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LongTomH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 04:16 PM
Original message
What the Hell Have We Become?
 
Run time: 03:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YV2ipcrjbg
 
Posted on YouTube: May 29, 2009
By YouTube Member:
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Posted on DU: May 30, 2009
By DU Member: LongTomH
Views on DU: 5633
 
GoleftTv's Mike Papantonio asks: "If we continue to allow the people who authorized torture to escape prosecution, and act like we don't care that it even took place, we have to ask ourselves "what the hell have we become?"
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. 5th rec - off to the greatest.
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tan guera Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I believe it's called a gulag
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. Yep, or a rogue state.
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quidam56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. What holier than thou, patriotic America does Hannity live in ?
it sure ain't My America. He says I am a tree huggin', troop hatin' lefty. Torture is a stain on My Flag not his...

http://www.wisecountyissues.com/?p=138
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ControlledDemolition Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bush and Cheney were desparate for a false 911 related confession! n/t
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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. almost as desperate as for a "cataclysmic catalyzing event"
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ControlledDemolition Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. 'A new Pearl Harbor', so to speak. n/t
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Torture and false confessions.

Anthony Hall: George Bush and Bill Clinton Do Toronto

snip

The so-called “conversation” between former presidents comes at a time when hundreds of millions of global citizens have developed the view of George W. Bush as the very embodiment of the rampant criminality that has been spewing unchecked and without accountability from the highest echelons of political, military and financial power especially since the explosive events of September 11, 2001. Al Capone’s Chicago was a mere kindergarten of lawlessness compared to the amount of corruption and violence generated on a daily basis primarily by those states and corporations that have become chief protagonists in building up and exploiting the lethal yet lucrative terror economy.

snip

The growing controversy over the law and politics surrounding the international crime of torture adds acid to the steady corrosion of the official narrative underlying the so-called Global War on Terror. This process finds especially clear expression in the revelations surrounding the case of Ibn Shaikh al-Libi. As revealed by Lawrence B. Wilkerson, former chief staff of the US State Department under Colin Powell, al-Libi was tortured in Egypt in April and May of 2002, “well before” the Justice Department had rendered any legal opinion” on the character and content of torture. The objective of this resort to torture was not to gain information about another terrorist attack on the United States but rather to force the victim to declare a connection between the Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein and those already blamed for the 9/11 attacks.

After being constrained in a coffin for seventeen hours and subjected to a “mock burial,” al-Libi finally put a stop to his suffering by uttering the falsehoods that his torturers were sadistically empowered by the White House to extract. Al-Libi told them that the Iraqi government had trained al-Qaeda operatives in biological and chemical warfare. This falsehood emanating from al-Libi’s bloodied and quivering lips provided the basis for the dishonest international representations made by the Bush White House at the United Nations and elsewhere during the winter of 2003 in the run up to the Bush-led invasion of Iraq. Al-Libi has recently turned up dead in a Libyan prison. The Libyan government has made the claim, questioned by many, that the prisoner took his own life.

This episode puts yet another nail in the coffin of the argument that the US government’s resort to illegal torture was all about saving civilians from catastrophe. The al-Libi case demonstrates that torture was embraced by the Bush White House not to save the innocent but rather to produce the fraudulent propaganda deployed to justify military invasions abroad and police-state incursions at home. The failure to identify torture as integral aspect of the lies and crimes entailed in Iraq’s invasion adds to the complicity of the media conglomerates in reporting as truth the Bush government’s lies that the regime of Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/20240
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. Bravo! for the Pap Attack
Mike Papantonio has got it right.

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
8. WHAT THE YOUTH AND PUNKS WARNED WE WOULD BECOME 30 YEARS AGO!!!!!!!!!!
Edited on Sun May-31-09 12:21 AM by omega minimo
Sorry for the stuck record but jeezus fukkin christ WE TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!!!!!
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tan guera Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. What have we become?
Our brother's torturer.
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Americans have become the new Germans.
Despised for their arrogance and ignorance the world over - except for their election of President Obama by a slim majority. That has redeemed the American people in the eyes of the world for the time being...
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I disagree
The election allowed the world a moment in which to hope that America might seek and find redemption. We have to make good on that hint of hope, or our reputation will be worse than it was before. We've been given a chance to do the right thing. Thus far, our leadership is failing that test, and the world is watching. They are still watching. They will not stop watching. Would you stop watching a people that tortured for years and then said "oh, fiddlesticks, torture is a drag, let's all forget it and plan a nice picnic. Invite the rapists and the torturers too!" Would you trust such a people to so much as water your lawn when you went on vacation? I wouldn't.
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. When I said "for the time being",
I meant just what you said: a momentary reprieve from being held accountable for their government's actions.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. Don't put too much hope in Obama-- the people need to act
http://covertoperations.blogspot.com/2009/05/ptb-and-their-op-plans-bush-op-plan-vs.html

The PTB and their Op-Plans: Bush Op-Plan vs. Obama Op-Plan -- and The Future

By The Anonymous Physicist

Bush is a Republican. Obama is a Democrat.

Bush is a moron, Obama is very intelligent.

Bush was a conservative, Obama is a liberal.

Bush only cared about the wealthy and elite. Obama cares about everyone.

Bush didn’t know/comprehend/care about the law. Obama is a Consitutional scholar—surely he will govern in a Constitutional manner.

Bush, and lackeys, OKed waterboarding, rape, sodomy. Obama says waterboarding is torture and he is banning it. (Note that I think it is possible that ALL the monstrosities perpetrated on e.g., Abu Ghraib prisoners, were OKed by the highest authorities in the Bush Administration, because of the following logic. In any jail, instances of such barbaric acts may occur, but how many times have you heard that the perpetrators felt safe enough to take pictures, and even post some of them on the internet? IMO, they were initially told that whatever foul acts they carried out were sanctioned by the highest American authorities.)

Bush and his lackeys, like Condoleeza Rice, claim if the President ordered a technique to be used, then it is legal, and not torture. Obama is now asking Congress to create a “legal regime” for the things he wishes to set in place things that are in fact unconstitutional. In other words--

Bush’s Op-Plan was that the “President’s ordering something, ipso facto makes it legal.”

The Obama Op-Plan now is to claim that if Congress-- or "if Congress PLUS the President-- orders something, that ipso facto makes it legal", regardless of what the Constitution says.

Obama wouldn’t have publicly cited this new Op-Plan if he didn’t have the Democrats/Traitors in Congress lined up to go along! Bush failed to obtain indefinite detention. Now BECAUSE OF THE ABOVE clever, SEQUENTIAL Double Op-Plan (a variation of good cop, bad cop), Obama seems to have Congress with him on this! Thus we are in the midst of a blatant, final, total destruction of the Constitution. Note— unlike many— I hold that the Constitution was always trampled upon in the USA, by the elite/PTB. This is demonstrated by the many acts of Presidential assassinations, poisoning of citizens, treatment of minorities, waging undeclared, unconstitutional wars, and interference in foreign countries-- and how the elite/PTB always got away with these murderous, unconstitutional acts. The difference between these last nine years-- with BOTH the Bush and Obama Op-Plans-- and the earlier history of this nation, is that the total destruction of Constitutonal rights and freedoms is now OPENLY proclaimed with the usual ruse of being done to “counter terrorism” and “safeguard the nation.”

Alas, the framers of the Constitution likely— being Freemasons etc.— put (at least) one fatal flaw in to the Constitution. They allowed Article I, Section 9, which states that “the privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.” Now “public safety” has morphed into “National Security.” And national security has become the excuse for not only terminating Habeas Corpus, but for shredding the entire Constitution. Again, behind the scenes-- in case they would be charged with treason-- I believe those who committed such acts as illegal wars and assassinations of Presidents, have always proclaimed that their acts were done in the interest of “national security” or “public safety.”

This article details a related and remarkable case in the federal courts right now. Here the Obama Justice Dept. is continuing an unconstitutional and anti-Constitutional claim against an Islamic group that was wiretapped illegally. First the history of this matter. After the Church Senate Committee, in the early 1970’s, uncovered massive, illegal spying on Americans by the CIA and other federal agencies, the Carter Administration saw the creation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) Court. The Feds must apply to this Court for prior approval to wiretap any Americans it wants to. The Court is itself virtually totally corrupt in that its members have approved every single request that was sent to it. With the exception of but one judge who resigned from it, its members are all likely intel agents or assets themselves. The case before U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker of San Francisco, involves the revelation that the Bush Administration spied on the Islamic Group without applying to the FISA Court-- which is a serious violation of federal law. I assert this is commonplace! From my own experience, after I once spoke publicly showing how President Kennedy’s Secret Service driver, William Greer blew Kennedy’s brains out after he first accidentally shot Connally (all of which can be seen and heard on audio-added Zapruder film), I was heavily wiretapped and then assaulted, and my home broken into and a mercury compound placed all over it. I seriously doubt that the federal Gestapo agencies involved whether CIA, FBI, NSA, Secret Service, other, or all of the above, went through the FISA Court to ask to wiretap me, before they did, and are. The USA is a totally lawless land, and perhaps always has been. But the remarkable thing in the case before Judge Walker now is that the Obama Regime is actually claiming that since the wiretapping of the Islamic Group was found out accidentally, and since the Bush Regime did not officially admit to it, and did not apply through official channels (the FISA Court), the Justice System cannot adjudicate the matter! They are attempting to render impotent, or non-existent, the entire third branch of the Federal Gov’t-- which has always acted as an interpreter and counter to any attempted power grab by the other two branches of the Federal Govt. So the Obama Op in this matter is continuing the Bush Op of claiming a supreme executive branch with no oversight from the Judiciary-- when it cries “national security.” Here they are OPENLY claiming what I have asserted assassins and traitors, in control of the American federal regime, have always claimed. When they (illegally) kill a President or (illegally) wiretap, poison or kill a citizen, and then merely yell “national security,” they want not to be charged, tried, or judged for their crimes. And they want NOW TO MAKE THIS OPENLY “LEGAL” and NOT SUBJECT TO OVERSIGHT OR CRIMINAL CHARGES. In other words, the Bush-Obama Op is to have an openly, and admittedly, total Supreme Gestapo Regime.

Ultimately, as many have realized, we have had the same overall Op-Plan as Nazi Germany did. The Nazi Regime itself burned down their Reichstag building as a ruse for “needing” to eradicate their constitution and “more effectively counter terrorism”; and officially blamed a patsy. In the USA, the Regime nuked the World Trade Center, had a China Syndrome Aftermath there for six months— until the radioactive fragments were carted away— and blamed members of an ethnic group and a world-wide religion, so as to have PERENNIAL war, and the destruction of constitutional rights and freedoms. There are several differences between the U.S. and German Nazi devolutions into mass torture, global war and loss of rights and freedoms for their citizenries. The American people have had the benefit of previously observing this, as recent German history. And the Nazi Regime only partook in these acts AFTER publicly creating mass concentration camps, and taking away the guns of the citizenry.

So in the U.S., despite having the benefit or observing the same Op-Plan just a few decades earlier in Germany, and despite still having the tools to effect change as the founders crucially created the second Amendment for the people to fight encroaching tyranny, the American people-- as nearly all Germans did-- do not act, they just wait and hope…

The Bush-Obama controllers-- and yes, I ask that we henceforth put these two Administrations together as one-- apparently still fear to try to get the 100 million legal guns, owned by the citizens, removed from them. This indicates they fear they might lose in a blatant confrontation this way. Ultimately it may come down to a mass uprising of the armed citizenry, and/or the people in the military/intel agencies acquiring some guts (perhaps for the first time), and acting on their oaths to defend the Constitution against all enemies-- especially the domestic terrorists, in seeming total control since their traitorous acts on November 22, 1963. All arbitrary laws recently enacted against terrorists could be employed against the Bush-Obama Cabal, and also against those in the Congress and Supreme Court who also are part of the treason against the American people and the Constitution. Citizens of other countries must try to get their own gov’ts to charge the Bush-Obama Cabal with: crimes against humanity, torture, waging aggressive war, genocide, and other crimes.

If the people of the USA ever wake up and act-- before it is too late-- and fight back and win, a new Constitution would need to be created that would not have any “exception clause” allowing for the negation of the rest of the Constitution for reasons of “public safety” or “national security.” INSTEAD, it would contain clauses that ENFORCED the AUTOMATIC examination, detention and trial-- for such acts as assassinations or “suicides” of high govt officials, seeming terrorist acts against the citizenry, even attacks from other nations (note the Pearl Harbor set-up)-- of the highest benefiting government officials themselves. Historically, false-flag Ops have virtually always been perpetrated by such regimes as the U.S., the U.K, and Nazi Germany. These regimes carried out terrorist acts themselves; and blamed innocent patsies to facilitate waging war on other innocents; and created a terror regime in their own land. Clauses and methods, to counter this common blueprint of the PTB, need to be incorporated into a new Constitution.

Doing nothing only emboldens our terrorist-rulers more, as the recent Obama plan to install a new “legal regime” to allow permanent detention proves. Note the clever paradox: the use of the word “regime,” and not e.g. “administration,” is flaunting the illegality of it; yet it is coupled with the word “legal”. Perhaps we all need to follow the example of Michael Collins of Ireland. Against all odds, he used great cunning and daring to devise methods to defeat the British terrorist regime who occupied his land, and mass-exterminated his people, for nearly 1000 years. I urge everyone to read up on him, see the movie, and do as he did-- ACT.

And, as he did, try to get people in the military and/or intel agencies to join you. Try to get these people to obey their oath and remove the present, terrorist regime that has assassinated our rightful Presidents, mass murdered our fellow citizens in false-flag operations, and who are now blatently removing the last vestiges of our innate rights and freedoms. The sequential Bush-Obama Op-Plan was likely thought up a long time ago. As I indicated recently, the likely, threatened shoot-down of Obama aboard Air Force One on April 27, signaled his total acquiescence, and the likelihood of him going all out to please his masters from now on. So, in a sense, this obscene, blatant, new tactic of trying to create a “legal regime,” in cahoots with the Congress, for indefinite detention of human beings— who may well be innocent patsies who could prove that Al-Qaeda is Al-CIA-duh— was predicted.

President Obama-- if he ever did-- will not likely ever publicly utter another word of truth. National leaders all over the world are not allowed to utter a public word of truth. BTW, if you haven’t seen it before, here is video proof of the alteration, by the BBC (MI5) of Pakistani opposition leader Benazir Bhutto saying Omar Sheikh (likely Pakistani Intel asset— which means run by MI6) had killed Osama Bin Laden. This was two months before Bhutto herself was assassinated. And it appears that Bhutto was forced to retract this in her last two months; but perhaps the PTB saw that they could never trust her again not to speak some occasional truth.

Whether Dick Cheney ordered the Bhutto hit-- as some claimed Seymour Hersh said and then retracted-- or more likely the hit was ordered by London, is not the point here. Her stating that the alleged leader of the (fictional) terror group Al-Qaeda had been dead for some time, likely got her killed by British (or American) controlled assets in place. America’s, and Britain’s, bogus, perennial wars on terror would be untenable if the alleged leader of the alleged main terrorist group is acknowledged to be dead. And if the entire, alleged, foreign, bogeyman group is acknowledged to be fictional, or COMPOSED ENTIRELY OF DEAD PEOPLE, the “terrorist” acts committed on American or British soil would be realized, by their citizenries, to have been committed by their own regimes.

Obama’s “second chance” of not getting shot out of the air, and subsequent total cave-in is similar to Reagan’s acquiescence to GHW Bush’s controlling the Presidency, after Reagan was allowed to survive his attempted assassination. President Kennedy, on the other hand, did not cave in after the Bay of Pigs set-up, and paid the ultimate price. We are seeing Obama’s true colors, and the puppet strings behind them. Things may be far worse now, because-- we have had a bunch of mostly traitorous, fellow Democrats take over the Congress, who will now try to give Obama, and his masters, this new coveted “legal regime.” Unless the people, or the state gov’ts, or the military, step up and refuse to go along, and instead fight back.

Life won’t be worth living in this coming total Gestapo-land. Neither can an honest or moral person allow his/her “Govt” to continue to mass murder his/her fellow citizens in more false-flag operations, or to wantonly rape, plunder and mass murder around the world in his/her name. The German Nazi Regime was terminated by the British-American Regime-- that actually created, and emplaced it. Terminating the terrorist British-American regime itself can only come from within.
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. Yeah, all those BOOMERS you love to hate warned you all about this.
Did anybody listen? NOOOOOOOOOO.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Not all. Some on the tail of the Boom did while the rest went to sleep..........
:thumbsdown:




The "you love to hate" is misdirected.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
10. K&R This is why the GOP
has the smoke screen going full on. They are in a "protect Cheney and Bush at all costs" mode. And they will use anything in the MSM to distract us from the real issues.
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wial Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
14. The Germans
had their asses handed to them in WWI, and went crazy a few years later. They started out crazy though after not having a nation-state of their own for too long. The US at least had some lasting pride in democracy lingering after Vietnam. Not enough to prevent us from allowing the installation of Reagan.

In a way we owe Bush a debt. If he hadn't caused the situation of aggravated danger of permanent soul-loss that made the election of Obama necessary and perhaps insufficient, we might have put a rumpled angry veteran of our failed war in power, seemingly populist but harboring far right wing ideologies.

What did we just lately dodge the bullet of becoming.

Still, unless Obama wakes up to the extent of the sickness in America's soul this has caused, America will have become a dangerous zombie on the world stage.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
15. What have the NEOCONS turned America in to?
And will the democrats we elected have the guts to finally stand up to these war criminals?
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
16. Another Rec... Still What The Hell Is Going To Be Done??? I'm Feeling
so lost and so depressed! I'm glad to hear louder voices though!

Maybe, in time THOSE IN POWER will come to see what this is doing to so many of us who just can't seem to "take it anymore!" I just don't know!!!
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annm4peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
17. after torture exposed 6 years ago, still debating it day after day

Day one should have started the prosecution. It is beyond sick we are debating.

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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
18. ...
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santamargarita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
21. That's what happens when the Grandson of Hitler's Angel steals an election
:think:
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mtf80123 Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
22. Kick
and Rec
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
23. the real people do care-- but the evil fucks that control the politics and media want to cover it up
and cover up all the other evils the PTB have perpetrated.

This is the way it is, and it will get worse unless we do something.
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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
24. It's good that the question is being asked but the answer is pretty clear.
I think we know on some level what we've become -- what we've been becoming for some time now. Let's just say the words and get on with it.

And, depending on the "we" in question, it's more than acting like we don't care. It's an active cover-up on the part of the Congress and WH, too, and an embrace of some policies that continue to violate international law.

As for another "we", we the people, it's a confirmation that we don't have the system of government we say we have is a lie, if we can't even hold war criminals responsible. It means that we are beyond the rule of law.

I think, on some level -- yeah, most of us know what we've become. The good news is, there are those of us who will not let this pass and we won't allow ourselves to get caught up in the manufactured distractions of empire.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
27. .
:-(
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neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
28. The problem with such a broad brush is...
the word "we" happens to group in the same people who actively demonstrated in the streets against Iraq when the invasion started. They were also the same ones who protested the Bush regime and the Supreme Crooks who enabled it. In further deference to them, I'm not one of those who went out to the streets. I'm the guy who did little if nothing other than complain. It isn't what we've become, it is what too many of us have already been.
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SusanaMontana41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thanks for posting this, LongTomH
I have no idea who Mike Papantonio is, but that will be remedied today.

K&R
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Iwillnevergiveup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
30. Way back on August 13, 2007
Jane Mayer wrote a piece for The New Yorker entitled "The Black Sites." Multiple sources told her a few days of "mere" sleep deprivation would render detainees into psychosis.
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MindMatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
32. I really like his reports
He is definitely one of the A team. We can never overstate the role that KO has played in America's awakening, but KO's style is really off-putting to those on the other side. I'm sure they would no sooner listen to KO than I would listen to Limbaugh.

And to some degree that is also true of Cenk.

But Pap and Rachel have a style of presenting the same information in a way that is more accessible to the other side -- more like to get them thinking.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
33. K & R. n/t
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