A Very Rich Man (is he asking to be mugged?)

[the other one]

OK. A very rich man dresses up in his finest clothing, fur coat, expensive jewelry. Then he leaves his palatial estate and goes down to the poorest ghetto so he can take a stroll. Despite the fact that attacking and robbing a person are illegal and wrong, can it be said that the rich man is asking to be attacked and mugged by flaunting his wealth at the wrong time in the wrong place? Not to excuse the actions of his attackers, but in this case the victim should have known better.

[tritsofme]

1. Not any more than a scantily clad woman is "asking" to be raped.

The premise is absurd.

[rfranklin]

2. Yes, but both could be seen as stupid if they think they are tempting...

someone.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. rape has nothing to do with temptation

rape has everythign to do with power and subjugation of women

[genie_weenie]

18. Wait a minute.

Rape has everything to do with power and subjugation of women. And you don't think this is tempting to some men? To show how big and tough they are? To dominate another person?

And I was waiting for this argument to surface and for the attacks on it as absurb...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. i think the temptation is not increased or decreased by the length of the

skirt.

[greyl]

47. It's not that black and white, imo.

For just one obvious reason, you're ignoring that men get raped.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. men getting raped by other men is also a dominance issue

[greyl]

64. and women who rape women etc?

www.fathermag.com/news/rape/50-men/

I wouldn't say that rape is never about dominance, only that sex is a factor.
www.nononsenseselfdefense.de/german/bonding_process.html

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. sex is a tool...and why should women who rape women

also not be displaying dominance?

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KitchenWitch]

12. Are you really sure you want to go there.

NO ONE EVER DESERVES TO BE ASSAULTED, VIOLATED, OR RAPED. There are NO CIRCUMSTANCES in which part of the fault lies with the victim. ZERO. Blaming the victim for the lack of self-control of another is just patently wrong.

[cynatnite]

21. OMG! I thought this line of thinking had died years ago

:puke:

[DS1]

46. I like how you're suggesting that all guys are lecherous creeps

who can't stop themselves from 'getting some' when a girl's passed out.

Makes me wonder more about you, than your argument

[LostinVA]

59. I agree -- it's a very frightening line of thought

Very scary and dark.

[LostinVA]

55. Your post really, literally makes me feel sick

A rape victim NEVER has ANY responsibility for her rape. ZERO. Calling a rape victim an idiot???

Seriously, what is wrong with you?

"Dress like a slut"? WTF? How misogynistic and sexist can you be? WTF difference does it make it you're drunk? She's asking for it?

RAPE IS NOT ABOUT BEING HORNY. You are so off base it's crazy.

You have some serious, serious issues and need to talk to someone. I'm not being nasty, I sincerely mean this. Your line of reasoning is very frightening.

[Mad_Dem_X]

57. Oh, my

WOW. What year are we in again?????

[the other one]

7. Actually the same as a scantily clad woman is "asking" .

Where does the expectation of safety come from?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. not the same thing

wealth inappropriately distributed may lead to crime ..it is an economic issue not a power issue

however rape has nothing to do with economic inequality and has to do with subjugating women with the threat of rape...


these things are completely unrelated

[patdem]

3. If he makes his money working in the slums, he is REQUIRED to

go there. So, just by having to go there he should get robbed because he is rich?

[jmowreader]

17. This particular one doesn't look like he works there

I know wealthy people who work in those areas. They wear modestly-priced clothes and drive used cars to work.

Don't get me wrong: they have thousand-dollar suits, nice jewelry and luxury cars. They don't go to work with those things...because they might be targeted if they did. Or, more exactly, they'd be targeted for economic extinction: people don't like to deal with people who flaunt their wealth; they certainly aren't going to spend money with them.

OTOH, if someone put on a $2000 suit and $5000 worth of jewelry so he could just stroll the slums, he's gonna get jumped--not because desperate people do desperate things, but because he's pissing people off doing that shit.

[Crunchy Frog]

4. It doesn't make the attackers any more justified

but it certainly would indicate to me that he's not taking reasonable precautions to protect his own safety.

What about a bank that fails to provide any security, and doesn't use locks? What if it gets robbed?

If I left a bunch of expensive stuff in my car, then left it unlocked and it got robbed, I'm sure I would be kicking myself. Realistically, I think there is some expectation that people will take some responsibility for maintaining their own personal safety. I hope I don't get flamed for saying that.

[Berry Cool]

6. Well, I'll flame you.

No one should have to take ANY personal responsibility for a crime having been committed against them.

It's a matter of pragmatics, of the world being the way we know the world is, that we take common-sense precautions against being mugged, burglarized, raped, you name it.

BUT...whether we do or we don't...no one has a "right" to mug, burglarize or rape. Lack of common-sense precautions on the part of a potential victim is not a license to commit the crime.

Perhaps you would be kicking yourself if the contents of your car were stolen...but you are ignoring the basic fact that no one had the right to steal what was in your car in the first place. Thus, you are not responsible for the theft. The person who took your things is.

And when a crime is committed, the issue of whether or not the victim took "reasonable precautions" or "responsibility for maintaining personal safety" should be irrevelant to the prosecution of that crime.

[the other one]

8. Not about prosecution. We agree the crime is wrong

but we don't agree that it was not invited.

Stop living in fantasy land. There are bad people who do bad things and you should expect that to continue. If they are caught they should be prosecuted and their should be no issue of the vitims intent in the court of law.

BUT face it - if you don't respect the fact that bad people do bad things, if you think you should have an expectation of safety in all place at all times, then you are living in fantasy land.

[LostinVA]

25. Oh, so a rape victim -- or the mugging victim -- is INVITING the crime

Sickening and disgusting mindset.

[Crunchy Frog]

9. I explicitly said that these crimes are never justified.

Where did you get that I was suggesting someone would have the right to commit these crimes?

By the way, why is it that your insurance rates are lower if you have an anti-theft device on your car? Are the insurance companies blaming victims now?

Sorry I can't continue this flame war. Maybe when I get home from work. :)

[seabeyond]

48. why cant the two be seperated

why cant you kick yourself in the butt for leaving door unlocked, and the person that committed the crime, totally own the theft and go to jail. why if you are kicking yourself in butt for leaving door unlocked are people assuming that is saying the person that committed the theft is off the hook?

learn a lessson in locking the door (personally i wouldnt be kicking self in butt, but hey, that is just me. what is ... is)
person who stole goes to jail.

[greyl]

16. I agree.

I wouldn't say he was asking for it or inviting it exactly, just that he didn't take reasonable precautions.

[Demit]

13. So follow it down. Follow down your line of thinking--

What kind of clothing and jewelry would the man have to wear so that he could win your approval of knowing better? So that he wasn't "flaunting his wealth"? Where is the line drawn? And I ask that as a serious question. And how does one "know" what will make people think you are showing off what you have?

If the man wears jeans, but has an expensive haircut & great teeth, for example--that well-groomed look that affluent people have--will the jeans save him?

I suspect you are trying to draw a parallel between the rich man "flaunting his wealth" and a woman "flaunting her looks". It's a flawed premise. Rape is not about sex. It's about power & degradation. Old women who are raped, and young children who are raped, are not "flaunting" anything. Please correct your thinking.

[Guaranteed]

19. I think that's the definition of having good judgment.

Knowing where those lines are, given the circumstances.

The same goes for any man who is drinking while watching a stripper. If a man gets drunk, and puts himself in a situation where he KNOWS that he's horny, and he's going to cloud his mind....

[LostinVA]

27. Again, rape is not about sex

A horny college student wouldn't rape a stripper... but a sociopathic one would.

[greyl]

37. We hear that all the time, but what is the evidence for it?

Here's one less extreme view:

Agenda over reality
It is often claimed by advocates that rape is not about sex, but power and control.

We tend to call such statements, "puddle profundities." These are ideas that initially sound deep and profound. But such statements are revealed to be gross simplifications upon closer examination, or, having greater familiarity with the complexities of the problems a person will just shake his/her head in despair. These advocates might as well put a turban and cape on, because the premise that ALL rape is about only two things is an act of mindreading. And yet they believe that in one pithy statement they have summed up the absolute motivation for hundreds of thousands of people every year...and billions over the years.

Such blanket statements are often agenda driven and parroted by people who - while having passion for the cause - have no scientific or professional objectivity. Many of the more popular advocate slogans have never been subjected to critical psychological and/or professional review to see if they do indeed hold water.

No responsible psychologist is going to make such a unsupported, speculative and blanket statement as to the absolute motivation of another person -- much less insist that the same categorically applies to thousands of people. It simply cannot accurately be done. And yet, these same puddle profundities are in many cases, influencing not only the judicial system, but the lawmaking process as well.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.de/german/bonding_process.html

edit: forgot the link

[LostinVA]

49. Again, rape is not about sex

Show me some expert links? I don't have to prove the negative -- you do.

[greyl]

54. Repeating something doesn't make it true.

As it is your claim, you must have a good reason for claiming it. What is it?

[LostinVA]

61. I don't have to prove a thing -- experts bear me out

Of course that's my reason. It is legal, medical, law enforcement, and psychology knowledge.

I can't understand your reason for wanting to equate sex and rape. It is very frightening and creepy.

You're on ignore now, because I honestly can't stand to read any more rape is sex shit.

You honestly need to educate yourself about rape.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

63. i posted two arguments below...if you need the stats let me know

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. first of all...children get raped...are these kids particularly sexy?

secondly in many countries where women are often scantily clad, rape is not that high(scandinavian countries and most of western europe & canada). and the converse is also true ...in countries like india, where women are far more covered up rape is much higher than european countries (where topless beaches abound)...

[genie_weenie]

20. So, is rape the only crime about power and subjugation?

OR do criminals committing whatever act they are doing have varied thought processes? Are you saying no thief EVER commits a robbery with the idea of lording his power to flaunt the system and make someone feel weak? ALL robbers are Jean Valjean stealing a crust of bread to feed themselves and their families since they have been oppressed by the system?

There was a topic earlier which focused on the gangs robbing illegal immigrants because they knew they had money and wouldn't go to the police. Why we they robbed? Did the robbers get a rush from the sense of power they exhibited over their victims?

And if rape isn't about sex, why not treat it simply as a very serious assault? Why the extra 'sexual' attached to it?

I do not think the premise is flawed, I think most people have a flawed way of looking at other Humans actions...

[Coexist]

14. what about a poor kid whose mom buys him expensive sneakers

should he/she never wear them, because they are just begging to be stolen.

What a twisted logic you try to employ.

Rapists go out looking for a victim. Abusers go out looking for a victim. Thieves go out looking for a victim.

The victim is not to blame.

[Deja Q]

15. Rich men typically don't do what you are saying.

Don't read into my message, however. I'm just saying your argument assumes a rich person would look his most posh and then aimlessly wander around in an area inhabited by people who'd hurt or even kill each other for money...

[cynatnite]

22. The attacker made the choice to rob n/t

[HamdenRice]

23. Once and for all: Stripping is a JOB

Even accepting the kind of absurd premise of your OP, these situations are not comparable. A rich guy in fancy clothes strolling through a crime ridden area has made a stupid decision about the likelihood of being the victim of a crime.

A scantialy clad stripper on the way to a private party is GOING TO WORK. I know there are a lot of innocent, naive people on these boards, but the reality is, there is a huge business sector out there of exotic dancers who work in clubs and in private shows. Stripping is a job, and their clubs or private parties are their work places. Strippers are not prostitutes -- they are dancers, entertainers. They expect a safe work environment, and most customers know and accept the structure of the industry.

A stripper going to work is no more expecting or asking for a sexual assault than is a movie actress who does an erotic scene in an R rated movie. It's a job. They are producing entertainment.

[ShortnFiery]

34. Still, like a rich man should drive a VW vice a BMW in a dangerous hood...

The industrious stripper is WISE (shh! no blame for crime, just poor common sense) to have her buff big brother, boy friend and/or body guard accomany her to these gigs?

We can't set aside the thought: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

No, we can't MAKE people use common sense, but it would significantly lessen the incidence of such crimes. No?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

51. great post!

thanks for being the voice of reason on this thread!

[LostinVA]

24. Total flamebait

[dogday]

26. Did the muggers ask him to go there and

did they pay him for his appearance??? You can be anywhere wearing anything and get attacked.. Get a life....

[LostinVA]

28. Agreed... as I just said: total flamebait

[dogday]

33. Absolutely Flamebait nt

[sendero]

29. OK, Ill bite...

... ever heard of the legal concept of "attractive nuisance"? That's where if you leave your keys in the car while you run into the convenience store, you have created an "attractive nuisance" that is too tempting for theives and you have broken the law.

Of course, this is a property crime rather than a crime against a person. And of course, I don't think for a second that rich people are asking to be robbed or provocatively dressed females are "asking" to be raped.

I just wanted to point out the stellar wisdom of our lawmakers.

[Deja Q]

30. And lawyers and defendents use that as means to get "justice" too...

"justice" meaning a plea of "not guilty".

[sendero]

36. As I always say..

.... there are two systems in America you DO NOT want to get caught up in.

The Justice (legal) system or the Medical system. In either case you'd better wear your good luck charm :)

[Puglover]

31. Complete flamebait

give me a fucking break. :eyes:

[genie_weenie]

32. I wonder the number of people who equate this thinking

The soldiers signed their contracts, they deserve what they get.

America voted in Bush, we deserve what we get.

Americans have allowed Bush to sully our reputation, if we go abroad and get beaten up we deserve what we get.

[ShortnFiery]

39. No, if my kid wanted to go into the Military ... I kid you not ...

I would do "just about anything" short of breaking both their legs to convince them otherwise. :scared:

These are not a black-white issues plus many of us have profound opinions already in place that have nothing to do with the facts of this case?

[genie_weenie]

42. I counsel all to not even think about the Military as an option

But, a large segment of society really does hold the belief that 'You signed up. That means you subjugate your life to the State.'

And they feel no sympathy for your 3 overseas tours. Your wrecked marriage, your shattered life, your broken spirit, your life...

But, there will always be enough disenfranchised, poor people to shuffle off into the meat grinder. But, not the Presidents family, not his daughters, not any Senators sons, those people are the elite, the ones needed to run the Nation. They are too valuable.

[ShortnFiery]

43. Oh this we agree! :-) n/t

[Chomp]

35. I respect

the OP for expressing what s/he must have known would be a very inflammatory and unpopular position to take.

True liberals aren't afraid to rattle the cage of conventional wisdom.

(I make no comment on the substantive issue).

[LostinVA]

52. True liberals, however, do not play "blame the victim"

Whether it's a mugging or rape.

[stepnw1f]

56. I Would Like to Think So (nt)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

65. making a dishonest argument is not the liberal way of doing things

this is clearly an analogy and should be phrased in that manner...

[fasttense]

40. A study done in the 80s indicates your friend wouldn't get robbed.

The study indicated that if you looked rich you were less likely to be attacked on the streets. Seems muggers chose victims that look weak. If you are dressed well and walking like you own the place, you are less likely to be mugged. But if you are a little old lady, who looks frail and weak, you are more likely to get mugged. Rich people look powerful and may have powerful friends who will hunt you down. Poor people look weaker and probably don't have powerful friends.

I can't find the study right now but I remember reading it years ago. So the comparison to rape really doesn't hold water, or does it......

[jukes]

41. this is a ridiculous argumnet

w/ no parallel to the raping of a "sex worker". it's a mere provocation w/o merit.

rich guys have no incentive to place themselves in this position.

workers in the sex industry often have no other skills to feed their children.


why are you so obsessed w/ this line of "reasoning"?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. excellent point n/t

[LostinVA]

62. I know -- scary, isn't it?

Not one man in my life would dream of something like this.... they understand the difference between rape and sex, and that women never, ever "invite" it. Or that dressing "slutty" is a reason. From my 15-year-old nephew to my male friends to y Dad to my 86-year-old granddad. Normal men do NOT think this way.

[lastliberalintexas]

44. He has the right to expect the social contract to be honored

In a civilized society we all owe an obligation to one another to honor that social contract which keeps us civilized. He is no more to blame for being a crime victim than a woman who is raped (even if a stripper) or a child who is abducted (even if after flirting online with a 40 year old man) or a homosexual who is the target of a hate crime (even if he "hits on" a hetero). The person(s) who committed the crime are the only ones to blame for their actions, and thus are the only ones charged with crimes under our legal system.

To suggest that *any* crime victim deserved what s/he got or is somehow to blame for being victimized is ludicrous and incredibly insulting.

[Cats Against Frist]

45. I understand that there is supposed to be an allegory, here

And my opinion on that is totally different -- but I think it would be safe to say that anyone who goes down to the "ghetto" and flashes his or her money around, is a fucking idiot. It still doesn't mean that he or she deserves to get robbed, but it does mean that the person doesn't have any "street smarts."

[Virginia Dare]

53. I would call that very rich man incredibly stupid if he did that...

and yes, I would say he should know better. I would probably even say he deserved to get robbed.

Now, if it was proved that he was off his meds, or he was depressed or somehow otherwise mentally incapacitated, that might be understandable.

You don't cross the street in the middle of traffic or you are asking to get run over. And yes, the driver of the other vehicle has an obligation to try and not run you over.

There is something called street smarts. There is something called common sense. There are certain situations you simply don't put yourself in, or you ARE asking for trouble.

This in no way excuses the person or persons who perpetrate the crime, and they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law after a fair trial.

Please don't take these comments as my opinions or judgements about any other matter.

[patcox2]

66. Stop making sense, its not allowed, toe the emotional PC line.

Sorry, but rules are rules, women bear no responsibility whatsoever, any suggestion of it is blaming the victim.

You have been warned.

[Moderator]

68. Locking

Locking as flame bait.