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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:20 PM
Original message
Help me understand something....
I was born in 1960. As a child, my mother did not work outside the home. My father who worked at Boeing, made a decent buck but we weren't rich.

We had a nice home on 3/4 acre with views, 2 cars, nice clothes, good schools, took nice vacations, and Mom always made sure there were 3 GOOD meals a day on the table.

When my father retired, their house was paid for, they had no credit cards, cars were paid off, and they had $50,000 in the bank, and that is back in 1980. In today's dollars that would equal about $110,000.

My question is, why is this not possible today for most Americans? How many families do you know where there is only 1 breadwinner? How many of those people will have their homes paid for when they retire? How many live debt-free?

New toys are part of the answer, but not all of it. For instance, we did not have cable, cell phones, or the internet, which today add what, $150.00 per month to a typical household's bills?

Of course back then we were a protectionist nation, imposing hefty import fees on goods. We had a strong middle-class and manufacturing jobs were a dominating force. If protecting the American market helped create the standard of living that I grew up in, why in the world did our politicians sell us out?

I'm curious what your thoughts and opinions are.
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wtbymark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. simple, to line their pockets - none for you! n/t
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. Dirt cheap oil
That's a start.

--p!
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seattlemetal Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. good question!
My cable/internet is 150/mo, and my husband and I share a cell plan for another 150/mo
power bills are thru the roof, we're home owners but got in during the boom and are now trying to refi out of the ARM 1st/2nd situation that was so popular 2 years ago and are now looking at a MUCH higher payment....we have NO kids yet are paycheck to paycheck.....go figure....
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. Our financial structure has been skewed to the top 1%. Top Bush priority.
Along with driving the power and wealth to the top 1%, Bush came into office with two other goals, making three in all: 2. Get rid of Saddam and fulfill the Project for a New American Century dream of controlling the oil fields and establishing a "democracy" in the Middle East. 3. Destroy the social safety net. End Social Security. End the New Deal, the Great Society, and anything else that stands in the way of restructuring America so as to provide cheap labor for the leisure class, the top 1% (no, not the top 10%. That's too many people).

If anybody wants to guess, I laid this out before 9/11. And I have been hurt ever since by its accuracy.
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. Yes, the social safety net has been a thorn in the side
of many conservatives since FDR started some programs. "By God, we pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps, well ok we were born into wealth and privilege, but dammit, YOU people need to pull yourselves up by your bootstraps"....

At the rate he's racking up the national debt, * will have indeed killed many social safety net programs. Most may not be impacted by those cuts today, but down the road we all will feel the pain.

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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. Consumption-based society
people live way beyond their means nowadays.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. DING! DING! DING!!
We have a winner!

You are absolutely correct! Americans survive on a little ol' thing called CREDIT, it can destroy a functioning family in a matter of months. We live beyond our means... it's sad. very sad. :cry:
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
29. consumption and throw-away society.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. With the exception of my home, I am debt free
I have an amount equal (in todays dollars) to the amount the OP posted, in the bank. Kinda retired since my job went away in 2004. I'm taking the next 3 years and going back to school. Hoping to open a business when I graduate and the little monkey is out of office.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. getting out of debt is the key
I am semi retired and my only debt is mortgage debt. I was fortunate to receive an inheritance from my mother which, with my Social Security, I can live on. However, I want to travel and the kind of travel I like is expensive (while not excessively so). So I work part time.

I started making a budget about 15 years ago. It is a liberating document actually. I am in great shape because of it!
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. life is more expensive now
There is a habit to spend more when you earn more. People end up consuming much of their earnings. One bread earner would be sufficient for a frugal family.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. Welcome to DU
Complicated question but I will try and answer. One, your dad probably did well at Boeing. He had a good, steady job that probably included a retirement, healthcare/phars, yearly raises etc. This does not exist today for most of Americans. It sounds like you lived a nice middle class lifestyle that your mom was able to stay home with the kids...also not possible today. Try paying $100/weekly for each kid for day care.
Professor Elizabeth warren was on NOW with Bill Moyer several times. She talked about this continuously.

quote.......
Warren, a law professor at Harvard (The Fragile Middle Class) and her daughter Tyagi, a former McKinsey consultant, have joined forces here to argue here that the two-parent middle-class working family is on the brink of financial disaster. The number of families declaring bankruptcy or receiving a foreclosure against their house has shot up dramatically. Presenting carefully researched economic data to support their arguments, the authors contend that, contrary to popular myth, families aren't in trouble because they're squandering their second income on luxuries. On the contrary, both incomes are almost entirely committed to necessities, such as home and car payments, health insurance and children's education costs. When an unforeseen event such as serious illness, job loss or divorce occurs, families have no discretionary income to fall back on. The authors recommend a number of useful societal solutions to get families out of this trap, such as legally prohibiting credit card companies from charging grossly unfair interest rates and exposing banks that employ a loan-to-own strategy that steers minority customers to higher mortgage rates with an eye to future foreclosures. Warren and Tyagi point out that families buy homes they cannot afford in order to live in a neighborhood with better schools. Their proposed solution, however-to institute a public school voucher system with wider choice-is less carefully thought out. Overall, however, this is a needed examination of an emerging social problem
end quote........

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465090826/qid=1143754601/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-8697360-0901436?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Excellent points, thank you
I totally spaced the medical. Yes, Boeing did indeed have gold-plated benefits, with a defined pension plan. Workers in my father's generation generally didn't have stock portfolios and did not participate in 401k investments. Indeed, 401k's didn't even exist.

Those two things right there probably add up to $600-800 per month now. We were a family of four, so today most employees would have to pay $150-300 per month in benefit premiums, and most of us no longer have defined pensions, so we invest what we can in 401k's.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. There is a reason that
50 million Americans are in trouble over health related issues. You make to much(??) to qualify for state assistance on medical but can't afford the $600 ++ for a family of 4 medical insurance. What happens when someone needs a doctor/surgery? This could throw a family into a tail spin for years. The old car breaks down..It cost $800 to fix? That also throws a family for a loop.
It's funny you learn so much when you are out there petitioning. I finished an education petition a month ago. In my day when you went on a 'field trip' the school paid for it. NOT TODAY! Families are getting nickeled and dimed to death. 3 kids can easily cost you another $50 monthly on their after school activities that schools don't pay for.
I bet the majority of families to day do not have life insurance. What happens when a spouse dies? The divorce rate has been soaring for years. Single moms are the largest growing segment living below the poverty level

Sorry, I said this is not an easy answer!!
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. You're absolutely right...
there is no one easy answer. Mentioning health care issues, reminded me that both of my folks had major medical issues. Father had Parkinson's and Mother had a litany of medical issues. Today those probably would have bankrupted the family, yet "back in the day", Boeing picked up the entire tab, except for the annual deductibles.

And yes, school events ALL cost out of pocket! I run when I see my nephews coming! lol....just kidding. I don't mind supporting their extracurricular activities. It does burn me up though, that again, like you said, all of those things used to be paid for out of school district operating funds.

My oldest nephew just hit me up for $100 to help buy equipment for his golf team. Last fall they needed money to help support the swim team. Go figure.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. This is the tip of the iceberg of redistribution of wealth
That is WHY middle class people voting for Bushit is so ridiculous. THEY keep giving more tax breaks to those whom do not need it while working class people are sucking the big one. When you read Professor Warren's book she will tell you this has been going on for decades, but few noticed until recently.
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Just ordered the book from Amazon. Thx for the link! n/t
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PsN2Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. I think at least some of it is obvious
NAFTA, WTO, outsourcing jobs, importing labor.
Manufacturing used to be the way a person could enter the workforce, serve an apprenticeship and in four years be making pretty damn good money. Those jobs have left this country by the millions, three million since 2000 and God only knows how many before.
I worked in construction at which time my wife could work or not as she chose. My pay even with the seasonal lay-offs common to the trade was more than adequate for our actual expenses. Now much of construction pays less than it did twenty five years ago, much thanks to imported labor.
Our government while controlled by Democrats or Repubs has bargained away a way of life under the guise of fair trade (free trade). And now propose that citizens compete for the jobs they now hold with newly minted "legal immigrants".
But, hang on to your hat because I think you are going to see things get a helluva lot worse and soon.
I'm fortunately retired with no mortgage, car payments or anything but those bills most everyone has, utilities, taxes, insurance, etc but even those have gone up a great amount due to deregulation and other causes.
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. totally understand the construction issue...
a very close friend is in the flooring\counter end of things, and is always being underbid by company's not exactly playing fair in regards to labor laws.

Developers\builders just want the lowest bid. Quality is no longer an issue unless it's a high end builder doing custom work.

My friend is now working 7 day weeks just to keep his head above water. Rather than quality, its quantity. It's tough to compete with people willing to work for $7-10 per hour.
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TalkingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
11. In the 60s you could buy a house for what a value priced car costs today.
Around $17K then for an average home. (Just outside Pittsburgh)
The price went up 1000 per year for every year of the decade.

In the mid-70's the year to year price increase was a 3 to 5K per year.
And the median income did not keep pace with the leaps in the cost of goods.

In 1970 a house cost: 26.5K
Median Income:8.5K

In 1977 a house cost: 54K
Median Income:13.5K

As you can see in 70 the house cost 3 times the Median income. In 77 the house costs a little over 4 times income. And that's just in 7 years time. It continued to inflate from there.

You could get a good car for a few hundred bucks.

My hubby was laughing about a mid 70's SuperBowl auto ad he saw a couple of weeks ago. The big selling point between two different American cars was that the one being advertised was 53 dollars less!!!! than the competitor.

In the mid-1970's I remember filling up a gallon jug with gasoline (for the lawmower) for 25 cents. I knew even then that was not enough money for the value I was getting.

So, simple answer, income has not nearly kept pace with the cost of good.

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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Good points.....
I forgot to mention my father bought our house in 1947 for $5,000, before he got married. As they adopted us kids, they kept adding on to it. We never did move. Over time it became a 3 bedroom\2 bath ranch. Today it's worth about $325-350k.

Which brings up one of your points. In order to stay within the 3-4 times income ratio, 1 breadwinner would have to be earning $90-100k in order to buy that house. Average income is probably half of that in the Seattle. Seattle\King County income averages are skewed by Boeing and Microsoft employees too, something to keep in mind. Most of us don't work at either of those places.

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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. There is alot of 'stuff' that corporate America
convinced everyone they need. When I was younger you had 'rabbit ears' on a TV..not $150 for cable to get a good picture. I still don't have a cell phone. Kids are getting heart disease/diabetes because they don't eat well or exercise. How much money does the average family spend on eating out?? Playing outside cost nothing...today the play stations/video games are a fortune.

Oprah has been doing several shows on this..following families that make way over $100K and are over $100K in debt.
http://www2.oprah.com/money/debtdiet/money_debtdiet_main.jhtml
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. The house I just bought cost me 5 X my annual income.
The mortgage is more than 50% of my net pay, after health insurance deductions.

I shouldn't be trying to manage this on a single income. Still.....I bought the house a year ago. It was a cheap "fixer." It was that or rent. I couldn't buy it today. If it was on the wrong side of my single teacher's salary then, it's untouchable now. A similar place in the neighborhood needing less "fixing" was just listed for a whopping $460K more than I paid for my place. My entire salary wouldn't pay that mortgage.
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. You have plenty of company......
I think in most major American cities, many people are spending 50% of their net on housing. Even rents are rising again, so it's not just homeowners.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Yes.
That's why I went ahead, even though I knew I was overextending. At least, with a fixed rate mortgage, my rent won't keep going up.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. The difference is one generation of corporatism
Outsourcing, union busting, relaxation of government controls over employment and all the favoritism towards business started with the Reagan Administration 26 years or one generation ago.

We went from eradicating poverty under the Johnson Administration to eradicating the middle class under corporatism. That's the difference. There is no longer a middle class, only the rich and the poor remain.

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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Unions WERE stronger..
especially in Seattle. They all worked together and could shut this city down when they wanted to. That started to change in the '60-'70's.

Our garbage truck drivers are threatening to walk out tomorrow if they don't get a deal. Most people just shrug their shoulders. "Back in the day", the other unions would be standing right beside them, ready to shut everything down.
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. The ultrarich want to live like kings and queens.
And they are doing a good job of creating the conditions required to do so.

"There's some lovely muck over here, Dennis."
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
15. Real world wages have been on a long downward slide for decades
1972 is the peak, and the ratio between wages and inflation has trended downwards since then. Sure, there were a couple of peaks during the Clinton years, but those were more than offset during the steep slides during the Reagan, Bush 1 and Bushboy years.

Also, well paying jobs for those without a college education have disappeared over the past decade, and even if you have a college education now, it is no guarantee of being well paid. Outsourcing is taking an increasing amount of these jobs.

We have gone from being a manufacturing based economy to a service based economy, and service based economies are notorious for low wages.

These are a few of the reasons this has happened.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
21. When I was young, my dad was making about
Edited on Thu Mar-30-06 05:18 PM by lukasahero
$50k/year. My mom worked part-time and brought home about $15/k more.

-When I was young, the house we lived in cost them $15,000.
-They could fill the tank with $5.
-Cigarettes (yes, they smoked) cost $0.57/pack.
-Levi's jeans might have cost $12.
-My anticipated college tuition fees were expected to be around $4000/year.

Today (30 years later) my brother-in-law earns about $45k/year. My sister works part time and bring home an additional $15k/year.

-The house they live in (it's small) cost them $85,000 (in 1985 - now would be about $130,000).
-They can get 2 gallons of gas for $5.
-Cigarettes (they smoke but are quitting) cost $5.00/pack.
-Levi's jeans cost $35/pair and
-the anticipated college tuition fees they are expecting for their three boys at a modest in-state-school are $14,000/year.

What changed in this picture? I'll give you a hint, the only thing that didn't were the earnings.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Real estate in some areas is through the roof. for ex. my parents place

Northern NJ, 4 bedroom modified cape in Allendale (nice schools)

Bought it in 1971 for 55k
Sold it in 1991 for 300k
The next owner sold it in 199 for 500k
Its now on the market for 999k.


Thats just freakish but not uncommon in some places.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
23. inflation
Edited on Thu Mar-30-06 05:28 PM by pitohui
in 1968 my dad earned $10,000, a new car -- a NEW car and a buick, not a hyundia, cost $2000, one-fifth of his income

a house -- a nice brick house with three bedrooms -- cost $28,000 --not three years of his annual income

today prices are just much higher proportionate to income

an engineer like my dad would earn $60K but the good NEW car would be $30K, half a year's income before taxes

the house would be $300,000 -- 5 years income

but the kicker is health care, which has seen double digit inflation in those same years, from paying nothing for health care as part of his employment benefits, he would be paying $500 a month or $6000 year to insure his family PLUS copays if any of us actually dared to get sick

also public schools used to be considered good, now they are deliberately underfunded because, god forbid, some black kid might learn something (and that is the reason, we all know it) so you have to pay for these huge education costs for private in many areas and that it just high school

college costs as we all know are just crazy

so wages proportionate to costs are a fraction of what they used to be

the only thing that even allows people to keep it all going and still have families is easy credit
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
28. One word - Raygun
Ronald Raygun's supply-side, trickle-down economics ruined the financial viability of the typical American family.
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mcar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
30. How much did your parents house cost?
How much was food, cars, gas, etc.

This is not possible for most Americans today because the cost of living outpaces income. I was born in 1958, the 3rd of 4 children in a solidly middle class family. My mother raised the kids, Dad worked. We moved to a new town in 1964 into a very nice neighborhood in a 4 bedroom house with a full attic and cellar. It cost $18,000. My parents were worried that it was too expensive because that was my father's annual income! My parents were able to save for our college and their retirement (although unfortunately they didn't live long enough to enjoy it.:cry:

Fast forward to today: My husband is a public school teacher. We live in a rural community where, until recently, the cost of living was relatively low. We have since been affected by the housing boom. Until 4 years ago, I worked full time as well. The house we bought 13 years ago cost slightly more than 1 years' salary for both of us -- but again, that was in a very cheap real estate market.

I have since left my full time job and work part time as a freelance writer and editor. We have one son in college, going almost completely on scholarship and grants. We have no savings, but we do have mortgage and car debts. We do not have cable, new cars, fancy clothes or expensive "toys." Our television fits on a small stand. We do not take expensive vacations, go to restaurants or much else. Our oldest son has health problems and we have some hefty medical bills, even with insurance.

We are barely getting by on 1 1/2 incomes. A new roof, a car wreck or another illness would ruin us. We could move so I could go back to full time work and make a high salary but we'd have a higher mortgage, another car loan, child care costs for our 8 year old, work clothes for me, etc, etc. So we are trying to make this work. My husband, who works 60+ hours a week as an underpaid teacher, is looking for a part-time job and I am trying to get more business.

Very few families can live on one income today and it's not frivolous spending that causes it in most cases. Wages are depressed, health care costs are ridiculous and it just costs much more to live than it did back then. I get very frustrated by the Reagan Republicans who think it's possible.

We did have a strong middle class back then. The middle class is vanishing before our very eyes and most people don't know it. They're working too hard and are too stressed to see it. Or, they're repukes who are more concerned with gay marriage. :eyes:
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. OK, we're about the same age...
well, ONE of us is a bit older, but we won't go there. :)

So, is the period that we grew up in an anomaly? Post WWII bubble of prosperity? That's my point of reference, what I consider normal. What is happening now just seems so outlandish.

It just seems absurd to me that our own government is crushing, and selling out, the vibrant middle-class, and yet people keep electing the same people.

OK, the folks earning $100,000k who have $100,000 in credit card debt are absolute idiots. I'm not concerned about them in the least. Who concerns me, are the everyday middle-income wage earners who are struggling to just get by.

And yet the government just stands by watching doing absolutely nothing, or worse, even piles on, this ever shrinking backbone of society. I'm just not understanding this "race to the bottom", and why so many of us are allowing it to happen.

But yes, thank GOD, that Ed and Steve down the street can't get married. That would totally destroy our society. :banghead:
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mcar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. One of us isn't counting her age much anymore!
I don't know if it was an anomaly or not. And you're right. Our government is selling out the middle class and people keep electing them.

These days, though, even people making $100,000 have a hard time making ends meet. Depending on where they live, that can be a fairly low salary. Not for here, but in the Northeast, definitely.

Where I live is a Florida mostly-retirment community that is lucky to have decent schools. But, it's a service economy, which means minimum wage is the norm. We're at the point now where working people can't afford to live here -- and this is a no-industry area where the average age is 60+. Can you imagine what it's like in a metropolitan area?

I don't know the answer but I know there's a real problem. But of course, the real issue is the War on Christmas...or Easter... or Xtians (I say this in complete sarcasm as a liberal Christian). :hi:
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globalglobalglobal Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
37. your reality, your happiness-increase potential

i will rephrase your question:  why do 50% of americans have
'fortunes' smaller than $2000? - why are things getting worse?

because the richgetricherandthepoorgetpoorer - that is, money
moves ceaselessly, automatically and legally, from earners to
nonearners - everyone grasps that the rich do not get richer
by working proportionately harder - bill gates does not get
paid $10,ooo,ooo an hour [peak income] because he works a
million times harder than the average worker [who gets $10 an
hour - 1999 figures - it doubles every 12 years or so with
global inflation of around 6% a year - so in 2006 it is around
$15 an hour - if you pay all housewives and tertiary students
as well - who work, of course, and therefore should be paid]

because the people, who are the rulers in a democracy, have
done nothing to prevent this egregious superoverpay - the
people have not been vigilant - although the first thing the
founding fathers did after signing the decl of ind was take
steps to prevent unlimited fortunes - obviously money is
power, superoverpay is tyranny

the people have not known that the survival of a democracy
depends wholly on limitation of fortunes, the prevention of
overfortunes, the prevention of people [fewer and fewer]
getting richer and richer endlessly, getting more and more
powerful endlessly, getting more and more tyrannical and
corrupt - 

because people have missed seeing the most obvious thing, that
if money ceaselessly, automatically, legally drifts from
earners to nonearners, violence is going to rise and rise and
rise - you cant have legal theft on a grand scale in a society
without trouble - the purpose of govt is justice [james
madison] - otherwise you have vendetta-style endless back and
forth between robbers and robbed - 

because people have abdicated rule - they do not monitor what
the national reality is, they do not study what is good, what
is bad, they have not monitored what their 'representatives'
are representing, they do not devote any time to deciding what
they want and what they need for a happy life - not even the
most important obvious truth, that you must prevent the
endless increase of over/underpay, which of course generates
millions of problems, getting everworse

the endless increase of overunderpay is theft - theft of money
[which satisfies all needs and millions of desires], theft of
power [freedom], and theft of peace [higher and higher
policing/legal/courts costs, lower and lower street safety],
theft of uncorruption

everyone knows power corrupts - everyone knows money is power
- what have you done about it - nothing - you have reaped what
you have sown - chaos

because the people have said: i dont need to think about
national issues, let someone else do that - you have given
your leaders carte blanche, and they have run away with the
money, laughing all the way to the bank, because you do
nothing when your money, power, peace and safety is stolen

because no one has taught you the many many legal ways that
money moves from earners to nonearners - eg, inflation - the
govt writes money into existence, which reduces the value of
every dollar in the country, and then lends this new money to
the people and, over the time of mortgages, gets back maybe
three times what they lent - and the money they lend they had
stolen from the people in the first place - eg, a person buys
land for peanuts, others build a city around that land and
make that land very valuable, and the people let the owner of
the land walk away with their labour

because no one asks themselves the obvious question: how is it
that someone else works no harder than me, and yet is paid a
million times as much? - no one has suggested that there is
something wrong here - no one has decided that this is wrong,
must not be, is anti-democracy, anti-liberty, anti-equality,
anti-fraternity, anti-community, anti-national, anti-social,
traitorous theft that destroys the state

because people instead admire and respect the superoverpaid -
the people have preened themselves on the size of their
superrich - have never made the connection between increasing
overpay and increasing underpay - when bill gates gives one
hour to society, and takes out as legal reward for that hour's
work $10,ooo,ooo, he legally gets ownership of a million hours
work - he puts in one hour, he gets out the wealth, good and
services of a million person-hours - in the form of a house or
factory worth $10,ooo,ooo  - a thing bill could not design the
doorhandles of, in one hour - he can do one hour's work and
get paid a million hours work - this is not clear to people -
this is not something that is clear to economists - or it is
clear to them, but it is also clear that they will not get
their bit of overpay if they buck the system by informing the
people they are being robbed - ie, they are bribed, and betray
the state 

everyone know that the richgetricher, everyone knows that this
is not just, ie, that this is theft - that it is not because
the rich put in as much as they take out - that the rich
taking out more than they put in means everyone else taking
out less than they put in - and nobody does anything about it

and the violence is proportional to the injustice - and pay
for a fortnight's work now ranges from $1,ooo,ooo,ooo [one
billion] to $1 - an
injustice/violence/inequality/unliberty/corruption/unfraternity/problems/crises/unhope/unbeauty
factor of one billion - and no great soul, no great writer, no
nobel prize winner, no dalai lama, no mother theresa, no
nelson mandela, is talking about it - [and how many are
listening to it?]

because everyone is chirping happily about this and that -
making a terrific din, like cicadas - and being totally
uninterested in any real answers - immediately switching off
to something lighter, less real - consulting their immediate
comfort, their familiar comfortzone, not their longrange,
largeview happiness - which is serious business - the greatest
optimist is the one who faces the biggest problem - 

if people showed the least sign of interest in their own
happiness, of facing reality, of willingness to try to see and
to study the problems, there is a solution - an easy solution
- total cost: learning it and teaching it to two people - a
few month's sparetime work - benefits: nonextinction, world
peace, more pay for 99% of people, freedom forever from
tyranny, corruption, far fewer problems - like, 100th the
problems, and no terrible problems - and people's ears are
stuffed - look at all the chatter in this forum, happy chatter
about juicy mites on the leaves of the tree of problems - the
total certainty that it is fine and right to fill your mental
spaces with chitchat - as if there are no real problems, no
unhappiness - as though there is nothing to do but chatter and
enjoy - and if they do work on a problem with sincerity and
seriousness, it is just any problem they found lying around
and which they like - no effort has gone in to finding out
what problem being worked on will solve millions of problems,
no effort has gone into determining which problem will be most
efficient at increasing happiness, decreasing problems and
social uglinesses like corruption and tyranny

'there are a 1000 striking at the branches of the tree of
problems for every one who is striking at the root' - henry
thoreau - this thought is worth zillions - it can remind us to
search for the source of the trouble - 

birds in a tree, that is a great food tree, but is being taken
over by a vine - the birds attack the vine where it is closest
to them, but the vine is too vigorous and defeats them - if
the birds had done something not natural for them, and studied
the tree all over, they would have found that the vine was
much more vulnerable and defeatable at the trunk end - a
couple of woodpeckers could bring it down in an hour, a
friendly beaver in two minutes - if the birds had spent less
time talking about the terrible things happening today at the
million tendril ends, how this leaf of the tree had succumbed
to the vine, the difficulties they had pecking through the
tendril today, they might have seen the solution and saved
themselves

'a friend is one who warns you'

the truth will piss you off, but it is the only way to
happiness, out of problems - happiness lives in realityville,
it doesnt even have a holiday home in unreality - you can see
clearly and be stoneblind at the same time: see a steel track
with crystal clarity and be run over by a train - be an expert
on the mona lisa through a microscope and not even know, or
completely forget, it is a picture of a woman! - only those
who see the big picture are awake - you can be awake to
today's details about bush, iraq, american politics, and be
stoneblind to reality, which is perfectly heartless about
running you over! - 

just a law that counterbalances the ceaseless effect of the
drift of money from earners to nonearners is all it takes to
cut the trunk of this vine whose tendrils are bush and iraq
and a million other intractable problems - eg, overfortunes on
decease to go direct into the bank accounts of the most
underpaid - from where it will trickle up, refreshing every
level of the economy, expanding markets, reducing violence,
reducing tyranny, increasing capital formation [savings,
investment capital], increasing real [=inflation-adjusted]
income growth - a return to the american dream of a land of
the free - a breakaway from racing to extinction via
ever-increasing violence, war and weaponry caused by ever
increasing theft of earnings

if you graph the lowest hourly payrate at one millimetre, you
have to graph the highest hourly payrate at 1000 KILOMETRES  =
a million metres = a billion millmetres - over 90% of world
wealth goes daily to 1% - and yet no one can work more than
twice as many hours a week [100] as the average [50]  - does
this state of affairs indicate that we are just too stupid by
far to save ourselves? - thinkers should have been talking
about inequity when it had reached a factor of 10 - highest
hourly pay 10 times lowest hourly pay is too much for
equality, fraternity, uncorruption and democracy! - 

just so that 1% can be overpaid, we have 99% underpaid, 90%
paid less than 10% of what they earn, of the wealth they
create by their work, 90% paid between 10th and 1000th of what
they create by their work - i dont say: compassion - i say:
pragmatics, good sense, survival, your happiness, your
selfinterest - see your anger at being reduced to 100th of
your income [for the same amount of work] and multiply by 5
billion - that is the anger, war, crime, mafiaism and
terrorism that will disappear with justice

if no one was paid more than US$15 an hour, every family IN
THE WORLD working average hard, would have an income of
$75,000 a year - and 90% are on between $7500 and $75 a year!
- can the world support such superchaos? - can the human mind
survive the horrors and terrors that that gives birth to? -
can any empire afford the amount of defense that that degree
of theft requires? - britain plundered the world, and used up
all its plunder trying to hold on to its plunder - british
empire is no more - america is going the same way - the torch
is passing to japan, as most overpaid nation, and japan will
go the same way - [eg, 7 of the top 10 banks have moved to
japan]

is there wisdom here? - are there good points here? - is there
important information here? - is there solution here? - is
there great hope here? - i am incapable of thinking that
people will detect no wisdom or good sense here - i may be
wrong - plenty more insight and good sense - FREE - at
www.globalhappiness.org [not an org] - survival is too
important, extinction is too close, to have to buy it - 

everyone in the world can hear about this plan in just 32
times the time it takes one person to fully communicate all
the important points to 2 people [a few months] - in a crowd
of people with candles and only one candle lit, how long does
it take to light everyone's candles? - 4 billion candles can
be lit in just 32 times the time it takes to light one candle!
- if everyone lights only 2 candles!

god, dont say: he is trying to get us to go his way, i never
go someone else's way -  i say: go your own way [you can do no
other] but use whatever opinions you can that seem good to you
- be open to suggestions - others can have knowledge you don't
- it is no disgrace to your individuality to borrow good bits
from others - 

you can say: i prefer the democrats - but that is not much, is
it? - what does your prefered party have to know to make you
maximally happy? - what do you have to know, to tell your
party what to do, to make yourself maximally happy?

is information, insight, that is vital, essential to your
survival and maximal happiness, at www.globalhappiness.org
[not an org]? - or not? - it either is or isnt - is there so
clearly so much good sound advice here, in this post, that it
is likely that there is more good sense at globalhappiness?

gates didnt get, on average, over his worklife, 50,000 times
the average pay because he worked at the computer, read
documents, chaired meetings 50,000 times faster than the
average - he got so much because new technology has inbuilt
scarcity - huge demand, small supply - so he can get a price
many times costs - same with electricity - cheaper and better
than gas - so the sellers of electricity got rich because they
could ask price well above costs - not because they earned the
money they got - the customer gave more of his labour to buy
electricity than the company put labour into providing the
electricity - so money passed from earners to nonearners

if a person works 100 hours a week for 50 years, they do only
250,000 hours - and they certainly dont work harder than the
average hardness of working per unit of time if they are
working 100 hours a week! - and the average pay is [2006]
US$15 an hour - so no one earnes more than 250,000 x $15 =
$3.75 million - I doubt if anyone can work 100 hours a week
for 50 years - so 250,000 hours is certainly a generous
allowance for the maximum work done - so the largest
selfearned fortune is US$2.75 million - allowing $1 million
[$20,000 a year] as minimum lifetime spending

and none of the 'reasons' for paying higher than average,
higher than equal, pay per hour stands up to good sense -
business risk, merit, brains, talent, skill, experience,
responsibility, etc - [i can expand on this] - anyway, 99%
will get more per hour with equal hourly pay, so it is not in
their interests to be against equal hourly pay

$75,000 a year per family working average hard would be
paradise for us all - 99% of violence, war and crime gone,
certainty of extinction in the nearish future gone - markets
10 times bigger - 10 times as many scientists, capitalists,
inventors, entrepreneurs, artists, geniuses, etc - tyranny
gone, corruption 99% gone - hope and faith high - mental
health high - 

every move in the direction of justice in history has been
good - eg, henry ford high-wages economics [the worker is the
consumer], marshall plan [prevented worldwide depression,
prevented another hitler], macarthur's land reform in japan
[from defeated, firebombed nation to top nation in 50 years!],
china is very strong, growing fast because of the injection of
much fairer pay [they will start to lose their strength, their
internal peace, if they don't set a limit to overfortunes],
sparta strong after lycurgus's reforms, america strong as long
as limitation-of-fortunes law was effective, roman empire
growing fast, though small, when there was low overunderpay
[roman empire falling fast, though large, when there was large
overunderpay]

the writing is all over the wall:  control overpay or enjoy
the perpetual global snowstorm [of nuclear winter] - can
inequity, violence, corruption continue to grow endlessly
without REACHING world war 3?

only 1.6% of your genes differ from chimpanzees - can you get
smart/sober/serious/sincere/awake quick enough? - 

or is it more important to resent me having the nerve to
presume to lovingly give you my best warning?

we are on the brink of extinction

we are on the brink of 1000-fold happiness - and everyone
already agrees!

why? - because everyone already knows that, if you had equal,
average hourly pay for all, and a world government implemented
changing this to hourly pay from a million times to 1000th of
the average [ie, taking most earnings off most people and
giving it to the very few], you would have 1000-fold increase
in trouble, pain, horror, terrorism, war, crime, danger,
mafiaism, social ugliness, corruption, tyranny, torture,
mental disease, physical disease, ignorance, destruction,
waste, 9/11s, bush's, nero's, vietnams, biafras, etc, etc, etc

even the sane and rational among the 1% overpaid will prefer
losing the satisfaction of a few very marginal desires [for
fairpay satisfies all needs and millions of desires, leaving
few - gold faucets don't add much to quality of life], and
losing the very great danger of having overpay among so many
underpaid, and gaining nonextinction, world peace, friendship
and trust of the human tribe, freedom, etc, etc - it's a great
bargain for them too! - how many, given a choice between theft
and survival, will not give up theft? - even if the whole 1%
prefer theft to survival, they are still outnumbered 99 to 1

edward filene ['why shouldn't i give half my money to the
american people? they gave it all to me'] shows that there are
some sane among the overpaid - [it isn't HIS money:
'philanthropist: a thief who is kind to beggars' [ambrose
bierce]; charity of the rich: stealing the pig and giving the
feet in charity]

how many of the present laws are against the interests of the
people, and for the interests of the 0.01% superoverpaid? -
'they [the rich] are not only breaking the laws, they are
making the laws' - of course - you gave them unlimited power,
let your fairshare of power leave you and go to them - why
would they care about you? - you have made them gi-ants and
made yourselves ants - how much do you care when you tread on
an ant? - you give them unlimited power in the form of money,
your money, and then spend your days going: oh, look, they
trod on millions of ants [katrina, iraq], that isnt very nice,
i hope they dont tread on me

what do I get out of it? - survival and 1000-fold happiness -
we are all in the one boat now, thanks to ships and planes and
phones and computers and global bombs

we are all being unjust, because we are all taking everything
we get - none of us are aiming to take out of the social pool
of wealth no more than we put in - it is just grabgrabgrab -
the highest price i can get - and everyone forced to fight
everyone else, endlessly, escalatingly, exhaustingly,
extinctionistically - whereas there is enough for all to
satisfy all needs, and millions of desires - overpay comes
with an angry person attached, and he never stops until he has
got back his own, or until you have nothing left 

have i done everything i can do to make this as clear as
possible?

any good questions?

any sobriety, sincerity out there? - or are your mechanisms
for avoiding reality too efficient, your cocoon of the
familiar too cosy, for you to be free to save yourself? 




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