Joan Manuel Serrat

[Xipe Totec]

Si no sabes quien es, ¿Qué estas haciendo aquí?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QcxmqHNlgY

[Cleita]

1. I didn't know,

but enjoyed your clip.

[NV1962]

2. Dunno what your point is... Who are you referring to? Joan Manuel Serrat?

Ay, si un día para mi mal
viene a buscarme la parca.
Empujad al mar mi barca
con un levante otoñal
y dejad que el temporal
desguace sus alas blancas.

Y a mí enterradme sin duelo
entre la playa y el cielo...

En la ladera de un monte,
más alto que el horizonte.
Quiero tener buena vista.
Mi cuerpo será camino,
le daré verde a los pinos
y amarillo a la genista.

Cerca del mar. Porque yo
nací en el Mediterráneo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfh2QRvcmpw

(Editado para agregar este enlace a un clip mejor del mismo legendario Mediterráneo, pero cantado junto a Ana Belén)

[Xipe Totec]

4. El punto es este:

¿Cuál es el propósito de este grupo?

No veo yo aquí acertamiento alguno de nuestro único punto en común, como Hispanoamericanos, que es la cultura é idioma Castellano.

Fuera de eso, somos simplemente Portorriqueños, Mexicanos, Venezolanos, ó lo que sea. De ser así, no tenemos lazos en común.

Sin embargo, he visto varias veces aquí, un rechazo completo de la cultura Española, y tendencia al rechazo de esta parte de nuestra herencia en común.

Si creemos que la identidad Hispana existe, debemos comenzar por aceptar, recordar, y hacer honra a la cultura que nos une.

Esto quiere decir que debemos de aprender y reconocer las grandes luces de nuestra cultura.

Tanto del presente, como del pasado.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTUjFIWTWV8&NR

[msedano]

6. hijole, hombre, pues aqui va una obra perfectissima ejemplar de su cultura de aca...

Qué quieren conmigo los puristas,
all tongue-tied
& sitting proper
behind fat stoic dictionaries?
I've already eaten the thin white skeletons
of foreign words
choked on the bones of Inglés Only,
learned the art of speaking in codes
and code switching,
learned to spit palabras
out of boca abierta
like bullets
like fire
like fuego
like poems
have already licked alive
the crevices of open-legged borders
bleeding the histories and languages
of my name
Have already been witness to silence
to white-haired first grade teacher
bringing finger to lips and saying,
Shhhhhh! Speak English.
You're in America now,
speak English.
Mi bisabuela fue Yaqui
Mi abuela Mexicana
Mi madre mestiza
y yo?
Your worst linguistic nightmare
hecho realidad
Aquí se le hecha
de todo; East Los attitude,
chile chipotle, Chicana power fist.
Aquí el inglés se quita sus moños,
wears khaki guangos
and dances slow motion to oldies.
Aquí el inglés trips over itself
Y el español comes down
off its high Spanish horse,
cruises down Whittier Boulevard
in a cherry-red Impala lowrider,
watchala it rides the bus,
eats chile spiced mangos
and elotes smothered in mayonesa,
it learns to say pá instead of para,
'cá instead of acá
'llá instead of allá,
travel pá cá y pá llá
pá llá y pá cá
pá Caló. Órale!
Somos las chicas patas lenguas que se rajan
cruzando fronteras sin papeles,
illegal tongues jumping over barb-wire fences
and running como las cucarachas
when you hit the light switch!
Córrele cuquita! Córrele!
Aquí el lenguaje existe en el momento
que Conejo hits up Pablo for a ride
con, Come on vato. Give me un aventón
to la marqueta. Y Pablo lo manda a la fregada
with a wave of a hand y con Chale dude!
Qué me vez? cara de taxi-cab?
Aquí se usa lo que sirve,
el rascuache, el mestizaje,
las left-overs y lo yet to be born,
Aquí cada palabra está viva. Respira.
And all the Chicas Patas, las Wátchalas,
los éses y ésas of the world
stand up and shout:
Hey! And ain't I a word?
Caigo from hungry mouths
of thousands. Salgo como bala
en los barrios de Califas,
broto como lluvia en el desierto de Arizona,
canto mi Tex-Mex junta a Flaco Jiménez
And tell me, ain't I a word?
Los académicos me ignoran
los puristas dicen que contamino,
Webster y el Pequeño Larousse
no me conocen y Random House me escupe.
No manchen!
Aquí mi raza no se detiene
cada nueva palabra remembers, relives, speaks
the many conquests of our bleeding tongues.
Our language, como cuerpo de serpiente, moves
it shape-shifts
it sheds
en un instante muere
y aún vuelve a nacer.

Olga Garcia, Lengualistic Algo, Speaking in Tongues
reviewed at http://members.aol.com/msedano/skinpeel.htm

and published by the distinctively chicana chicano publishing house, Calaca Press de San Dedo...

http://www.calacapress.com/cppoesia.html

ate y sin otro motivo,
mvs

[Xipe Totec]

7. Por eso estamos como estamos

Me parece que en mundo
ya las cosas no andan bien
pues parece que a la gente
se les fue el seso a los pies.

Que esta ciega la justicia
esto tú lo puedes ver
en la ultima refriega
salió condenado un juez.

Por eso estamos como estamos,
por eso nunca progresamos,
si tal parece que gozamos
poner las cosas al revés.

Por eso estamos como estamos,
por eso nunca progresamos,
por tanto genio y tanto sabio
que juegan yoyo en el café.

Los parientes afligidos
de un hotel los tenis cuelgan,
un doctor piden a gritos
no hay ninguno están en huelga.

Ayer yo busqué un gendarme
pues robaron a mi tía
y él me contestó muy fresco
debuté en la policía.

Por eso estamos como estamos,
por eso nunca progresamos,
si tal parece que gozamos
poner las cosas al revés.

Por eso estamos como estamos,
por eso nunca progresamos,
por tanto genio y tanto sabio
que juegan yoyo en el café.

Esas figuras extrañas
de ajustados pantalones
no son chicas son las mañas
de los nuevos rebeldones.

Ayer pregunté a un niñito
qué deseaba ser de grande
y me contestó quedito:
"A sus hermanas ligarme".

Por eso estamos como estamos,
por eso nunca progresamos,
si tal parece que gozamos
poner las cosas al revés.

Por eso estamos como estamos,
por eso nunca progresamos,
por eso estamos como estamos,
si todo se hace con los pies.


Lyrics - Los Apson

[NV1962]

8. Uhhhh...

First off, sorry for not posting in Spanish, but I think the point you make is interesting enough for a larger audience.

I think there's much to be said in favor of cautioning against pegging too much on so-called "cultural" bonds when it's mostly a common language. But I also believe that it's a rather narrow take, when one applies such a strictly linguistic approach to the case of "the Spanish speaking world" (which, by the way, also extends to Equatorial Guinea and the conflicted territory formerly known as Spanish Sahara).

The painful colonial past has left a nasty aftertaste - I think we can easily agree to that.

I also believe it's just as much reasonable to assert that the ties among Spanish speaking countries (although I feel that Portugal and Brazil are just as much "partners" in that culturally close cluster) go way beyond "mere" language. Something that may surprise non-Spanish speakers is that Spanish, as is the case with French, has an "authoritative" body that oversees the common heritage, in a collegial manner (i.e., the broader Association of Spanish Academies comprises twenty-one national members who jointly "decide" in governing the corpus of Spanish language. One of the most interesting and more tangible results of this cross-fertilization effort is the Pan-Hispanic Dictionary or DPD (which can be consulted on-line) that spells out the differences in "regional" usage of this language.

Such a common and quite horizontally organized effort is a remarkable example of "open" intra-national collaboration; all the more interesting is that, regional lexical differences (i.e. expressions) aside, there is no difference whatsoever in spelling. Unlike, for example, English where US English and UK English have differences in spelling of exactly the same words (e.g. color/colour, -ise/-ize, etc.) aside from regional lexical differences (e.g. truck/lorry). For me, this is an indicator that it's not "just" a language bond, but a comparatively very strong one at that.

Then, there's a more broad interpretation of "culture". Authors in literature, but also in pop culture (especially in music, but also movies) tend to have a strong cross-over appeal. Let's put it this way: anyone asserting that "because" a given artist is, for example, an Argentinian or Cuban or Mexican citizen, he or she most likely can't have success on the other side of the ocean, is either an idiot, ignorant, or a deliberate troublemaker. Of course, the same possible cross-over appeal goes the other way as well; Shakira is just as big in Spain, as in her home country. And Alejandro Sanz is quite popular in the Americas, as well.

For another example, and if one takes a look at administrative, political and even judicial customs, one can easily spot coincidences that are, of course, just as easily explained by the colonial past. However, it's just as much indicative that those common elements still persist: for example, the traditional pleas in criminal judicial proceedings are either "guilty" or "innocent", and not the typical Anglo-Saxon "guilty" or "not guilty" (aside from "no contest") forms.

So, with these examples I'm only illustrating why I think that to assert that it's "just" (or even "mostly") a language issue is a grave misrepresentation of the reality.

Now, what I have done is to expand from a narrow US-centric approach (where the "cosmology" of Spanish speakers is reflected) to a far more broad view on "the Spanish speaking world".

Without getting into refined thoughts concerning the specifics of the so-called "Hispanic" versus "Latino" discussion (a different and potentially most contentious can of worms), you're absolutely right in that there are differences between, say, Florida (with its strong Cuban influences), California (where Mexicans are much more noticeable), New York (where it's not uncommon to run into people from Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic) or one of the Gulf states (where many people live and work from Central America, such as El Salvador). Now, Spaniards in the US are much more few and far in between - noting myself as such an exception.

Still, and as much as the Spanish language issue is becoming a readily exploited issue for narrow politically partisan purposes I think it's still worth to note that the numbers of native Spanish speakers in the US amount to a by all means respectable 40 million; for example, Spain has "only" 44 million inhabitants. The Spanish speakers in the US could, hypothetically, make up quite a populous virtual country - that's my minor point in this paragraph.

But my overarching point here is that it is both absurd and objectionable to assert that there is little beyond "language and culture" as common factors that bind countries where Spanish is (predominantly) spoken.

Now, is it reasonable to assert that there are painful pangs of the brutal colonial past? Is it reasonable to state that that past causes many people to reject references to Spain, such as for example with the term "Hispanic"? Evidently.

But let's not let a necessary exercise in healthy (!) historic revisionism get in the way of simple truisms. As much as the use of Spanish as an "official" language is an artifact, illustrated by efforts to place so-called "co-official" languages on equal official footing in many Spanish speaking countries (something that also happened in Spain, where Galician, Basque and Catalan have become co-official), it is just as silly to blindly reject anything related to Spanish, as is the corollary opposite, namely embracing outdated and untenable notions of the "Madre Patria" as a contemporary desideratum.

I think there's lots of room to engage in critical review, but it's in my opinion ridiculous, ineffectual and counterproductive to insinuate that there's a somehow significant "debate" going on about "Spanishness" (or "Portugueseness" for that matter, since I mentioned Brazil and Portugal). Whomever denies the strong, common, and multi-tiered connections between and among all Spanish and Portuguese speaking countries, is just as far off-base as the occasional idiot advocating for some "Pan-Hispanic" revival (usually couched in political yearnings to the "good old" days of mass murderers like Franco and Pinochet).

There is, in other words, nothing to debate about whether manifold common ties exist; they do.

Whether it is "easy" to find common ground in contemporary socio-political issues is another topic altogether. In that regard, I'd like to point out that there's just as much effort among xenophobic elements (i.e., not necessarily people who are "anti-Spanish" per se, but "anti-foreigner") to rake up artificial controversy as there are tensions among Spanish speaking communities within the US due to factors that far from always attributable to the bloody and dark past of Spain in the Americas. As one outstanding example I could point to the anti-Castrista crowd in Florida, that starkly contrasts with (for example) many in the expatriate Mexican community in the US; differences and tensions there have much, much more to do with contemporary US-specific politics, than with the more distant remnants of Spanish-based (from Spain) History.

Frankly, I abhor platitudes that appeal to some bland "brotherhood" of Spanish speakers in this world about as much as I detest beauty pageants announcing their personal ideal of world peace. Having said that, I have no reason whatsoever to embrace the exact opposite, namely a view of strongly compartmentalized and inherently somehow incompatible Spanish speaking countries.

Oh by the way - all this reminds that I'll have to finish this thing sometime soon - it's the first of several "panel pieces" I'm writing on what I refer to as "Frankenspanish", or: the pursuit of either an artificially homogenized "culture" or the flat out denial of significant common elements altogether.

Anyway... I look forward to seeing this discussion develop.

[Xipe Totec]

9. Thank you for a very thoughtful reply

Your observations are lengthy and detailed, so I don't think I can address them all in a single reply. I will have to think about your words and, better yet, sleep on them to allow my muses to inspire a reply worthy of your post.

Allow me to make a few observations of my own, if for no other reason than to acknowledge and thank you for your reply.



I selected that particular video deliberately. Juan Manuel Serrat is Catalan. He is singing in Castillian. And he is singing not a Spanish song, but a song by a Mexican composer, Jose Alfredo Jimenez.

It is, in my mind, an outstretched hand across three cultures. It is an homage and an acknowledgment from a Spaniard who is adored in Mexico, that Mexico is an equal partner and contributor to Hispanic culture.

If we are to consider Hispanicism as a valid unifying theme, we must begin by educating ourselves to what it means to be Hispanic.

To me it means two things:

1).- Learning about, and respecting contributions from every corner of the Spanish speaking world: Ruben Dario of Nicaragua, Amado Nervo of Mexico, Jose Marti of Cuba, Rafael Hernández of Puerto Rico, Pedro Palacios Almafuerte of Argentina, Gabriel Garcia Marquez of Colombia, or Miguel Hernández of Spain. The list is endless, but you get the point.

2).- Help our non-Spanish speaking brethren in the Hispanic community learn about our common shared heritage. Translate the works of these great lights to English, if necessary, but spread the word that we too have contributed to world culture, and we too have a unique and special point of view.

Those of us who speak more than one language have a special responsibility to make the works of the Spanish speaking masters accessible to those in our community who cannot.

The one thing that I do not believe is a unifying force in the Hispanic community, is a hatred and disdain for the language and the culture of Spain. There can be no Hispanic community, so long as we segregate those of us who are of European ancestry, from those of us who are of Native American ancestry.

If the litmus test of Hispanicism is based on Native American ancestry, then there is no room for me in this community.

Mind you, I am Mexican by birth and my ancestors for at least the past eight generations were born and raised there. but the predominance of my blood lines ultimately come from the old world. Culturally, I am an Hidalgo.

[NV1962]

10. Well...

Thanks for your kind words. I must apologize for that long winded and hardly focused set of observations; it doesn't much good in "staging" a discussion, I'm afraid.

But what I'm trying to get at is that, in my subjective view, there's definitely a lot more affinity than "purely" language suggests. Else, I find it hard to explain why I "connect" so well with fellow Spanish speakers, be they Chilean, Ecuadorian, Nicaraguan, Cuban or Mexican. There's something running more deeply than covered by language that I can relate to; a similar temperament, or a sensitivity to common themes - like children, family, and (why not) honor, or something much less tangible, like a fairly common sense of humor...

Getting back to language itself: I think that, speaking in very broad and general terms, there's a much greater predisposition among Spanish speakers to acknowledge, honor and sustain cultures and languages that have existed for much longer than Spanish has been around in their country. I said "much greater" because I mean to compare here, for example, with the specific case of the US where the systematic study and exposure of Native American languages are relegated to a very tiny circuit of academic centers; I think that's a quite remarkable fact, given how the notion of "heritage" is such a much-used theme here, in the US.

For example: I live in Northwest Nevada, where the Paiute Nation has strong and deep historic connections to this region, yet it is virtually absent from daily observation. In fact, when I tried to get more information on their language, I wound up with practically nothing - beyond some contemplative and superficially descriptive literature, and aside of course from the alternative possibility of contacting native speakers directly. When I compare that with the degree of interest in Native American languages in, say, Mexico or Guatemala or Nicaragua, I can even see a form of national pride underpinning efforts to respectfully and seriously keep that common legacy alive for future generations. I find it quite tragic that precisely in the US, a country with such a strong sense of national pride (never mind that it's always hard to pinpoint what that "pride" actually entails) there's hardly any interest in keeping its historic roots alive, to not see it as a "threat" in any way but as a co-official and broadly assumed fraternal expression of common cultural bonds.

It is all the more striking, given the judicially (certainly in relative terms) exquisite treatment given to the idea of "sovereignty" with regard to Indian Country, here in the US. It strikes me somewhat as a dissonance, that such a "legalese" contemplation exists in practical absence of something beyond superficial classroom History lessons and an occasional postage stamp or coin; I'm not sure how many non-Native American children learn at least some rudimentary notions of the language spoken by the "local" Nation, but I surely don't risk too much by assuming they're really a minute minority.

Of course, I'm not trying to paint rosy pictures about the situation in the Spanish (or Portuguese) speaking countries in the Americas here - they're generic, comparative remarks painted with a thick brush. But that hint of difference in my mind certainly suggests a difference in affinity, in sensitivity to cultural kinship among "dissimilar" cultures, co-existing side by side and oftentimes simultaneously.

Now, I'm not sure if there's much of a solid reason to look for "litmus tests" to identify "well-grounded cultural identity". Perhaps only if one adopts the criterium of a homogenized culture as "proof" of a "solid" culture, but I am strongly inclined to attribute that to at least cultural imperialist tendencies. There's much to be said for cultures that can assume and express identity in a multifaceted manner, without a hint of insecurity. For example, the term "mestizaje" in Spanish -- for "cultural mixing" -- doesn't have a negative ring to me; I suspect that many of those who feel negative connotations (i.e., ideas like "degeneration") are at the same time proponents of a "dominant" or even "uniform" cultural expression, such as in language.

What I mean is that I see no reason to have "security" issues, with coexisting, co-official languages. So, the notion of "litmus test" rings quite foreign to me.

Now, if you ask me what "Hispanicism" (or "Latinism") exactly means, I can't give you an exact answer. But I can assure you that, just as there are distinct Native American influences in Spanish (there are quite a few words derived from Native American "originals"), other influences have also left their mark on the language, albeit in a more distant past - such as of course Latin, but also and specifically Arabic. And, to be sure, there's even a streak of Jewish heritage - no matter the disastrous ignominy and multiple injury committed in that ominous year 1492, it's hard not to recognize Sefardim influences.

Speaking of which: that day of October 12 is quite a bit uncomfortable in many places in Spain - for many reasons, among which a more balanced and honest take on the barbaric acts committed by "my" ancestors plays an important role. Of course, the Franco era and its absurd post-mortem quest for "empire" illustrated by the ritual pomp and circumstance that institutionally hammered that day into our minds, with the predictable disaffected reaction coming with the introduction (at long last!) of a stable democracy. And that "bit uncomfortable" comes, as I said before, alongside the restoration of persecuted cultures and languages in that country.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not engaging in comparative exercises of pitifulness here, but instead attempt to explain how the coexistence of multiple cultures and languages side-by-side can be both natural and necessary even, not to mention the beneficial effects of a non-monocultural societal make-up.

All in all, I don't look for a linguistic framework to discern a common culture. As much as I'd like to find something more tangible, in the end, I have little in the way of specific identifiers of what may pass for "Hispanic" or "Latino".

What I do know, and more than that: feel in my veins is that we're siblings. By comparison, Western Europe and the United States are cousins.

Another thing entirely is the issue of nationalism - and that definitely applies its own oftentimes twisted logic, with one litmus test or another. I suppose I'm not surprising you when I say that I'm anything but enamored with the Aztlan movement, just as I'm repulsed (perhaps even more) by the typically far-right tendency to think in terms of "old empire", of which the historic Pinochet-Franco duo is but one sorry example.

It's not doing any justice to the far more nuanced reality in Brazil, but it reminds me a bit of the status-and-complexion (!) complex; as if culture and genetics are bonded. Cuba, for example, is a fascinating example where that in my opinion quite artificial link has been broken down to something much more simple: Cubanness.

And that may be a more useful metaphor for the type of cultural security that I envisage: I enjoy Jorge Guillén as much as I like to read Jorge Luís Borges, or Gabriel García Márquez. In the end, we're united by the universal medium that is the Spanish language. Not because it's inherently any bit more universal than, say, Traditional Chinese or English, but because "we" Spanish speakers feel comfortable and naturally different citizens of the same world, living side-by-side and part of the same family, but keeping our respective roots alive.

That's perhaps a better way to explain why I don't need a litmus test to know who my family is, and why I feel practically at home, here, in this barrio; and even leaving the strong political differences with the anti-Castristas there aside, I'd very likely feel just as at home in Southern Florida, as well. I really dig a güagüancó, ranchera, merengue, tango, and bulería - as much as I like to listen to a well-executed mambo (like, by Hilton Ruíz). I'm not too sure that my enjoyment of zarzuelas is as broadly shared, though. :D

Ultimately, my point is this: like family, we're not identical. But we're damn close, and there's much more than a "common tradition" going on. And like family, perhaps it's not too wise to dig into analytical trenches where there's none. ¡A disfrutar que la vida es corta!

(Y perdón por liarla otra vez... Espero que esto por lo menos resulte más clarificador que lo anterior.)

[Lost-in-FL]

11. For starters, we can get the names right....

Puertorriqueños, not Portorriqueños.:-)

[Xipe Totec]

12. Both are used, both are correct

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dict_en_es/spanish/portorrique%C3%B1o

:hi:

[Lost-in-FL]

13. In 1932...

the US Congress was forced to change the islands name from the mistaken "Porto Rico" to "Puerto Rico" on all Congregational statutes and judicial opinions on the island (34 years after American troops landed in Puerto Rico). :hi:

Maybe that is the reason there are still judicial papers with the words "Porto Rico", "portorricans", etc.

[Xipe Totec]

14. Portorricans is incorrect,

but Portoriqueños is not. Different languages, different usages and mutation rules.

A person from Costa Rica can be either Costarricense or Costarriqueño, but never Costaricaño.

And, finally, a person suffering from gripe is agripado...


not agripedo. :rofl:

[NV1962]

15. They're both absolutely correct.

Even the DRAE says so, and that's a rather picky source.

[EFerrari]

3. Learning. Aprendiendo.

And, that's not a bad place to be, my friend. :)

[Xipe Totec]

5. "A mis Amigos" Alberto Cortez

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy3N8AKhY5Y

;)