I do NOT believe the "Rove shielded the Pres"-it's IRAN/CONTRA REDUX

[liveoaktx]

I've been reading for the past month a couple of books on Iran Contra "A Very Thin Line" and "Firewall" and there's NO question that Reagan knew about the arms deals, in fact wanted them, and in one instance chafed that he wasn't getting credit for having been behind it. The decision was made with that White House administration that it would be better to have Reagan look like a clueless out of the loop person that look like a complicit criminal.

Edward Meese, Reagan's chief of staff, also put out baloney to shield the president. Reagan was in direct danger of being impeached during Iran/Contra.

You know how many of the SAME people are around in this administration?

I'm saying I don't believe it. I think it's BS and it's the MO of criminals who are trying for some bizarre reason (maybe because he would be IMPEACHED) to shield Bush from getting investigate.

[Atman]

1. I'd say...

You're absolutely spot-on!

Rec One!

[Nickster]

2. I'd concur. n/t

[MadMaddie]

3. I agree..that was my first thought...now they are trying to

distance * from the criminal activity.....Rove is the worst kind of person to turn on....he will sell his soul, his mothers soul and his kids souls to seek vengence...:popcorn:

[EFerrari]

4. I agree. These Iran/Contra guys must drink the blood of virgins

or something because they're STILL HERE.

[blm]

24. All we needed was a Democratic president in 93 to open the books.

.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. i have never believed that bush was clueless at all.

he may not be eloquent but he knows what is going on is his government and its policies.

he is not out of the loop...he is the centre of everything.

[blm]

11. Bush was a GOP strategist for 3 decades working every dirty trick with

Atwater and Rove.

The media likes to leave that part of his resume on the editting room floor.

[Gabi Hayes]

19. jah, but don't you think he's reached his level of incompetency?

if you read John Nichols' book on Cheney, you might come to his conclusion: Cheney's the man behind the curtain, and dumbo is de facto

[blm]

20. Cheney handles policy - Bush handles poliTICS.

.

[Gabi Hayes]

25. what about Rove? I really think bush plays at politics, especially now

like nixon in his last years, he may think he's giving orders, but my guess is they let him believe he's in a decision making position

who can know the unknown knowns, but he seems SO utterly clueless when he tries to string words together that I can't imagine him spending the time necessary to develop any sort of coherent sense of strategy

[blm]

29. Rove and Bush have been 2 peas in a pod for decades.

They thrive on deceit and manipulation to the nth degree.

[Gabi Hayes]

30. I know, but 'Bush's Brain' and 'Dick' have sealed the deal for me

he's a ping pong ball, bouncing between Rove and Cheney

[0007]

28. Like a thief in the night, junior is wide a wake.

[Gabi Hayes]

6. and who SPEARHEADED the republican defense in congress?

[Nickster]

8. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. MY EYES!!!!!!!!! n/t

[blm]

10. Why, it's Dick "John Kerry is a conspiracy theory nut" Cheney.

.

[danalytical]

7. in Chess

you always sacrifice your queen to save your king no? Unfortunately the morans half heartedly paying attention don't play much chess.

[harpo]

12. you sacrifice everything for the king in chess

;)

[Virginia Dare]

9. I actually believe..

Reagan knew nothing about Iran/Contra. I'm undecided about Chimpy.

( See the conspiracy theory thread above on his assasination attempt).

:tinfoilhat:

[liveoaktx]

13. Firewall, p 13-book written by Walsh, independent Iran/Contra investigator

Finally, Regan turned to Meese for the answer to the critical question: Had the president approved the November 1985 Hawk shipment? Everyone in the room already knew the true answer. Regan had heard the president admit knowledge of the shipment to Shultz on Thursday. Shultz had confirmed this to Meese on Saturday. What was needed now was a political answer.... Regan laid out that day in a memorandum entitled 'Plan of Action',"Tough as it seems, he wrote, blame must be put at NSC's door... rogue operation, going on without the president's knowledge or sanction". The goal would be to try to make the best of a sensational story.

[Pithy Cherub]

14. You really, really need to read, Firewall by Lawrence Walsh.

There is no question that reagan knew and was an accomplice. The rule in the White House is that everybody does everything possible to shield the president from taking the hit. That is why the conspiracy charges loom so large over White House mechanizations because of the amount of collusion.

To get the point about how each president gets in trouble understand how the national security apparatus really is crafted and then undermined on purpose. Read the book Running The World by D. Rothkopf. It also exposes what Reagan had to bring in Colin Powell & Brent Scowcroft to clean up the mess left after covert ops went really bad.

Your conclusion on Reagan is really off base.

[Virginia Dare]

15. Okay, thanks....

I guess I should have qualified my statement to say that I don't think he was involved in the original plan, but I may be off base about that too. By the way, I wasn't absolving him by any means. I've heard things over the years from some insiders, that's how I came to the conclusion, but I'll certainly check out the book.

:hi:

[liveoaktx]

17. I was not paying attention during the Iran/Contra scandal and also

came away with an impression that Reagan was this sort of ignorant chuckle-headed guy who fell asleep in meetings and had to have 3x5 cards in front of him. Whether those last are true or not, there was a deliberate effort to have him come out that way from the scandal-he would have been IMPEACHED. He knew that he was breaking the law when Congress cut off the funding and he did it anyway through covert means.

I just finished last night reading about George Bush Sr and what he knew. He also is a liar and a criminal. No wonder Junior had his and Reagan's records classified so that the public can't read them, especially while Junior is president and has so much of the same staff as was complicit in Iran/Contra.

[Gabi Hayes]

18. that's some book, isn't it? when you finish it, try Lost History, by

Robert Parry, or just go to Consortiumnews.com, and see the archives

he was the reporter who 'discovered' Ollie North, and lost his jobs at Newsweek and one of the wire services because he refused to stop covering the unfolding scandal

one of the best stories (might even be in firewall) is how certain members of congress would make reams of documents available to reporters at the end of each day's session. Parry would go up to the table every day to get the docs, and only ONE other reporter ever bothered to pick them up. that's why he broke the story, cause he was a real journalist

his latest book is excellent, as well.

[Virginia Dare]

21. That was where I was going with this...

it was told to me by someone who certainly would be in a position to know that it was Poppy's scheme from start to finish, and we'll never find the papertrail. I was not as well informed about Ronnie's role, but that probably will never be fully known either.

:scared:

[liveoaktx]

22. Actually, it is documented in the books we're talking about...

That's what makes the Iran/Contra scandal so disgusting-it was a Constitutional crisis that passed without fixing the problem. The criminals got away with it. And the paper trail is documented.

Read the book.

[blm]

23. Now you can understand why I admire Kerry and Parry so much.

They both sacrificed alot to uncover the trail of IranContra - it was a whole year before Kerry could get any traction with the rest of the senate who stayed uninterested until headlines started popping up and they used seniority to bump Kerry after all his work.

Then he moved on to BCCI which he noticed during his IranContra investigations.

It's BCCI that actually holds all the secrets to the BFEE and the international players.

[Gabi Hayes]

26. absolutely....and Parry needs money

http://www.consortiumnews.com/

don't be cheap!

http://www.consortiumnews.com/cont.html

[blm]

27. Give it a thread.

Most of DU is familiar with Parry's site.

[Gabi Hayes]

31. here's big waaaa waaaa....nobody pays any attention to mine

yours, on the other hand.....

if you want, I'll set it up, and PM it to you, and you can put your name on it!

[blm]

32. You have GOT to be joking...... you do know that

I probably hold the record at DU for being on the most ignore lists, don't you?

[Gabi Hayes]

35. huh? why do people do that? your posts/threads are always right

on target, AFAICR.

why do you get put on ignore, btw, blm?

you're not one of those comsymps, are you? you're not trying to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids, are you?

[blm]

36. heh...no... it's cuz every now and then I lose my cool and get sarcastic

in my replies. I get really snippy when people repeatedly post attacks against Dem lawmakers that are WAY offbase and dangerously misinformed, too.

[Gabi Hayes]

38. don't get snippy with me, now!

and see?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x801068

it's pretty damn funny, too!

[Virginia Dare]

39. Well, I guess that answers the question..

as to how they're getting away with this, they already got away with it once, they've just gotten much bolder and much more ambitious this time.

[Gabi Hayes]

16. ooops...missed the above answers

sorry

[H2O Man]

33. "Plausible deniability."

The Iran-Contra scandals made this phrase famous. It was a policy that Reagan's vice president brought to the White House from an agency he had previously worked for.

[Disturbed]

34. Reagon knew, Bush1 knew and Shrub knows.

It is always best for a Pres. to be a bit out of touch than to be proven a criminal.

[emulatorloo]

37. kick n/t

[Ganja Ninja]

40. I don't buy it either.

Even if he was he should still be impeached for his incompetence. A President is supposed to be in charge and on top of things. Imagine if a Democratic President were to try and excuse himself with this tired old republican excuse. It wouldn't even get anyone's attention. It would be dismissed immediately for what it is, bullshit!

[leveymg]

41. Clueless but complicit. Both of them. RICO case law holds that

a "pattern and practice" of unlawful activities within organizations are the reponsibility of upper management when they "could have or should have" known what was going on, but failed to prevent it.

If Reagan or Bush were actually brought to trial under RICO or federal conspiracy statutes, they'd be guilty as charged. Next case.