Okay. What is this thing with flags?

[baby_mouse]

What IS this big *flag* thing? Cos, there's people all over the board saying all sorts of stuff about flags, and I'm thinking: "uh, it's a piece of cloth, dude," and they seem to be thinking something completely different.

It's starting to look like significant numbers of people on this discussion board would base their opinion on how these immigrants should be treated *not* on their status as legal or illegal immigrants or their race or their ability to work or how long they've already lived in the States *but* on what flag they fly during their protests. SPECIFICALLY THAT.

Which doesn't make any sense.

:wtf:

Um.

Flags are kinda creepy, to me. Not all flags (I don't think I'd necessarily get creeped out by the Rainbow flag, although, as a gay man I'd likely never fly one as I think it's silly) but, well, most.

Flags are a crowd control device, when it comes down to it.

So, the real anger is about these guys being controlled by slightly different symbolic devices than YOU like to be controlled by? Exactly how much power does this symbol have over you? What would someone waving an American Flag be able to get you to forget? or decide?

Since the swastika flags, these devices are mostly seen as something of a necessary prop in Europe. You have to have them or there's no differentiation between nations at conferences. The European flag isn't particularly made much of. It certainly isn't used to sway emotions and trick people like some other flags are.

:hide:

[sui generis]

1. no need to hide - it's just unthinking jibberjabber by busybodies

yeah I said that.

Do they really think that someone who earns 10,000 a year and used to earn near zero a year in Mexico really has the time or inclination or NATIONALIST fervor to be concerned with Flag Statutes, History of the Use of the Flag and What Flags Mean To Uppity White People?

I would roll my eyes but even that's not worth the effort.

[baby_mouse]

52. What gets me is how irrelevant it is.

The bandwidth wasted on this issue... Can't complain, I s'pose, I'm contributing

[dogday]

2. See My Post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=781990&mesg_id=784430

[baby_mouse]

3. Concur.

:beer:

[Inland]

4. I just think it's a mixed message, or off message.

If it's a march about immigration, and specifically to let more people live in America, then flying a Mexican flag is inconsistent. Pride in being Mexican doesn't have anything to do with wanting to live, or wanting to be allowed to live, in America.

Rather, it seems like an ad for a guest worker program, where immigrants would work IN America but not BE Americans, and eventually return back to "their" home when we were done exploiting them.

In truth, it seems to be a symptom of conflating immigration control with racism. If racism is immigration control, then the antithesis is racial pride. But both racism and racial pride are irrelevant to a rational discussion of immigration, although there are plenty of threads even on DU that presume differently, and the Mexican flag wavers seem to be making the same mistake.

[Bridget Burke]

23. Plenty of loyal, native born Americans are proud of their Mexican roots.

And those swallowing the Republican lie about the Immigration !!!CRISIS!!! include a few ignorant, racist xenophobes.

[Inland]

33. Sure. But it's a march for immigration into the US.

What does pride in roots have to do with immigrating into the US? Nothing, except to the extent that someone is confused into accepting the immigration debate as being entirely about racism. See, if the opposition to immigration is racism, then the antithesis is racial pride. But two irrelevancies don't make a right.

[Bridget Burke]

37. The march is also against idiot racist xenophobes.

Some people can send more than one message at a time. Most of us can understand.

Only the feeble minded squawk about "mixed messages." I'm sure Bush was really confused.

[Inland]

39. They did send more than one. Mixed ones.

It's only a single message if somebody pretends the entire debate over immigration is an issue of racism and xenophobia. Only then does a statement of racial pride in an immigration march make a lick of sense. But of course, all messages make sense to SOMEBODY, and now that I think of it, the mexican flag made sense to the racists and xenophobes as well. This one was mixed for those of us who don't feel that the debate over immigration begins and ends with accusations of racism.

[Cleita]

47. So if it's not about the "R", word, explain to us what it's about.

I have turned every reason here over and over, trying to look at the logic behind it and still I end up at square one, the R word.

[Inland]

53. I'm not sure what you think "it" is.

Here's a thread, which, of course, died because nobody got accused of racism.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2537919&mesg_id=2537919

[Deja Q]

5. I'd love to see you wave a big US flag in the middle of protest in France.

My suspicious is that most of the French watching would feel the same way many Americans are...

It's no different, regardless of country. If you emigrate to another country, you're basically saying "piss off" to the country you're leaving and putting allegiance into the country you CHOOSE to move to.

It's as simple as that.

Without something to look up to, what point is there?

THAT is why people come to America. Our country is still by and large better.

But, as I've said time and time again, to leave your old country, come to America and become a citizen, then to wave the flag of the country you used to live in is disgraceful to everybody involved.

I'm not against immigration. I'm against false loyalty.

And, again, it works both ways. It's just the same if an American leaves to go to ______. The ____ans wouldn't like it if an American moved to their country and started waving the American flag. Especially in this day and age!\

And maybe I'm all wrong, I don't know anymore.

[LostinVA]

12. If you're asked: "Whom do you love? Your mother or your father?"

Why must you only choose one? Why can't you say, "I love them both. I care about them both. For different reasons."

When you emigrate, you aren't necessarily telling the other country to "piss off." Talk to some immigrants. Many love the country of their birth, and hated to leave... but had to for econom,ic, political, etc. reasons. Many Jews loved Germany, were proud to be Germany, but were forced to leave (if they were lucky enough to get out!). My GGF came to the US from Sicily in 1915. Why? Because he was an illiterate laborer, and his brother had moved here and opened a barbershop. But he loved his homeland until the day he died, just as he loved the US. When he died, he was buried with both a folded Italian flag and a folded USA flag. That's not saying piss off. All of his sons served in WWII, and one sleeps forever in the green fields of France. Do you think he told the US to piss off?

It has nothing to do with false loyalty or allegiance -- it's about pride of heritage. Nothing wrong with that. It's why we Irish-Americans wear green on March 17. How can you say it's disgraceful for these AMERICAN teenagers to wave the flag of their heritage? Then arrest me, because I fly the Irish flag outside of my home.

I don't need some false idol of nationalism to look up to. I already have a real of pride to admire: the Constitution.

So much of this argument against HISPANIC "illegals" (I HATE that term! They are PEOPLE!) is very much rooted in nationalism and thinly-veiled racism. This problem will NEVER be solved until people can get past those two things.

[baby_mouse]

44. .....crickets.....

I think we're losing.

Applause from ME, at least, sir. Certain people seem to be shedding quantities of brain cells over this one.

[LostinVA]

79. It's ma'am, but you';re quite welcome

[baby_mouse]

82. arg!

Sorry :blush:

[LostinVA]

97. That's okay!

[Cleita]

15. Excuse me but the American flag is usually raised in countries

we occupy. There is a famous statue of a flag raising in Iwo Jima in WWII. I'm sure the occupants weren't thrilled with that. American flags are flown all over the world in foreign countries by American ex-patriots. Americans have a strange double-standard. What they think is okay for them, isn't okay for everyone else.

On another note, I worked with a woman who took a vacation in France and she was upset that many of the French didn't speak English. I asked her if she thought she should speak French to French tourists here in the United States. I was told to shut up and that I was unpatriotic.

[baby_mouse]

19. Your cow-orker sounds like

A complete and utter fuckwit.

My sympathy.

[Cleita]

27. Unfortunately there are many of those fuckwits around.n/t

[Inland]

31. I'd like to see one waved in a march for immigration INTO France.

I'm sure that everyone there would be a little confused: "Now, you want to live in France, why are you flying an American flag"?

"But I still love America!"

"This march is to show you want to live in France, though. Shouldn't you fly a French flag to demonstrate you love France?"

"Why don't you French respect my American heritage?"

"Well, it's not that, we were just thinking you might show some love for France, since you are marching for the right to live here, and it seems timely......."

"But to do that would be to make concessions to the people who hate America".

"It also makes concessions to the people who love France. Just saying."

"But why should I make concesssions to people who love France?"

"I thought it was because you want to live here, and somehow an American flag says more that you want to live in America. I mean, I'm a little confused about what you want."

"I just told you, I want to live in France."

"But your flag would lead me to believe you want to live in America. I just don't understand your choices."

"Okay, here's the deal. The only reason why you won't let me into france is because you are anti American. So I counter that by showing my PRIDE in being American, and therefore I win the debate."

"But I don't think I'm anti American just because you can't live in France."

"Hah. How very 'french' of you to say that. Typical, le chavinisme".

[Cleita]

40. Well, if you've been watching what little overseas news we get.

The Muslim guest workers in European countries are doing exactly that for the same reason. They are born Europeans that are treated as an underclass with no rights and now they are demonstrating because of it, flags, signs and all and it's no different than what is happening here.

[Inland]

45. I'm not sure of your point.

If it's that guest workers don't have the same rights as citizens, it's true: that's by design, and I'm not for a guest worker program in the US for that reason.

[Cleita]

49. Well, undocumented workers have even less rights than

guest workers.

[Inland]

56. No doubt.

I don't want undocumented workers either, particularly if they are illegal, and that's going to be my position if there are open or restrictive rules on who can immigrate and who can work here.

[baby_mouse]

46. ? Hm ? Oh, yes.

And I imagine the reaction is much the same.

A pity, my original question seems to be drifting away...

[Cleita]

50. Thanks for the thread, but I'm going to have to back off before

I get alerted on a dozen times.

[baby_mouse]

55. Ciao, darling.

Cocktails some other time... :7

[Cleita]

57. Indeed!

:toast:

[Critters2]

88. And the French are reacting positively, are they?

Bien sur que non!

[TheBaldyMan]

58. with respect you are wrong about divided or false loyalty.

I am a Scot, born and bred, I have the accent and everything. For most of my adult life I have lived in England, the suggestion that I should start acting like an Englishman is nonsensical, I couldn't even if I tried.

I have been told to 'fuck off back to where I came from' several times, unfortunately it is precisely that kind of behavior I associate with the kind of pseudo-patriotic Englishmen that suggest that people who live in England should assimilate. It would involve being an ignorant, xenophobic, narrow-minded prick and I'd much rather NOT conform to their idea of what it means to be English.

If the niggardly comments about immigrants that I've read on the boards in the past few days are put forward as examples of being a 'good American' I am not surprised that some choose to identify with their parents country instead of the land of their birth.

[baby_mouse]

87. Errr...

Why do you want me to wave a big US flag in France? So that I can observe the same weirdness there that I can already see on this discussion board? Um, sorry, but I thought it would be reasonably clear from my post that I would think French flag-draping silly, and American flag-draping, and Mexican flag draping, as my post was not about nationalism, but was about *flags*. *Actual flags*, not the mess they make when they are waved around. Why do some people go all freaky when you wave a flag? You;ve answered someone else's question.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

106. Speaking as an Englishman,

I wouldn't have the slightest problem with seeing Americans moving in and flying American flags.

I don't think flags are quite as unimportant as the OP does - a flag is a message, and some messages are worth disagreeing with - but "I come from country X" is not an offensive one.

I strongly disagree that moving to a country or even applying for citizenship obliges one to feel loyalty to it. You are obliged to abide by its laws, nothing more. That's what freedom of movement means.

"False loyalty" is arguably a bad thing, depending on what you mean by it, but there's nothing false about flying the flag of the country you come from in the country you live in.

The claim that "your country is by and large better" is debatable at best. Better than what, and in what way? "A better place to live than most of South America, Africa or Asia", certainly. "A better place to live than anywhere else" or "morally superior to everywhere else" I would strongly debate.

[Ufomammut]

6. "A flag is a symbol, and I'll leave symbols to the symbol-minded"

~ George Carlin

[sui generis]

9. perfect

utterly perfect. If perfect had degrees that would be perfectest.

[LostinVA]

13. Agreed!

[baby_mouse]

16. Righto.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the content of that, it does seem appropriate to populate one's mind with SOME *useful* symbols, but I appreciate the sentiment.

[Don Claybrook]

7. I made the mistake of saying something similar in that big thread

I used the words "just a piece of cloth" and that's apparently not appreciated in some quarters. But you're right; it is just a piece of cloth, and it's meaning is variable. I'd say that right now, it's meaning is at a nadir, a low point. So I sure don't mind seeing a Mexican flag flying here. It's neuteral to me. It's the US flag that brings bad imagery with it.

[Ufomammut]

10. Ever hear Bill Hicks' flag gags?

[baby_mouse]

20. I have not but I suspect the resemble Eddie Izzard's? NT :-)

[Beelzebud]

21. My daddy died for that flag in Korea!

Gee thats funny, because my flag says it was MADE in Korea.


That one? :)

BTW Bill Hicks was a genius, and is even more relevant today than he was when he was alive. History repeats itself, I suppose.

[LostinVA]

14. Agreed again!

[mondo joe]

86. It is just a piece of cloth. So is the confederate flag.

And words are just words.

What all have in common is that they are symbols used to communicate.

I'd suggest the protestors are sending some very mixed messages. They shouldn't be surprised at a mixed response.

[wtmusic]

96. To some they're not just "pieces of cloth"

they *are* symbols, and powerful ones (usually those with a military background). They had a lot more significance when they identified armies in battle and friendly ships on the high seas.

[Cleita]

8. This is to smear them as anti-American I believe.

It used to be sneered that they spoke Spanish. *SHOCKING* :wow:

Waving the flags of other countries makes them look unpatriotic and unamerican. Skinner doesn't want us to use the word that describes what this is about, but I think you know.

My son-in-law raises the Irish flag on his flagpole on St. Patrick's Day. By this reasoning, I guess he shouldn't. Although I am an American citizen from birth, I was born in Chile and like to display the Chilean flag on September 18th, Chilean independence day. I guess I'm unpatriotic.

What a bunch of BS.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. We were protecting "the flag" when we helped Pinochet.

Not to mention a long list of other dictatators, murderers, and criminals that were "friends of America" during the (not so) cold war.

[Cleita]

29. Well, that flag was there before Pinnochet. Up until then,

Chile had a reputation of being an unbroken democracy from the time they kicked Spain out. It was one of the few Latin American countries that didn't have revolutions, uprisings and dictatorships, until Henry Kissinger under Richard Nixon helped Pinnochet into power and made democracy an empty word.

[baby_mouse]

25. It's all starting to get really quite silly.

QUITE silly.

Numerous people on these threads are among those whom otherwise I have held in high regard. I'm not sure I can continue to do so after this.

[LostinVA]

32. I know... I've been feeling the same way

[LostinVA]

30. I believe that's exactly what it is -- and it's been worked for 150 years

This is literally almost textbook Bircher rhetoric.... distressing to see it on DU.

[Cleita]

38. Bircher rhetoric.

I forgot about that. It's nice to have a phrase to describe it. I just know how I feel about these BS talking points, now I can say why.

[LostinVA]

78. That's what it is -- I studied them rather in depth in college

And this is almost textbook... except words like "spic" and "wetback" aren't being used.... rather "illegals."

[Cleita]

95. The latest derogatory term is "beaners". n/t

[LostinVA]

98. Hmmmm... splendid

[hwmnbn]

11. Flags are nothing but ......

international gang symbols/colors. Most countries are nothing but your average street gang on steroids. They protect their turf, eliminate rival businesses, protect it's members, demand allegiance and dues from them (taxes), make their own unique set of laws and traditions, and establish their own hierarchy, etc.

The US is the most powerful street gang on earth.

[baby_mouse]

18. All a bit of a racket, isn't it?

I wonder how much longer it can last.

[noonwitch]

22. That's not true

Flags represent the people of a nation. Our flag has great symbolic meaning to many americans-immigrants who came from some war-torn nation, soldiers who fought under it, those of us who grew up flying them in front of our houses on holidays, and so on.

They are not to be worshipped, however, and that is where some go wrong because instead of patriotism, it becomes a kind of idolatry.

You have a point, in a way, but you are only looking at it from a negative viewpoint. If I were an Iraqi, I might feel differently about the american flag. But I'm not.

[hwmnbn]

118. I've just given nations .....

the same status and value as street gangs. You are assigning the negativity. Patriotism is the same type of feeling as gang loyalty. Your countrymen are your "homies"

When you "swear allegiance" that means you will support to the death. You only swear that deathly allegiance to a country, a religion, or gangs like the mafia, Crips, or Bloods.

My point is that all nations and street gangs serve the exact same functions for its members, the only difference is the size of the group and the scale of the weapons.

In the rarefied air of altruism, or in the stench of political spin, your points are valid. In our current political world, I'm afraid my points are true. Today, we are the baddest gang of all not because of our high ideals, but because of our weaponry.

The chimp and his minions have forfeited our moral high ground. It's going to be very hard regaining it.

[Marie26]

114. Interesting perspective

There's some truth in that.

[TahitiNut]

24. I'm waiting to see someone burn a Mexican flag.

I think the DU reactions would be a case study in exploding heads.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[baby_mouse]

26. The suspense is terrible!

"... I hope it lasts..."

[TahitiNut]

60. Yep. Sure is WIlde.

:silly: :popcorn:

"In America the young are always ready to give to those who are older than themselves the full benefits of their inexperience."
"Some of these people need ten years of therapy ..." :rofl:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. Maybe congress will pass a law against it..Hillary will sponsor it.

[hwmnbn]

119. Maybe someone from freeperville .....

already has. I know anti-immigrant, anti-Mexican feelings are out there just waiting to be exploited politically. We can watch the rhetoric from the repugs and the RW spin machine to foment these feelings.

I imagine it may get ugly before this issue is settled. :cry:

[Bridget Burke]

34. I can get angry at misuse of the flag....

Who has done more harm to the US? A couple of Mexican-American teenagers or this son of privilege?

[LostinVA]

35. That really IS disrespecting the flag...

[baby_mouse]

36. Good evening, and welcome to the thread!

Cocktails to YOU darling, MWAH!

[Cleita]

42. Good one! n/t

[dogday]

51. That is what I have been posting all day

I am more afraid of this guy waving our flag in the name of freedom then I am of these kids speaking their mind...

[misternormal]

41. One would hope...

That if one had to die for something it would be for the ideology that the flag represents... not the flag itself...

[baby_mouse]

48. Quite. Pity there seems to be more space for a flag than any ideas inside

some people's skulls.

[TheBaldyMan]

43. I wonder what ticks off folk most ? Is it Mexican-Americans waving

the Mexico flag or a Texican wrapping himself in the American one ?

[Cleita]

54. The Texicans do get a lot of crap for that don't they?

If those protestors had marched with an American flag along with the Mexican flag, they still would have been criticized I'm afraid.

[TheBaldyMan]

59. sry I should have said the "Texican" in the WH

I apologise for any misunderstanding I have caused

[Cleita]

61. He's not a Texican, is he? When I lived in Texas Texicans

were Americans of Mexican descent. That's what I thought you were talking about. Many did wear baseball caps with little American flags on them and the white Texans looked down their nose at them, like they shouldn't defile the flag or something. There was a whole dress code among the white ranchers of what you didn't wear because Mexicans did.

[TheBaldyMan]

63. I didn't know that,

I'm sorry, being British I am not that knowledgable about American culture. I thought a Texican was what Texans called themselves when Texas was an independant state. IIRC it took in New Mexico and most of Arizona.

I shouldn't pay so much attention to John Wayne films.

[Bridget Burke]

66. "Texian" was used before annexation...

From the Texas Handbook--everything you could possibly want to know about Texas:

www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/TT/pft5.html

The Tejanos were & are Texans with Mexican/Spanish roots. Some fought against Santa Ana with the Texians, but were not treated well afterwards.

[Garbo 2004]

73. In LA they did. Lots of US flags, but that's not what some folks chose

to notice, apparently.

See LA Times picture gallery: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-immigration26-pg,0,5251069.photogallery?index=3 (Registration I think is required to view LA Times site. Maybe http://www.bugmenot.com/ has a working login.)

[Bridget Burke]

75. Good picture. I saw it without registering.

Caption: "Demonstrators hold signs signalling supports for the sons of immigrants that are in the military."

[Marie26]

122. Flags of an invading army (long post)

There have been many pictures of immigrants peacefully protesting, asking for change, & fighting to protect their rights in the best spirit of social activism. But people don't seen to care about that; all they focus on is THE FLAG. OMG - why are they waving a Mexican flag??!! Ahhhggg! This just baffled me - why is that so important? But I've been thinking about this & I think I understand why people are so obsessed w/the flags. It has to do w/the conceptual framework you're using to structure the debate.

Flags are used for patriotism, but they are also used for battle - when the armies of one nation squares off against the armies of another for control. Flags help you know where "your soldiers" are & also where the enemy's troops are. People are reacting this way because, in some sense, they see immigrants as an enemy "invading army". Immigrants are not US residents, but part of an foreign "enemy". In this framework, the various comments start to make sense. Ex. - They don't want to assimilate, they want to "take over", they want to "annex" the Southwest to Mexico, they want the US to "become" Mexico, they're "invading" the US, they want to "occupy" the US. When people see the Mexican flag in huge protests, it immediately triggers these anxieties - that a huge enemy army of "they" is trying to conquer "us". So of course it's a "mixed message" to display both Mexican & US flags - in the same way it'd be a "mixed message" for someone to display both British & German flags during WWII. We're at war, here. This doesn't make sense on a rational level, but on the tribal level that flags represent, it makes perfect sense.

It's sort of ironic that Americans are having these anxieties at the same time that we ourselves have invaded & occupied another nation in Iraq. I think that makes most Americans uneasy on some level & we're sensitive to the issues of imposing control, invasion, & occupation. We will tend to interpret things like immigration in a similar framework. We project our desire to "invade" & "conquer" a land onto immigrants who only want to live in it. (Thus, the uproar over raising the Mexican flag over the US) In the backs of our minds, we know we invaded & occupied parts of Mexico, as well. So, when we see the display of Mexican flags, it makes us feel like the Mexicans are "reclaiming" territory from the US; in the same way that the insurgency is now "reclaiming" Iraq from US control. Control is slipping out of our fingers against both insurgents in Iraq, & immigrants in the US. We NEED to re-establish control & defeat these enemy insurgencies - even if we have to deport 11 million immigrants to do it. I think that America is trying to exorcise its demons over the Iraq War by displacing that anger & insecurity onto Latino immigrants. The two issues parallel rather nicely - as we lose control to dark-skinned people in one country, we becoming increasingly worried about losing control to dark-skinned people in the USA.

I know there are valid reasons for opposing illegal immigration, etc., but I'm just talking about how these things operate on a psychological level. On a psychological level, Americans perceive immigrants displaying flags as an invading enemy that must be defeated, before they can defeat us. Someone has said before that the US is using classic defense mechanisms - denial, projection, displacement, to avoid facing the reality of the situation we are now in. IMO, the recent uproar against immigrants is another example of this. The question now is how far we're willing to go down the rabbit hole until we can wake up.

[LostinVA]

99. The latter, I betcha

[ThoughtCriminal]

62. This - from people who fly Confederate Flags?

:eyes:

[Inland]

68. Which I have a huge problem with!

Come to think of it, more of a problem than just about anything. It's like flying the Nazi or Rising Sun, simply because it is the flag of a battle against the US or at least for an unforgivably bad cause! IMO.

[Marie26]

70. Me too

I have a cousin that proudly flies the Confederate Flag outside his house & named his first daughter "Bonnie Blue." (This is in Ohio, not even the South). Talk about taking flag worship to an extreme!

[mondo joe]

85. I have a problem with the confederate flag too.

So do a lot of dems.

[DanCa]

64. Flag flag everywhere a flag

blocking the scenery ruinning my mind. Do this don't do that can't you see the flag. On retrospect the words sign, sign, everywhere a sign were much better lyrics. :D Sorry I am under heavy medication.

[Minnesota Libra]

65. Here, this explains it much better than I ever could....................

..................pay special attention to the second paragraph.....

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
--Theodore Roosevelt, 1919

[Ms. Clio]

69. Ah, yes, good old Teddy the social Darwinist

The historical context for that quote is the incredible xenophobia and "100% Americanism" that permeated World War I. Why you think it is of any relevance to this modern debate is mystifying. Except perhaps that those attitudes did lead to a virtual cut-off of all immigration from southern and eastern Europe by 1921 and 1924, back when Italians and Poles and Russian Jews were considered "undesirables" and "non-whites" who stole American jobs.

[Bridget Burke]

71. Teddy was pretty good for a Republican....

Today's Right Wing makes much of this quotation. They'd rather forget Teddy the Trust-Buster or Teddy the Conservationist. I think Lou Dobbs used this one recently.

But Teddy was talking loudly here & waving his little stick. Understandable, since this appeared in a letter written 3 days before he died. The phrase "any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile" reflects the attitude of the time--but hardly reflects our relationship with Mexico. (San Antonio, founded by the Spanish, was enriched by many German immigrants. Until WWI, street signs were in 3 languages: English, German & Spanish. )

I put up the Irish Flag avatar just before St Patrick's day. I think I'll keep it for a while.

[Inland]

72. Here's what I think about loyalty and allegiance.

In a rough fashion. I'm still thinking about it.

I as an individual owe Americans something that I don't owe people of other nations. Either by an accident of history or some deeper cause, I and my other Americans have ended up stuck with each other. Their kids are going to die fighting to defend me and mine. My taxes are going to support their grandparents. We have a political process between and among ourselves and promise to abide by the results, within reason. My choices and their choices make our town, our state, and our country for better or for worse.

Either by an accident of history or some deeper cause, people of other nations don't feel the same about me and I don't feel the same about them as we do about our own countrymen. I don't think that means only one allegiance, or that nobody can care about foreigners. We have greater allegiances and do care, but it's different. There's a community bound together and the future is going to be made, together, in some way in the US that is not shared. The people of New Orleans have a demand, and a response, that the people of Aceh do not have. The failure to meet that need is a shame for the entire nation in a way that no other failure is. "Americans need our help" should be enough for Americans.

I don't even know if it's about loyalty, or the sole loyalty, or one allegiance. But it's the way it is, and the way I want it to be until the world changes and there's a larger community. Certainly, a mexican flag doesn't mean a larger community, just a different community, a Mexican community, one that is fine and good but not mine, not the way the US is.

Just thinking out loud.

[Bridget Burke]

74. Hey, I've got a US flag at home.

It's the one my father got for dying in the line of duty. But the Irish flag also means something to me.

As a Texan, I've also got a special feeling for the Mexican flag. Quite a few good Americans proudly fly it in addition to the Red, White & Blue. Anyone whose understanding of Texas history & culture goes deeper than John Wayne's "Alamo" knows how much Texas owes Mexico.

I don't necessarily care less for someone who flies another flag--whether it reflects their current nationality or their roots. And I don't necessarily care more for someone who wraps themselves in the Old RW&B to support their cold & rigid beliefs.

[Inland]

81. Nothing I said has much to do with flag flying.

Most flag flying isn't inconsistent with what I said at all.

But there's a march that has to do with who is going to join me as an American, about who I am going to owe something to and about who I am going to make demands in the manner I described.

In that context, there appears a US flag upside down and under a Mexican flag. Given the context, it's fair to note the the disparity between that commitment I discussed and the symbolism. That doesn't seem all that rigid to me. Outside of the context of the specific protest and the juxtaposition to the American flag, I don't have a problem with flags because they don't work the same symbolism. It's not the flag. It's the package.

So really, there isn't any need to raise St. Patricks Day, Texas, or whatever is flying over an amusement park in Georgia, just as I don't have to raise a confederate flag over the state house.

[Bridget Burke]

127. So--ONE picture upset you.

These folks can join ME as an American. Are you sure they really want to join YOU?

[countryjake]

80. That's one of the most un-democratic quotes ever uttered.

Since when is a nation that we've signed trade pacts with and do business with daily, considered a "hostile nation"? So the Mexican flag is the symbol of our enemies, now? When did that happen? Do they have WMDs down there, too?

There is no official language in this country for very good reasons, one being that a large minority of citizens is more familiar with a language that the majority is not. Hopefully, problems of communication will improve, as the desire to actually speak with neighbors in your town and children in your schools and fellow workers, increases.

The American flag has become a thing to be ashamed of during the past four years and I certainly don't blame anyone for preferring not to display it. I also don't consider that a requirement of anyone who lives here.

This week's marches were ones of solidarity with immigrants, who will be unjustly punished by an extreme, right-wing measure that is about to be shoved thru Congress. They were demonstrations against attacks on simple human rights in this democracy, protesting the imminent discrimination that will be sure to follow, (directed at ALL of Hispanic heritage, whether they be citizens or not) should the Republicans succeed at passing this bill.

The Mexican flag was waved. Live with it! Anyone who judges a person by the colors they display must surely be so bigoted, that they are beyond any hope or reason. Those types of people do not represent the rights of any true Democracy. It is our duty as Americans to confront such attitudes wherever they threaten the freedoms of our country by discriminating against anyone who lives here! I feel nothing but pride for those thousands of courageous marching working people, bringing fear and trembling to the bastards who oppress them!

[Minnesota Libra]

90. Of course it's "un-democratic" it requires a tad bit of loyalty. nt

[countryjake]

92. I would hope most Americans are loyal to democratic principles...

first and foremost. Do you consider flag-waving one of them?

[Minnesota Libra]

93. Honoring OUR FLAG and following OUR LAWS is indeed.......

.....democratic principles. As I keep saying the illegal alien issue is the only issue I consistently disagree with liberals on - other than this one issue I am very liberal - always have been and always will be.

[LostinVA]

100. Most of the people being slammed aren't "Illegals"

They are US citizens... but all we here is all this Bircher rhetoric telling them to go home, disloyalty, whatever. It's sickening.

At one time the US flag may have stood for something noble... but now it is used as a cudgel to toe the line. The hell with that. I can NOT be forced to adhere to some outdated, xenophobic sense of nationalism. It never, ever bodes well when a country starts doing this: Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, etc.

I refuse to stand for the flag because I think such actions are inherently undemocratic. Forcing on eto public declaim "loyalty" is a loyalty oath. I refuse that on moral, political, and spiritul grounds, much as I will never swear an oath on a Bible. If you want to, that's fine. That is definitely your right. But please also respect my beliefs, as you would someone with another set of spiritual beliefs.

And, the "illegal" problem has been here for decades -- it's just the perfect election year wedge issue... that's the ONLY reason why it's being ADVERTISED so much.

[countryjake]

101. I know of no law that demands we honor a piece of cloth, ROTF!

I spit on that rag before I honor the damn thing and I will fight for my right as an American and my guarantee of that freedom to do so!

It's a piece of material, that's all. A piece of cloth that represents different things to different Americans. It's a symbol of tyranny and oppression in much of the world, today.

[LostinVA]

104. Thank you -- their belief is not my belief

I am a citizen od the USA... not chattel.

[Inland]

107. Lot of mixing and matching in there.

Mexico isn't a hostile country. But it's a different country. Trade pacts, peace, and open borders don't mean open immigration. It doesn't mean that we have to fight agaisnt discrimination against "anyone who lives here", because there's always a good reason to discriminate between citizens and legal residents and illegal aliens.

[countryjake]

115. Wrong! I fight discrimination directed at any human being...

and, most assuredly, I will do it when my own government proposes to pass a Bill that will advocate, judicate, and encourage its citizens to discriminate against one whole segment of Americans!

There's no mixing or matching, when people march in protest of a bill that would promote racism, I would think any moral person would support them.

Tell me, how can you distinguish which of those protesters should or shouldn't be "discriminated" against?

[Inland]

116. Illegals aren't Americans.

They're just IN America.

How can I distinguish between protesters? I'm not distinguishing between protesters. I'm distinguishing between legal and illegal, whether protesting or not. I'm distinguishing between Americans and non Americans.

Don't you make those same distinctions?

[countryjake]

121. Nope, & I shudder to think the day might come when that would happen!

I'll ask you again, how, exactly, does one tell an American from a non-American?

[Inland]

123. Don't you make the distinction?

I guess I don't know if you really want to be able to tell one from the other, or if you don't think there should be a distinction.

So how about it? Should there be a distinction? Let me know by the general election who exactly should be casting votes.

[countryjake]

125. I already answered your question...

how about answering mine?


How, exactly, does one tell an American from a non-American?

I could care less, you're the one who wants to discriminate!

[Name removed]

126. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

124. How do you tell?

Well as far as I know, employers have a set of criteria they can require that proves citizenship - I've provided them several times.

[baby_mouse]

83. Wow!

I wonder what TEDDY would have made of rainbow flags.

[Critters2]

91. When immigrants become citizens, they take an oath

forswearing allegiance to foreign powers. I keep hearing they want to become citizens. This might be a good time to start practicing that oath. That is, if they really want to take it someday.

[LostinVA]

103. Waving a Mexican flag is NOT the same thing as swearing allegiance to

a foreign power. Mighty big leap there. I fly an Irish flag most of the time -- I don't swear allegiance to Ireland. I would never swear allegiance to ANY country... again, it's not democratic. Most of these people you're criticizing are ALREADY American citizens!

Seriously, do you REALLY believe what you just wrote? Because, if you do... that si not the same thing as saying Mexican laborers are hurting us economically, etc. It is THE SAME EXACT argument used against: the Germans, the Irish, ALL CATHOLICS (including JFK), the Italians, etc. It is xenophobic. It is not progressive.

[Critters2]

112. In which political rally have you flown an Irish flag...

not a St. Pat's Parade, a POLITICAL rally? It makes no sense, when trying to influence American policies, to fly the flag of another nation.

[LostinVA]

113. People do it ALL THE TIME

I've seen US flags and flags of other nations at anti-war protests... big frigging deal.

Again, it doesn't make a difference, because US citizens are allowed to express their FReedom of speech. YOu don't like it? Too frigging bad. I don't like the Klan being allowed to march. IT sickens me. Too frigging bad.

You are going from thread to thread spreading very unprogressive rhetoric -- you're by far not the only one, but you are one I recognize.

And, just as you have a right to your opinion, I have a right to NOT pollute myself with racist, xenophobic, anti-democratic., anti- American crap like this.

Ignore.

Have fun stomping down those nasty unamerican Hispanic CITIZENS... because you've passed from illegal immigration to a far, far nastier place now. For shame.

[countryjake]

120. Still asking that question?

I'm still waiting for your response here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=745050&mesg_id=755332

Why do you bring things up, if you have no intention of carrying on a decent debate?

Those protesters are mad as hell that a Republican Bill, which attacks every single person in this country who is of Mexican heritage, citizens and non-citizens, alike, has been passed thru a legislative body of this nation! The conservative, right-wing would like to make LAW a bill that promotes racism and encourages discrimination against every Brown person in our land!

I would suggest the demonstrations would be much more effective if we added the flags of all the nations of both Central and South America...every country where the United States has caused displacement of their citizens and perpetuated poverty.

Our NAFTA, CAFTA, FTAA (Amer Agri-business) are what brought utter desperation to the Western Hemisphere and forced many people to become "illegal" in the first place!

[Marie26]

67. God knows

I'm born & bred American - and I don't get it. To me, it shows our vulnerability to being influenced & manipulated by symbols. The right-wing has understood this for a long time, which is why they drape Bush, Cheney & Fox News w/flags all over the place. Talk about disrespect!

[baby_mouse]

89. I think it's freaky and weird. It's like the Twilight Zone.

All you have to do to get people to do what you want is wave around an appropriately coloured piece of cloth.

What you say and DO are somehow secondary...


Brrrrr...!

[Marie26]

108. Exactly

It's like the Twilight Zone. It's felt like that for awhile & I think this episode is an example of the way people are sort of unconsciously expressing the creeping fascism that is taking over this country. (Sorry if I offend anyone). Symbolism, authority & national superiority are the staples of such systems. Sort of brings to mind - "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

[Strelnikov_]

76. "Damn Your Flag! Damn All Flags! It's Too Late In The World For Flags"

Kind of over-acted, but seems appropriate now.

[Hobarticus]

94. What from? n/t

[Strelnikov_]

105. "The Sand Pebbles", Near The End, When They Went To Rescue

the missionaries at China Light.

Jameson: "And now they are coming for me. Because of you and your blind pride -- Damn your flag! Damn all flags!
It's too late in the world for flags!"

[Hobarticus]

110. Ah yes, no wonder I recognized it...

Excellent movie.

[Bake]

77. Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore

It's already overcrowded from your dirty little war
Now Jesus don't like killin' no matter what the reason's for
And your flag decal wn't get you into heaven anymore.

John Prine

And it's STILL true.

Bake

[countryjake]

84. Right On!

My favorite songwriter!

[elehhhhna]

102. "Do you have a flaaaag?" Eddie Izzard

[tjwash]

109. *LOL* Well you bloody well can't be a country without a flaaaag now.

And you have no written laws of succesion either huh? Hmm, interesting....

I love his standup routine.:hi:

[hippywife]

111. Thanx, baby_mouse!

Flags are a crowd control device, when it comes down to it.

I couldn't agree more. It seems that there are a whole bunch of people here letting this control their thought processes and their capacity for compassion and humanity.

Focus people! This issue may be tearing a divide in the Repub party but some of you are letting it get the better of you, too! Let's keep our eyes on what's still important here!

[tyedyeto]

117. Where did all those protesting the cartoons get Dutch flags?

I don't really care but the organization had to be there at some point.

[Bridget Burke]

128. Good organization leads to effective protests.

Whether we agree with the protest or not, we can pick up a few hints about OUR next protest.

[Neil Lisst]

129. dupe

[Neil Lisst]

130. No object should be worshipped, flags included.

The whole notion of hating over flags is soooooooo 18th century!

Our flag is a symbol, and the cloth is not more important than the value our country guarantees, one of which is the right to say "screw the flag."


Here's my thoughts on where we're headed with this kind of slavish worship of symbols ...