Is rape about men seeking sex or dominance?

[yurbud]

There seem to be two competing theories of why men rape:

men do it to get sex out of a combination of primal urge and lack of access.

men do it to exercise power and show dominance over women.

any justification for your position welcome.

[Deja Q]

1. I wanna know what women say. About womens' reasons for doing so.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

2. 3/4 of reported rapes have no semen dna trace

was reported on Nightline last night. Some because they are washed or condom use, but others because there is no ejaculation. Learn something new everyday.

[Crunchy Frog]

3. Could there possibly be elements of both?

:hide:

[Xenotime]

6. Yes there could...

It could start off as one thing and then move to another.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. Both, Sometimes Together, Sometimes Only One, Sometimes Other Reasons

altogether.

Why the fuck is every so goddamn black and white on DU lately. Jesus friggin christ.

[TheWraith]

People go crazy, even here.

And here, the crazy people have been out in force. There are times lately when it's been more like RepublicanUnderground: "Agree with everything we say or you're evil!" I look forward to when it will calm down.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. As Do I Friend, As Do I....

I used to know for the most part the level of risk of an angry, nasty or bitter reply to any given post, and whether that post had a high risk of receiving a nasty reply or an extremely low risk etc...

Now, I see so many factual, benign, and non-provocative posts getting attacked at times not only unreasonably, but almost fanatically. It is quite shocking to watch the degeneration of intellect at times.

Fortunately, though, DU is still so full of spot on, educational, informative and invaluable posts and threads. But I agree with you, I look forward as well to when things become a bit more rational again.

[slackmaster]

19. ACK - You're not allowed to make that much sense in here

:argh:

[Syncronaut Seven]

29. You've been averaging a thousand posts a month

for what? 5 months now?

Keep up the good work!1! :toast:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. Not Quite.

More like 800, but holy shit. I never even looked or calculated that. Dammit, the wife is right, I AM obsessed LOL

That just shows how quick DU can move and how addictive it is. Cause out of those 4000 posts since November, I woulda wagered I it had only been 8-900. Seriously, if there was no post counters, and I was forced to guess how many posts I've made, I wouldn't have said more than a thousand. Sad thing is, I can't use DU at work, so I'm mainly only on at night. If I was full time at home I'd probably have 20,000 by now LOL (you think I'm kidding? I'm so addicted that when I do stay home from work sick or something, I do end up spending the majority of my day reading DU :) )

[dysfunctional press]

5. it depends on the circumstances-

for some it's about power and domination-

and for some it's about sex.

but- in the cases where it's about power and domination- that's usually how the rapist gets their sexual gratification- so it's STILL about sex.

[Warpy]

7. It's a HATE CRIME and should be treated as such

Nothing else needs to be said.

[Poll_Blind]

8. Like all crimes against your fellow human, the motivations can be complex.

Humans, unfortunately, are fairly complex organisms. Even the basest of them. I believe that saying rape is always about power/control is as misleading as saying that murder is always caused by hatred. To be sure, the element of control is there in some fashion even, say, for a deviant who drugs his victims in order to facilitate some exploitation, sexual or otherwise. However, it may not always be the dominant factor.

Human thoughts and motivations are a product of our experiences and choices-made.

Motivations behind crimes of this nature, I believe, may be complex in many cases.

PB

[Virginia Dare]

9. Rape is an act of violence...n/t

[Jigarotta]

10. some men of imbalance

are afraid of the power of a woman and will try to disempower with their uglystick missile.

[Schema Thing]

11. The old chestnut "rape is not at all about sex, it's about power" is lame

As is most all black & white thinking.

People with agendas rape the truth for power ;-)

[patcox2]

There's a lot of power to be gained from victimhood, isn't there?

Good post.

[Lautremont]

12. I think it's mostly from the most pathetic of motivations:

namely, losers trying desperately to claw back a measure of control in their lives and turning violently upon people who are physically weaker than them. They've probably been raised in an environment in which a sick measure of admiration is given to rape, and so that's their outlet. Of course, there's more to it, probably, and different cases have different motivations. But they're all pretty pathetic.

[porphyrian]

13. It isn't one or the other.

The people who keep trying to make this argument are wrong. Rape has sexual elements. It also has elements of violence and dominance. The degree to which each applies varies depending on the particular rape in question. Claiming that rape has nothing to do with sex, or conversely that it is only about power and/or violence, is false. Claiming that rape is the same as sex is false. Until we can get past this language/logical barrier, we are going to have a very hard time understanding and preventing rape.

[JVS]

14. I'd say it depends on what you're talking about when you say rape.

If you mean the proverbial back alley attack, power and dominance.

If you are talking about a situation like the one I found here on line, then I'd venture that the person was seeking sex.

"Jill and two friends stayed in a hotel for the week. One night they were drinking in the room. "I was very drunk," Jill remembers. "I couldn't stop falling all over the place." The girls then went to some parties, but somehow Jill got separated from her friends. Drunk and ready to pass out, Jill went back to the hotel with friends, said goodnight, and proceeded to vomit before climbing into bed. By the time her two friends had come home with two males they knew from school, Jill was getting ready to go to sleep. One of the males, whom Jill had never met before, sandwiched himself between Jill and her friend in the double bed. He began kissing Jill without ever introducing himself. She kissed him back, thinking nothing of it.

Jill had no idea how her clothes were taken off. "He just got on top of me and we started having sex," she said. "I just laid there completely still. In my head I was thinking, 'What is happening? I don't want to do this. He doesn't even have a condom on to my knowledge.' I didn't move at all. I don't even know why he continued." Jill does not know if he stopped and started throughout the night. She kept passing in and out only to wake up with it still happening.

"I don't even know if I can call it rape," Jill said. "I was definitely taken advantage of. I never would have done it sober, but it's hard to call it rape because I was too drunk to say no."

But is this rape? Like 55 percent of the women who fall victim to rape attempts and 75 percent of their attackers, Jill had been drinking before the rape occurred. Many people may believe that a woman under the influence of alcohol is somehow more responsible for her behavior than a drunken man is for the way he may use her. Because the legal definition of rape turns on the notion of consent, any sexual contact with a woman too drunk to be capable of giving permission is technically a crime. Jill was drunk, too drunk to resist or clearly say no. There was no consent, thus no question. Jill was raped."
From http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/journalism/magazine/4-97/features/articles/f-daterape.html

[kpete]

16. Rape is an act of VIOLENCE!!!

Trust me, it is NOT EVER ABOUT sex.

[dysfunctional press]

38. sometimes it's about sex.

trust me.

[TahitiNut]

17. Less about sex than dominance; less about dominance than objectification.

For it to be primarily about either sex or dominance, the person/victim would have to matter more than (s)he does. But the person really doesn't matter ... at least not as a person. It's an almost totally self-centered act. In that sense, it is somewhat like masturbation, but in that sense alone. A rapist (in an adult/adult case) must almost totally disregard the humanity of his/her victim. It's just not about them - it's about the rapist. In some statutory rape situations, the domination factor looms larger - but so would the sex.

See http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/222

[guinivere]

18. It's violence and dominance. nt

[Lefty48197]

20. It sure as hell can't be sex.

It's some sort of deep mental illness.

21. lizard brain and no empathy

I have noticed that men don't mind seeing scenes about women being raped in movies, etc, but when it is a man being raped, like in the movie Deliverance, then they react.

[sinkingfeeling]

22. Rape is an act of violence. It has nothing to do with sex. Why do

men, breaking and entering, rape 80 year-old women or physically unappealing women? It's violence.

[northzax]

23. that's one sort of rape

what about date rape? If a woman is too drunk to consent, it's rape, I think we can all agree on that, but it doesn't mean that the male, who may also be that drunk, was intending to commit an act of violence, he may just be really horny, and mistaken about what she wanted.

THIS DOES NOT MEAN that is was not rape, it was. But it doesn't mean it was an intentional act of violence. It's a grey area, but it's still rape.

[sinkingfeeling]

25. I don't agree. In your scene, both parties are drunk out of their minds,

so are both irresponsible, but you have the woman so drunk that she can't speak or is unconscious. If the guy is able to be 'horny', then his brain is semi-working and he is using his brute strength to undress and enter the body of the woman. That is an act equal to breaking and entering a home. The guy knows that he might be denied (if the woman was capable of speaking, but proceeds anyway. It's like someone being away from their house with the door locked and a robber forcibly entering their home. I consider both acts of violence.

Now with other cases of date rape, the lady is not comatose and says, "No, I don't want to go all the way." The 'date' or man she knows, ignores this and uses some level of force to have his way. By definition, this is rape. And since force is used, it is violent (although it might not be in the extreme).

[frankenforpres]

27. i thought drunk

meant couldnt consent?


like the scenario: a drunk guy and girl have sex, the girl the next day says she was raped, cant consent when drunk.


am i wrong??

[northzax]

28. I never said it wasn't rape, mind you

but the difference between someone saying 'no' and someone not saying 'yes' makes it a different motivation, but still the same crime. you could argue that...well, I don't particularly care to imagine a situation, and I don't want to look like I'm excusing anything, which I'm not. without active consent, it's technically rape (which, of course, makes me, and most men, rapists. anyone who has had sex with someone with greatly diminished capacity, from drugs or alcohol or sleep, is a rapist, technically.) Of course, what matters there is context again, if the woman doesn't consider it rape, even if it meets those criteria, is it rape? a tough question. And one reason I choose monogamy.

[frankenforpres]

30. i think the both drunk scenario

is about sex, not power. not a black and white issue. but they dont have like Rape 1,2,3 like Murder. maybe they should, i dont know, it is complex

[sinkingfeeling]

32. You only see it as sex because it is the male who isn't as drunk as

the woman. The fact that one person is 'using' the body of the other is not what I consider 'sex'. See my last scenario with all male participants.

[sinkingfeeling]

31. How about this context? You and your male buddies go to a frat

party and get so drunk that you pass out. Someone carries you upstairs, strips you and puts you to bed. You wake up in the middle of the night and one of your best male friends is actively sodomizing you. Is it rape? Is it an act of violence? They didn't really hurt you or threaten you, do you consider it rape?

[northzax]

34. that would be rape. it would also be a sexual act.

what if I'd been making out with him, in his bed, naked, while too drunk to legally consent? And last weekend, I did in fact, consent to him having sex with me? in fact, every weekend during the party we go upstairs and have anal sex. But this time I pass out. Rape? technically yes. an act of violence? unclear.

I don't think i've been perfectly clear, although I don't see how I wasn't. If one party does not consent to sex, it is rape. I think I've said that several times.

[sinkingfeeling]

40. LOL!! Honey, that's a relationship and you two are going steady!

I'm going to logoff for tonight. Enjoyed the conversation. I just think that sometimes, men and women view things differently.

[Fleshdancer]

42. Really? That is a sexual act?

This is what confuses me...when it happens in Abu Ghraib, it's torture. When it happens in here, it's a sexual act. Interesting.

[northzax]

43. I'd call rape torture, wouldn't you?

doesn't mean it isn't a sexual act.

[frankenforpres]

44. isnt that different

you can tell me if i have the law wrong, im not an expert. im not talking about passed out drunk, i am saying if a guy is loaded and he hooks up with a girl who is loaded (not passed out) and they have sex; isnt the very fact that she was drunk imply that she could not legally consent?

[NashVegas]

24. You Are Confusing Consensual Sex Between Healthy Individuals -

Normal Attraction - For abnormal sexual behavior / attitudes.

[Lochloosa]

26. COME ON MODS..ENOUGH ALREADY!

[northzax]

35. you'd think they'd erased the ignore function

I haven't checked, is the ignore thread button still there? If you don't want to read it, don't read it. Come on. Others are engaging in discussion here.

[patcox2]

39. Yes, there's a serious debate going on, it must be stopped!

People are saying things I disagree with, this discussion must be stopped!

[northzax]

45. and doing it remarkably civilly too

for DU. it's almost like we're having a grown up discussion or something! Someone start a flame war, for the love of God, there's actual sharing of information and ideas going on!

[patcox2]

36. It depends on the rape. Its a mistake to oversimplify.

I think there are two very different situations. There is the prototypical rape, what everyone thinks of when they think of a rape, a man who is looking, seeking, a woman, a stranger, he can overpower and force into sex. Thats not so much about sex as about violence and power.

But then there is the drunken date rape, the drunken insensitive lout who thinks "no" is just what women say when they mean yes, who has been engaged in some sex play that has him aroused and in his lust does not listen to the "no." That is about sex.

To lump the two together, to me, is really denying a real and serious difference.

[Fleshdancer]

41. Most rapes are date rapes....

but this doesn't mean the rapist was drunk or too stupid to respect the word "no". This is part of the power play...the man takes the time and energy to make the woman feel safe. When her guard is down and when she trusts him, he has a greater chance of getting away with his crime. It's a sick game of power.

[patcox2]

52. The power is the woman's.

I disagree that date rapes happen because men want to overpower the woman, because they are motivated by a need to subjugate or humiliate or whatever else is implied by "sick game of power."

Men by and large want sex and certainly do try to make their dates feel comfortable in hopes of obtaining it. But they want sex, and its the women who have the power, most of the time, of allowing or prohibiting the sex to occur.

For the majority of men, even many lunkhead date rapists, its the sex they want, the "power" is only a means.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that there are legitimate and huge differences depending on the situation. All rapes are not the same.

[Imagevision]

37. Rape is about those men with extremely sick minds

[mmonk]

46. It's a violent act of dominance.

[goodhue]

47. It is violence, not sex

I'm amazed folks think otherwise

[frankenforpres]

48. why are they mutually exclusive?

im missing the key to this argument i think, isnt rape=forcing sex upon someone(possibly violently)

where does it say(definition wise) that sex must be consensual


this is like the opposite of the "all sex is rape" idea; no rape is sex. im sort of baffled really

[goodhue]

49. In law school I was taught that rape was violence, not sex

It was the main point of lecture on law of rape in my criminal law class. Of course the particulars of any rape law vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. But when thinking about crime and punishment, it seems obvious that the crime is not intercourse per se, but rather the violent act of unwanted domination.

Encarta encyclopedia explains . . .

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564013/Rape_(law).html

Rape (law)
I. Introduction

Rape (law), sexual intercourse against a person’s will. Most experts believe the primary cause of rape is an aggressive desire to dominate the victim rather than an attempt to achieve sexual fulfillment. They consider rape an act of violence rather than principally a sexual encounter.

In the United States, rape is the most serious form of sexual assault punishable by law, but the definition of what constitutes rape varies from state to state. In all states, if a man forcibly subjects a woman who is not his wife to sexual intercourse against her will, he has committed the crime of rape. Recently, an increasing number of states have extended the definition of rape to include certain nonconsensual incidents of intercourse—even if force was not involved—and the rape of one’s spouse. In other states, rape remains narrowly defined as forcible sexual intercourse, but separate statutes address other forms of sexual assault, including nonconsensual (but unforced) sexual intercourse and unwanted sexual activity other than intercourse.

Many other countries also provide legal redress for women who are raped. However, some countries expect that women will be protected by sexual taboos (social prohibitions) rather than by criminal law. National military codes and international agreements such as the Geneva Convention (1949) prohibit rape by soldiers during times of war or civil conflict. However, in some instances military leaders have actually tolerated and even encouraged rape, either as a “reward” for soldiers or as part of a campaign of terror. Recently, human rights organizations have sought to protect women around the world from sexual violence and to hold those who victimize women, even during wartime, accountable.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Contributed By:
Susan N. Herman, B.A., J.D.
Professor of Law, Brooklyn Law School. Author of Crime Control and Civil Liberties in Criminology: A Contemporary Handbook.

[frankenforpres]

50. not trying to be obtuse

but doesnt that definitely say nearly all cases of rape are in fact sex by definition? i define "sex" as sexual intercourse, is that where i am going wrong?


it is pretty shady that you cant rape your wife in some states, imo.

[goodhue]

51. "i define "sex" as sexual intercourse, is that where i am going wrong?"

Yes, indeed, I think that is exactly the mistake, to assume intercourse equals sex and vice versa. Interestingly, it a commonly held belief in a variety of contexts, but it is in fact inaccurate to my way of thinking. Indeed, Bill Clinton mistakenly resorted to that equation in denying his indiscretions.

In any event, the real point is that the crime is not the intercourse (i.e. sex, by your definition) but rather the unwelcome use of violent force to subjugate the other.