TYT: Juan Cole Joins Cenk To Try And Answer -- How Will The Gaza Conflict End?

[ihavenobias]

Run time: 18:53 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-ZE0ubdCPI   Posted on YouTube: January 07, 2009 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: January 07, 2009 By DU Member: ihavenobias Views on DU: 1319

 
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PS---Be sure to watch and the video where

Finally, keep in mind that you can always catch The Young Turks weekday mornings on XM 167 and 24 hours a day with (free) streaming video at www.theyoungturks.com

[Wetzelbill]

1. K and R!

[Poll_Blind]

2. I cannot imagine it will be long before CNN or MSNBC snaps Cenk up.

He's very good at what he does. Not just Middle East topics, either, but I think he mostly done a great job on everything I've ever heard him speak about. Hell, even when I've disagreed with his opinion, he's still made himself clear enough that I see his line of reasoning.

PB

[ihavenobias]

14. I think he'd be a better fit on cable (if we're talking about him having his own show)

But as a guest commentator, sure, MSNBC would be great. He's been on Countdown a couple of times but it's been a while.

And he's been great on CNN-HNN, including when .

[spiritual_gunfighter]

3. I very much hope the Israel apologists on DU watch this

big time K&R

[JDPriestly]

8. I support Israel and watched this. Here is my reaction.

If all Hamas is offering in exchange for Israel's recognition of a Palestinian state is a "100-year truce," then what choice does Israel have but to fight Hamas now. Israel has superior fire-power at this point. The worst that can happen if Israel loses is that it no longer exists as a state. The best -- it can get Hamas to enter into serious negotiations for a two-state solution. Israel has everything to win by hammering Hamas hard. It is a terrible fact. But so it is. Israel is surrounded by enemies and fighting for its survival.

Remember, the Jewish people (and I am not Jewish) have been persecuted, reviled, hated, murdered, imprisoned and remained solidly Jewish for a long, long, long time. Their cultural, religious and national identity is what keeps them going as a people. They have not forgotten the Holocaust. In fact some of them (all over age 63) survived the Holocaust. They are not going to give up.

So, if the world wants peace in the Middle East it will just have to find a better solution than statehood for Palestinians and a "100-year truce" for Israelis. The Palestinians have to be kidding. Either they don't really want a Palestinian state or they are absolutely nuts.

[no limit]

10. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you on the points but why do you people...

constantly have to bring up the Holocaust when defending Israel? That was a long time ago and Hamas certainly had nothing to do with that. So tell me, what in the world does that have to do with what is happening today?

The fact is that half of Gaza's population is under the age of 18. The fact is that since 2000 only 15 civilians in Israel have died as a result of these rockets yet 650 civilians in gaza have died just in the last week and a half; thousands more die on a regular basis from malnutrition and disease because of the blockade israel has put in place, and hundreds of thousands of others face various other hardships nobody in this country could possibly imagine. Do you really think trying to play the victim card by constantly bringing up what happened in nazi germany is a rational thing to do on your part?

[JDPriestly]

12. Why do I bring up the Holocaust?

Because the Holocaust is the reason that the United Nations (with the USSR taking the lead) decided to create the state of Israel.

A year after WWII, a million Jews were still wasting away in prison camps in Europe with nowhere to go. No one knew what to do because they could not safely be released into the European countryside. And other countries including the U.S. were overwhelmed by the task of finding housing and jobs for returning troops and their young families. The Jewish people pressed for the establishment of a Jewish state in Israel.

At the time, Israel/Palestine was a British protectorate --- thanks to the fact that the British and the allies defeated among other countries, the Ottoman empire which had governed the area in which Israel, Jordan and "Palestine" are now located. The Palestinians again offended the western allies in that the allies believed that the spiritual leader of the Muslims of Palestine sided with Hitler during WWII. So the Palestinians were not the most popular people with the allies during or after WWII, and the allies included the USSR, if you remember.

The partition of the area was ordered and the State of Israel was mandated AS A RESPONSE TO THE HOLOCAUST -- as a refuge for the victims of the Holocaust. That is the history that those who take the Palestinian side wish to ignore. Yet it is the most relevant fact in understanding what is going on there now.

In my view, those who take the Palestinian view just want to continue the Holocaust. That is why I speak out so strongly in favor of Israel even though it is not popular to do so.

In fact, it is the Israelis who are most to liken to the American Indians. The Israelis were forced out of their homes, robbed and killed by the millions. The Palestinians, especially the Muslim Palestinians, are protected by their Arab neighbors across the Middle East. In the entire world, the only haven that Jews can call their home, their land, is Israel.

Hamas is objectionable because it is an organization of right-wing religious extremists. I do not understand why DUers support it. DUers would certainly not support any American organization that was full of right-wing extremists. Egypt does not even want the Palestinians that adhere to Hamas because they are such religious fanatics.

Israel is defending its very existence against an extremist right-wing group. I don't like what is going on, but to my knowledge no one yet has suggested an alternative that is humane and that can insure the existence of Israel. Hamas is so extreme that it rejects the idea of a two-state solution. Israel has no choice but to strike out while it still has the superior military force.

[no limit]

15. Israel is defending its very existencve against an extremist right-wing group?

holy fucking shit! Please excuse my french but I nearly fell out of my chair when I read that. You can't be fucking serious. We created one of the best militaries and special forces in the world in Israel and their very existance is threatened by home made rockets that have only killed 15 people in the last 8 years or so? There's that victim card again.

Saying Israel shouldn't bomb schools full of innocent children makes you a hamas supporter? There's the straw man card.

This is why I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you point by point. Trying to argue with a brainwashed Israel supporter is like trying to argue with a brainwashed Hamas supporter. Both, in my opinion, are psychopaths. Only a psychopath would see a school full of innocent children get bombed and then say "fuck it, they have the right to do that because of Hitler". You make me sick.

[JDPriestly]

16. I posted this before. It pretty much says what I think. I am not a neophyte to this.

I am waiting for one Hamas supporter to suggest and alternative course of conduct for Israel to its present course. Is Israel supposed to just shrivel up and die and let Hamas take over?

I was born in 1943. In the late 1940s and early 1950s my father and uncle played active roles in raising money and obtaining donations of food for refugees in various places. The Palestinians were among my father's primary concerns. I began hearing about the refugee camps shortly after the Partition, and what I heard was said with great sympathy and compassion. I also heard about refugees in other areas of Europe and the Middle East. In fact, several of those refugees or the children of those refugees and from later wars across the world have married into my family.

I had great compassion for the Palestinians when I was a child. But my compassion turned to skepticism when I noticed that others, including the Israelis, people from eastern Europe, the Armenians and the Vietnamese refugees had managed to deal with their statelessness and homelessness. The Palestinians are the only refugees who have managed to make some sort of profession of being refugees. They have land. Their population has nearly tripled if not tripled (presumably without immigration). The Palestinian people have stubbornly insisted on keeping on keeping on with a way of life that did not work. Meanwhile, people from countries like Turkey and the continent of Africa are working and living in Europe in order to provide a higher standard of living for their families.

I've just heard this complaint about being refugees from Palestinians too long. The Palestinians have adopted the victim mode. I can tell you that Palestinians received a great deal of aid over the years (some of which ended in the private bank accounts of "leaders" like Arafat). And they are, in theory, supported by some of the wealthiest nations in the world including Saudi Arabia.

Having been made aware of the problems of the Palestinians at an early age, I have become unsympathetic. It does not do any good to help people if they do not forgive, forget and help themselves. I know they claim certain rights to land. I could tell you quite a few horror stories about my in-laws (more than one) who were pushed out of their land. They picked themselves up and made good lives for themselves and their children. It's time for the Palestinians to start thinking positively about how they are going to improve life for their children. They need to stop being victims.

[no limit]

17. Wow, that's a whole lot of text

to justify the deliberate killing of innocent children. It's always the fault of the victim, Israel is never in the wrong. Those children were asking for it by seeking refuge in that school, amirite? And how nice of you to claim that it is time for them to starting looking out for whats best for their children. What you seem to be forgetting is that the entire area is made up o mostly children since most of the parents are dead from Israeli attacks or blockades of vital humanitarian aid.

Of course if it was Hamas that blew up a school full of israeli children you would be here screaming "terrorists!!!!!!".

I'm done, have a nice fucking day.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

13. Okay point taken

I have a very hard time with the manner in which Israel is going about achieving this goal. Bombing UN schools and killing children isnt going to help their cause and the world community are going to turn on them eventually as well (but never the US of course). If the Jewish people have been persecuted, (which I totally agree with) then isn't it their responsibility at this point to stop at least the wholesale slaughter of civilians in Gaza? Do you think that the Jews know what that feels like? Having your whole family wiped out? Watching your child's legs cut off after a bombing in their school. Yes they do, you would think that they would show a bit of humanity in their approach. You aren't going to kill the Hamas leadership bombing UN schools, and you cant argue anything otherwise to me.

[JDPriestly]

18. Israel has agreed to a two-state solution. Hamas is only willing

to give a 100-year truce. Israel does not have time on its side. It needs to have neighbors who enforce the neighbors' own laws and that agree to deal peacefully with Israel. Hamas does not want to do that. The Palestinians and Israelis need to live in peace, but the Israelis cannot live in peace without a peace treaty and a genuine commitment on the parts of its neighbors to live in peace.

I posted this elsewhere:

In the face of Hamas' religious fanatacism and insistence on the right of return, I have not heard any supporter of Hamas suggest a viable alternative to violence for Israel. Is Israel supposed to just shrivel up and die and let Hamas take over?

I was born in 1943. In the late 1940s and early 1950s my father and uncle played active roles in raising money and obtaining donations of food for refugees in various places. The Palestinians were among my father's primary concerns. I began hearing about the refugee camps shortly after the Partition, and what I heard was said with great sympathy and compassion. I also heard about refugees in other areas of Europe and the Middle East. In fact, several of those refugees or the children of those refugees and from later wars across the world have married into my family.

I had great compassion for the Palestinians when I was a child. But my compassion turned to skepticism when I noticed that others, including the Israelis, people from eastern Europe, the Armenians and the Vietnamese refugees had managed to deal with their statelessness and homelessness. The Palestinians are the only refugees who have managed to make some sort of profession of being refugees. They have land. Their population has nearly tripled if not tripled (presumably without immigration). The Palestinian people have stubbornly insisted on keeping on keeping on with a way of life that did not work. Meanwhile, people from countries like Turkey and Africa are working and living in Europe in order to provide a higher standard of living for their families.

I've just heard this complaint about being refugees from Palestinians too long. The Palestinians have adopted the victim mode. I can tell you that Palestinians received a great deal of aid over the years (some of which ended in the private bank accounts of "leaders" like Arafat). And they are, in theory, supported by some of the wealthiest nations in the world including Saudi Arabia.

Having been made aware of the problems of the Palestinians at an early age, I have become unsympathetic. It does not do any good to help people if they do not forgive, forget and help themselves. I know they claim certain rights to land. I could tell you quite a few horror stories about my in-laws (more than one) who were pushed out of their land. They picked themselves up and made good lives for themselves and their children. It's time for the Palestinians to start thinking positively about how they are going to improve life for their children. They need to stop being victims.

[Chulanowa]

21. Israel has definitely not agreed to such a thing

Israel's government mouths off about a two-state solution and then demands that such a solution be determined solely by the terms of Israel. No Jerusalem, settlements remain in the West Bank, Palestinians do not have control of their borders or airspace, etc. That way the Israeli leadership can shrug for the American cameras and, with soulful eyes say "We tried, but the Palestinians refused" and the American leadership and media fall over themselves to condemn the Palestinians for not agreeing to be fucked over.

With regards to your earlier post... I want to know why you expect Palestinian refugees to say fuck it and scatter around the globe while defending the right of Jewish refugees to have their own nation. Can you explain this double-standard to me, because I would hate to leap to conclusions.

[IndependentDem]

4. Great Segment! nt

[ihavenobias]

20. Glad you enjoyed it. n/t

[pleah]

5. K&R

[OhioChick]

6. K&R

:kick:

[Azlady]

7. K&R

[The Crazy Canadian]

9. I e-mailed Ana on TYT a few days ago and suggested they book Juan Cole as a guest.

Then today, I come here and see this video clip of the interview for the first time. That's pretty cool. I just emailed Ana, who is responsible for booking guests on TYT, and thanked her for inviting Juan Cole to talk about what's going on in the Middle East. You gotta love the internet.

[ihavenobias]

22. Good suggestion. n/t

[leftchick]

11. sadly it is not a dumb or short sighted policy

I wish it were that simple. :(

[ShadesOfGrey]

19. K&R