tv, radio, bumper-stickers and T-shirts, like it is in the US?

[prestonPjr21]

190. Something needs to be done!

This radical far-out right BS needs to be delt with. I have never in my life of 43 yrs seen anything like this. This so called Godly christian (regime),that I am sad and shamed to admit I was part of. Most of my young life I looked at myself and my friends as republicans. Never again! So to quote sripture; When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I stopped those childish ways. 1 Corinthians 13:11...

[humbled_opinion]

195. My opinion the White House is playing too nice

Its time to crack a few heads. Put some of these people in jail. Get some lawsuits moving. There is a fringe on the right that cannot be reasoned with, they are filled with anger and hate they have zero tolerance and for the good of the many they need to be removed from this country.

Who would want to live in the intolerant society in their minds?

Thats not America.

[democracy1st]

203. WH is playing too Wall Street