Something to think about concerning the immigration debate

[proud2BlibKansan]

First, watch the video of Rev. Lowrey at Camp Casey on Saturday:
http://www.truthout.org/easterincrawford.shtml

Now listen to this story. A member of our anti-war group was assaulted Monday at an anti-immigration rally. He was holding a sign asking for the undocumented workers to be treated humanely and not discriminated against. First, some in the crowd erased his sign (it was written on a white board that can be erased). Then they literally dragged an African American man over and said 'here, tell him the aliens are being discriminated against'. Funny thing about that is that guy was there circulating a petition and not part of their group.

When they realized the African American guy wasn't going to do whatever it is they wanted to do to our friend, they began shoving our friend and asking him to leave. An older woman pushed him into a little girl who went into the street and was nearly hit by a car.

Are these the kinds of Americans we need to be siding with on a critical issue? Those who ignore the safety of a child while stifling an Americans right to free speech?

Speakers at the rally suggested standing at the border with guns to keep out the aliens. A conservative Republican who ran for Congress in this area in 2004 (and thankfully lost) was the keynote speaker at their rally. When other speakers mentioned guns and violence, he did NOTHING to quiet them or the crowd.

Is this the kind of politician you want to side with? What kind of a 'leader' allows violent hate speech in his presence and does NOTHING to stop it?

Still don't know where to fall on this issue? Watch Rev. Lowry's video one more time.

[ugarte]

1. The country (and DU) is in an angry f*ing mood these days

Unfortunately the anger is not always well-placed. I see anti-Mexican crap here all the time, which just tells me the Republicans may be down but they're still doing an effective job setting the agenda.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. It upsets me to see that anger against Hispanics here

The Dems are are about reaching out and helping people because they are human beings. The repukes think of themselves and their bank accounts above all.

[ugarte]

4. When things go bad, people look for a scapegoat

So many high-paying jobs are just gone forever, off-shored. So people take out their frustration on immigrants getting minimum wage.

The whole situation just tells you where we are as a country, fighting over crumbs.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Those undocumented workers are not even getting

mimimum wage. A guy here in my city is currently paying $1.00 an hour for laborers.

[Cleita]

22. So whom are you blaming here for breaking the law,

the employer or the immigrant? Who is most guilty of breaking the law here, the employer who knows he's not paying minimum wage or the immigrant who doesn't know that $1 an hour is not minimum wage?

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. The employer is the guilty party

I would never blame a desperate worker for breaking a law he is unaware of.

[Jigarotta]

40. the whole rotting system is the guilty party.

the 1 percenters and their bland leading the bland followers.

There is room for everyone, anywhere.
ill Distribution of wealth and resources is the Party Guilty.

[Cleita]

20. So instead of blaming those who are at fault they prefer to

blame the poorest, most vulnerable people in North America by calling them lawbreakers. Crossing the border incidently is a misdemeanor, not a felony, like running a red light.

To paraphrase Jesus here, "You who have never committed a misdemeanor offense and broken the law, please cast the first stone."

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Yes, I like that

I have already asked many other DUers if they had ever driven above the speed limit, smoked a little pot or done anything else illegal. That 'they are breaking the law!' rhetoric is like comparing them to rapists and murderers. Enough already!!!

[madmom]

3. I wonder why nothing is being said about the people who hire

them, if they would be given jail time not a fine, because they can usually afford it no problem, but make it a felony to hire an undocumented worker and if enough of them went to jail, they would stop hiring them, then the illegals would stop coming over, problem solved. The ones making out are the employers not the workers, they are merely trying to make a living, we would do the same if we were in their position.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Yes the real enemy is the employer who hires

undocumented workers. Yet we have all this racist rhetoric in this debate.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. The employers are white Americans.

The problem the anti-immigrant folks are upset about isn't their employment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. So what is it?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. They're brown and unamerican.

At least that's what it usually boils down too. They're stealing our jerbs, they're unamerican, they've got silly flags, they're spreading dangerous germs, they're spreading dangerous gangs, they speak in a foreign tongue.

I'm not sure which argument I've heard against immigration is the stupidest- that immigrants won't understand how to read a stop sign, or that immigrants have accents that are too think to understand when I'm trying to order food down at the mexican restaurant.

Basically, the "problem" people have with immigrants is that they're foreigners.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Oh the best one I have heard was the guy on CNN

who got mad when the Mexicans moved in across the street from him and wouldn't share recipes with him! So he joined the Minutemen. He also goes around his town and walks up to Hispanic people and asks if they have a green card.

And it all started when they wouldn't give him their recipe for guacomole!

:rofl:

[madmom]

11. excuse me..but when I hear that they are suppressing our wages

because they do low paying jobs "that Americans won't do" I think employment is the issue or at least part of the issue. If employers where made to pay a living wage and arrested for hiring undocumented workers I don't see where there would be a problem. I don't mean $100 an hour or even $50 an hour as some pundits keep saying, but enough to be able to have a roof over your head and food on the table, that's not $5 an hour.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. I hate that expression

We should change it to say that undocumented workers are working for wages that American citizens won't work for.

[madmom]

13. I agree, that's why I put it in ", the reason Americans won't do the jobs

is because they won't work for such low wages, slave labor was made illegal a long time ago, I thought.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Yeah I got that

We agree ( I think ) :)

[madmom]

25. Yep, I think so

:toast:

[Alcibiades]

5. Favoring border enforcement

and enforcement of our workplace laws does not mean one is in bed with these knuckle-dragging morons. I'm pretty darn liberal, but I sometimes find myself agreeing with Pat Buchanan on trade issues. To borrow some old Marxist terminology, using undocumented workers as a reserve army of the proletariat has been one of the means whereby the members of Bush's "ownership society" has kept the wages of American workers stagnant for nearly 30 years. We should do something to alleviate the poverty in Central and South America without necessarily creating a universal human right of citizenship for anyone who wants to come to the United States to better themselves--exactly what, I don't know. But I think that I trust us Democrats to come up with some responsible policy to enforce our borders and the American workplace more than i trust the Republicans to do so.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Great points

Yes, I think the Dems will have a better solution than the pukes.

[Cleita]

28. Another really easy way is to raise the immigration quota from

the south to reflect the number of jobs that would be available to the workers. Then they could work openly under our labor laws for minimum wage or more and with the protection of worker's compensation and OSHA laws. They also could join unions. Once everyone in the labor market is on an even wage scale and fall under current labor laws, I'm sure you will see American employers hiring more Americans than immigrants.

[Alcibiades]

32. A good idea

Of course, a problem is that many of those who are anti-illegal immigration are really anti-immigrant, and won't go for it, but it would be a good Democratic proposal to counter the haters, while actually enforcing our borders.

[Cleita]

34. Your assumption is the reason it hasn't happened since

WWII although our leadership has recognized that this would be the logical fix. They also knew the prejudices that they would encounter among their predominantly white constituency so they never addressed the obvious even through two amnesties.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. While I actually do support more lenient treatment of immigrants,

The fact that some of the opponents of immigration are thugs does not strike me as relevant either way.

If I *did* oppose immigration, then the fact that people I disagreed with about other things and who behaved in ways I disapprove of agreed with me would not, I think dissuade me - it's an ad hominen argument, and hence invalid.

I do admire your friend for having the nerve to go and counter-protest, though.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Did you watch Lowrey's video?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. No, and I'm afraid that for IT reasons I'm not going to.

Why? In what way do you think it would influence me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. He calls for the need to unite our movements

He says the civil rights movement, the immigrant rights movement, the gay rights movement and the peace movement all have the same agenda. He said on Friday night (this is NOT on the video) that if we all united, bush would be gone. Together, we are a majority in America; a BIG majority. Yet, we are divided and the religious right is taking over our churches and the republicans are winning on issues we should be winning.

Our agendas are identical. We are all working for the cause of HUMAN rights and would accomplish so much if we came together in ONE movement.

It is an awesome video. I am sorry you can't see it. Truthout is also a GREAT website.

[Cleita]

31. He's so right about the various right's movements. However, as long

as the evil right can appeal to people's unconscious prejudices, and that's what they do, they will always sway many their way because they know which buttons to push.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. We just have to convince MORE to come over to our side

Speak truth to power and we will get them.

[Cleita]

27. So you don't expose yourself to anything you disagree with

because you think that you might be influenced? I really think the OP just wants everyone to look at all the facts and POVs presented so they can make up their own minds in an informed manner.

This is the reason many of us listen to Limbaugh and watch FOX. Well the unintended humor from fools pretending to have all the answers is one bonus, but also we think we might learn something, even though it hasn't happened yet, with the exception of developing the skills of how to tell when really big and imaginative lies are being told.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

29. Where did you get all that from?

I don't listen to videos over the internet because I'm on a university internet connection; the politics involved are irrelevant. Did you misinterpret/misunderstand/misread what I said?

No-one can possibly look at *all* the facts on anything; I'm quite capable of making up my mind in an informed manner as it is.

As far as I can tell from the summary the OP has given, I agree to at least some extent, although not totally, with the views expressed by this one.

When it comes to exposing myself to things that I disagree with, I'm afraid would point to much of DU as an example of such; I also read the Telegraph and the Economist when I can get it, and lurk FR on a regular basis.

[Cleita]

33. I guess I did misunderstand your post because

you led me to believe that you didn't read or listen to anything that you felt would sway you. So sorry.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

36. No, sorry

The OP appeared to be trying to convince me of something, and while I wasn't going to watch his video I thought it was unfair not to let him "bring it as evidence" just because I don't trust my computer, so I was asking him to summarise it for me. I possibly should have made that clearer.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. I understood and I hope I answered your question

I still think you should try to watch that video. It is powerful stuff.

[DaveJ]

15. Hell yeah the employers are to blame...

But you know when you start blaming rich employers for anything, the Repukes standard combeback is: "a poor man never gave me a job." They are just destroying themselves with their warped attitude and the whole country in the process.

[madmom]

19. nobody is asking them to be poor, just pay a decent wage

[Cleita]

26. I'm on dial-up and have never been able to open one

of Truthout's pod-casts. Could you give a brief summary of what the Rev. Lowry said? Or do you have a link to text?

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Oh that is too bad

Truthout is so awesome!

I wrote a general summary in an above post. But I will be on the lookout for a written transcript and will post it when and if I find it. It was one of the most inspirational speeches I have ever heard.

[NorthernSpy]

37. and in Portland, ME it was the pro- illegal alien side who got violent

Are these the kinds of Americans we need to be siding with on a critical issue? Those who ignore the safety of a child while stifling an Americans right to free speech?

I'd ask you the same question.

[Cleita]

38. There is no pro-illegal alien side that I know of.

There are those of us who recognize that these people are being accused of the problem and put in harms way because of it and that's what we are objecting to. There is a solution, but no one wants to work on it. Blaming the victim is not a solution.

I don't know what happened in your neck of the woods but a link to a news article or something like that would help us to understand.

[NorthernSpy]

39. it was all over the news here

An illegal alien protest in Portland, Maine, turned violent when a protester demanding rights for illegal aliens attacked a man who was protesting against amnesty. Robert Gorman was carrying a sign at yesterday's rally that read "No rights for illegals." He was then surrounded by a group of teenage illegal alien rights supporters.

One of those teens hit Gorman in the head with a metal object. He was rushed to the hospital. Gorman says he's sorry if he offended anyone, but he is still sticking by his beliefs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT GORMAN, ATTACKED AT ILLEGAL RALLY: I mean, if all those illegals can do their speeches, you know, why can't I? You know? Doesn't it say in the Constitution, freedom of speech?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Importantly, Robert Gorman is the son of a Mexican immigrant. Police do have a suspect in the case. The search is under way for that suspect tonight.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/11/ldt.01.html


What's to "understand"? The attacker approached Gorman -- who was holding a sign -- and smashed him in the side of the head with a hard object. And then fled.

Gorman bled all over the place until the ambulance came.

There is a solution, but no one wants to work on it. Blaming the victim is not a solution.

The solution is to start making examples of those employers who hire illegals. Fine 'em, jail 'em, confiscate their property -- anything else we can think of.

Then illegals will deport themselves, what with no one willing to break the law to hire them anymore.

[Cleita]

42. Okay so you have one sour incident in these protests

that have been peaceful nationwide. Immigrants aren't going to stop coming as long as they can improve their lives here. First we need to raise the immigration quotas according to the number of jobs that might be available for them. This makes both the immigrant and the employer work within the law.

Once there is no difference in the wages, benefits and insurance that the employer has to pay for any worker, he most likely will hire more Americans and hire immigrants when he can't find enough Americans to do the jobs. This is especially true during harvests when American workers can't meet the demand and a crop will rot in the fields if it's not picked.

This is a solution that no one will allow themselves to look at because the real reasons Americans object to immigrants lies much deeper in their psyches. The employers like to keep it that way to insure cheap labor. Now that illegally hiring undocumented Mexican labor has a big spotlight shining on it, they are bringing Indian and Pakistani laborers through Canada. A smuggler and his "cargo" were caught entering through Vancouver last week.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. dupe