TYT: Georgia War is Bush's Chickens Coming Home to Roost

[ihavenobias]

Run time: 06:33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl2qzbCzzw8   Posted on YouTube: August 12, 2008 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: August 12, 2008 By DU Member: ihavenobias Views on DU: 2965

 








PS---Keep in mind that you can download the first hour of The Young Turks free every day through Itunes. Also, the show loops 24 hours a day at www.theyoungturks.com and runs live M-F from 9-11pm EST, with a post game show (politics with entertainment and current events) starting at 11pm. And there is great news for XM radio subscribers: The Young Turks are now on XM 167 Monday-Friday, 8am-10am EST! Finally, you can watch Cenk hosting every Friday at 1pm EST with great bloggers guests and others like Arianna Huffington, Rachel Maddow, John Cusack, Harry Reid and more.

[OhioChick]

1. K&R

:kick:

[King Coal]

2. Cenk nails it again. Only this time he used 100 penny nails and clinched them over.

[Tutankhamun]

3. Cenk may have coined a new phrase.

"...this president (Bush) has always been 'mentally underequipped'".

That's more accurate than calling him "mentally challenged", since the word "challenged" implies an obstacle one is actively working to overcome.

Where we see potential cognitive challenges in our president, he sees blessings. "Stay the course!"

[ForeignSpectator]

4. OMG, is that nickname thing true?! How is it spelled? "Poodeeboo"?

That is sooo another sign of at what development stage this man is, not older than 14 ( no offense to all those mature 14 year-olds ). And fits together perfectly with this narcissistic trait.

Anyhow, put bush and putin in a ring, bare-fist fight and putin would wipe the floor with bush. And putin is smart. And he is no member of the lucky sperm club. Way to go to call someone a nickname like "Poodeeboo" if YOU got NOTHING ( on a personal level ).

Disclaimer : I am in no way a particular fan of putin, rather the opposite but fact is fact.

[stark6935]

5. Oops,

that's what I have always said is going to happen. What is to stop other sovereign nations from declaring what is ok, or is not just like the USA did? They can just start torturing people now, and saying...this isn't torture. They could just go in and execute the Georgian president and what are we to say about it? We just look hypocritical and ignorant, and most the hillbillies that live in this country don't understand it.

[Hand]

7. "Pooty-poot"

I think it's supposed to be some kind of pre-adolescent fart joke. Funnier than a broken wrist... :grr:

[pleah]

6. K&R "mentally underequiped" yep!

And what is the oil situation in Georgia? Hmmm.

[libodem]

8. Zactly

[gateley]

9. K&R !! nt

[happygoluckytoyou]

10. BUSH MCCAIN.... the SHORT BUS EXPRESS

[Wetzelbill]

11. Not only that, and Cenk is right, but...

Putin for 7 years has been using the concept of the "War on Terror" to further repress Chechnya. That "poking" Cenk talked about? That poking all came about under the guise of the War on Terror. Anything one of these satellite countries do to piss off Russia and any response Russia gives, no matter how harsh, can always be countered by the exactly language Bush has used for Iraq and the War on Terror. And this is Russia's sphere of influence, they have viable realpolitik interests here. I was talking a little bit about what Cenk was getting at just yesterday. Bush's chickens come home to roost. When they invaded Iraq and conducted a preemptive strike doctrine under the umbrella of a rhetorical war, the Bush administration gave cover to any despot to do virtually the same thing.

Expect this to be the beginning. You won't see Georgia go back to the status quo, Russia is going to reclaim their satellite, and you can expect a few of the other countries to fall in line. Maybe they won't be overtly pro-Russia, but they won't step out of line too much. Also, expect Chechnya to get worse before there is hope of getting better. Bush has been so politically and diplomatically maladroit that this next president is going to go nuts trying to repatch everything. The good thing is that it will probably be Obama and that just on the basis of Bush being so bad the world looks on the guy as some kind of aberration, so I doubt they'd hold Bush's epic failings agains Obama too much. Lord help us if McCain somehow gets in. He's more dangerous than Bush, and probably by a long shot. Bush was a tool of neocons, McCain actually is one. And he's more of a warmonger than Cheney. You think Cheney is a psycho, guys like Randy Schueneman make him look like a dove, and so does McCain.

[iamthebandfanman]

12. Since the conflict is a civil war

im trying to figure out how its anybodys business... unless theres proof of genocide.

[DissedByBush]

13. Totally wrong

Show me one UN resolution telling Georgia to stop or else. Anyone? Anyone?

Bush's idiotic mistake was in committing the bulk of our forces to that quagmire in Iraq so Putin knows we're too stretched out to do anything about his rebuilding of the Russian Empire.

[DutchLiberal]

14. "Russia was right"?? What the f...?! Get your facts straight, Cenk!

"Georgia started this war." They acted on constant shooting from rebels in South-Ossettia, which is, last time I checked, part of Georgia. So if anybody has the right to decide whether or not to restore order in that area, it is the president of Georgia, okay?

"Georgia, on some accounts, shot at civilian targets." Okay, Cenk, on whose account? The Russians? The Russians bombed a Georgian village some months ago. The Russians shot down a Georgian aircraft flying over South-Ossettia, their own region, also a few months ago. Clearly they have been waiting for a chance to attack Georgia, so I wouldn't trust their side too much. By the way, have you heard Russia bombed the city of Gori, which isn't even in South-Ossettia? Over 10 civilians got killed, as did a Dutch cameraman. Right now, Dutch news outlets report, the Russians have driven all ethnic Georgians from the Georgian regio Abchasia. We call that ethnic cleansing.

Russia also bombed the airport of Georgia's capital Tbilisi, and they took over a Georgian military basis! Russia is actively trying to get control of Georgia, just like they did in 1979 when they invaded Afghanistan. They had no business being there in the first place!

But because their president gets support from George Bush and they had soldiers in Iraq, Georgia is the bad guy? Cenk, do you really hate Bush that much that you would sacrifice the people and the democracy of Georgia over that? We're talking about Russia, here! Remember what Russia is doing in Chechnya? Don't think they're right. Not morally, as you said, but also not geopolitically. Because they had no right to invade the sovereign country of Georgia.

[northernlights]

18. South Ossettia is a breakaway

republic...they broke away within 2 years of the breakup of the SU and formation of the republic of Georgia. So no, it's not ok that Georgia has a "right" to restore order there. Only the UN refuses to recognize them as a separate republic, just as they don't recognize Tibet and didn't recognize Taiwan. That doesn't make it right, it's just the way it is.

Notice that with this recent fighting, the Ossettian civilian refugees didn't escape by running to Georgia...they went to Russia.

Obviously both sides want the oil pipeline to the Caspian. I have no doubt Russia was ready for an excuse for a fight. So why did Georgia give them an excuse?

Let this be a lesson to Bush on Iran, who is also a strategic partner to Russia. Georgia overreached, and Russia pushed back and hard. Russia knows we're stretched too thin to get involved, they have the power to take over Georgia, but they didn't do that, did they? They pushed back and hard. Perhaps now the Georgia president will think thrice before interefering in Ossettia again.

[DutchLiberal]

19. Russia is trying to destabilize Georgia. They had no right going in.

If you say they did, then Bus also had the right to go into Iraq. Russia should have stayed out of Georgian internal affairs. I repeat: Russia has bombed the capital's airport and other economic targets; it has occupied a Georgian military post; it is ethnically cleansing Abchasia. We're talking about a Soviet-style invasion here!

[iconicgnom]

20. Nah, this doesn't compare to Iraq. It compares more to the Cuban missile crisis.

Georgia borders Russia. Bush wants Georgia as part of NATO. So does Saakashvili. Saakashvili opened the war by bombing a city in the "breakaway province" of Ossetia. That's a pretty provocative step to take against a region that, by overwhelming numbers, VOTED for independence almost immediately they could get their shit together after the breakup of the Soviet Union.

The citizens of South Ossetia have more affinity to Russia than Georgia. The citizens fleeing the Georgian bombings fled to Russia. Most hold Russian passports.

I don't see this as a reason why citizens of NATO countries should get hot and want to go to war, to defend Georgia, to defend Saakashvili's military adventurism. Because military adventurism it IS. It was Saakashvili's decision to respond to a region which overwhelmingly VOTED for independence, with military force. It was Saakashvili's decision which was anti-democratic.

I don't think Georgia should be part of NATO, esp. considering how trigger happy it is, and how confrontational it is with citizens in the same region. If we grant that Georgia is a democracy, however strained the notion becomes, we can equally grant that Ossetia is a democracy.

[DutchLiberal]

25. I agree it was an irresponsible decision to use military force in Ossettia. However:

"That's a pretty provocative step to take against a region that, by overwhelming numbers, VOTED for independence almost immediately they could get their shit together after the breakup of the Soviet Union."

They voted. But who granted them the right to make that vote? In the past years, several regions in Bolivia also voted in referendums to break away from the central government in La Paz. Does that mean they are now seperate nations? No, because the Bolvian constitution doesn't recognize a right to unilateral vote for independence. Same story in Ossettia and Abchasia.

"I don't see this as a reason why citizens of NATO countries should get hot and want to go to war, to defend Georgia, to defend Saakashvili's military adventurism. Because military adventurism it IS. It was Saakashvili's decision to respond to a region which overwhelmingly VOTED for independence, with military force. It was Saakashvili's decision which was anti-democratic."

I agree the decision was anti-democratic, but again: the fact the Ossettians voted means nothing in this case. According to Saakasjvili, they responded to gunfire from rebels, backed by Russians, from ossettia. Whether this is true or not: I agree we shouldn't get into a war with Russia, but we MUST do everything we can to defend Georgia. Sending a peace-keeping force comes to mind, or economic sanctions against Moscow.

Remember Russian troops are again setting way to the capital Tbilisi. I think the Russians are going for regime change. I strongly believe in defending the only democratic country in that region of the world. We've got to support the Georgian people.

"I don't think Georgia should be part of NATO"

I agree. They have to work out a peace-agreement with Ossettia and Abchasia first.

[iconicgnom]

29. "They voted. But who granted them the right to make that vote?" They granted it to themselves.

This was TWO YEARS after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, when new states were being constituted from the breakaway regions. Gien those circumstances such a popular vote taken by one region should be seen as having innate legitimacy, as constituting a base for negotiating relations with other regions in the area.

Now to the point: what gave Georgia's president the right to use military force on Ossettia, to bomb their cities? Hmmm?

Since when is "democracy" conducted with those tools?

[DutchLiberal]

31. I already said I condemn the use of military force in Ossettia. However:

As I have said, Ossettian rebels and Russians 'peace troops' were shooting at the Georgian army. And the news about the 'bombing' I've only heard from Russians sources. Remember it's the Russians who bombed Gori, outside of Ossettia, and the capital's airport.

EVEN if you don't believe that, EVEN if you think the Russians had every right to 'defend' Ossettia: you have to agree we can't let the Georgian people suffer the plundering, pillaging, bombing and setting on fire of their villages by the Russians, as they head for the capital to take over the only democratic country in the region.

It's amazing how supportive liberals on DEMOCRATIC Underground get of the Russian Imperial Army (of dictator-czar Putin) when their enemy is an ally of Bush...

[iconicgnom]

32. Nah, we're not "supportive" of the Russian Imperial Army. We just don't like one sided lies.

And you seem totally close minded to facts while pushing your war propoganda "we can't let the Georgian people suffer..."
Last week it was Iran. Who's next, after Iran and Georgia?
You sure don't seem very aware of Iraq, and of which country has been sending armies 2500 miles across oceans to plunder, pillage, bomb and set fire to villages. So gimme a break with your assumptions of US good intentions. Those assumptions are false, and everyone on the planet knows they're false.

[ArmeniansForObama]

21. Georgia has not right to South Ossetia

South Ossetia was established as an autonomous oblast during the Soviet times. It was never part of Georgia. Furthermore, they declared their independence just as Georgia declared its independence during the breakup of the Soviet Union. Out of all the different countries, Georgia should be sensitive to a nation's quest for independence and survival. That is the story of the Ossets. Also, they have their own language and culture that is distinct from Georgia. Georgia has been discriminating and worse against its minorities.

Oh, and by the way, McCain's top foreign policy adviser was a lobbyist for Georgia, so anything coming out of McCain's mouth is lies for the purpose of Georgia's political gain.

[izquierdista]

22. Welcome to DU!

And thanks for adding facts to the discussion, something that most people on DU don't take the trouble to do. :hi:

[DutchLiberal]

26. I hate McCain as much as the next DU'er, but I couldn't care less about that.

Russian troops are heading for Tbilisi to throw over the only democratic country in that region, so if McCain says things for the purpose of Georgia's political gain, I'm glad he does so. Remember that Barack Obama also showed strong support for Georgia in his speech on CNN.

"It was never part of Georgia."

Besides that it's not true, you keep ignoring the fact I'm concerned with and that's a Russian takeover of a sovereign country.

[ArmeniansForObama]

28. I can't let these assertions pass by

"Russian troops are heading for Tbilisi to throw over the only democratic country in that region"

Regarding your made-up comment in so many levels, I had to research the numbers and see for myself.

Below are the results, I'm not an 'Economist' fan, but it's the fastest result I found, if you have another source, let me know.

As you see below, Georgia is right up there in their Democratic index with Kenya and Iraq. Russia is ahead of Georgia by 2 points, and the other two countries in the region: Armenia and Azerbaijan are also in the same 'Hybrid regime' ballpark rating. Lebanon beats Georgia, so by that logic, the US should have defended them militarily against the Israel invasion of 2006.

Incidently, Sweden is rating #1

Source:
http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/DEMOCRACY_INDEX_2007_v3.pdf

Democratic index:

Ukraine: 52

Hybrid regimes:
Lebanon: 85
Kenya: 101
Russia: 102
Georgia: 104
Armenia: 110
Azerbaijan: 129
Iraq: 112

Authoritarian regime:
Pakistan 113

[DutchLiberal]

30. I don't give a shit about what 'The Economist' thinks.

Georgia has elected AND re-elected Mikhail Saakasjvili in elections monitored by European Union monitors, who called them fair and democratic.

Putin was never elected in the first place, let alone re-elected. European monitors deemed the elections undemocratic because of the harsh intimidation campaign of the Putin camp. Medvedev the same story. The last elections European Union monitors had to boycott the elections because they were prevented from doing their work. Opposition members were arrested.

If you want to defend Putin, because Saakashvili is an ally of Bush, you're out of your mind.

[northernlights]

24. S. Ossettia

is an independent region that is run by Ossettians and overseen by Ossettian, Georgian and Russian peacekeepers. If Georgia didn't want Ossettia's ally Russia bombing in Georgia, then Georgia shouldn't have attacked Ossettia first.

This is in no way a pre-emtive strike against a nonthreatening state, in the way that the Bush attack on Iraq was.

Georgia provoked by attacking in Ossettia first, which they had no business doing. That it was carefully timed to coincide with the opening of the Olympics is no coincidence. This was planned out, trained for and equipped -- by the US and Israel, and in advance.

Russia no doubt was preparing to defend, because they saw the runup.

Again, let Bush/McCain be warned. If they are stupid enough to attack Russia's allies directly or by proxy, there will be retaliation. It will be direct, ruthless, and serious. I don't love Putin, but I also don't blame him in the least.

The neocons thought they could grab control of the Caspian oil pipeline with a stupid, malicious schoolboy ploy. But they're playing in Russia's backyard, and Putin is no schoolboy.

[DutchLiberal]

27. I agree it was an irresponsible move by Georgia...

They should've worked out their conflict with Ossettia by diplomatic means. Still, that gives Russia no right to invade Georgia, attack its citizens, plunder their villages, set their houses on fire, and bomb civilian targets. Right now they are ethnically cleansing Abchasia from all ethnic Georgians! And there also live(d) Georgians is Ossettia, so I think Georgia has a say in that region as well.

"Georgia provoked by attacking in Ossettia first, which they had no business doing. That it was carefully timed to coincide with the opening of the Olympics is no coincidence. This was planned out, trained for and equipped -- by the US and Israel, and in advance."

Oh yeah, everything is one big conspiracy, right? Time to put on my tinfoil hat. If anything was planned for, it's the Russian invasion. Or have you missed the news that Russia bombed a Georgian village this year? And that it has shot down a Georgian aircraft over Georgian territory?

How anybody can defend Czar Putin in his operation to take over democratic countries, just because those countries are allies with Bush, is beyond me. Do you really think that, had Bill Clinton be president, he wouldn't have been an ally to Georgia? And if Obama becomes president, you think Georgia suddenly isn't a US ally anymore?

You and other defenders of Russian aggression are too obsessed with the 'neocon-connection' that you would sacrifice the Georgian people over it.

[CherylK]

15. K & R! Good one Cenk!

:thumbsup:

[ArmeniansForObama]

16. Why does the pipeline look like Frankenstain drew it?

Can anyone tell whether the pipeline could possible be built through a more suited route and logical country:

<>

Georgia shamelessly contributed to the isolation of a certain landlocked country, Real Politik at its finest.

[happygoluckytoyou]

17. I HOPE THOSE DAMN RUSKIES DONT BUILT A TORTURE CAMP IN CUBA...oh...nevermind

[democracy1st]

23. K & R