All right, I've had it (Environmentalists cheering at high gas prices)

[bluestateguy]

Buckle up. This post may be a tough ride for you. My posts are not going to be tailored to the hypersensitive.

I've seen a number of replies to posts about high gas prices from people, allegedly claiming to be environmentalists, applauding the high gas prices. They seem convinced that the higher you drive up gas prices then the less people will drive, the more they will conserve, the more they will carpool and the more they will use public transportation. And surely we will develop alternative sources of energy too. To hell with the impact of high gas prices on working class people (a lot of environmentalists have always had kind of a sneering contempt for working class people anyway). There is a reason why most working class Americans do not rate the environment as a high priority when they vote: they have to make a living and pay the bills here and now. The elitist attitude I often encounter at DU (though not from everybody) seems to suggest that surely everybody who drives a car must be a wasteful pig, a freeper or a selfish Soccer Mommy who drives a gas guzzling Hummer.

Transitioning to alternative forms of energy is a great idea that I support, but it will not happen overnight. It will have to be incremental and gradual. In addition, don't look for any policy changes before January, 2009. I'm also all for public transportation, conservation, cleaner technology and carpooling. I do these things as much as possible. These things are all good incremental long-term goals, but they don't pay the bills today. I have a job where I am regularly reassigned to different locations around town at different times every few months. Public transit is not always available and sometimes the buses aren't even running at the early hour of the morning that I have to leave the house. So I drive my compact car to work. If some people don't like that, too damn bad.

But then I read posts from some of these same people cheering on the high gas prices (no, most environmentalists are not radical or extremist in their views, OK) that have such an unrealistic worldview: too hard to get to work by public transit from where you live? Move to a house that is closer to your job (gee, why didn't I think of that practical idea?). Your work schedule isn't compatible with public transportation? Well change your hours, or get another job (uh, OK).

The fact is that the people who are hurt by rising gas prices are ordinary Americans in the working and middle classes. High prices are eventually passed on in the form of higher prices for other consumer goods, which now cost more to deliver and transport. Then it suddenly becomes harder for a lower income family to buy groceries. You can raise the price of gas as high as you want, and it will have little impact on people's driving habits. Oh sure, maybe people will cancel their road trip vacations, but otherwise, you'll see little change. We were told that $3 gasoline would change people's habits, and it hasn't. But one thing I can promise you is that the wealthy will continue to drive without concern as to the price of gas. Raise it up as high as you like, and the wealthy will just pay it and continue to drive, while everyone else is further squeezed. To cheer on high gas prices is therefore a classist, elitist argument, even if you don't mean it to be.

[billbuckhead]

1. Really poor people walk or ride a bike

[Ariana Celeste]

26. Exactly.

:thumbsup:

[QC]

37. Not everyone lives in Buckhead.

This might be hard to believe, but there are many places in America where there is no public transportation and things are too far apart to permit walking or biking.

In such places, which comprise the vast majority of the American landmass, poor people do indeed have cars. They use them for such things as getting to work and going grocery shopping. High gas prices make it difficult for them to do these things. Raise the prices high enough and they won't be able to do them at all.

[raccoon]

116. Not to mention the dangers of riding a bike in city traffic. nt

[katty]

165. in LaLaland?! no way-unless yr reasonably close to your job and

have no kids to take to school, errands...It always amazes me when people either visit or move to LA how much they bitch about how everything is 'spread out' - miles apart-that's right and if you didn't get that on your first visit you must have been in a semi-coma.
Growing up here, if places (other than my local hood)take 15 minutes or less to get to (on a good traffic day)i'm in happy shock-that's why I enjoy visiting smaller, compact cities where you can actually 'see' a downtown and be there in 10 minutes, it's great!

[CAcyclist]

136. And there are also lots of places

with good public transportation that people are too snobby to use. What's classist and elitist is to refuse to take a perfectly good bus when you can.

If the public refuses to use the buses that are there because it is somehow demeaning to them to do so, then the bus system suffers because their is no influential public demand to ensure it stay well-funded and serves the public's needs. The poor who depend on the bus system have no resources to fight back when one route after another is removed because the road lobby is demanding the transportation funds go to building more and wider roads instead of funding buses and trains.

[PetraPooh]

149. OR, they will do them with more thought and planning.

For many reasons I have been living very hand to mouth, but never in poverty since 1994. So gas at any price was/is a big issue for me. I always make sure that once I start that car to go somewhere, I have plans to go everywhere I need to go for the next few days. I am amazed and often disgusted at my friends and neighbors who just pop out to the store or the hardware or the post office; sometimes leaving to go in the exact same direction three and four times a day or evening. If high gas prices make people slow down and think, slow down and reduce trips to a minimum; I think it will be a good thing.

In places where public transportation is accessible, I'm sure that gives some an option; but to say high gas prices hurt folks that have to drive, I don't think so. Almost everyone could be more careful than they are now and save lots of gas and hence money.

Now I'm no fan of high gas prices, but I don't think it is the crisis that everyone seems to act like it is. I may be wrong but seems like folks in Europe and some other countries have been paying really high prices for a very long time. If it means that we don't take a fun trip, or we have to do without the cheesecake or a few lattes that seem to be in almost every middle income person's hand these days; well so what. We as a nation USE the most gas, seems like we as a nation should accept a certain level of discomfort.

Finally I am not a greeny or an environmentalist, but the fact that gas is rising so high, I think will be good politically; well for us, not for the repubs. Since the gas prices are escalating primarily because Bush is pressuring Iran, maybe the fundies and rednecks that support him still will finally jump ship IF we can finally get through their heads that everytime the gas/oil prices go up. . . Bush and his cronies make millions at the expense of his own constituents. . . .well I can only hope that they figure this out and pressure their little lord king to back off and quit putting so much pressure on our oil supplying nations that have the right to nuclear power/electricity.

[sandnsea]

55. So is that the choice

Poverty or millionaire wealth. This is another one of those issues where the left goes so far left that the meet the free market radical right. Using the market to change behavior is an extreme libertarian idea, not a progressive one.

[bluestateguy]

58. It's kind of like the boneheads on the Left who advocate the draft

They are naive enough to think that the draft would be fair and equitable and that there would be "no exceptions". Yeah, uh huh. Then, the logic goes, there will be a public clamor to end the war when all of the rich people suddenly have to give up their children for the war. Never mind the fact that thousands, maybe millions, more poor people will have to sacrifice their kids for the war and a politically motivated draft proposal, but hey, they're just collateral damage.

[lectrobyte]

69. Where've you heard that logic? Basically, the draft would get

the average person more interested in what's going on when it's their children being drafted, and more likely to demand an end to a pointless war... The rich & well-connected will always have loopholes, I think everyone, right or left, would acknowledge that.

[bluestateguy]

73. OK

the average person more interested in what's going on when it's their children being drafted, and more likely to demand an end to a pointless war...

I'm sure many people would do just that. And many, many more would dutifully march of to war because the government said they have to go. You assume that everybody in this country is willing to challenge authority and that everyone is politically conscious. Far more people are conditioned to respect authority: to do something because authority figures said they have to do it, regardless of personal feelings. We also still live in a country where over 40% of eligible voters do not vote. These are people who would just march off to war, knowing little about Middle Eastern politics or the finer details of the Downing Street Memo, but they would go simply because they have been raised to believe that when the government orders you off to war, you go.

And you would also be giving these neo-cons thousands more warm bodies for God knows how many new wars.

[lectrobyte]

83. I'm only going by what I lived through in the 1960's and 1970's

wrt Vietnam. A lot of people dutifully went, and a lot of people protested, and a lot more people were just generally involved. I feel like things would be different if there were a draft, but I can see where you are coming from.

[Gemini Cat]

90. Agree 100%

Plus with the high gas prices, we will have to work even harder and longer then we already do just to get to our low paying jobs. We will have even less time to pay attention to what's really going on. So yes, the draft will as it always does exclude the rich and take the working class.

Does anyone honestly think Jenna Bush etal would be drafted?

[warrens]

140. Well, I remember the draft in the 60s being fair and equitable

If you were too poor to go to college, the government sent you to Vietnam. If you were rich but too stupid to stay in college, they sent you to NG training for a couple of weeks a year. What could be more fair and equitable than that?

[FlaGranny]

130. There are really poor people

who can't walk and can't afford a bike.

[CAcyclist]

138. Then they can't afford a car either.

Give me a break. Cars keep people poor more often than help them.

[FlaGranny]

141. Sorry, I mispoke, I meant to say

there really are poor people who can't walk or ride a bike (and have no public transportation). But I guess they don't need cars. No need to go anywhere, after all.

[AbbyR]

162. Not necessarily

The only job I could find was 50 miles from home. I drive a 14 year old Toyota held together with dental floss and chewing gum. May she live forever. My husband is disabled or I would sleep on the sofa at work and not go home, but I have to check on him and be there to be sure he is fed.

We have next to nothing, and I HAVE to drive if we're going to eat.

[bemildred]

2. Hey, it's that magic hand of the market. nt

[Selatius]

3. Well, America voted for excess when it voted for Reagan

Just look at what Jimmy Carter had planned for America:

--Reduce the annual growth rate in our energy demand to less than two percent.

--Reduce gasoline consumption by ten percent below its current level.

--Cut in half the portion of United States oil which is imported, from a potential level of 16 million barrels to six million barrels a day.

--Establish a strategic petroleum reserve of one billion barrels, more than six months' supply.

--Increase our coal production by about two thirds to more than 1 billion tons a year.

--Insulate 90 percent of American homes and all new buildings.

--Use solar energy in more than two and one-half million houses.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=957898&mesg_id=958010

What happened instead? America voted for Reagan. Most if not all of Carter's renewable energy programs were shelved or junked. Solar power got its research funding cut. We could have started diversifying our energy sources with Carter. We are now 30 years behind schedule.

[klook]

56. Yep, Carter had it goin' on

when it came to energy. And then when Reagan came in, his Secretary of Energy said his first priority was to get rid of his department. :puke:

[Left Is Write]

98. Those of us who voted against Reagan tried.

[muntrv]

4. You know GM sells flex fuel vehicles.

We need to demand gas stations to offer ethanol. Meijers in Michigan is offering it at its gas stations.

[tandot]

16. As so many others, I don't have enough money to buy a new car

and there are about 2 ethanol service stations in all of California.

I drive my 1998 Toyota Corolla with 37 mpg to work.

[WildEyedLiberal]

5. Agreed. Especially for people who live in small towns/rural areas

Where there IS no public transportation. I grew up in a small town and my parents both drive out of town to a larger nearby city for work. Now they're paying hundreds of dollars a month for gas. Why should they be told to sell the house they've owned for 30 years and relocate to an area they would never want to live in? They enjoy living in the country where they can have pasture ground for horses and cows.

People who espouse those kinds of views are typically urban people who have never had to worry about a lack of public transportation or the viability of walking or biking. People in small towns do not have that luxury. I don't think the destruction of small town America is something any liberal should be advocating, although this attitude does tie into the contempt many urban dwellers have for folks who do not live in large population centers.

[bluestateguy]

7. Well

I have met people like that before. People who have this American Ideal of everybody living in a dirty one bedroom apartment in a major city, taking public transportation everywhere they go.

[marbuc]

8. Make mine a dirty two bedroom

eom

[megatherium]

29. I have a friend who lives in Manhattan, in a one-bedroom apartment.

A nice little apartment, in the upper west side. He doesn't own a car. I suppose it would be nice if everyone could live in the city and enjoy the convenience and culture my friend enjoys there. By the way, his apartment cost $900,000.

[huskerlaw]

161. Excellent point.

Those of us who live in large cities with actual public transportation (yes, Los Angeles has public transportation) pay out the ass in rent.

I ride the subway 4 days a week and carpool the 15 miles to/from work on the other day. I also pay over $1200/month for my one-bedroom apartment.

Telling someone to move somewhere that has public transportation is not a good solution. At all.

[kestrel91316]

79. Well, if your apartment's DIRTY it's your own da--ed fault.

You don't get to blame your own lack of personal standards on the price of gas. Sheesh.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

151. I lived in a small town for seven years (pop. 15,000)

There was no public transportation, but you could walk the entire length of the inhabited area, including the strip malls, in 30 minutes.

Nobody did.

I lived three blocks from the college campus where I taught, and some students who lived on the same block I did DROVE to campus. Some of the dorm residents even drove across the campus, which was four by five blocks in area.

The townspeople were such car potatoes that when I walked downtown (six blocks), people would stop and ask if I wanted a ride.

I was once downtown in that small town, and a woman pulled up to the curb and asked me where a certain craft store was. I told her that it was two blocks ahead.

"Oh," she said, "then I'll have to drive."

I hope that kind of idiocy is wiped out by high gas prices.

[JVS]

6. Oh boy

:popcorn:

[titoresque]

9. great post!

I completely agree!

I can't drive my kids to school on a bike. I can't afford to live closer to the school. The school does not provide transportation for my kids (we are non-boundary) I will not pull my kids out this late in the year. I cannot afford to trade in my vehicle for another. I can't/won't homeschool. But there are other areas of my life where I can and do conserve......even driving. But the superior syndrome around here is a bit much sometimes. We all have different circumstances. Sometimes all you can do is to dance,juggle and just try to stay afloat.

[kestrel91316]

80. Here in the city we have amazing things like

schools within walking distance of most homes. Never have figured out why local parents STILL are obsessed with driving the kiddies to school. No wonder kids are so fat.

We always WALKED. It was NORMAL to do so.

[TheFarseer]

104. because the news media makes parents think

their brats will be abducted by a deranged child molester if they walk to school.

[kestrel91316]

123. Yep. Keep the masses afraid. They will buy more and bigger cars.

[mikeytherat]

145. In my neighborhood we have an elementary school.

Most kids could easily walk or bike to school in 20 minutes or less. We do, however, have buses for the kiddies and what do the parents do?

They DRIVE their kids to the bus stop.

Yes, you read that correctly. In fact, the family next door to us drives the kids 50 YARDS to the bus stop, and lets them wait in the minivan until the bus arrives. Then Suzy Soccermom puts her minivan in reverse and BACKS DOWN THE HILL to her house. Its almost surreal.

mikey_the_rat

[kestrel91316]

159. If I were God I would reserve a special place in hell just for

twits like you have described, lol!

[titoresque]

126. I dont live in the city

and I would love for my kids to be able to walk to school, however that would mean I would need to make about $100,000 more a year in order to afford the lifestyle it would require me to be able to live in a house in the neighborhood where my kids attend school. I suppose I could work three jobs to try to accomplish this material goal, of course my children would most likely never see me.......but hey, Id save on gas.
Also, not all kids who are driven by mommy and daddy are FAT. My kids swim on a sanctioned league in the winter and swim for the city in the summer. They also jump on the trampoline,ride their bikes, chase their kites and generally run about the neighborhood with their friends........because that's what I did and I survived. I don't live in fear that they will at any moment be snatched up by stanger danger. Furthermore, my kids are not fat.....and I drive them to school.
Your response to me and a couple below yours are just the type of ridiculous judgements the OP described.

[Extend a Hand]

10. rationing by price

really will screw the poor. The poor are the least likely to have the resources to conserve without pain. We were cleaning out my husbands grandmothers house recently and found some old WWII gas rationing coupons. I just can't see a Bush government requiring all citizens to limit consumption and pricing gas fairly while we build up our public transportation infrastructure.

Oil is a finite resource. The united states is extravagantly consuming oil at the expense of developing countries now.

Our little individual attempts at conservation seem so insignificant given the magnitude of the problems we're going to be facing as oil gets more and more expensive.


"Considering the many productive uses of petroleum, burning it for fuel is like burning a Picasso for heat."
-- Big Oil Executive

[JVS]

12. yup

[kestrel91316]

82. REALLY unhappy poor people are more likely to vote, IMHO, and

they sure as hell are NOT going to vote for the Party of Corporate Wealth and Pillaging.

Keep up that price pressure.

[titoresque]

127. good grief

you think? Really unhappy poor people arent really focussed on voting. They already feel disenfranchised. They are too busy trying to keep their house, food on the table, shoes for johnny, perhaps a birthday cake for little Susie. Are you poor?
Poor people worry about little things like how do I put off the phone bill this week so that I can buy milk and cereal and have enough GAS money to get to work. Then the paycheck comes and you tally all the bills you put off and the payday loans you've had to take out and you start the juggle for milk and cereal and GAS money all over again.
Voting?! Yeah........thats a priority. NOT!

[JVS]

129. Really unhappy poor people often notice who is standing on the sidelines..

as their life goes to hell. As a result they often don't see either party as worth a shit

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. Best DU Cliche

"My posts are not going to be tailored to the hypersensitive."

Harumph. As opposed to all those people who admit that their posts will be tailored to the hypersensitive. I always wonder whether people will give up on these self-congratulatory-masquerading-as-hard-nosed disclaimers, but my speculation is never paid back for me. I'll have to start keeping a list on my journal of everyone who is about to shock the community with their no-compromise, devil-may-care straight talk. The variations on this theme must be astounding...in number.

[bemildred]

14. Diagnostic of flame bait. nt

[titoresque]

15. I suspect you are the personality the OP

was describing with the post and with the "cliche"
Seems he pegged it right on.

[alcibiades_mystery]

28. That's the funny part

I'm not offended at all. I'm rather indifferent to the position, quite frankly, which is why I didn't feel the need to comment on it. The tired announcement of unorthodoxy - so regular as to be its own orthodoxy - however, requires some mockery, or else people might start taking it seriously. Er, I know that might be an unpopular position but... :eyes:

[Malikshah]

18. Bingo! Give the poster a see-gar!

Other variations...

"I know I shouldn't say this..."

"You know, this may be unpopular, but..."

There should be a Top 10 a la David Letterman.

"I don't mean to be rude.." -- then don't. :)

[wtmusic]

88. A devastating critique

You really tore into the MEAT of OP's comments! DU is certainly fortunate to have an astute cliché detector like you around. Keep working on that journal. It will be VERY valuable...to someone...someday. :eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

95. Since the OP's post appears to rip a new one for maybe 8 people

in the whole world, and just the plum crazy of those eight really believe it, I didn't think it necessary to critique. it's about as meaty as beating up on people who think baseball isn't a real sport. I'm sure there are some around, but nobody listens to them and they're obviously wrong. wasting a lot of time penning diatribes against them seems very thin broth indeed. long story short: the OP's critiue is about as meaty as a solitary bouillon cube in Lake Michigan.

the particular cliche thing, on the other hand, is damn near ubiquitous on these boards - the laughable pretention to unorthodoxy - and requires taking down a peg.

intervene where it does some goddamn good, I say.

I'll make sure to pm you when you can get rss feeds of my journal entries related to documenting this ridiculous phenomenon.

cheers.

[TheFarseer]

105. not necessarily

Rush and those assholes make it sound like every registered and elected democrat believes high gas prices are good. We get hung with our crazy people and the RW never gets hung with their crazy people. It's aggravating as hell.

[alcibiades_mystery]

106. The day that Limbaugh = reasonable exigence

Is the day I smash this laptop.

I mean, really now. Hung with the 4 crazist of the 8 crazies. Riiiiiight.

[Leopolds Ghost]

144. If only 8 believe high gas prices are inevitable & in some ways necessary

Then America has more problems than I thought.

As it happens, I read an article every day -- from left, right and center -- about how sheltered Americans are when it comes to high gas prices. The fact is, Americans drive too much. Americans drive 4 times as much as they did in the 1950's. I don't believe that rich people OR poor people are entitled to such an existence, and I wouldn't choose it for my family. And no, it doesn't matter where you live. Most cities have the same amount of walkability / bikability / public transit as most small towns. Which is to say, very little. But certainly as much as they did in the 1950s, maybe a bit less. What has changed is attitudes. In most small towns, people turn up their noses to see people marching their kids a mile to school or biking somewhere or god forbid, using the bus that they pretend don't exist. That's considered hobo behavior!!! The only thing I truly NEED a vehicle for is to get construction supplies -- and guess what? Like most people, I need to borrow someone with a truck to pick those up. Like most people who don't shop at Wal-Mart, I don't need a truck to pick up 500 pounds of discount-sized packaging.

By the way, every billion dollars we're spending in Iraq is a billion dollars that, once the war is over, -- y'all -- and other well-meaning progressives will claim we -- simply can't afford -- (at least not until the world is changed) to invest in decent public transit or a walkable street grid in some small town which, in many other countries around the world where gas prices topped $4 decades ago, would already have both.

[Rowdyboy]

13. The people high energy prices hurt the most are those who are least

able to afford it. The poor, working class, and elderly already pay through the nose for food, housing, and medicine. Now explode their transportation/heating bills (not to mention how much food prices will skyrocket as transporting food becomes more expensive)

Anyone wishing for high fuel prices is hoping for misery on the lower/middle classes. Increasing poverty and hunger isn't the answer to energy conservation.

[cynatnite]

17. Some need to consider these trucking industry statistics

The trucking companies, warehouses and private sector in the U.S. employs an estimated over 9 million Americans within the industry. Of this figure UPS employs 60,000 workers

Estimates of 15.5 million trucks operate in the U.S.. Of this figure 1.9 million are tractor trailers.

It is an estimated over 3.3 million truck drivers in the U.S. Of that one in ten are independent, a majority of which are owner operators. Canada has in excess of 250,000 truck drivers.

Estimates of over 360,000 companies in the U.S. Of that figure 96% operate 28 or fewer while 82% operate 6 or fewer trucks.

Estimates are the operating ratio is 95.2. This means for every dollar in revenue the trucking company has a cost of 95.2 cents. Leaving them with a profit of 4.8 cents of every dollar.

The average estimates that a driver makes is 30.3 cents per mile. Average yearly income for a driver is 32,000/Year. The average owner operator makes slightly more.

http://www.truckinfo.net/trucking/stats.htm

Consider this when some DUer's cheer the high gas prices. The trucking industry feels it first. Some companies will go under due to the gas prices. Look at how many smaller trucking companies there are. They'll be hit the hardest first. The larger companies, and usually the worst ones a driver can work for, are able to take the financial impact of higher gas prices.

The harder it is on the trucking industry to withstand the impact of higher gas prices, the more the consumer will feel it. There are more people living at or below the poverty level including many drivers and their families.

[bemildred]

21. Bring back the railroads.

Featherbedding unions and all. We'd be better off.

[renate]

19. I think you're absolutely right

A slow, incremental, predictable increase in gas prices to $3 or $4 or more would be one thing--people would have the opportunity to choose homes near bus lines, buy more fuel-efficient cars, insulate their homes better, etc. The free market would have time to bump up production of mopeds and bicycles and towns would have time to create more bike lanes. The market would also see more research into sources of energy like solar, hydroelectric, or wind power. These would all be wonderful things--IF they happened over a long period of time.

But those who are least able to afford higher gas prices are getting absolutely pounded as they drive from their first minimum-wage job to their second. It's awful.

Thank you for your post. I am driving less now so I don't see my parents as often, but that's nothing in the big picture. The only real habits that the abrupt increase in gasoline prices is changing are working-class people's habits of eating and having shelter. The more fortunate among us just feel a little pinch of pain when we fill up, but it's nothing like how people living paycheck to paycheck must feel. I don't know how the oil executives live with their bigger-than-ever bonuses--it's filthy money made from poor people's suffering.

[SeattleGirl]

20. That attitude bothers me too.

And no, not every environmentalist has that attitude, not every environmentalist cheers higher gas prices. But for those who do, it's a very narrow attitude, I think, because they are not looking at the larger picture, which you and others brought up: not everyone lives where public transportation is convenient. Not everybody has a work schedule that makes public transportation convenient. I live in Seattle, and did not have a car for 4 years. That worked out for me, pretty much, because I lived just a mile from where I worked and went to college, and downtown was easy for me to walk to, or bus to. But for awhile, I had a part-time job on Saturdays, and while I could take a bus most of the way there, the bus that covered the last three miles did not run on Saturdays, so I walked it. It was okay on nice days, but on crappy weather days, it sucked. Thank goodness it was just one day a week. But what if that were my full time job? What if there was no bus at all for those last three miles? There are people who face just that very thing, and who therefore drive to work. As to the suggestion that they walk or bike, there is nothing wrong with that suggestion, but what if they are not able to? What if they have a physical disability that precludes them from being able to do that? I worked with a man who was confined to a wheelchair. Should he "ride" his chair 20 miles to work? Where he lived at the time, the closest bus stop was over a mile from his house.

I, too, support public transportation, car pooling, and most especially, alternative sources of fuel. But I don't support cheering higher gas prices that hurt middle and lower income families and individuals, not only in filling their gas tanks, but in costs for many other goods, such as food and other necessities. And I don't support cheering higher gas prices that hurt people who may not have any other source of transportation but their cars to get to work and back.

[Submariner]

22. It makes fueling up my escape-mobile (Tahoe) expensive

but I'm glad I don't use it for commuting. My 4WD is what keeps me sane and keeps my head from exploding when I can drive out on the beach at Race Point (Cape Cod) and drive down to Nauset watching the gulls and bluefish hitting the baitfish and not think of the Bush Cabal. So even though I'm an environmentalist (career marine biologist), I'm not cheering high fuel prices.

[Pirate Smile]

23. I bet if you did a poll, most DU'ers would agree with you. The options

people have are very limited unless you are rich enough to do whatever you want, whenever you want. That is a very small number of people.

I agree with you.

[Pirate Smile]

24. Whoops! Happy clicker finger.

[tandot]

25. Thanks for posting this, bluestateguy

I can't change my driving habits because I need my car for work. I can't afford to buy a new car. I am still paying off my loan for my 1998 Toyota Corolla, which I bought used. I am getting 37 mpg, though.

I usually stay away from threads about gas prices because of the "high gas prices are great" posts.

[tlsmith1963]

27. High Gas Prices Hurt the Poor

I don't think it's something we should be cheering. Yes there are people who need to cut back, but there are others who will be really hurt by this. It's not a good thing. Actually the first post explained this really well, so I have nothing more to add.:thumbsup:

Tammy

[WildEyedLiberal]

30. Another thing - this argument really reminds me of people who advocate

For an overturning of Roe V Wade, because they argue that the backlash against outlawing abortion/birth control would result in an overthrowal of conservative right-wingers from government. My ex-boyfriend - a "latte liberal" disconnected from the realities of average Americans if ever there was one - made such a comment once, that he hoped Republicans actually would outlaw Roe V Wade, so that people would vote them en masse out of office.

It didn't seem to bother him that such a plan would be selling out MY civil rights - and the civil rights of 150 million other Americans - as long as it furthered a political end. Hoping for sky-high gas prices to "force" people into using less gas is the same sort of tactic, IMO. It doesn't matter how many real living people are hurt by it as long as it achieves some desired political end. Such thinking is as far from liberal as I can imagine.

[buddysmellgood]

31. You're going to whine even more when $4 hits. The fact is, gas is cheap.

Almost everyone else pays more, and they have working class people too. So hooray for higher gas prices. It's the only thing that will save our planet.

[bluestateguy]

33. "So hooray for higher gas prices"

If that's what you want, then I suggest you support Bush, because he will give that too you.

[CAcyclist]

143. I can't believe how in denial you and everyone else is

One would think that we were driving cars for thousands of years the way all of you go on about how you can't do this and can't do that.

Well, this world is DYING because you are too lazy to change your way of life - it's AMERICANS that are killing this planet - WE are the ones who are consuming 25% of the resources and contributing the most pollution. Without us leading the way to a more sustainable life, there is no way third world countries will do anything but follow us down our disasterous path.

Clearly the carrot-only approach isn't working. A little tiny stick of a couple dollars a week more for the price of gas may be just the thing to get people to start changing their way of life. It isn't that hard and you aren't going to die, even in the suburbs and the country.

[bluestateguy]

160. Yeah! Those lazy, wasteful pig Americans!

I think you should suggest that strategy for the Democrats to use in the next elections.

[buddysmellgood]

153. If you think a Democrat will bring you lower gas prices, you are deluded.

[WildEyedLiberal]

34. "Everyone else" also live in tiny countries

And most people don't commute to work. When I was in Austria, I noticed that people rarely left their small villages - a family I stayed with had lived in the same village for hundreds of years and had been to Linz - the nearest city - something like 5 times in the past 20 years. The culture in places like Europe isn't nearly as mobile.

Alternative and renewable enegry sources are the only things that will save our planet. Meanwhile, until we invest in those, I fail to see how screwing the middle and working class at the pump is helping anyone. The rich who make these environmentally destructive policies will not suffer any repercussions, while the poor and middle class get poorer each year. Sky-high fuel prices are going to destroy the middle class, not save the planet - and you don't think that's exactly what the wealthy corporate owners want?

[Strelnikov_]

57. "People Rarely Left Their Small Villages"

And soon, we shall be living in a similar manner.

The age of cheap oil has ended.

We were given a one time Thermodynamic gift with which we could have built a sustainable civilization, and we wasted it on suburbs and interstate highways.

[bluestateguy]

59. Oh brother

:eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

108. --countries with good transit systems!

Also, people walk more. Because the towns or cities they live in are more compact.

Cities built in the age of the automobile need to adapt to the new age. Hard to do--when our tax dollars are being wasted in overseas adventures. Meanwhile, those who really need to drive are getting hit hard.

[trekbiker]

124. I'm with you Buddy..

we are getting what we deserve.. do the idiots think we can piss away the worlds limited resources in our giant gas guzzlers, 5% of the worlds population using 30% of the worlds energy?? Even at $3/gallon I'm still commuting on a packed freeway with 90% of the vehicles containing one person. The only way the stupid american public ever changes is thru PAIN. And I'm definately looking forward to the technologies that will rise out of this.

I dont like the fact that oil companies are reaping this windfall, would rather these high prices be the result of intelligent taxation and energy policy, but this is America.. land of fools and wastrels..

[Lorien]

156. Well said. n/t

[Robb]

150. Hooray for $12 pints of milk...

...hooray for heating crises, hooray for you. :eyes:

[WePurrsevere]

32. Higher oil prices also mean higher prices for basics like food & heat. ->

Something those of us in the north country will need very much so come this coming Winter. For the poor, fixed income and middle class those higher oil prices will hurt even more then this past winter (and trust me they hurt a LOT).

The ones that are hurt the most by rising oil costs are those already struggling to make ends met that keep moving further apart as they try to pull them closer. Although I see the POV of environmentalists, and would certainly rather see less use of oil myself, we and most others in a similar situation are not set up to handle this crisis and not able to do much to get set up financially. If we could... we gladly would.

[LittleClarkie]

35. They might as well be cheering for golden vacation packages for

oil execs.

Can we cut down oil consumption without making those bastards rich on the future's market?

[MazeRat7]

36. Sure thats easy for poser environmentalists to say.....

Your point is well taken and quite frankly unless someone is living the "totally environmentally conscious life-style" perhaps it would be better to hold their tongue. You know that annoying old adage of "actions speak louder than words"...

So you've got my support, my take is unless you are:

1) Living completely off the grid in terms of power for your home
2) Growing you own food and purchasing only the most essentials (flour, seed oil, sugar, spice, etc)
3) Generating your own fuel, be that bio-diesel, hydrogen, etc

Perhpas you might should consider living more by example rather and less by rhetoric.

That being said, I am sure there are some that erroneously believe that if gas prices soar there will be some sort of national "awaking" making everyone more willing to find/fund alternatives and conservation. Unfortunately, that line of thinking is paramount to living in a fantasy land. All higher gas prices will do is cost people more of their hard earned money, increase the level of civil discontent (crime, cheating, hostility, etc), and generally take us further down the path of a failing empire. Can you say "Rome" *wink

It may well be too late to turn this Valdez around. Perhaps with some sort of national unity, which is rare, we the people (all the people) might find it in our best interest to make some hard but necessary choices. Thats going to take the one thing this country does not have... leadership.

Unfortunately, we are a culture of "I" and will follow in the steps of other civilizations who also came to believe that "I" was more important than "US".

MZr7

[GreenArrow]

40. maybe if people had been paying attention

to what environmentalists have been telling them for years and years we could have avoided this situation. Hard choices could have been made 30 years ago to save us from harder choices now.

[MazeRat7]

46. Isn't that so true.

I can think of a dozen analogies of putting off until tomorrow what you can do today...but none are needed. Bottom line, the longer "we" wait the harder and more severe the choice becomes. At some point, its going to be beyond personally painful.

MZr7

[Joe Fields]

93. The truth is, we Americans are pigs......

who can only learn lessons the hard way.....when either a crisis hits, or when it is too late. And when the crisis passes we go back to our old gluttonous ways.

We didn't learn a damned thing from the oil embargo of 1973. We should have learned many things from it, but Detroit continued to build gas guzzlers, losing more and more of their market share, while ecology and economy conscious people bought Hondas and Toyotas. It took years for Detroit to "get it.," and build comparable cars.

We should have had legislation banning the further production of gas guzzling personal vehicles. We should have had legislation which rewarded carpooling. We should have gotten serious about alternative energy.

But what happened? None of the above. And once the fuel crisis passed, Detroit cranked up the production of bigger cars again, consumers forgot and bought mini-vans, pick up trucks and suv's. Hummers became the "in" thing for the yuppies.

And we STILL DON'T HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE ENERGY PROGRAM IN PLACE! We had more than thirty years and unlimited resources to create one, but we lacked one thing. The commitment to make one happen and change our selfish habits to make it workable.

I, for one never held out any hope for one any kind of alternative energy program, once Bush and Cheney took office, but Ford, Carter and Reagan should have led the way. They didn't. Why? Because we selfish Americans didn't give a damn, and don't give a damn until it costs 75 buck to fill our precious suv's.

I am poor, and I don't particularly want five dollar a gallon gas, but if that's what it takes for the public to get fed up enough to force our leaders to create a sound energy policy that cannot dictate foreign policy and help save our planet, then so be it.

[pitohui]

103. you may be a pig, i'm not

who is this "we" you speak of?

you are certainly ill informed, $5 a gallon gas means that every mountain in the rockies will be drilled or destroyed for tar sands

every mountain in the appalachians will be destroyed for coal

but that's OK w. you because it keeps the poor in their place, no poor person should have a car or any freedom of movement, that is a little too much like democracy and freedom!

no sound energy policy can come from over-priced gas, that is why bush has pushed policies that raise oil prices such as wars in the middle east and not protecting our workers in the domestic oil industry in louisiana

if you haven't caught on by this time of century to who benefits from high oil prices, i'd have to say you are really not paying any attention to reality!

pick up a newspaper and read the front page!

[Joe Fields]

107. What cave have you been living in?

How old are you, anyway. I speak from years of experience and acute observation of the American experience.

It always takes a crisis for Americans to get off their ass and do something. I thought I made this clear in my post, but your head must be foggy from just waking up and you must have missed my point entirely.

If you haven't caught on by now, oil companies are going to make their profits, no matter what. To suggest that I pick up a paper and read the front page is laughable. I read a dozen or so papers of a morning, skim through various websites for late breaking information and do a great deal of research on topics such as oil and the socioeconomic impact of it.

I suggest that when you want to jump up and criticize someone for their remarks, you read and understand carefully what they have written.

The bottom line, in my many years experience as an American, is that nothing will be done about a growing crisis, until a great many American's oxen are gored.

[Bridget Burke]

109. The people who MAKE those choices don't worry....

They just call their driver & get a ride to the next appointment. Or lunch with a lobbyist.

Perhaps they wince when they gas up the SUV for a long weekend--but the cost doesn't really affect their standard of living.

[Change has come]

72. Very well said

"Unfortunately, we are a culture of "I" and will follow in the steps of other civilizations who also came to believe that "I" was more important than "US".


The only good thing about high gas prices is the black eye it's giving the * Cartel.

[GreenArrow]

38. whether cheered or not

the trend of rising prices is not going to change.

Most of the environmentalists I know have more of a "sneering contempt" for the rich, whose short-sighted policies and grubbing for lucre have helped drive us into this mess to begin with, and a considerable wealth of sympathy for the poor, who are always most direly effected by these policies. There is considerable exasperation directed at both sides as well.

We need not have come to this point.

[smoogatz]

39. Trouble is, they're right.

Not that $3 or $4 (by this time next year--guaranteed) gas is entirely a good thing--but high gas prices and only high gas prices will change behavior, and will ultimately result in decreased consumption--and that IS a good thing. The road from here to there will undoubtedly be tough on the poor, though--it certainly was in the 70's and 80's; the poor always get stuck with the aging, gas-guzzling used car fleet that the middle class are able to shed in favor of more efficient vehicles when gas prices spike. And we're not even talking about the increase in across-the-board inflation that rising gas costs inevitably trigger: it's not just gas, it's the price of everything that requires gas to produce or transport.

[bemildred]

45. The doubling period seems to be around 5 years.

So we can expect $6 gas by 2011. But that is probably optimistic, as it seem reasonable to think the rate of increase is exponential.

[MazeRat7]

50. Higher prices will change behaviour... but not where energy is concerned.

From a previous post:

...I am sure there are some that erroneously believe that if gas prices soar there will be some sort of national "awaking" making everyone more willing to find/fund alternatives and conservation. Unfortunately, that line of thinking is paramount to living in a fantasy land. All higher gas prices will do is cost people more of their hard earned money, increase the level of civil discontent (crime, cheating, hostility, etc), and generally take us further down the path of a failing empire.

People will not change. They are and will continue to be only concerned with themselves. When their cost for goods and services that depend on gas increases beyond acceptance - they will look, blame, and lash out at everything outside their personal domain.

MZr7

[smoogatz]

87. Past experience here, and the experience of other countries/continents

is a pretty clear indicator that you're flat wrong. People DO drive less, and DO drive more efficient vehicles when the price of gas is high. Check out Western Europe, where gas has been over $3 a liter for pretty much ever.

[MazeRat7]

120. If we were a rational lot I would agree....

But based on the American appetite for consumption of all things, a general attitude with many that we are somehow superior to those "Western Europeans", and the fact that so many refuse to understand our place in the global economy/environment... I don't think this country will act sensibly at all. I really believe they will kick, scream, gnash teeth, and generally act like children rather than make the necessary hard choices.

But that is just my opinion.

MZr7

[dcfirefighter]

41. High Fuel Prices are GOOD.

Call me holier than thou. I don't care. We'll never stop burning oil & coal unless they are too expensive to do so.

The reason you can't afford a house closer to work are because 1) real estate is a pyramid scheme and 2) your wages are suppressed. Both can be fixed by changing the tax laws. Quit taxing work, investment, building & making things, selling things,etc. Start taxing witholding & using natural resources. Bingo, more work and employment, higher wages, more affordable housing; less pollution, sprawl, and fossil fuel use.

We should RAISE taxes on fuel, specifically by enacting a Carbon Tax. More importantly, we should use this tax to pay for a Universal Energy Credit, fully refundable on your taxes. Start at $5/ton ($0.05 a gallon), which would raise $8 Billion a year, enough for a per person credit of $30. Raise it every year to $50/ton or $0.50 a gallon, which would provide a per person credit of $300.

At the beginning, the average 'poor' working family of four would face a tax increase of less than $40, and yet gain a credit of $120. At the end, such a family would face a cost increase of less than $400, and yet gain a credit of $1200.

Certainly a better option than:
1) ignoring the problem
2) continuing to merely study the problem
3) merely spending more money on transit (which will mostly just make some landowners richer)
4) legislating a slight increase in the percent of energy generated by non GHG means.

Human desire is infinite. Some call it greed. Regardless, there is always a Demand for goods and services. The less these goods and services are provided by fossil fuel, the more they must be provided by the Labor of humans.

[Blue_Tires]

67. good insights

and from what i've seen, it's not so much environmentalists celebrating, but more of an "i-told-you-so" tone

[muriel_volestrangler]

121. A good post

because I don't see anything apart from economic pressure convincing people to get politicians to make changes. Look at how the Senate rejected the Kyoto Agreement overwhelmingly. As long as people think they can get away with their present lifestyle, they'll try to. Your way of rasing fuel taxes, but returning it as a per person credit will mean those who actually are poor will benfit, or break even, while those who over-consume will find the price of their fuel and goods go up.

[Viking12]

146. Add me to the list...

Oh yeah, my urban elitist environmentalist credentials... I live in a mid-size town (<100,000) with no public transportation and have an annual income well below the national mean & I drive to work 32 miles to round trip. Gas prices hit the family pocketbook pretty hard; short-term they hurt. I'm glad to pay the higher prices; long-term they spur investment in alternative fuels & transportation and reduce fossil fuel use. My kids will be better off in the long run.

On edit: Spelling

[Lorien]

157. An excellent post. Personally I'm all for anything which may eventually

lead to the demand for a National high speed and light rail system. Every time I return to the US after using such systems overseas I feel like I've stepped into the fucking dark ages; why does ANYONE think that being stuck for hours in rush hour traffic is "convenient"? I'm not wealthy; lower middle class income (at best), but I'm more than happy to cut back and sacrifice if it means that the planet survives a bit longer. Fossil fuels have, are, and will cost us dearly in many ways. Demand innovation. Demand great public transit (the poor don't own cars and require it too survive). Remaining a fossil fuel based economy only serves to enrich BushCo and their many cronies and enablers. Why would any of us desire that?

[huskerlaw]

163. You're still screwing the poor

Because even if the market finally forces car manufacturers to build more fuel efficient/hybrid/electric/etc. cars, poor people won't be able to afford them.

So you tax the gasoline, which they still have to use because they're still driving their 15 year old pile of shit car while the rich people buy a shiny new electric hybrid thing and don't have to pay the tax.

Fabulous.

[Just Me]

42. I'm just pissed off that Cheney's energy-profiteering plan is succeeding.

And those fuckers are exploiting the hell out of Americans!!!!

THAT PISSES ME OFF!!!

Does that fit in with your rant?

[bluestateguy]

43. I guess

I don't see why every post has to be about Bush and Cheney, Bush and Cheney.

But you want me to be pissed at Cheney's energy-profiteering plan? Fine. I'm pissed.

(throat clearing)

Now, back to environmentalists who cheer on high gas prices...

[Just Me]

44. I'm focused. So, sue me. The fuckers have succeeded in profiteering.

You want to focus on "environmentalists". I prefer to focus on the OBSCENE FUCKING PROFITS BY THE ENERGY INDUSTRY.

So, sue me. :rofl:

[GoneOffShore]

47. Sorry Bucko

I lived in England for 10 years back in the seventies. Didn't always have a car, or a bicycle or a job. When I did have a job, sometimes I had to walk into Nottingham from Stapleford. 10 clicks.

The price of gas is not high enough. Not for the rich, not for the poor, Not for Americans.

Everyone else in the world pays at least $6-8 per gallon, and that is the true cost. Get the cost near reality, and despite your premise, we WILL find alternatives.

We just need the will to do it. The same way we need the will to move to a single payer healthcare system. But that's another topic and a different rant.

[bluestateguy]

48. More urban elitism

I'm a peppery populist.

I stand with the people.

[Just Me]

49. If you stood with the people, you wouldn't distract from Cheney's energy,.

,...plan to profiteer off your people,...would you?

Good grief.

[bluestateguy]

51. Looks like I got caught by the "soft on Bush" police

and that's not where you want to be on DU: accused of being soft on Bush. It's like being called soft on Communism in 1952. I must be a DLC whore or even a Bushbot because I neglected to mention Cheney's energy crookery.

[GoneOffShore]

52. It's not urban elitism

It's reality.

Justify driving vehicles that get gallons per hour, please. Make the case that lower gas prices are good for the environment, the economy, please. You have done neither. You're defending the indefensible.

The US has destroyed its transportation infrastructure at the behest of the automobile manufacturers, Goodyear and the oil companies. We have NO public transportation because we have been sold the false notion of the 'freedom of the road' by oil companies who believed that the resource was limitless.

It's too late. We're all going to be back to growing vegetables in our yards, chicken coops in what used to be our SUV's (those of us who were foolish enough to have bought them) and bicycling to get to work. Oh, and that windmill? Better make sure it's still working so that you can pump water from the polluted well you'll have to dig.

[bluestateguy]

53. I wasn't aware that we had no public transportation

What is the SEPTA in your city, a model railroad set?

[GoneOffShore]

92. It is indeed

Used to be that SEPTA before it was SEPTA ran a pretty good system.

Now, because of funding cuts - 'Public transport has to make a profit' - Where did that meme come from? - SEPTA is a joke. The buses have replaced most of the trolley's, the staff is surly and the fares are some of the highest in the land.

I'll bicycle or walk before I'll get on a bus in Philly.

[Bridget Burke]

111. Refusing to take the bus is Elitism....

What's the racial makeup of bus riders, please? And of the uppity staff?

[GoneOffShore]

114. Back off

It's nothing to do with the racial makeup of the riders or drivers. It's the fact that SEPTA buses do not run on time and 90% of the drivers, be they black or white, male or female are pissed off at SEPTA because of their contract and so are surly with the passengers. SEPTA also has some of the worst customer service reps I've ever encountered.

SEPTA fares are also some of the highest in the country.

Oh yes, and SEPTA bus drivers drive AT bicyclists. Had it happen to me more than once and to my wife and other bicyclists we know.

So, you know not of what you speak.

I'm more than happy to take the bus in NYC, in London, and anyplace that has a reasonable public transport system.

[Bridget Burke]

119. Sorry! I looked up SEPTA fares. Houston METRO is better.

And Houston is not known for its mass transit system.

Because of where I live & where I work, METRO suits me for commuting. For many Houstonians, this is not possible. But a few DO avoid mass transit for the wrong reasons.

[insane_cratic_gal]

86. I would love to have half the selection Brits have

in cars!

Just half!

American car makers are big piggish when it comes to automobile design, but I think they are starting to wake up.

Sure I can get a Geo prism but it's not designed as well as your selections are. We really need to change that.









for instance look at these two sites

http://www.chevroleteurope.com/

http://www.chevrolet.com/


You see the difference? I agree with what Blue has had to say. I also agree that Americans need to set aside the idea of boat tugging rigs and tahoes.
Europe has been way ahead of us in conservation. America is now discovering the ugly side of Marketing and the uglier side of Corporate Oil raping of a class of people.
And America, being relatively new is a spoiled country, We are the evil Willy Wonka children who get sucked up into fans or blow up into grapes. We know it. We acknowledge it. Most of us are trying to change it.

So just perhaps a little less the "SKY is falling" and a little more.. Here is what we as an older country, culture have learned? Maybe we should be following their example and learning.
Now that changes nothing about the getting the asshole in the oval office comply, being the fuck-up, err I mean decision maker that he is now.

[FlaGranny]

133. Good lord - do they have one

that will hold me and my husband and some groceries?

[insane_cratic_gal]

135. They Do! this one is probably considered the cadillac

Or the Subaru but most of them don't get any larger then that.

Makes you wonder why our own population is driving these?



My point of all of that, perhaps we need to refocus our marketing campaigns to smaller Euro cars, then we wouldn't be so frightened to drive beside the hummers on the highway?

[FlaGranny]

142. Okay, I could handle that one.

I agree, I don't understand Hummer drivers.

[bvar22]

64. You obviously don't stand with the people....

...who believe that the #1 problem facing the WORLD today is the increased spewing of CO2 and other toxins into our atmosphere.
Those would be the Reality Based people.

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Leopolds Ghost]

147. I'm a populist too, and opposed to urban elitists

Especially those who want to use up the entire US transit budget on boondoggles benefiting rich landowners, like trolley systems in towns that, of comparable size in other countries, have subways. Or freeways cutting out the heart of small towns that in other countries, would have a trolley connecting it to the nearest employment center. The fact is, the big standard I would choose to select a place to live is (a) is it affordable? and (b) do they turn up their nose at people like me who choose not to drive? Is it populist to turn up your nose at people who are too poor, too elderly, disabled, or simply have an ethical aversion to the mass consumption of vehicles that cost as much as a place to live?

I am not a traditional environmentalist, btw. I DO believe in the existence of urban elitists who pay a premium to live near public transit, drive everywhere anyhow, insist on lots of parking in every new development that the developers themselves don't want to build (because "everyone knows those newcomers won't take transit nearly as much as we do -- they'll just use up OUR street parking spaces!") and generally never did shit for anybody. Many of them are my neighbors (and I wouldn't choose to live where I do today, but the consequences of scarce public transit have caused a real estate Ponzi scheme in places that have it.)

[Bridget Burke]

110. Alas, America is not as cute & cozy as the UK....

I use mass transit for commuting. But it is really not possible for many of my fellow Houstonians.

[GoneOffShore]

115. Having a good public transport system

has nothing to do with 'cute and cozy'.

It has to do with will. Pressure the pols and it is possible to get decent transport.

Remove the incentive for automobile transport and public transport will grow.

[entanglement]

54. High gas prices definitely hurt the working / middle class

But, if I understand correctly, the thinking is that a bit of hurt now forcing remedial action is better than a world of hurt ten, twenty years down the line when the oil supply can no longer meet increasing demand.

[Strelnikov_]

61. Um, That Ten To Twenty Years . . Is . . Now

World oil supply has been stuck on ~85 M bbl/dy for the last 1-1/2 years.

We are at peak. We are now screwed.

[lectrobyte]

68. I kind of felt like the U.S economy peaked about the same time

U.S. oil production peaked in the early 70's, and likewise for world oil production and the world economy now. As Einstein would have said, we enter an era of multiple possibilities.

[Strelnikov_]

78. "The Texas Railroad Commission Announced A 100 Percent Allowable . . .

for next month." -Spring 1971

As you say, the mass of people in the US have been losing ground since the 70's. When I became aware of peak oil a few years ago, and found out about US peaking in the 70's, and how we were the 'Saudi Arabia' up to that time, the warning lights started going off.

The Texas Railroad Commission, many years earlier, had been assigned the task of matching oil production to demand. In essence, it was a government-sanctioned cartel. Texas oil production so dominated the industry that regulating each Texas oil well to a percentage of its capacity was enough to maintain oil prices. The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) was modeled after the Texas Railroad Commission. Just substitute Saudi Arabia for Texas. The "100 percent allowable" meant that the TRC was authorizing all well operators in Texas to open their valves to full production. This, however, was no longer enough to allow the United States to hold stable the price of oil.

[Bridget Burke]

112. Sounds like Nader's philosophy.

"Things need to get worse before they get better." No skin off your nose, obviously.

[bluestateguy]

128. Ralph Nader got nice taxcuts from George Bush

So did Barbara Ehrenreich (a Florida Nader voter). It's not like they are the ones who suffer from the policies of the Bush Administration.

[entanglement]

148. Well, you can flame me if it makes you feel better

These gas prices are hurting me, too. I'm just a student struggling to get by. But I'm ready to face reality: the era of limitless, cheap oil is over. Of course I'm angry at Big Oil's obscene profiteering but I'm also acutely aware that Peak Oil is very near (or already upon us, as some claim).
Do you realize that in the future the oil crisis will only worsen and not improve? The first step is for people to snap out of denial mode and face this fact. Blaming / hating the messenger doesn't help.

[Inland]

60. Well, two points.

One is, the adjustments should have been taking place already. I certainly heard plenty of wondering as people bought huge vehicles and moved out into the exurbs in the nineties. So I can't feel all that bad for the people who gambled wrong, or saved money by buying a house out in the boonies.

Second is, and relatedly, people need to understand that THIS IS THE TREND for them to make changes. Big, sharp increases get attention of consumers. No slow boiling of this frog.

I, for one, think that driving is too subsidized. Between tax breaks, practically free leases, and battening down the Middle East, the price of gasoline and roads are not reflected in what they cost consumers. Sad, but true: whether we cheer it or not, and whether it's reflected at teh pump or not, gasoline is going to cost us more and more.

[seg4527]

62. i see what you mean, but

I see what you mean, as I spent a long part of my life in semi-rural pennsylvania.

But now a days, when I'm sitting on the bus at 8 in the morning in a sea of cars in Minneapolis, and we pass the gas station that says 2.85, I can't claim to really care that much. If you do live in a city, it's really not that hard to live without a car. I either walk somewhere, or if it's over a 30 minute walk or so, I take the bus. Grocery shopping, I take the bus 30 minutes and carry my bags on the bus. So do lots of other people.

Honestly, I think it can be a deep psyschological racial thing sometimes. Other than University students, most of the people I see on twin cities buses are non-white. And they're not all "poor" either. Just my experience though.

[Skip Intro]

63. No glee in working class/poor being hurt, but can't help laughing at

the car manufacturers who make products like Hummers, and those that bought them. I feel no pity for someone paying a fortune to fill a tank (while our nation's kids are dying to secure that oil).

And I don't feel bad about feeling that way, at all.

on edit: just felt a need to clarify that I relate to working class/poor because I am working class/poor (and in debt up to my eyeballs)

[lectrobyte]

65. My neighbor just traded his Explorer for a Jetta, said gas prices

were a big factor in his decision. Higher gas prices do lead to conservation and more fuel efficient car sales. Were you around for the oil shocks of the 1970's?

[tridim]

66. Everyone seems to assume that if the US cuts down on consumption...

developing countries like China will too. The fact is whatever petroleum we don't use, China will, and then some.

[stepnw1f]

70. You Sure?

It would be a shame if you turned out to be wrong though. I say we be proactive and not use a cop-out to keep consuming like obsessive compulsive meat heads.

[GreenArrow]

96. the Chinese are acting foolishly

instead of learning from our excessess, they are trying to emulate them.

The entire world is Hellbent on destruction.

[bdot]

71. I've always wanted the gas prices to go up. I'm loving it.

[Imagevision]

74. BuSH: If high gas prices take your attention away from scandals, sobeit!

forget about Fitz and what's going on in Iraq, get pissed about gas and stay --> THERE!

[bluestateguy]

75. Thanks for reminding me. I forgot!

I was so obsessed by gas prices that I was lulled into thinking that we had an honest, trustworthy and ethical White House.

Thanks for straightening me out.

[WildEyedLiberal]

100. .

:rofl:

[kestrel91316]

76. I don't know ANYBODY who is "cheering" at current high gas prices,

however even my RW DBF (until recently a raving Bush fanatic, now mum on him) came out a couple weeks ago and said he thought it was a good and necessary thing, to put more pressure on finding alternatives. I about fell over. I have been saying this for years. He acted like it was all his own idea, lol.

Oh well, any port in a storm..........there is hope for even him.

It is painful for all but the wealthy, but GUESS WHAT? I rarely see Hummers anymore, and the giant SUV population is steadily decreasing. And I see Priuses every time I turn around.

Keep that price pressure ON.

[bluestateguy]

77. Will you pay for my new Prius?

Will you send me a check or direct deposit the money?

[400Years]

125. what do you drive?

[Dave Reynolds]

154. This shithead sounds like they are cheering.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=971050&mesg_id=972694

[BeFree]

81. Interesting

Blame the environmentalists for high prices and let the crooks slide by without nary a whimper.

All part of the divide and conquer platform.....

After all, you could transplant democrats or liberals instead of environmentalists as your target and still get the approval from the RNC, as long as you left the real criminals alone - as you did.

Interesting.

[bluestateguy]

84. I never said the environmentalists were the cause of high prices

Only that some of them, including some posters on this thread, seemed to be rejoicing at high gas prices.

I'm sure the oil companies are enjoying the high prices too.

In fact, people on this thread seem more interested in blaming ordinary Americans for high prices, rather than Bush, Cheney, the RNC and the oil companies.

[BeFree]

89. Oh, I think I get it now

Instead of blasting the crooks for their dastardly deed, you attempt to denigrate people expressing their free speech opinions.

Once again gaining approval of the RNC.

You can stop now.

[bluestateguy]

91. That is the stupidest statement I have ever heard

Every time you or I criticize someone with a different point of view it could be said to be denigrating someone expressing a free speech opinion. Did I ever advocate making anybody's speech illegal? I am a private citizen who has the right to answer speech with speech. If somebody finds my speech offensive they can lump it.

[BeFree]

94. That's why...

...I am lumping you.

Don't you have something better to do than attack DU posters? Hmmmm, maybe not. Another lump on the fire......

[QC]

85. It's a pity that straw men can't be converted to biodiesel or something.

DU could provide the world with cheap, abundant energy!

[lutefisk]

99. If self-righteousness could only charge a Prius's battery...n/t

n/t

[Castilleja]

97. I think the attitude you mention, plus the draft idea mentioned below

is demonstrating a sense of superiority and a fervent wish to force others to do as they wish. It's not nice, and fails to take "gray areas" into account. Elitist is about the nicest way I would describe it... I have no patience with those who wish ill on others just so they can parade their "purity".

[WildEyedLiberal]

101. Got it in one

"I have no patience for those who wish ill on others just so they can parade their 'purity.'"

Right on. :thumbsup:

[pitohui]

102. those are not environmentalists my friend

real environmentalists are aware that the high price of oil and gas means the end of the rocky mountains, which will be destroyed to the last hill for the oil tar sands and other fuel resources there that would not be economic at the lower price

real environmentalists know that the appalachians will be leveled for the coal that wouldn't be worth the mining if oil were cheap enough

cheap oil and gas is v. necessary to our environment, prolonged high oil and gas prices will mean the end of the american landscape and breathable air too

anyone who is really into the outdoors is well aware of this

don't be fooled by freeper fakes trying to make us look like idiots

[The2ndWheel]

113. Without oil, we have slavery

With oil, we're tied to either the facts of geology, or mass manipulation by oil companies(whichever someone believes to be true).

We sure did think this civilization thing through.

[raccoon]

117. Right on! nt

[_ed_]

118. Great Points

I am a very rabid environmentalist, and I live in a very, very rural mountain community in Colorado. It's at 9000 feet above sea level. Most of your points hit home - I've often said the same things.

High gas prices do encourage conservation to a small extent, but a person in my situation cannot really conserve that much gasoline by making different choices. The nearest public transportation is over an hour away! This means that the only conservation you can do is to cut back on unnecessary trips and vacations. You can't stop going to work every day. My commute to work is short - and by short, it's still almost 20 miles. I'd guess most of my neighbors drive more. So, if you cannot pay more for gas, then you must choose to limit your recreation time by driving less on weekends and vacations. So, middle class and working class folks are now paying more for gas, lowering their income, and on top of it all, can't afford to take vacations.

One of my biggest complaints about "big-city liberals" is that many really don't understand what the rest of the country is like. (On the converse, the red-staters that live in my neighborhood don't understand city people, either). If you live in New York City, it's probably easy to throw stones at rural America. "Why can't they just take public trans?" "Why would those people have trucks and SUVs? You don't need them."

The SUV argument is actually similar to the high gas price argument. People who live in cities often just cannot comprehend why anyone would drive an SUV or big truck. I can understand that - THERE IS NO REASON TO OWN AN SUV IN A CITY. IT'S ABSURD. However, people like me and my neighbors almost all have one larger vehicle like a pickup truck or an SUV. The nature of our lives necessitate a large vehicle. I'm miles from a paved road. We get 6 foot snowstorms here, and they don't plow us out sometimes until days later. We all heat our homes with wood burning stoves, and getting the dead wood from forests around here requires some cargo area. You can't haul a horse trailer with a Prius.

I think it all comes down to your overall effort to preserve the environment. My wife and I have two vehicles. One is an SUV, and one is a small car for daily commutes. We don't drive our SUV unless it's necessary. I've had several "city environmentalists" criticize me on this website and others for owning an SUV. One time, the person happened to be from Austin, Texas. He drove a very fuel efficient car, and basically said anyone who drove an SUV didn't care about the environment. I asked him about his home - he had a large one in Austin. I retorted that my energy-efficient cabin in the Rocky Mountains didn't have (or need) air conditioning, all of our fixtures and lights are energy savers, and we generate one bag of trash every two weeks because of our extensive recycling and composting. I asked him about the nature of his home, and he didn't even have energy efficient light bulbs. I think I caused him to see things in a different way.

Long story short, your basic points hit home in a big way. High gas prices DO encourage conservation, but that just isn't feasible for most of the country. And you're right - it's regualar people in rural America that are getting screwed.

[MadHound]

122. A few things

Yes, high gas prices hurt the poor and the working class. But high prices are inevitable, thus whether people are cheering them on or not, they're going to happen. And being as that these high prices will indeed change peoples' driving habits, well, that is, in the long run, a good thing. You state that the high prices last summer didn't change a thing, I beg to differ. It changed my driving habits, and judging from the number of SUVs, pickups and other gas guzzling vehicles, I'm not alone. More people are carpooling, riding bikes, trading in for more fuel efficient vehicles. The last time we faced this sort of gas price crisis, it was actions such as these that eventually led to the US slashing its gas consumption by 1/6.

Yes, it is going to hurt, it always hurts the most vunerable in our society the most. But there is absolutely no way to do what you wish, bring in price hikes gradually and incremently. It would cost too much, adding to our debt, and it wouldn't be as efficient at changing peoples' driving habits. Besides, the oil companies would never go for it.

This is going to hurt all of us, including enviromentalists who are for the most part working class folks themselves. But in the end, it will be better for all of us to kick our dependency on oil. The transition will be painful for most of us, but it has been proven time and again that the only real motivating factor on issues like this is costs. So we might as well get it done and out of the way before things get much worse.

[debbierlus]

131. Unfortuantely, Americans need CRISIS to demand change

I am not happy about high gas prices. They suck BIG time.

But, Americans need to DEMAND alternative energy sources. People have complacent about horrible foreign policies, and irresponsible environmental policies. It didn't effect them, personally.

Change will come when everyone feels it.


'Regular' Americans have shirked their duty of citizen involvement with only half the population voting, and a small fraction actively involved in any political activity. I know they are busy. I know they are overworked. We ALL are! But, if the average American can spend an average of 3 1/2 hours a night watching t.v., then they have time to get involved.

[BiggJawn]

132. Well, some of them showed up here, didn't they?

OK, so they pay $8 a gallon in Merry Olde England. I spent $117 at the drugstore (chemist, for you Anglophiles) last night. How much do the Brits pay for their medicine under the NHS?

If the cost of the Venti, Vidi, Vici Latte you stroll downstairs from your flat to drink with your other bored artiste friends every night goes up in price, will you just accept that as the cost of everybody else "getting it"?

Public transportation? what is this public transportation I keep hearing about?

I don't know how many times I have stated here that $8 a gallon gas hurts most the people least able to do anything about it.

Maybe these "Envoy Enviromentalists" will change their tune when their lives are impacted by the inability of the invisible people they rely on to do life's scut work to get to the job and make their coffee and clean their toilets and watch their precious Golden Children, etc.

[FlaGranny]

139. I agree.

I'd like to see some of these jokers live on $900 a month Social Security and THEN laugh and say how great high prices are. Everyone in this country, especially politicians, should be FORCED to live like that for a year. Their home should consist of an apartment at least a half mile from the nearest public transportion and at least a half mile from a grocery. Then they should be given a temporary case of osteoarthritis of the knees, congestive heart failure, a $200 a month medication bill, and a doctor's appointment at least once a month. Let them try to heat the apartment in the winter and stay cool in the summer. See how much they enjoy living on rice and beans. Then, after that, they should write an assay about how great it is that prices have so nicely risen. The BEST I can say is that some folks don't have a clue about how other people might have to live and they really should.

High prices sure are great? Outragenous elitism. Someone want to lend me about %60.000 so I can buy solar panels and a hybrid car?

[bluestateguy]

152. That's because they are limousine liberals

And we have a few of them here on DU.

[QC]

155. More like Lexus Liberals.

Not enough money for a limo, but just as full of ruling-class prejudices as their more affluent counterparts.

[CAcyclist]

134. Funny, that's exactly what happened in the 1970's

10 % of people were riding their bikes to work during the gas crisis in the 70's as opposed to the .2 - 1% that do today.

I ride my bike to work and I'm not poor, but I am something of a cheapskate. Having to pay more for gas is that little extra kicker to keep me from being lazy and driving. Having a car and keeping it up costs much more money than the mere cost of gas,too but people don't pay attention to the other costs - they just look at the gas costs. It is absolutely not classist or elitist to want gas prices to go up so we can start to develop a more sane transportation system. However, I don't think we should let the gas companies gouge people and make a ton of money either - I think we should control the prices they can charge and install a gas tax that will fund the changes that need to be made.

I also think rationing of gas would be fair - give the average person a very generous allowance, but stop the wastrels that buy a frickin' plane so they can fly to work and back in California - that's ok if you live in Alaska, but not here.

[pitohui]

158. i was alive in the 1970s

i can assure you that no 10 percent of anybody was biking to work in the 1970s

not even 1 percent was biking to work

no one biked to work except maybe the paper boy

all high prices do is make it economic to convert the rocky mountains tar sands into fuel, fine, i don't live in the west so i guess it isn't my problem, i'm tired of defending people who won't defend themselves

high prices for oil and gas benefit no one but the extremely wealthy, they do not promote conservation, they promote drilling in every conceivable area even in areas that wouldn't normally be economic (like the property of beverly hill high school lol) and they promote the expanded use of dirty fuels and technologies like coal

if you care abt the environment and the atmosphere, you want oil kept cheap

by the way...your house...who owns the mineral rights to your lot? do you even know? because if the price of oil gets high enough, you could get a v. nasty surprise!

[AtomicKitten]

137. On the up-side, monster vehicle sales are way down.

[BooScout]

164. You have absolutely no idea about what you are talking about...

....and I'll tell you why. Europe and the UK prove you wrong. Gas prices here in the UK are $6.40 per gallon. We have 1 car...it gets 45 mpg. It stays parked most of the time. We walk to town and get what we need much of the time. We take the train and hey.....even the bus. Yes ordinary Americans are hurt by rising gas prices, but it will take ordinary Americans to car pool, campaign for rapid transit, etc.

When it starts really biting the wallet of Mr Cobb County Georgia Middle Class Guy and he FINALLY realizes that rapid transit is his friend and his primarily white county needs it to get his butt to work with the masses and it won't bring the 'evil dark skinned criminals' into his home territory then that's a good thing as far as I am concerned. And for those who that comment offends......it is the reason Atlanta never was able to complete it's rapid transit system MARTA to all the metro counties. The whites in some areas didn't want the blacks having access to where they lived (I kid you not on that....totally sad and true.}

I don't cheer high gas prices, but they do IN FACT eventually cause people to use rapid transit more.

What I would rather see than high gas prices caused by Oil Companies gouging consumers is the Government putting gas prices up gradually with increased taxation, and those tax revenues used to research alternate energy/fuels and to build public tranportation that is linked across America. If they don't.......then one day, America wll wake up out of gas and be back in the Stone Age. It is almost too late now........Global Warming is very real and we are running out of fossil fuels. Something has to be done.

[Orsino]

166. Gas prices aren't high yet...

...not from an international perspective.

I don't applaud the burden recent price increases have put on American workers, but we need not concern ourselves with whether "high" prices are good or bad. Price increases are simply inevitable when a finite resource remains in demand.

No matter what hardships we non-millionaires face, however, only high prices are going to drive a shift to other energy sources. Better sooner than later, when a collapse of our civilization might be an inevitable consequence.