All this talk about Rape and Sex. Let's reframe.

[Avalux]

It might be helpful to replace the word "sex" with "sexual" when discussing the relationship between the two. It also might be helpful to attach the word "violent" to rape when the word is used to describe forcing a person into sexual activity, particularly sexual penetration, against his or her will through use of physical force and/or threat of injury.

The act of VIOLENT rape is not committed for SEXUAL gratification. The exact reasons are still being explored, but it's usually thought that the perpetrator comes from a subculture of violence and may rape to demostrate their toughness and masculinity in a violent and antisocial manner. The lack of accountability by the perpetrator is evident in questioning convicted rapists about their crimes - most will caution women to not dress a certain way or not act a certain way; as if the women they raped deserved it.

There are other "acts" that are called rape, such as consensual or play. These shouldn't be confused with violent rape, which is committed WITHOUT CONSENT.

[rucky]

1. that's like saying "violent murder"

rape is sex without consent. how tough is this?

[Atman]

2. All this talk about Rape and Sex. Let's NOT.

Haven't we simply beaten this subject to death? It is clearly one of those subjects that will never reach any kind of conclusion or consensus opinion, it's just to the point of being flame-bait. It is wasting time and distracting people. I appreciate your attempt to finds some sort of definition from which to start discussion, but aren't we better off trying to END discussion about this instead of opening up a whole new line of debate?

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Avalux]

6. Wasn't my intention to start a flame-war;

was trying to define it for myself and thinking aloud. I've been reading some of the other threads and it made me think about the actual act of sex and whether or not rape was sexual in nature.....

Sorry to offend. :hug:

[Atman]

9. No, I'm not offended.

I was serious when I said I appreciated your trying to come up with a definition from which we could begin discussion. But I just don't see this ever ending. We've spent more time on these rape threads the last few days than most anything else. It saps energy, it causes ill will, and in the end, when people wind up getting pissed off, half leave and the other just start a new poll about it. In fact...I just started one, too!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=976933&mesg_id=976933

[Avalux]

11. lol. I'll go vote in it.

From a woman's perspective though - continuing discussion is a good thing even if we can't all be on the same page; one person may see it differently as a result. I purposefully avoided the threads over the past few days but felt compelled to throw in my two cents. Couldn't help myself. ;-)

[noamnety]

8. No, we are not better off trying to END discussion about this

we are not better off ending the discussion about election fraud
we are not better off ending the discussion about the war in Iraq
we are not better off ending the discussion about racism in this country
we are not better off ending the discussion about women's rights in this country

[etherealtruth]

13. I agree wholeheartedly

These are real problems in need of real solutions ... discussion is good, action is better ... neither of which will happen if we "let it go"

[noamnety]

16. now I wish I hadn't posted that

"in this country" <-- one of the more ignorant things I've posted in a while. Scratch that part.

*cursing the time limits for editing posts here*

[etherealtruth]

18. You're minor faux pas didn't detract from the spirit of your message

... and sometimes we need to clean our "own backyards" before moving to others.
Think about how much credibility the US has r/t human rights violations right now (the mess in our own backyard)

[bloom]

3. Some non-consensual rape is violent and some isn't

Some people rape drugged women or men and are not necessarily "Violent" in the sense of punching, choking and other things. The victims are Violated. yes. It's still rape. It's still not about sex. It's still not consensual.

[TechBear_Seattle]

4. Rape is a matter of consent, not violence

While violence can be an aggrevating factor in sentencing, rape is defined by consent. Consentual "rape", such as roleplaying a rape scene in a controlled setting, does not meet the legal definition of rape no matter how violent it might be. Non-consentual sex is rape, regardless of how violent or non-violent it might be. That is why sex with a minor is classified by statute as rape, as the minor is presumed to be unable to give consent.

[benburch]

5. Some rapes are not paricularly violent, though.

For example, when the victim is too drunk/stoned to consent or resist.

And some rapists are of diminished capacity and though they force themselves on an unwilling victim, sexual gratification was their motive.

But yes, the majority of all rapes are sexualized violence.

In the case of a male rapist, the penis often becomes a surrogate for a weapon, and the vagina becomes a surrogate for its wound.

That is pretty much clear.

Many rapists go on to needing a real weapon and a real wound.

But the sexuality, though it is often part of the mental kick of the rapist is not usually the primary reason for the assault.

[Avalux]

7. Thanks for your post. I equated violence with violation -

insertion of the penis into the vagina (I guess it would be appropriate to include anus too) without consent, even if a person is unconscious, is incredibly violent in my eyes. I like your analogy. :hi:

[benburch]

10. Well, psychologically violent.

Not necessarily physically violent. And it often causes none of the physical signs of rape that juries look for. (Except for anal, of course, where an un-cooperating, un-lubed, and un-excited victim would absolutely bleed.) This is why date rape drug cases are so damned hard to prove to a jury.

[Avalux]

14. That's where the tragedy lies.

There are no outwards signs of the psychological damage done to the victim; if the act doesn't include bruising, tearing and bleeding then it's very difficult to prove and often discounted.

[benburch]

15. And a lot of guys just don't see what the problem is.

They think if the woman got that drunk with you, that equals consent. Ewwww.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. Great thread. It's one thing to define a word and another to

interpret an act. The funny thing is, in this particular instance, I fail to see how the debate is now centered around this concept.

Rape does involve aspects of sex...mainly genitalia...but that's where the comparison begins and ends.

I think it is more useful to DISTINGUISH rather than simply define even though distinguishing relies heavily on defining.

There is value in taking a word and having it fit the world you are observing, rather than taking the world you are observing and squeezing it into the narrow definition of a word. Beyond that, in reading the threads, the nature of this debate seems to have taken a rather circular form.

[leftstreet]

17. ...and let's move it to the Lounge.

DU looks odd lately.