Do you consider Rape to be Sex?

[bloom]

So lets put a poll to it. This is being hashed out here and there. And since I wonder if men and women have a tendency to see this question differently - I'm separating that out.


You may think "other" and want a longer option - but for these purposes answer what most closely resembles what you think.


Feel free to elaborate.

[BIgJohn83]

1. Rape is rape...

it's all about power and violence.

[cynatnite]

2. Exactly. n/t

[Seabiscuit]

166. Ditto.

[Mr_Spock]

3. Silliest poll I've ever seen

JMHO

[bloom]

9. yeah well

You wouldn't believe the arguments about this. Unless you've been reading the same threads that I have.

[Mr_Spock]

61. I believe you

I've been trying to avoid those arguments. I had to comment now that they spilled out into the GD...

[xmas74]

31. To you and I it seems silly

but if you've read some of the responses lately to various threads about rape you'd question exactly what people are really thinking.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

134. I concur. -nt

[file83]

193. The phrasing of the poll is completely ridiculous.

[philosophie_en_rose]

201. I agree.

What the hell difference does it make?

[shamrock]

4. rape is about

controlling the victim through violence and force.

[dysfunctional press]

5. in illinois, the crime of "rape" no longer exists-

it's now called "sexual assault"

so- do i consider "sexual assault" to be sex?
yes.
it is a "sexual" act- by definition.

it definitely isn't "making love"- but it IS sex. at least for the assaulter.

[Mandate My Ass]

13. yes and illegal wiretapping is a terrorist surveillance program

so much for the perspective of the perp chiming in with regard to legality and legitimacy of his/her own crimes. :shrug:

[dysfunctional press]

19. ???

i have no idea what you're trying to say with that.

but the fact is- many states have done away with the word "rape" in regard to the criminal statutes.

[LostinVA]

216. Oh -ho -- great Analogy! I have to remember that one!

[xmas74]

39. Actually, the nice thing about sexual assault is that

it encompasses more than the classic "physical" rape in many areas. Many consider rape to involve penetration only; sexual assault can be, depending on the way the law in your area was written, any contact of a sexual nature that was done w/o the consent of the victim. As I said this does depend on how the law was written but this could include forced kissing, touching, etc.

In a way it does offer more to prosecute. In the past if I had grabbed you it could be argued as a simple assault. In my area simple assault is a misdemeanor and offers, on average, a $50 fine. But w/ a sexual assault law if I had hit on you first, you turned me down and then I grabbed you in a way that you knew was sexual then it could possibly be labeled a sexual assault, which is usually upgraded to an automatic felony.

[yurbud]

6. wait, if it's not sex, what the hell are you talking about?

[dysfunctional press]

10. some people confuse the definition of "sex"...

they think that it's interchangeable with the term "making love".

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

7. Sex Is A Component Of Rape.

(on edit: I didn't vote. The poll is absurd in it's content)

[MichiganVote]

14. For whom? Not for the victim it isn't.

[dysfunctional press]

16. for the offender it is.

there's generally more than just a victim involved.

[bettyellen]

55. bending over backward to please the sociopath? because forward might be

more to their liking!
:hi:

[MichiganVote]

66. Oh sorry, guess I minimized that significant contribution

Thank goodness your highminded appeal to fairness is available to the poor gents.

[jukes]

227. so a heterosexual man

outside of prison that rapes another man is only after sex?

[LynneSin]

241. Have you been raped?

I haven't but I have met people who have.

Just because someone is putting their dinger into a woman's vagina doesn't mean it's sex ESPECIALLY when the woman has repeatedly asked for the rapist to not do that.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. Fact. Sex Is A Component Of Rape, At Least In Some Form.

A forced sexual act has to occur for it to be rape. Period. This is absurd to even question. The very definition of Rape requires that a sexual act have taken place. In the absense of one, it is simply assault, not rape.

Rape inherently requires a sexual act to be performed, most often that act being sex. Period.

[bettyellen]

26. it's really about using the words interchangably, and whether that's okay

because some people in this day and age, still refer to the rape victim as having "had sex" with the rapist.
i was always told that this is unacceptable, and i would have to agree. it's not about the technicalities, really.
so in that context, what do you think?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. Just Needs One Word.

Referring to the victim as having had forced sex would be accurate.

And No, rape and sex are not interchangeable. As I stated originally, sex is a component of rape, by definition.

[bettyellen]

35. just wanted to clarify the bone of contention here.....

because i see a lot of people trying to confuse the issue w/ technicalities, and turn a blind eye to what's right and proper.
tks for your feedback!

[file83]

199. To "have sex" would require the WILL to do it, which most definitely the

victim does NOT have in the case of rape. So, it's not "sex" for the victim's perspective.

It could even be argued that from the rapist's perspective, he is NOT "having sex" during rape, because the "stimulation" isn't coming from the victim, rather it's coming from the "power" he (most likely) has over the victim.

But from a biological/behaviorial perspective (the outside view), looking strictly at the cold animal behavior of the rapist, there is obviously some form of twisted/sick sexual behavior going on, otherwise they wouldn't be manifesting the violence in a manner focusing on sexual dominance.

[MichiganVote]

62. Wrong.

The law defines it as a "sexual" act b/c it involves sexual organs. Has nothing to do with it being a sex act in the same sense as intercourse, masturbation, etc.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

64. You Can't Be Serious LOL

Wait, you are? :rofl:


Listen up clearly please. This is not open for debate. Sex or a Sexual act is a component of rape by definition. This is not opinion. This is not judgement. This is not taking sides. This is simple well established and available fact. If you don't like the definition of rape, damn shame. Lobby to have it changed, what do you want me to tell ya. But the very fucking definition of rape is the forcing of sex or a sexual act upon somebody, period. So yes, sex is a component of rape. Fact. Period. Debating this point has to be the silliest goddamn thing I've ever seen on DU :rofl:

[MichiganVote]

67. Your argument is erroneous

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. The Word Is Factual, Not Erroneous.

But feel free to attempt to use emotional opinion to overcome fact, which is unfortunately the surest sign of a fool. (opinions can NEVER, EVER override fact, for the record)

That's it for me. This is the silliest debate ever and I'm content just walking away laughing my ass of at it's premise. :hi:

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

87. Then your problem is with what words mean.

Or, meanings you have projected onto words.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

125. Is banging a four year old sex? The law uses similar terminology?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

129. Um, Yes.

It is sick, twisted, unthinkable, unjustifiable, disturbing, evil, and a million other adjectives all which end with me wanting the perpeptrator to suffer immeasurably, but the perp still did force sex on the four year old.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

124. Not according to the experts and law enforcement

Try this. Walk up to a cop, a psychologist, a prison psychiatrist and a superior court judge and ask them if rape is sex

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

127. Oh My God Tell Me You Actually Just Said That.

After how clearly I've stated my case you really had the nerve to actually infer that I said "Rape is sex"? Are you kidding me? LOL

I never said that anywhere. Please, read my posts again. They were lost on you the first time through. I would wager on your second read through, you would see the err of your judgement.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

130. I usually don't waste much time doing that but I did oblige you

For the record...anytime your pee pee ...or where they pee pee or poo poo are involved in a crime the word sexual is involved in the definition of the crime...tha's because legal definitions need to be a "catch all" ...that still does not make rape sex even if sexual apparatus are involved in the crime...so your point is moot and irrelevant.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

133. Oh Well. Maybe On Your Third Read Through? LMAO

:rofl:

Yet again, you declared that I implied rape = sex. That is false on it's face and I'm perplexed as to why you are having such trouble with the reading comprehension. Rape and sex are not interchangeable. They are not equal. Rape is the parent, sex is one of several childs, in the branch of hierarchy. Sex is a component of rape. As is violence, selfishness, control, etc... But sex is a component of it, it is not equal to it, but is a component of it. Sorry you have failed to see the real point, rather than the moot one, which was created only by lack of comprehension on your part.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

135. thanks. I feel better now that we have conjugated rape

[bloom]

138. You know that is really fucked up

"Rape and sex are not interchangeable. They are not equal. Rape is the parent, sex is one of several childs, in the branch of hierarchy. Sex is a component of rape. As is violence, selfishness, control, etc... But sex is a component of it, it is not equal to it, but is a component of it."


As if sex is born of rape? The way you described it - you are saying that all sex is rape - that sex is just a small part of rape.


You ought to be laughing at yourself. You are being quite ridiculous. (And quite rude - but I'm sure you are aware of that.)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

180. Ummmmmmmmmm Nope. Not At All. But I Should Clarify.

That is an absolutely wrong assessment of what that means and is way off base. The parent and child reference is merely referencing a hierarchy of detail. I should clarify further what is meant by that reference. Say you are in manufacturing and you are making stereos. The parent product would be the finished stereo. The child products would be all of the components that go into that stereo. Though a knob would be a child part of the overall stereo, knobs are not always child products of stereos. They can be used as parts in a countless number of other products as well. Also, a child part in the stereo can be its own parent product, that has it own child parts that make up its entirety, and so on. In the case of my original context, the parent, meaning the 'end result' is the rape. The child, or a 'component', of that rape is sex, as is several other components I had mentioned. There is nothing wrong with that description as it is an accurate assessment. I think because of the uncommon terminology I used of parent/child, it threw you off as to what was meant. It does not in any way mean sex is always related to rape, as that would be absurd. It just means when rape occurs, sex or a sexual act can be found in the branches descending from the act itself.

[LostinVA]

217. I know... totally illogical... let alone misinformed

[Hosnon]

242. Agree 100%. nt

[cali]

8. Didn't vote

just wanted to say that I found this poll not only stupid but offensive.

[gollygee]

11. Sex happens between two people and rape is done by one person

to another person.

As I said in the other thread.

[dysfunctional press]

23. so- masturbation is rape?

????

[gollygee]

25. If it is done as a mutually desirable act

no.

If someone touches someone's genitalia without permission, then it is criminal sexual conduct.

[dysfunctional press]

28. Rape generally happens between two people-

you're playing semantic games.

"sex" has nothing to do with consent OR emotions- it's merely a physical act.

[gollygee]

30. No rape does not happen between two people

it is not a mutual act. There are not two subjects - there is a subject and an object.

[dysfunctional press]

38. "between two people" doesn't require mutual consent-

why the semantic games?

[gollygee]

40. It's an argument of semantics

The issue is what does the word "rape" mean. How can that be discussed without talking about semantics? Semantics is (are?) precisely the issue here.

[dysfunctional press]

53. you seem to have a problem with what the word "sex" means.

sex is definitely a component of rape.
by definition.

[gollygee]

60. Only if you assume "sex" merely equals "penetration"

which I think is sad

[dysfunctional press]

63. sex can be other things besides penetration-

but yes, penetration is sex...do you get sad over a lot of definitions of words?

[gollygee]

187. OK let's try this

Rape uses sexual penetration as a means of violence, but is a completely different thing from a mutual sexual union between people.

We have to be on the same page about everything other than the definiton of sex. I can't believe any DUer thinks rape and what I consider sex are parallel. I see no point in arguing about the word "sex" but I think it's important to make a strong distinction between the word rape and what my husband and I do.

[LostinVA]

220. Seems like quite a few posters on DU think

"rape and what I consider sex are parallel..."

Oi. Creepy days on here...

[pitohui]

164. semantics? no it should be science

rape is one of the sexual strategies available to many mammals and even a few avian species

it is sad that it happens, sad that it is even possible

but it is most certainly sex and for humans, as it happens, one of the most successful reproductive strategies, which is why genghis khan's genetic material is found in something like one-tenth of all human beings alive today, mr. nice decent monogamous guy is never going to have that degree of reproductive success

if we play word games rather than looking at reality we are no different from the other side

nowhere is it written that sex has to be pleasant or even consented to for babies to be made, i daresay if you believe all the "lie back and think of england" literature, the majority of women supposedly never took any pleasure in sex until around 1978

it was still sex

it wasn't love but if we are at the stage where we can't distinguish love from sex we had better go back to junior prom and start over!

[greyl]

178. Well done, thank you very much. nt

[gollygee]

29. Also

there are TONS of things that are done by one person to another that aren't rape. This thread and this issue is about the physical act of penetration.

[dysfunctional press]

56. pssst....where there's penetration-

thre's sex going on-

"sex" does not imply consent in any way.
it is merely a physical act.

[ComerPerro]

213. Depends on how you ... well... nevermind...

[Stargleamer]

12. Rape is sex to the men who practice it as such. . .

who get off on it. For women, it's a horrid ordeal, something akin to agony.

[Clark2008]

22. They THINK it's sex, but it's still about power and violence, no

matter what they THINK it is.

[Thirtieschild]

78. Absolutely, it's about violence and power

It's about contempt for the victim, overpowering her/him, violating her/him. After my daughter was raped she produced an ad campaign that focused on how helpless/angry/violated people felt when they'd been burlarized. The ad concluded by asking, "How would you feel if that was your body?"

[wiley]

231. I think it's also about class, but you're 100% right

There is no semantic ambiguity here.

[jukes]

228. or for men

who don't consent.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. Defintions of rape

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Arape

[guinivere]

17. Rape isn't sex. To me it is an act of violence. nt

[Xenotime]

20. It also depends on if there is a case of temporary insanity.

There's an article that states that the brain can switch off self-awareness when the it needs to concentrate hard on a tricky task. If a person is suffering from insanity and is not self-aware, what's their percption of what is really happening?

[Ava]

21. hell NO!

rape is rape!

[HockeyMom]

24. Power and control

Are 2 year olds and 80 year olds "sexy"?

[madokie]

27. power and control with a little violence thrown in for good measure

a person who would violate another deserves incarceration, nothing more or less

[SeattleGirl]

33. Rape is an act of violence, period.

It has nothing to do with "sex".

[Phx_Dem]

233. statute link

13-1406. Sexual assault; classification; increased punishment

A. A person commits sexual assault by intentionally or knowingly engaging in sexual intercourse or oral sexual contact with any person without consent of such person.

Sound like sex to me.


http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/01406.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

[Brigid]

34. Of course not.

Rape is about power and bullying and humiliating another person. Period.

[Phx_Dem]

236. you forgot the sex part

13-1406. Sexual assault; classification; increased punishment

A. A person commits sexual assault by intentionally or knowingly engaging in sexual intercourse or oral sexual contact with any person without consent of such person.

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/01406.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

[TahitiNut]

36. It's treating a human being as a means to an end rather than an end

... in himself or herself. This is, in a TahitiNutShell, the core corruption in our society - the commoditization of human beings. We have the exploitation of human suffering at the heart of a corrupt health care system. We have the exploitation of human faith at the heart of corrupt religious institutions. We have the exploitation of human labor and privation at the heart of a corrupt economic system. We have the exploitation of human privation and ignorance at the heart of a military system that coerces its 'volunteers.' In absolutely none of these areas is the human being's health or welfare the primary objective any longer.

Our "pursuit of happiness" is now largely isolated to a treadmill, pumping power and wealth to the most decadent and corrupt of our society.

[F.Gordon]

37. I don't know. Is stabbing someone considered acupuncture?

:crazy:

Can't believe I responded to this "poll". I need increase my meds.
:silly:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. LMFAO!!!!!

Ok, you actually made me laugh there.

[helderheid]

90. ROFL!!

[Jersey Devil]

41. This poll is invalid

Of course rape is violence and not sex.

A poll like this asks people with healty minds to think like someone who is mentally unbalanced. You might as well ask if John Wayne Gacy was right to eat human bodies.

[porphyrian]

42. I reject the premise of this poll.

While rape is not the same as sex, it definitely has elements of sex. Your poll seems more a tool to promote the bullshit oversimplified binary held by so many here rather than to honestly address, discuss and hopefully solve the serious and much more complicated problem of rape.

[bloom]

44. YOU wrote on another thread, " Sometimes rape is about the sex."

You may have used the qualifier "sometimes" - but you have been one of the main people who have been insisting on this definition.


You also wrote:

"Call it sex, coitus, fucking, whatever, sometimes that's why people rape. It isn't just an act of violence."

[porphyrian]

48. Yes, sometimes rape is about the sex.

That isn't the same as saying rape is the same as sex, or that rape is only sex. I'm sorry if my English slang is too cryptic for you to understand.

YOU are the one who doesn't get it.

[KitchenWitch]

65. Welcome to my ignore list!

[jukes]

230. KW

please don't ignore this person. his agitation needs to be monitored.

[Name removed]

238. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jukes]

245. thought i warned you

or were you too wrapped up in yourself to listen?

this forum is swarming w/disruptive people. i like to watch.

[porphyrian]

246. Well, now you're boring me.

Why don't you go play in the street or something?

[jukes]

254. because this is

SO much more fun.

i HAVE played in the street, many times. and i always win.

[porphyrian]

256. Yeah, whatever. - n/t

[jukes]

229. porphyrian

i'm very concerned about your issues.
and your concept of sex.
not to mention your reasons for joining this forum.

[porphyrian]

237. I'm sure you are, and I don't give a shit.

I've got nothing to hide from you.

[jukes]

247. well

then we're both satisfied....

[porphyrian]

248. You don't get to speak for me. - n/t

[jukes]

253. i was "mirroring"

you SEEM happy w/ these exchanges, especially when you convince yourself you've "won"

[porphyrian]

257. You shouldn't speculate as to my motives.

It makes you look stupid.

[jukes]

259. perhaps it pleases you to think so

you seem to have a need for self-actualization that way.

and speculation is my game, especially when motivation is suspect.

be seeing you!

[porphyrian]

260. Yeah, keep stabbing.

A monkey at a typewriter will duplicate the Bible if given long enough, too.

[jukes]

264. your ripostes

constantly miss the mark. you shoud switch to the sabre, an epee is too delicate for you.

[porphyrian]

265. Do you want the last word? Is that it?

You can have it if it's important to you.

[jukes]

268. not really

i've stated my priorities before; perhaps you were too busy listening to yourself?

[Maru Kitteh]

263. So are you a sick rape fetishist? Is that right? .

Rape is NEVER - EVER - EVER "about the sex". :puke: Anyone who thinks it is should voluntarily have themselves locked up for the good of decent society. Anyone who thinks rape is "about the sex" needs real therapy, serious minimum security no day pass kind of therapy.

[porphyrian]

267. That's the most ridiculous thing I've read today.

BY DEFINITION rape is a sexual act. If you want to make up your own definitions to words, go ahead. However, don't expect other people to conform to your made up language.

[Nikia]

43. For the rapist, it might be

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=341x6994#7005 My response in the Theory of Rape thread.
It depends on the rapist, but in someways these type of rapists who believe rape=sex are most dangerous because they don't believe what they do is wrong.
Sadly, I think that there are many immature who are like this. Sadly, many more mature men do not tell them they are wrong when they brag or fantasize about their "exploits".

[helderheid]

45. This is an amazing poll. just WOW.

[onenote]

46. define rape and define sex, then I'll answer the poll

Otherwise its a really foolish poll.


onenote

[bloom]

49. I think people have their ideas about this

at least quite a few people have been able to answer it. You can go by whatever definition you want to go by.

[onenote]

143. self delete

[Jigarotta]

50. sex is between two consenters.

rape is a violent crime.

just because gonads are involved, doesn't make it 'sex'.

[dysfunctional press]

54. is masturbation sex?

only one consenter involved there.

[Jigarotta]

58. some men masturbate in women, yes. nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

126. Depends on how many people there are in your head :)

[ourbluenation]

51. Sexual assault advocate here...rape is an act of violence...

not sex.

[Solly Mack]

83. Agree

Sex is the weapon used - rape is an act of violence

[Jigarotta]

52. a bit concerned that

so many males in this poll at this time consider rape to be sex.

so if, as a male, you are raped, you are having 'sex'? no matter now brutal?

huh?




Huh?
or is it just the mentality of the raper and not the recipient of the assault?

geeeeeeze.

[Dogmudgeon]

57. Do you consider Parkay to be Butter?

--p!

[Simeon Salus]

59. Do you consider maliciously serving poison to be feeding someone?

Incredibly simple-minded poll question (as phrased).

Rape is an act of DOMINANCE, a massive intrusion on privacy and personal self control of one's own body.

The question begs an emotional sympathetic response to the current public view, these days typically a narrow-minded, anti-rational conservative frame.

Of course rape is an act of violence, but rape is by definition assault using sexual methods. When a man inserts his sexual organ in any human's orifice with or without consent, it's sex, no matter how violent or unwanted the insertion.

If an act might make a woman pregnant, that's pretty much the definition of the primary type of sexual act among humans.

A less silly question might be: "Do you consider rape to be primarily a violent act or primarily a sexual act?" Evokes the answer sought without insulting the reader.
(on edit, corrected "...a violent..." instead of "...an violent..."

[KitchenWitch]

68. This poll (OP Pardon my being so bold) was inspired by

many simple minded responses to some of the rape threads that made the exact assertion that rape=sex.

[greyl]

158. Inspired by? I can't find a trace of inspiration.

I also can't find anyone who has flatly said "Rape=Sex", and if I do, I would tell them that their opinion is an indefensible one. Answers to this terribly unscientific and poorly structured poll do not count.

Imo, this poll is based on an emotionally charged strawman in order to give the appearance of majority support for someone's incorrect opinion that "Rape has nothing to do with sex", while supposedly exposing the presence of "evil-minded male sociopaths".
Sorry, but this poll is worse than most MSNBC polls.

[bloom]

188. Unfortunately

In our culture - many young men are taught to believe the rape myths. Some may be sociopaths and some are not. Not everyone acts on the myths. But that doesn't mean that the myths don't cloud some people's viewpoints.

And as you are aware - this poll was inspired by someone posting that, "most of the rest of the world likes to use the ACTUAL definitions." - as if he were in the majority - when clearly - at least here - he is not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=964302#973300

I admit to thinking that our culture should be less accepting of rape. I don't think that's unreasonable.


Someone accumulated a lot of statistics and such:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Many convicted rapists contend that they have done nothing wrong (e.g., Scully 1990, Sussman and Bordwell 1981). Scully and Marolla (1984, see also Scully, 1990), for example, interviewed 114 convicted rapists. Thirty two (28%) denied any wrong doing and another forty seven (41%) justified their rape by blaming the victim in one or more of five ways: (1) They portrayed the woman as a seductress; (2) They interpreted the woman's ``no'' as ``yes''; (3) They presented the victim as having actually enjoyed the experience; (4) They described the victim as not a nice girl; (5) They denied that their sexual acts were serious (e.g., pulling the knife was wrong, but the forced sex was not). Sussman and Bordwell (1981) report very similar findings based on taped interviews with convicted rapists from several states.

Many studies of ``rape myths,'' attitudes towards rape, and justifications of violence against women show that many ``normal'' males hold similar views. Depending upon the myth, acceptance among general sample males can range from 20% to 60% (see, for example: Burt 1978; Feild, 1978; Goodchilds and Zellman, 1979; Ageton, 1983; Mosher, 1971)."

http://wwwcj.mnstate.edu/classes/CJ400/Monograph/Theory.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[bloom]

190. And another thing

This kind of statement is all over the place.

"the vast majority of date rape is about sex"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=964302#969907

or

"date rape" is generally about sex. at least from the male's point of view."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=964302#967742

or

"for a lot of adolescent males, whose hormones are on overdrive- all that consumes them is thoughts of sex (something about nature, and the drive to procreate and all...) -and yes... to them it's ALL about "getting some"...don't kid yourself."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=964302#967742



You've been on those threads. You've seen it. You've participated in it. His idea is that he "consider(s) Rape to be Sex"

He/you may not be saying all rape is sex - but some are certainly saying that some of it is.

And the above ideas are about promoting rape myths and attempting to trivialize rape. That is how I see it.

[Maru Kitteh]

266. Wow, that is truly disgusting. I'm checking back out of here for a while

Can't take it. I'll go off on the mother of all caustic feel the burn through your monitor postal style rants of all time and get myself booted. I can't BELIEVE that anybody here would defend the heinous crime of rape as a case of the teen roids. You sick fuckers (you know who you are) should be ashamed of yourself and get to a GOD DAMNED THERAPIST because you DON'T deserve to be wasting precious carbon water and life on this planet. I'm just going to stop there, before I get UGLY.

[treestar]

69. It's an open question for the facts in the case in question!

It's sex, says he, it's rape, says she. Then the jury decides. No one said they considered rape to be sex, just that they considered that in the case at hand it was sex rather than rape. Or they decide it is rape.

The very question is trying to pretend there is never any issue, any open question. The accusation is made, it's rape. Not true. It might have been. It might have been sex.

Why can't a person question a rape accusation without being accused of somehow approving of rape or claiming it never exists?

It depends on the case. But not every accusation is true! Why is that hard to see?

[bloom]

75. This is not about

rape accusations - it's about what people think of rape. Do you think of rape as sex or not. That is all.


I think there are fundamental differences in seeing rape as sex and seeing rape NOT as sex.

[Cats Against Frist]

70. 5039 reasons why rape is inextricably intertwined with sex

ATTENTION: THIS IS A GRAPHIC LINK -- if you do not want to be offended by rape fantasy, please do not click on it.

http://english.literotica.com/stories/stories_by_category.php?category=13&page=1

I swear, this has to be the most ridiculous argument that I've ever seen at DU. Rape is complex and is sometimes about power and violence, sometimes about sex, and sometimes about both. Of course I don't think that a rape victim had sex with her accuser in the sense that two people had sex. There is some complex semantic bullshit going on here that I think is just being used to obfuscate the contention that "rape is ONLY violence," which lost that argument to a NUMBER of astute posters, long ago.

[jukes]

234. rape "fantasy"

and rape are NOT the same thing. the 2nd causes suffering.

[Cats Against Frist]

258. Well, since I didn't say they were the same thing, I guess your post is

pointless.

[jukes]

262. you'd like to think so

your post was supposed to be "evidenciary" of a connection between rape and sex. since fantasy is not an act, it fails the test. fantasy isn't an act of brutality, it's just a conceptualization.

it's tedious to spell out all your misconceptions, but i really don't mind.

[JanMichael]

72. Those that answered #1 are pure filth.

:puke:

I've about had it.

[AllieB]

74. Revolting.

How these people can call themselves progressives or profess to be liberals is beyond me.

:puke:

[MissB]

76. I prefer to think that most of them

are just messing with the poll.

[northzax]

77. ok, I guess I'm filthy

but perhaps you can offer a definition of what you consider a penis entering a vagina to be?

sex is completely neutral, it's neither good nor bad, the context is what matters. Rape is about violence and control, no doubt, but it is an act of sex. I don't see how it can be defined differently. please explain.

[KitchenWitch]

86. ...

You are one of the good ones...Thank you for that. Thtwudbeme is very lucky.

[jukes]

235. JanMichael

i agree w/ you absolutely.

[northzax]

73. a penis in a vagina is, by definition, sex

whether it is consensual or not.


or perhaps there's another definition of Sex I didn't learn in Health Class? Can someone please explain why a penis in a vaginia is NOT sex?

[bloom]

79. I think they do need to update what people are taught in Health Class

It would be good to tell people that a forced penis is rape and is not sex. A lot of people don't seem to get it.

It seems that too many people think they are having sex when they are raping someone.

And there were people around here trying to make that argument.


I don't know where they are getting their education - but something needs to change:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=964818&mesg_id=964818

[northzax]

80. as I've said, sex is neutral

it's a physical act. the context is what's important.

Say, for arguement's sake, that you like being spanked. And I spank you. the fact that it's consensual, doesn't mean that I'm not spanking you, right? it means that it's not assault. One is, while perhaps a bit disturbed, an act of violence, the other is an act of violence and a crime. See the difference?

[bloom]

81. people don't go around

bragging that they "spanked" someone when they really violently "spanked" someone.

So there is a lot of context. And part of the context is that too many young men, esp. seem to think that it's ok to rape people - and they are calling it sex - they are "having sex" with people. And they are wrong. They are rapists in denial. Calling it sex allows them some measure of "plausible deniability" or something.


http://www.rwu.edu/Campus+Life/Student+Services/Counseling+Center/Rape+Myths+and+Facts.htm

[JanMichael]

104. How about a beer bottle? Or perhaps a toilet plunger?

Or maybe a baseball bat? Or how about my fist up your ass?

Sex or violence? If you think that's "sex" then perhaps you need a new dictionary.

It's violence, sick fucking violence. Or do you think it's still "sex" now?

Of course this is purely hypothetical:-)

[northzax]

110. does your penis resemble a beer bottle?

or a baseball bat? or a fist? or a penguin? If so, then I guess that's rape.

but since my definition of Sex was a penis inside a vagina I think it still stands. I linked the words to their definitions, since, purely hypothetically, you seem to have problems with the definitions of them.

[JanMichael]

117. You missed my point.

That's ok though. Stick with the semantics. How about looking then at "Consensual" v. "Forced" sex?

Does that change the meaning of the dick in the pussie for you? Or the bat or the fist or the plunger?

Is that simple enough?

This is some offensive crap going on here at DU.

Subject after subject about a horrible act that hurts so many people yet almost defended here.

Unbelievable.

[northzax]

119. I just counted

I have written 17 times in the past 45 minutes that unless both parties consent to sex, it is rape. But the fact that one person doesn't consent, doesn't mean that it is magically no longer sex. it's still sex, it's just also rape.

So I'll make it very clear for you. Sex is Sex. If one party does not consent to sex, it is RAPE and a crime. I think most people are smart enough to tell the difference there. Maybe they aren't.

If I stick my penis into another human being, I am having sex with them. If they don't consent, I am also raping them.

Let me pose a question to you then. If I am raped by a man, anally, can I say that I have never had anal sex? if a virgin is raped, is she still a virgin? remember, the definition of a virgin is someone who has never had sexual intercourse. By very definition, doesn't that mean that rape is sex?

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[northzax]

186. well, there's a reason why

types of sex have adjective prefixes, 'oral' 'anal' and other things that are best discussed behind closed doors. Still sexual acts, but the word 'sex' connotes penile-vaginal sex, primarily, if it isn't modified.

Is oral sex sex? I guess that depends on what your definition of 'is' is, doesn't it? and did you get the Tux from Mondo's shop? :)

[jukes]

232. Northsax

how about
a penis in a rectum?
a penis in a mouth?
a vagina rubbed against another vagina?

are these not sex?


i HOPE the OP was trying to point out that rape is motivated by rage, dominance, and brutality rather than sexual gratification.

in that regard, rape is not "sex", it's aggression.

[aikoaiko]

82. Rape is sex, rape is violence, rape is a violent sex act

I think all these discussion about rape and sex is important but sadly we seem to get no where.

Historically, say prior to the 1950's most people and cultures considered rape to be a sex problem and treated it as such. Husbands couldn't rape their wives. Raping a daughter meant you couldn't get her married off well. And if a wife got raped, the husband often treated he like she committed adultry. If a good upstanding man rapes a woman, she was often blamed for seducing him or other crap.

Feminists did a good job redefining rape as an act or violence and power and the short hand version of that campaign was that "rape is not about sex, but about violence". It was because of this perspective that a lot of good legal and cultural changes happened. But I don't think many of them would say that sex wasn't involved at all in rape.

Today, most modern researchers and theorists seem to including the sexual nature of rape in understanding rape as it is different than other violent acts. This is not to say that they want to go back to the rape is only a sex act way of thinking, but clearly denying the sexual nature of rape is a hinderance to understanding it and preventing it.

thats my two cents.

[TankLV]

84. Hooo boy - this is sure a guided missile.

Rape is assault.

Rape is about power, hurt, pain, degradation, crime - but it does also involve S.E.X.

Otherwise it would be just the CRIME of assault, or kidnapping, or whatever else happened.

Is is just about sex? No.

Can sex be at the start of it? Definitely.

But the minute the other partner says "NO" it becomes rape and assault.

It's really that simple.

I can't ever imagine how it would be to force yourself on someone. Never.

The biggest "turn-on" would be that the other person wants to express their love to you, or finds you desirable. If the other person doesn't desire you, what's the point?

[Imagevision]

85. Rape isn't sex - rape is something you should get your head blown off for!

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[helderheid]

89. NO!!! It uses sex but IT ISN'T sex. Good GOD people.

[mondo joe]

91. Other: Sex is a component of rape.

I don't fully appreciate the arguments about what rape is "about" as opposed to what it "is".

[ScreamingMeemie]

92. Rape is Sex, but it is not love. It is a sexual act, not enjoyed nor

wanted. It is perpetrated by Sex Offenders.

[helderheid]

94. There can be loveless sex without it being rape. Rape is not sex.

[ScreamingMeemie]

96. Rape is Sex.

[helderheid]

98. Sex is involved in rape. RAPE IS NOT SEX.

[ScreamingMeemie]

99. Rape is Sex.

Edited to add: goodnight, I'm hopefully off to perhaps make love, which is also sex.

[helderheid]

100. Goodnight MrsGrumpy. I disagree with you - passionately.

[ScreamingMeemie]

101. and I you...

As I edited above, I am off to hopefully participate in another, kinder gentler version of sex.

[helderheid]

102. Enjoy! :)

[northzax]

112. I'm afraid I don't understand this

you say sex is involved in rape, but that rape isn't sex? isn't that kind of like saying that running is a part of playing soccer, but that if you're playing soccer while moving quickly, you aren't running?

[helderheid]

114. It's like saying drowning isn't swimming but both involve water.

[northzax]

120. interesting take

I hadn't thought of that angle. I'll have to ponder.

[helderheid]

141. :) Thank you for considering it.

[mondo joe]

95. I wish I could remember who said "Saying rape isn't about sex is like

saying robbing banks isn't about money."

[ScreamingMeemie]

97. I can't believe people (myself even) are arguing about something so clear

Sigh...It's bedtime.

[bloom]

123. "to say rape is an exchange is like saying murder is an exchange"

I thought that was appropriate.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=957110&mesg_id=967625

[dysfunctional press]

147. robbing banks is about violence and power over bank tellers-

everyone knows that.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JanMichael]

105. Thank you. It's getting out of hand.

:-)

[Lochloosa]

107. I just don't get it. Why do we have to see all these threads on rape?

No one likes it, and if they do then they fucking don't belong here.

It's wrong.
It's illegal.
It's demeaning to women.
It's demeaning to men.
I can't even imagine what it is like for women that have been raped to have to read some of the shit written here.

LOCK IT!

[marions ghost]

115. ???

why so fussy? Just don't read threads on rape. Others are reading them.

[bloom]

106. Actually - I think that we are getting a lot of information

For instance - with 118 votes

we have

11 votes men Yes

9 votes women Yes

34 votes men NO

64 votes women NO


So we can see that quite a few more women than men say that Rape is not Sex but just a few more men then women say that Rape is Sex.

And quite a few more people say that Rape is not Sex than say that Rape is Sex. Plus lots of comments.

---

But maybe you just don't like the results.

[Lochloosa]

108. You know Bloom, I don't even know how to respond to that.

Rape is rape. Justify it anyway you want. I really don't give a fuck what anyone else says.


On Edit: You can have two consenting adults that "play rape". Great, go for it. If that is your thing. I happen to like ropes. But, you know, she said YES.

[bloom]

111. I'm not the one

justifying rape.

I mostly started this thread because of the people who were so sure that they were in the majority in their thinking that Rape is Sex.

(There is an ignore thread feature if you don't want to see these threads, however.)

[Lochloosa]

113. I have never used my ignore before and will not start now.

I would think it has been established that the vast majority of people understand that rape is an act of violence not sex.

[northzax]

116. then feel free to go away from the threads

it's a big board. :) It hasn't been explained to me why it isn't, in fact, BOTH. Simply because people don't want it to be. It meets the technical definition of sex (penile penetration of the vagina) therefore it is sex. QED.

[Lochloosa]

121. If you want to consider "penile penetration of the vagina" as sex

then have at it. My wife and I consider it "making love".

[northzax]

122. making love isn't sex?

wow, you learn something new everyday. I guess the horizontal rhumba, the beast with two backs, and all the other euphamisms every applied aren't sex either?

wowza.

[Blue_In_AK]

109. Power and control...

...not sex.

[jzodda]

118. Rape is a violation

Sex is fun and consensual by my definition. Rape is a violation-they even use the term in non sexual activities. People who get ripped off sometimes refer to it as getting "raped" and I have heard other non sexual ones as well. So it's not sex as far as I'm concerned. Its a violation pure and simple, an unwanted and unmitigated attack

[Synnical]

128. 22 people think rape is sex?

I think I'm going to vomit.

[file83]

195. That's because people have different definitions of what "sex" is.

Many people equate "sex" with something postitive and romantic.
Others see "sex" from a biological/legal perspective having nothing to do with romance, especially when it's in the context of "rape".

So should it really be a shocker if some people answer "yes" when in fact it is the "sexual" component of rape that distinguishes rape from all other forms of physical violence?

[Montagnard]

131. Sex is love

Rape is not love...it is bestial and that is not what the common understanding of sex is..rape is a depravity of brute force, the taking of liberty and freedom.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

137. sex is sex...I've had sex with people who didn't love me

I could even give you the date

[Montagnard]

139. I would venture that it was not force

but love at that moment....love is transitory...force is brutal

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

142. nah...it wasn't force

it was beer

[Montagnard]

146. LMAO

Sorry, that is to damn funny and so damn lame...I have used that excuse myself.

[mondo joe]

145. Sex is definitely not love. Sex is sex.

You've attached or projected other meanings onto it.

[Montagnard]

148. Sex

Adhering to the biological terminology...the act of procreation....I will hazard a guess that the rapist does not have procreation on his mind...he or she has only the need to bend another to their will. However, there are those times when procreation is not involved...then it has to be something else, but it is not force to strip another of the right to say no.

[mondo joe]

150. That is NOT biological terminology.

And plenty of sex is had without procreation in mind.

Sex is sex. Sex is not love.

[Montagnard]

154. Well I guess any device is fine

for some...in my opinion it is not that unemotional.

[mondo joe]

156. Then you should speak for yourself. And you should definitely not

pretend to use biological terminology.

[Montagnard]

159. Why human urge for sex if not for procreation?

Please enlighten me.

[mondo joe]

161. Now you're confusing yourself even further.

You previously said rape isn't sex because the rapist isn't THINKING about procreating.

But MANY sexual partners aren't thinking about procreating and in fact are trying to NOT procreate. Are they NOT having sex?

Furthermore, sometimes rape DOES result in procreation - does that mean it WAS sex?

And in NONE of these cases is sex love, which was your initial erroneous thesis.

[Montagnard]

167. Oh, a lover of the syllogism.

A philosophy major...I would recommend reading "The Selfish Gene." Then we can talk.

[mondo joe]

184. No, a lover of accuracy. And don't degrade Richard Dawkins by briinging

him into your absurdities.

[dysfunctional press]

149. spoken like a true virgin.

sheesh.
sex is NOT love.
it is a physical act that is in itself neither good nor bad, and it in no way implies nor requires mutual consent.

[Montagnard]

152. Love of humanity

Love of my fellow man or woman...so as not to demean, debase or abridge their freedom. Physical act? An act that has consequence...Psychic and physical. You are confusing love...for attraction, not a deep feeling for others.

[dysfunctional press]

155. you are confusing love with sex.

they are seperate and independent.

[Montagnard]

157. just like relieving one's bowels....

I am of the opinion that it is more personal than that...of course there is always mono....

[dysfunctional press]

160. you apparently have much different sex than i...

or different bowel movements.

i don't find the two experiences all that similar, except perhaps by proximity.

[Montagnard]

165. You are the one who divorced it from emotion

the human has evolved to where sex has emotion. Have we not?

[dysfunctional press]

169. that depends- have we evolved beyond hormones?

or do they still course through our systems at different levels at different times?

have we evolved past being animals? (in case you're confused- the answer is NO)

sex does not require an emotional involvement- it is a physical act.

the puritans are apparently still fucking with some people's heads.

[Montagnard]

172. So if it is rutting time

then chop a notch in the headboard?

[dysfunctional press]

176. if that's how you and your partner handle your sex lives-

more power to you. :hi:

[bloom]

192. From what you have been writing

it difficult to believe that you have a partner - or that you have ever had one.


You wrote:

"sex does not require an emotional involvement- it is a physical act.

the puritans are apparently still fucking with some people's heads."


While sex does not require emotional involvement - most people know that sex with emotional involvement is far superior to sex without. This doesn't come from the puritans. It comes from experience.


Of course it probably doesn't hurt to be taught to expect that (emotional involvement) as opposed to being taught to expect nothing.

[dysfunctional press]

206. i am fully aware of the emotions surrounding a normal sex life-

and mine is fantastic.

but- the hard truth is- sex does not REQUIRE emotional involvement- it is BY DEFINITION a purely physical act.

why is that so hard for so many people to understand?
are that many people really that feeble-minded...?

but then again- this IS the country that allowed bush the keys to the white house- twice.

[bloom]

207. You're the one

who doesn't seem to understand what is clear to so many of us.

So maybe you need to look in the mirror instead of insulting everybody else.

[dysfunctional press]

210. opinions don't do much to sway me-

i'm more into the facts.

but you're free to believe whatever you need to make yourself feel good...:hi:

that's what makes it such a neat country.

[bloom]

212. looking at this poll - I would say that it is a fact

that more people around here say that rape is NOT sex (as opposed to saying that rape IS sex) by a margin of 84% to 16% - with 196 votes - and that margin has been consistent since the poll started.

:hi:

[dysfunctional press]

214. again- opinions do not make facts.

if it did, ronald raygun would be one of our best presidents, and the christian god would be real.

but if wrapping yourself in other people's opinions makes you feel all warm and fuzzy- go for it.

it won't change the FACT that sex is by definition a necessary component of rape.

[jukes]

249. bloom

don't fall into his game. he's trying to bait you. he has nothing to contribute.

[mmonk]

132. Nope

[Neil Lisst]

136. Another thread that should be entitled: NO! USE MY WORDS!!

I call them the Vocabu-haters, word police enforcing their version of every critical term.

[jukes]

251. so, Neil Lisst

YOU get to label the posts? fascinating...

[Fleshdancer]

140. If I were a man, I would be insulted at the idea that rape = sex

To have the minority of monsters dictate what sexuality is for the majority of us who are capable of respecting their lovers is insane. So my question for you is this...man or woman, could you imagine raping another person? Take a gruesome minute and imagine this crazy hypothetical situation...imagine their cries and the struggle and the mixture of fear and disgust in their eyes when they look at you. Is this sex?

I actually discuss this idea with my husband who was disgusted at the concept that rape could equal sex and the look in his eyes told me he was insulted as well. My husband, like most men, has been drunk and horny and on a date or in a situation where a pretty woman was around. He never thought that because he was horny and because she had a vagina that he was somehow entitled. Not once...even if she were labeled a "slut" by society. According to him (and I honestly think MOST men think this) sex is when adults mutually agree to engage in sexual activity. I honestly believe most men believe this too.

[dysfunctional press]

153. sex and sexuality are two different things

sex is simply a physical act- it doesn't have anything to do with mutual consent.

btw- according to polls most men also believe that ronald reagan was a good president....that doesn't make it so.

[Fleshdancer]

163. Let's explore sex as a physical act regardless of mutual consent:

My gynecologist is in my vagina once a year...is she having sex with me? After all, it's a physical act and it involves my vagina. My guess is that no one here would assume that a pap smear was sex, right? So let's follow this "it's sex because it's a physical act" logic:

Pap smear: physical act inside my vagina WITH my consent. Not sex.
Rape: physical act inside my vagina WITHOUT my consent. Sex? Hell no.

Physical acts involving genitalia doesn't automatically equal sex.

Let's face it...some people consider rape to be sex because of the penis. If the penis is in something or someone, then some people will consider it sex regardless of any other factors involved. This, in my opinion, is insane.

[dysfunctional press]

168. if your gynecologist were a male-

who got sexual gratification from performing pap smears- then yes, to him it would be sex.

if a man who gets his sexual gratification by violating and demeaning women commits a rape- to him it's sex.

"sex" has nothing to do with emotions it's a physical act- if you want to talk about "intimacy" or "making love"- then you can talk about the emotion involved.

the way i see it- if someone is getting sexual gratification- it's sex.

[Fleshdancer]

170. So as long as the rapist thinks it's sex, then it's sex?

So I have no say whether I was involved in an act of sex even though it involved MY vagina? No. Try again.

[dysfunctional press]

174. exactly.

if someone fires a gun and puts a bullet in you- do you get to decide if it was a shooting?

by DEFINITION- rape involves sex.

you can delude yourself about the semantics of it it all you want if that's what it takes to make you feel good about yourself- but it doesn't change the reality.

g'nite...

[bloom]

194. Those are very good points

I think that analogy (gynecologist) makes more sense than a lot of things I've read.


also: "So as long as the rapist thinks it's sex, then it's sex?" - That does seem to be the gist of some arguments. Completely baseless.

[onenote]

144. i love silly semantic games. here's some more

Do you consider statutory rape sex?

Is it sex if its intercourse between an underage male and an underage female?
What if its an underage male and an 18 year old female?

If someone kidnaps a gay man and a straight woman and forces them to attempt to have intercourse against their will, is that rape or sex?

Now back to the question polled:

I consider rape to occur when one person forces another to engage in sexual intercourse against their will.

onenote

[Left Is Write]

151. I already put my answer here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=971727&mesg_id=973355

[pitohui]

162. matters of fact can't be settled by polls

do you vote on the law of gravity?

yes, rape is sex, it is an unfortunate reproductive strategy but one of the most successful historically, supposedly DNA studies tell that genghis khan, raping and looting as he conquered, has passed more of his DNA material to more descendants to any other man in history

rape is not nice, it should never happen, but yes of course it is sex, anything that can result in a man sticking a baby in a woman's body is undeniably a reproductive strategy

do you think it is only sex if it is pleasurable? because that is not science, that is a romance novel

there are entire species where rape is an important reproductive strategy, watch mallard ducks for awhile, it is not pretty, most bird species are NOT physically capable of rape but watch the ducks get it on, this is not the pretty courtship of mockingbird singing to his ladyfriend by moonlight after beating the crap out of all the other mockingbirds, all the other non-mockingbirds, and even tapping a few joggers on the head to show his mettle, with the mallard it's several males at once ganging the female and nearly drowning her and not giving one tiny damn abt impressing her or pleasing her or even keeping her damn head out of the water while they're nailing her

it's still sex and it can still make babies

no matter what the other side says abt how rape doesn't produce babies and it isn't the real thing, they are effin crazy you know and we needn't take nonsense seriously

[bettyellen]

182. in real lif it's not proper usage, ask any mental health pro or cop....

as a society we don't describe acts of rape as sex. (especially not without the all imprtant qualifier forced -which unfortunately is also a debate here)
this hasn't been proper form in many years, much as many would prefer to ignore it and point at websters or take the rapists' POV.
you want to talk about ducks, science, strategies... whatever you are talking- that's theoreticals on reproduction. not the same.
but when we talk about rape, more specific physical terms are to used- sodom,y penetration, etc.... but sex or having sex are not among the acknowledged proper descriptors. if you doubt it, ask around.

[jukes]

243. overly simplistic

again, an unconfined man forcefully enters another man's anus or mouth & ejaculates.

if he was horny he cd find a willing female, or a prostitute.

yet he chooses to use another man.

is this a "reproductive strategy"?

is it for sexual gratification? no, he achieves gratification by sex w/ women.


so what is the motivation? THAT's the crux of this discussion. rapist don't want sex, they want to degrade another person.

[benburch]

171. Rape is most usually a sexualized form of violence.

In the case of a male rapist, the penis often becomes a surrogate for a weapon, and the vagina becomes a surrogate for its wound.

That is pretty much clear.

Many rapists go on to needing a real weapon and a real wound.

But the sexuality, though it is often part of the mental kick of the rapist is not usually the primary reason for the assault.

Now, there MIGHT be some rape where sex was the intended reason, either because of mental incapacity on the part of the rapist, or because of the actions of drugs such as alcohol which so cloud the judgement that the lack of consent is not apparent. Of course, this excuses nothing in the case of the druken/drugged rapist because you were the one who chose to remove your capacity to judge, but the OP really seeks to motive, and that motive would appear to be different in that case.

[Lindacooks]

173. The only difference between being raped and being hit by a bus s, after

you are raped, people ask if you enjoyed it.

[benburch]

175. Ewwwww.

I can't IMAGINE.

[Neil Lisst]

179. I do not consider rape to be sex.

But I do consider rape to have as a necessary component a sexual act.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

181. what the hell does this poll even mean?

sex is a tool of rape .. and rape is a type of assault that involves sex... but i have no idea what your poll actually means...

[bloom]

191. I suppose

that it would seem less extreme if the word "primarily" were added.

As in Do you consider Rape primarily to be about Sex? (But as you can see from many of the responses - many do not see rape as sex. period. primarily or not).


In the seventies - I think it was - there was a push to get people to realize that rape was primarily about violence, power and domination and to try to get people to stop thinking of rape as just another form of sex. That is what this is about.

As NMSA pointed out if you were to "Walk up to a cop, a psychologist, a prison psychiatrist and a superior court judge and ask them if rape is sex"

- they would say NO. This is because this has become the standard way of looking at it.

Say you were a prosecutor who was trying a rape case. You would want people on the jury who thought that rape was violence - not that rape was sex.

To say that rape is sex is to imply that it is not violent - not criminal - just someone whose "hormones are on overdrive" (as some here have tried to argue), IOW - normal . It is not normal - and experts generally think that it isn't even about the sex at all. (When you have the BTK killers who ejaculates on his victims - is that sex? I don't think so. Just because someone is engaged in something that resembles what people think of as sex - does not make it "sex" - I think that is the idea).

This is about living in a rape culture and educating people - because these things are learned - about what is what. In cultures where there is little or no rape - or at least less rape - men and women are more equal in status and men are not taught that rape is ok (mostly by each other - but other things as well) - whether it is date rape or any other rape.

This partly comes up with the Duke case - when you have people who might blow off that Sports teams sexually assault women and get away with it. Someone even tried to argue that if a case was not prosecuted it wasn't rape.

It's a problem when we have so many people in this country who are in denial about this.

[file83]

196. The poll is more a test of peoples definitions of "sex" than anything else

and so is completely pointless.

[terrya]

183. Rape is an act of violence. It has nothing to do with sex.

[mondo joe]

185. If that were true, there'd be no such thing as rape - just assault.

Rape is a forced sexual act. Without force it's not rape, and without sex it's not rape.

[file83]

198. That's only true if you define "sex" as only an act of love/romance.

If you look at the broader definition of "sex" to include both the positive and negative aspects of human behavior, then the answer is "rape has a violent sexual component".

This poll is treating a complex question as a TRUE/FALSE one.

That's like having a poll that says:

YES or NO, are humans wonderful creatures?

YES, humans are wonderful creatures!
NO, humans are horrible violent creatures!

What's the point of asking such a meaningless and pre-framed question?

[bloom]

202. If you've read the responses

you would see that many people have quite a different take on the issue and see it basically one way or the other.

I realize that quite a few wish to see rape as sex partly because of how rape is defined - and this question does get more into how they think of rape on an emotional level - and if they think of it as defined by the rapist or as defined by the victim. Victims would rarely say that rape is sex. Rapists would. Other people might not know what to think.

Also - I happen to know of a prosecutor who asked this exact question to a jury to see how people would answer - so it's good to know how you would answer it and why.

[eyesroll]

189. It depends if we're talking semantically or philisophically.

If the rape is penis-in-vagina, and we're looking at the dictionary, then sort-of. There is sex going on during that rape. (Not all rapes.) It's not the entire part of the rape, so I won't answer "yes," but your poll doesn't offer any room for nuance.

The dictionary defines "sex" as "sexual intercourse" or "coitus" and then "sexual intercourse"/"coitus" is defined, in general terms, as the insertion of a penis into a vagina. Yes, this is an extremely limiting, heterocentric definition, but it's also connotatively neutral, and it doesn't differentiate between whether the sex act is violent, loving, or somewhere in between. There isn't much to argue with here -- if we're talking plain, old, ordinary semantics, sex is often a PART of rape.

Philosophically speaking: Rape is not (usually) about sex, although something that moves from consentual to non-consentual (i.e. a date rape that progresses from consentual making out) can start off as a sex act and move into something else. But in the case of other rapes, it's about power and violence and aggression...and sometimes, yes, about sex, for the rapist.

I suppose a better way of putting it may be....rape is an act of violence. The means by which this violence is purpetrated is through a sex act.

Dunno.

[jsamuel]

197. what I think is the most telling is that many men are chosing not to parti

cipate in this poll when compared to women (70men-90women)

[file83]

200. It's not too lop-sided. But there is a leaning.

[Beelzebud]

203. Has DU been overrun by pod people?

First I get told I'm not a progressive because I eat meat, and now we have this stupid poll...

Were you all replaced by pod people while I was asleep last night?

[porphyrian]

208. Don't be silly. Now, wouldn't you like to take a nap? - n/t

[LostinVA]

223. Have you read the rape threads???

People on their saying date rape isn't rape, rape is just another part of sex, etc.

[Spinoza]

204. Of course, , rape is a violent SEXUAL

act. Certainly, a woman (or man) who is raped EXPERIENCES it as an act of violence, not sex. But the fact that rape, by definition, has to do with violence does not mean it has nothing to do with sex, any more than the fact that armed robbery has something do with violence does not mean it has nothing to do with greed. Evil men may use violence to get SEX, just as they use violence to get other things that they want.

Think about it. Men often want to have sex with women who do not want to have sex with them. Some men use violence, force or the threat of force, to get what they want, indifferent to the suffering they cause. They use violence as a tactic to acquire material goods, or for revenge, anger, fun, sadism, etc. It would be an extraordinary fact, contradicting everything else we know about people, if some men DIDN'T use violence to get SEX.

A man asks a woman to have sex. She says "yes" and he engages in coitus with her. A man asks a woman to have sex. She says "no" and he engages, by force, in the identical sexual act. He rapes her. To argue that the first instance is sex and the second instance isn't--is really preposterous.

Certainly, a woman has the right to say "no" at any point during sexual activity, and if the man persists he is a rapist--but should we also believe that his motive has instantaneously changed from wanting SEX to oppressing women thru violence?

Additionally, rapists are overwhelmingly (though not exclusively) young men under the age of 35. It is not a coincidence that the huge majority of male rapists come from precisely that demographic which has the strongest SEXUAL drive.

Finally, coerced copulation is found in many species in the animal kingdom including insects, birds and mammals. Among mammals it occurs fairly frequently in our closest relatives the orangutans, gorillas, and chimpanzees. No one would argue that these "rapes" are NOT an act of SEX. Are homo-sapiens alone among 2 legged mammals incapable of associating SEX with coercion and violence?

Of course, none of the arguments above in any way EXCUSES or CONDONES rape. However, I don't believe the effort to reduce rapes in our society can be helped by willfully ignoring or denying the simple fact that SOME of the motivations for rape are essentially SEXUAL in nature.

[bloom]

209. "a woman has the right to say "no"..."

"at any point during sexual activity, and if the man persists he is a rapist--but should we also believe that his motive has instantaneously changed from wanting SEX to oppressing women thru violence?"

yes.

[Spinoza]

222. Perhaps a syllogism will clarify my major point.

1) SOME men use violence to obtain the things they want.
2) ALL men want SEX. (Not strictly true, but near enough.)

Therefore: SOME men use violence to obtain SEX.

(Yes, I know that, by strict Aristotelian standards, the above is not really a valid syllogism.)

[jukes]

252. intentionally

missing the point.

see my post #243.

[Spinoza]

272. Gee, did I miss your point?

Excuuuuuse me!

From your post 243:
"again, an unconfined man forcefully enters another man's anus or mouth & ejaculates.
if he was horny he cd find a willing female, or a prostitute."

Not necessarily, what if he was a homosexual and can only find sexual gratification with men? How do you know for certain he did NOT experience sexual gratification and that was not his primary motive? You talk as if you KNOW something that you can't possibly know for sure without far more knowlege about the perpetror. Human motivations are not as simple as you make them out to be.

"so what is the motivation? THAT's the crux of this discussion. rapist don't want sex, they want to degrade another person."

Simply your assertion. The fact is SOME men only want to degrade other people, SOME men predominantly want sex and are willing to take it by force, and SOME men share a combination of the two attitudes.

For example, in respect to date rape here is a not uncommon scenario: A man goes on a date with a woman determined to f---k her whether she wants to or not. If she wants to, its consensual sex. If she doesn't, he rapes her. I agree that, by definition, a rape is degrading but in this context his primary motivation is sex, not degradation. There would be no degradation, and there would be sex, had she agreed. Because she did not agree he rapes her, but only because he wants sex and is willing to use force if that is the only way to get what he wants. Degradation of the woman may not be his motivation at all (sex is) even though she WILL certainly be degraded by his act.

Bad men use force to obtain desired things. This can include money, autos or sex. The desire to degrade women may or may not be present. You can't generalize. People are not one-dimensional robots. Motivations, especially in respect to sex, are often more complex than the simple, totally unproven mantra: 'rape is ONLY motivated by the desire to degrade others'.

[BoneDaddy]

205. stupid poll

and the currently 18 who say they are male and think rape is sex, I totally and utterly contest. My guess is that the 18 who say that rape is sex are either 1. joking very badly 2. Freepers looking to disrupt 3. People who are trying to make men look bad.

[El Fuego]

211. You are implying a narrow definition of "sex" in your poll

Basically a definition of "sex" having a pleasurable connotation. The term "sex" can have a variety of meanings depending on the context. If you are talking about rape, you are using the word sex in a purely clinical context.

[LostinVA]

224. Bloom's poll is narrow because it's in response to some whacked

out posters saying on some threads that rape is sex as long as one of the people are enjoying themselves, date rape isn't rape but sex, etc.

[noonwitch]

215. I blame ABC/General Hospital for any confusion on the issue

Luke raped Laura, then convinced her it was sex because she had an orgasm. I believe the soapie wording was "I felt your body respond to mine". Women sometimes have orgasms when they are raped-it's a physical response. It doesn't preclude rape.

I think a lot of women in my age range were very confused about this when they were teens and college students for that very reason.

[LostinVA]

225. You are so right! I remember my mom freaking out about that

storyline because of this...

Then, she married him!!!

[DemGirl7]

218. Rape isn't really sex in a way

If you really want to get technical like the fundies, than it is sex. But as I see it, rape isn't really sex, because it is forced upon the person in question.

[Roaming]

219. I guess it depends how you define "sex"

If "sex" is consentual sexual contact, then rape is is not sex. But if you consider sex any type of sexual contact, then rape is sexual. There is sexual activity taking place. Just because one component of rape is violence doesn't mean that's ALL it is. The perverts who rape women are obviously getting some sexual pleasure from it.

[All50inBlue]

221. doesn't

make much sense... OF COURSE rape=sex albeit FORCED/CRIMINAL/ASSAULT SEX.

[deaniac21]

226. You left out the following:

I'm a female and I consider all sex rape.

[hyphenate]

239. Rape is pure violence

and an act of domination by the attacker. It is not sex, it is the behavior of someone with distinct personality disorders and violent tendencies. And someone who rapes has absolutely NO respect for the one they are attacking.

[LynneSin]

240. What kind of dumbass poll is this

The person being raped never asked for the other person to engage in sex. In fact she (and it's usually a she) has probably said several times that "NO" she was not interested in sex.

Rape is Violence. Anyone who thinks it's some form of sex should be raped so they can appreciate the difference between rape and sex

[Vidar]

244. By definition, rape is nonsentual sex. How could it not be sex?

[0007]

250. Rape is not sex any shape way or form

[mondo joe]

261. Please define "Rape".

[0007]

270. I was wrong!

[Batgirl]

255. Maybe I'm missing something

I even read the entire thread, and subsequently dosed myself with the appropriate migraine meds, hoping to figure out the reasons for a cataclysmic flame war. Maybe it would be something good and juicy. But, no. For instance, I don't see where a single person is advocating the idea that the crime of rape is just another element in the vast, wondrous spectrum of human sexual expression. In fact it looks to me like every single person is in basic agreement that rape is a despicable crime. In other words, I got my hopes up and invested a half hour of my life in order to excavate my way through a big semantics disagreement. What a let down.

[Phx_Dem]

269. Ditto

Seems like the entire thread is one misinterpretation after another. Did find a good article though:


Chapter 1: Sociological Analysis of Rape

...

"The literature reviewed below has identified several relevant structures, processes and ideological components. Still, to date, we do not have an adequate theory. Analysis has been paralyzed by a failure to examine carefully the connection between the structure of sexual behavior and gender stratification..... For women, such an analysis raises gender justice issues and recently has been blocked by the facile notion that forcible rape is not a sexual crime and, presumably, that nonviolent forms of sexual aggression are not expressions of sexual desire. This is what the slogan,``rape is violence, not sex'' means."

...


The proposition that rape is not sexual appears to have two intellectual difficulties and one political problem: First, it ignores any perceived qualitative difference between rape and other forms of violence. It seems unexceptionable that rape is widely considered to be qualitatively different than beating, maiming or killing. This is a central point, for example, in Brownmiller's discussion of the origins of rape (1975: 4-5) and in her discussion of rape in war (1975: 24). She argues that is the one offense for which women cannot retaliate ``in kind.'' She seems to be saying that rape evokes stronger emotional reactions than most personal harms and that these reactions are qualitatively different than the reaction to most other personal harms. I accept this. This would not occur were rape considered qualitatively the same as other assaults. Therefore, the position that rape is merely violence must be viewed as unfaithful to the way people think about rape. If rape did not have a sexual meaning, it would not be rape!

Second, and more important, any analysis that ignores the obvious sexual component of rape will not satisfactorily explain rape. Arguing that contempt for women or a desire to dominate women accounts for rape fails. Contempt does not explain why the aggression takes a sexual form. A satisfactory analysis must explain why rape is more contemptuous, more humiliating, or more oppressive than beating, stabbing or shooting. If the foregoing analysis is correct, then rape is contemptuous, humiliating and oppression because it is a sexual assault. It is not ``merely'' another kind of assault. It is qualitatively different - and understood to be so.

It might be argued that rape is just violence that happens to use the penis as a weapon (Brownmiller 1975: 1). Clearly, a penis is not a knife or a gun. In the absence of beating, stabbing or shooting, the physical trauma is less with a penis than with other weapons. This leaves me at a loss to explain the very deep psychic trauma of rape -- unless it is because the special nature of rape includes that it is a sexual violation.

Politically, the position raises problematic and perhaps even dangerous possibilities. Most men, including convicted rapists, view their sexual tactics as non violent (e.g., Scully 1990). Therefore, if rape is not sexual, few men need ever contemplate the possibility that their sexual tactics are deviant. If however, the sexual component is understood to be important, and if it is the unilateral nature of sexual tactics that makes them deviant, then such avoidance is much more difficult.

http://wwwcj.mnstate.edu/classes/CJ400/Monograph/Theory.html

[SmokingJacket]

271. Yeah, as much as force-feeding is "dining" nt

[porphyrian]

273. Some English Definitions to Help Facilitate Communication

sex n.

1.
1. The property or quality by which organisms are classified as female or male on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions.
2. Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, of this classification.
2. Females or males considered as a group.
3. The condition or character of being female or male; the physiological, functional, and psychological differences that distinguish the female and the male. See Usage Note at gender.
4. The sexual urge or instinct as it manifests itself in behavior.
5. Sexual intercourse.
6. The genitals.

tr.v. sexed, sex·ing, sex·es

1. To determine the sex of (an organism).
2. Slang.
1. To arouse sexually. Often used with up.
2. To increase the appeal or attractiveness of. Often used with up.



Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

sex (sks) n.

1. The property or quality by which organisms are classified as female or male on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions.
2. Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, of this classification.
3. Females or males considered as a group.
4. The condition or character of being female or male; the physiological, functional, and psychological differences that distinguish the female and the male.
5. The sexual urge or instinct as it manifests itself in behavior.
6. Sexual intercourse.

Source: The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Main Entry: sex
Pronunciation: 'seks
Function: noun
1 : either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as male or female
2 : the sum of the structural, functional, and behavioral characteristics of living things that are involved in reproduction by two interacting parents and that distinguish males and females
3 a : sexually motivated phenomena or behavior b : SEXUAL INTERCOURSE

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


rape n.

1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.

tr.v. raped, rap·ing, rapes

1. To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on.
2. To seize and carry off by force.
3. To plunder or pillage.

raper n.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

rape (rp)
n.

The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.

v. raped, rap·ing, rapes

To commit rape on.

rapist n.
Source: The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Main Entry: rape
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Forms: raped; rap·ing
Etymology: Latin rapere to seize and take away by force
: to commit rape on —rap·er noun —rap·ist noun

Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Main Entry: rape
Function: noun
: unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception —see also STATUTORY RAPE
NOTE: The common-law crime of rape involved a man having carnal knowledge of a woman not his wife through force and against her will, and required at least slight penetration of the penis into the vagina. While some states maintain essentially this definition of rape, most have broadened its scope esp. in terms of the sex of the persons and the nature of the acts involved. Marital status is usually irrelevant. Moreover, the crime is codified under various names, including first degree sexual assault sexual battery unlawful sexual intercourse, and first degree sexual abuse.

Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Main Entry: rape
Function: noun
1 : sexual intercourse with a woman by a man without her consent and chiefly by force or deception —see STATUTORY RAPE
2 : unlawful sexual intercourse by force or threat other than by a man with a woman

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Main Entry: rape
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Forms: raped; rap·ing
: to commit rape on

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

[Moderator]

274. Locking

This thread has evolved into a flame fest and has run its course.