"people who work hard will succeed".

[Deja Q]

Hmmm. What a load.

Not to be cynical, but when's the last time you bought a product somebody worked hard to make?

Cheap assembly line fluff that readily breaks down is not a product of hard work.

A fabric garment that develops holes after two times in the washing machine is not a product of hard work.

Cheap help talk-from-a-cue-sheet-"customer support" person is not hard work. Except for the caller who has to struggle not only with technical jargon, but often a dialect or inflection they can't understand. and then pay some ungodly amount of money for such "service". Microsoft alone charges $35 a pop. :wow: Wow, $35 to go through their own cheaply-made product by people who preferred fast products over quality products, right from the ground up...

Even large chains who pay their workers a pittance get pissed on by irate consumers. One common entity is known as the "geek squad". Big corporations destroying smaller companies for a cheap buck and diluting a solid industry because, as we all know, consumers are nothing more than walking wallets whose time is not our priority. (do I know some stories... too right they're angry.)

Hard work pleases other people because they are getting their money's worth. Who do you know that's feeling pleased these days?

So, forgive me "Libertarians", there comes a point where we really are a society and interacting with each other does more help than hurt. These days we're so dog-eat-dog that we've seen how this "objectivism" is a load of poo. Especially when you cry because your job just got lost. Wake up already.

[AnnieBW]

1. As Long As Their Jobs Aren't Outsourced

To India or China, where the employees can work harder for less pay.

[NMDemDist2]

2. I did a very similar rant earlier this week

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/AZDemDist6/13

exactly!
Posted by AZDemDist6
Sat Mar 25th 2006, 10:35 PM
that is exactly the point. and we used to pay our hard earned wages for products made with pride by our neighbors and we didn't toss them when they broke (which they rarely did) we had them repaired and we cared for them and handed them down to our children.

pieces and parts of our lives that knit our communities together with our labor and with our interdependence. we would no more make a shoddy product for our neighbor as we would feed our family poison.

it was the pride and strength that built our homes, families, communities and nation.

how far we have fallen that we'll allow our neighbors lose their livelyhood so we can have cheap foreign doo dads that clutter our lives and add nothing to our spirits. we turn our backs on community and kill our country with every piece of crap from WallyMart while our Chinese brethren poison their land and water in the chase to make it for us.

Criminal.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. Now That Was A Really Good Read.

I missed it when you originally posted it, but it is a very very good sentiment. It even helped me understand the OP's point more, which at first I think I had a hard time understanding. I almost wish I could recommend this post LOL It's very true in it's accuracy.

[NMDemDist2]

13. I swear OMC

:rofl:

we really do show up in the same places a lot don't we?


we have to stop meeting like this, Mr Ketchup and Mrs MindCrime are getting suspicious!!!



:hi: and thanks for your kind words :blush:

[Deja Q]

7. Thank you for posting that link!

An excellent read indeed. :thumbsup:

[NMDemDist2]

10. thanks HT!

your praise means a lot :blush:

[KAZ]

8. Perfectly put. Please forgive me if I send this to others.

I know a lot of people who need to read this.

[NMDemDist2]

9. help yourself! and thanks n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

3. Wait. Is This About Social Bonding, Work Ethic or Outsourcing?

What was the real point you were trying to make? I thought I was following you, but then it took a few twists and turns that made me lose context of your intent.

For the record though, there are millions of people that work hard, tons of products that are hard to manufacture and tons of people pleased with the outcome of a service provided by someone working hard. Yes, interacting with each other socially does help. Yes, some will cry when their jobs are lost.

That's all I can provide based on what I think you were saying.

[Deja Q]

12. Okay

I did mash a few things together, yes.

Though my final rant was against the Libertarian twits who think it's all okay - until they personally are affected. Oh, then it's wrong. Libertarians also don't see the reality that we are all communal, or prefer to think it is possible to separate the social aspects from the "hard work" aspects. Either way, they're brainwashed and it's almost fun to hear them spin reality into their warped ways of thinking. Which also includes such garbage as how making cheaply made products comes from socialism when, in reality, they are really speaking against the darker side of capitalism but pasting the name "socialism" over the real label so they themselves feel better...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. Thanks For The Clarification.

I got ya now. I wasn't sure how to respond originally. My brain's been reallllllly friggin burnt lately though (from literally working my ass off), so I must admit I'm not grasping things as instanteously as I normaly would. :)

[Deja Q]

35. Same here.

Been a long day.

[pitohui]

5. sometimes yes, sometimes no

you can work hard at something that doesn't pay v. well, for instance, john o'neil, who has identified more birds than any living ornithologists worked unpaid for lsu for 20 years

20 years!

not sure how he paid the bills, maybe by sale of his art, i really don't know

but you can do top work, valuable work, and not be paid because our values as a society would rather dump $$$ on crap like eternal hot and cold wars that generate easy money for defense corporations

so you can work hard, go to the top, and still not "succeed" by any capitalist measure

indeed, people who "succeed" are often doing things that should not be done -- the developer who earns millions turning wetlands into mcmansions is not doing worthwhile work but he is richly rewarded, the car dealership owner who earns enough to buy a sports team is not really contributing anything to society that wouldn't be there if he had never lived

i don't know what to tell you, toad

libertarians are idiots and the idea that merit is rewarded financially in accordance w. your actions is clearly a silly one

so what else is new?

sometimes the only way self-proclaimed libertarians figure it out is to spend 30 yrs working hard and still have nothing, then finally finally they may get a clue

if merit were the measure of how we are rewarded, * would not be president

so much of life is chance, so we must be kind to one another

[bliss_eternal]

6. (giggles...)

...he said "poo."

:spray:

[Selatius]

11. It's capitalist propaganda crap. Utter garbage.

I have seen people work so damn hard their entire lives, and many never end up having a comfortable life despite the effort they put forth with two or more jobs, yet there are those who rose to wealth and positions of power who barely worked at all yet were simply born into a wealthy family with many connections.

You haven't known want, and you haven't known need until you work two jobs at 5 to 7 dollars an hour for 60, 70, or even 80 hours a week just to keep yourself from being buried by the exhorbitant health insurance costs, the costs of utilities, credit card payments if any, and the rising cost of food due to gas prices. Nevermind car insurance or gas prices themselves. While you're busy trying to do that, why don't you try to raise a happy family in a poverty-stricken neighborhood full of crime and gang wars as a result of the illegal drug trade?

Why don't they move out? Because they are too poor to do so! If they weren't so poor, don't you think they would've been able to afford the money needed to escape Hurricane Katrina?

There are people in this country who put forth more effort than their bosses ever did, yet it is the bosses who get most of the rewards, and the lowly worker gets shit for compensation. This entire society is built on the blood, sweat, and tears of its workers, YET IT IS THE PEOPLE AT THE TOP OF THE PYRAMID WHO REAP THE FRUITS OF THEIR LABOR.

To be fair, people do make it to the top, but to say that the game is stacked in favor of the little man is bullshit. If rewards were tied to how hard people worked, then the working poor in this country should be the best off, but it's not.

[Deja Q]

14. Exactly. That was my previous job...

and not just 80 hour weeks at $7/hr, there were NO benefits of any kind and the boss, a Democrat supposedly, was the biggest pile of filth. (even to this day he scares the crap out of me and I've not worked there for 10 years now. Still, from what I heard he did realize that, despite the odd mistake that no other employer found to be a big issue, I was one of his best employees (only one was better and he'd left shortly after too.))

And you're right. Labor generates all wealth.

[NMDemDist2]

15. too true, glad you posted this

if someone hadn't come along I would have said the same thing.

This isn't the 50's anymore when hard work was rewarded by the good possiblity of a reasonably comfortable life. not so today.

[Deja Q]

16. Imagine if Archie Bunker was alive today and still age 40...

I'd rather not... because Archie would be, amongst other things, homeless.

[NMDemDist2]

19. he is

he's alive and living in a single wide in the south working odd jobs now that the mill/factory/mine is closed and living on Edith's wages from WalMart or the Stop N Go

pitiful isn't it?

[KAZ]

20. Another great post. And Hypno, as an ex-libertarian...

... who has awoken, thanks.

[Che Fan]

24. the working poor in this country should be the best off, but it's not.

So long as the rich keep getting richer, everything will be ok. Pigs.

[harpo]

17. I've worked hard all my life, I feel I am successful, is something wrong?

I buy products all the time that folks worked hard to make.

You are attacking the "assembly line fluff"...not sure what that is...cars?

Fabric which develops holes after 2 washes...where you buying your clothes? That doesn't happen to me.

You want to take a shot at helping someone solve a technical problem? Forget the queue sheet...have a top 100 company calling you daily to discuss architecture design plans. Sure home users end up in India/China/Canada...but most home users end up with the same issues so scripts are common to get them to the right area/folks.

I do not condone the outsourcing though, so we have common ground there I think :)


I refuse to feel guilty for working hard and being successful!!!

[NMDemDist2]

22. guilt isn't necessary

and congratulations!

unfortunately many work very hard and can't get a break, it's just the way of the world unfortunately

[The Straight Story]

21. Actually, that is how to succeed

Unless you are saying the way to do so is to not work hard :)

I will use myself as an example.

I have my GED. In my early 20's I worked odd jobs - security, deputy, warehouses, bagger, and a few others (and good lord, worst one was at JCPenny outlet where I spend one whole day putting price tags on Michael Jackson dolls. Now that was Hell!).

I got screwed over more than once, but each new job I took I did my best at.

I worked for a company that made parts for Honda in my mid 20's (25-28). Started as a temp and was outproducing everyone on that team, and most we on full time. They hired me in. I got promoted to lead and did checmial testing, drove forklift, and had a crew working the lines for me. I even researched manufacturing while at home and some of my suggestions are still in place there (I still know people who work there). Then I got injured, was off work, and they fired me. I won after a year and a half of battles with them and settled out of court. Not a lot of money, but enough to get me out the debt I was in.

Got another job with another supplier in another town (as I had moved). I was a temp, broke three company records, was hired in, and when my 90 days of fulltime was up (+90 as a temp before they would hire you) I was eligible for insurcance for my wife and 3 kids. They fired me for some bogus reason - and I knew they did this a lot to people and did not want to be one of them, so I tried as well as I could to keep up my work ethic. Did not matter.

When I was 30 I got divorced and moved to California from Ohio. Took me three months but found a job with a small computer store. I had been around them since I was 13 so knew em fairly well. They loved my work. I quit and moved back to Ohio to be closer to my kids, but that was not working out. So I drove back and they had held my job for me. 3 Months later they went out of business (the guy running the place was terrible with money, the other two owners finally had had enough and bailed).

Then I went to enron and worked there as a lead admin. Left them after a year as corruption was rampant and moved back to Ohio.

Got a good here with a company and became lead tech. They shut down in the dot com bust but I stayed on for a few weeks when everyone else left to handle some of their data base affairs and transitioning.

Now I am with a bank. Started as a shift engineer, became lead of the site, then lead for all the sites in city, and am now manager for all data centers here. Been here about 5 years. Good money, 401k and a pension plan, travel to cool places, and so on. I have met my personal definition of success. I am 40.

I sure got screwed a lot but I did not let the piss poor ethics of others dictate to me how hard I would try. I don't know how safe my job is, another merger and it might be eliminated for all I know. But I won't become that which I do not like - companies may not try their hardest for their people, but that does not mean I will become like they are.

Due to being screwed so many times and my own mistakes my credit is shot, though I was able to buy a house. I still struggle as I was never able to save, just when I was getting to a good point things always fell apart workwise.

Success does come from hard work - mine - and not some company. Every job I have had I took seriously and studied all I could about it and the industry on my time, even when I just was a security guard.

It does not always lead to success on our time line or the way we hope, but it can lead to it. Hard work is the way to get to it, you certainly can't there being lazy (unless you inherit the money or win it or have a relative/buddy in a high place that helps you).

[NMDemDist2]

25. my husband tells a story about the railroad

A railroad crew was out one summer day repairing the rails and switches. The work was hard, hot and dusty.

At lunchtime a big sedan pulls up and the crew leader gets in and it drives away. A new guy on the crew said "Who is that?" and old timer told him "That's Mr. Big, he and Sonny have lunch every couple months together."

"Mr. Big??? the President of the Railroad??? Has lunch with SONNY??" says the newbie.

"Yup," says the oldtimer, "they started working for the RailRoad at the same time. Been friends for 25 years."

"Wow" says the newbie "that's something that Sonny's still here on the crew and his pal is the President huh?"

"Not really" says the oldtimer "Sonny worked for a paycheck all these years, but Mr. Big has always worked for the RailRoad"

the moral of the story, work like it was your own company and you can go far.

[The Straight Story]

38. Well stated

A smart company will see value and capitalize on it - sad thing is companies are run by people who can sometimes be real assholes. Win some and lose some, but never give up or become like them.

I am reminded of a time I was on the way to work and my car broke down. I got out and found a pay phone and called my dad. While waiting I thanked the lord for it - perhaps had it not broke down I would have been in an accident somewhere along the way. Things could always be worse, and even with crappy bosses/companies one can find the positive. I learned a lot of things at those terrible jobs I worked (and there were more than I mentioned above).

We make our own success, ain't nobody going to do it for us. But as noted, success means different things to different people. My dad lived his life (still is thankfully) a darn good man but never made much and has only his house and garage (and until last year mom). But he never did anybody wrong, even when his company he was with for many years shut down the local office - they offered to move him and get rid of a senior engineer to keep him - but to him it was just a job, family was his thing. So now he works in a plant making electrical boxes and cabinets for less than half what he did. But he does not complain, and at 71 he out works the guys in their 20's (and he is now a lead there).

[KAZ]

30. Thanks Straight.

I've been struggling with the "piss poor ethics of others" for some time now. Though I haven't endured the trials you've experienced, I'm constantly stunned by how the "Peter Principal" has seemingly overtaken this country. Maybe it's just me, and I'm getting old (45), but so many of us have our destinies controlled by idiots; or charlatans. I didn't feel that way 15 years ago. Maybe I was naive.

Time to start a business, again.

[The Straight Story]

36. Indeed to that

I almost did several times but had a wife and 3 kids to support and could not afford to take a hit on income while building a business.

One of my engineers was upset a few weeks back because he started when I did and is still working shift while I have moved others up to lead positions. I had a long talk with him about it (and I friends outside work with my engineers as well) and explained that he was one of the least motivated people I ever met. He wants to be lead, but does not ever lead. On his shift lets everyone else do the work while he surfs the net and listens for the phone. He complains he needs more training and such, yet out of 25 people he is the only one saying that (and while I worked nights I trained myself on many work related things from unix certs to ccna to programming).

Now will ALL the people who work hard for me get promoted? Well no, not enough positions. But there is turnover (people quit, move away, transfer to other depts, etc and so on). All the people who have worked hard for me I have given them what they want. The hours they want, promotions, and so on.

The company could do more to help me out in all this, but overall they have been good to us. It is my job to ensure they keep being good to my teams by doing the best I can and kicking butt up the chain. My main reason in wanting to move up now is not pay, it is to be able to help others out (and I got no raise from my two promotions last year - zero, in fact with shift diff some of my engineers make more than I do).

To me success is being able to be in a position to help others, while making enough to live off of. I buy used cars, my house was 93k even though I could have gotten a much nice place for a lot more, and I live knowing that tomorrow I could be out of work with less income - so I am trying to live within what I think is reasonable.

I am not better than other people - I am certainly blessed though, and thankful for the doors people have opened for me. Hell, I am thankful for the times I was screwed over too - because had things not all happend as they had i would not have met my wife, ever went to california, and not had my pretty little red headed daughter.

It all had a purpose in hindsight, I was just sometimes too blind to see it.

[Jayhawk Lib]

33. That is the way it works.

You are to be commended. I mentioned hard work the other day on another post and got ridiculed for it. Lazy people do not like to hear the words "hard work". It works!! You also went the extra mile to learn and become interested in what you were doing at the time.

I once heard a successful businessman say "the harder he worked the luckier he got".

No body ever got ahead by laying around whining and snotting about how well the next guy is doing and they are not.

[Bonhomme Richard]

37. I agree Straight. I has nothing to do with sweat, although,...

I've done, and am still doing, some of that. It's working hard at defining your own goals and working toward that. It doesn't have anything to do with fairness but it does have a lot to do with risk. Some are willing to take it and some are not.
Five years ago, at 48 years old, I decided I would work for myself and see what happened. Well, long story short, I designed something (if I told you I'd have to kill you) that saves the taxpayers millions of dollars a year and has other tangible benefits, I also received a patent on another product I designed that's used in aviation.
The point of all this is that I am not an engineer and if I were told 5 years ago that I would be doing this stuff I would have said you were crazy.... but you never know......I was in the right place, at the right time, with the right answer. I was asked if I could build something and without hesitation I answered yes.......I never built a damn thing in my life. I just figured "How hard can it be?" I took a gamble and it paid off.
It doesn't do anyone any good to be sour and grumble about things. Most of us, if we search deep enough, have what it takes to gain control of our lives.

[The Straight Story]

39. I know what it is :)

A machine to kick republicans out of office. That will accomplish all you have mentioned :)

I too am working on some things in my spare time (Which ain't much), am actually working on it as I post here (I can multi task). Involves data and compression, and also working on a few other math related things.

Someday I hope to take all I have learned and be my own company, in the meantime I will just do what needs to be done.

[bbgrunt]

23. When I was growing up, my family lived by the code that

"anything worth doing is worth doing right". People took pride in preserving things and each endeavor was seen to be a challenge to one's own personal integrity.

Then I went to college and studied economics where I learned that to maximize total utility one should only perform each job to the point where marginal utilities were equal. In other words, if you were already flunking your econ course but could boost your grade in music from a c to an a by skipping the rest of your econ lectures, you should do so to maximize your overall gpa.

This kind of thinking pervades the philosophers of today. The only problem is, no one really knows how to measure utility and even if they could measure it, it would be different for every individual. Economists think price is a measure of utility, but it only measures value in a very limited individually determined respect. It has no way of evaluating social ambience, spillover effects, or the utility gained from living in a just society among other things.

....so we've learned to maximize individual utility without any consideration of broader aspects......and ended up in the fallacy of composition: One person standing up at a football game can see better, but if everyone stands up to see better, you are left in the same position or worse.

[KAZ]

26. Good Lord, you people are excellent writers!

I'm going to have to search your previous posts. :)

Thanks.

[bbgrunt]

29. thanks for the acknowledgment, but it's really just

the result of a lot of bad (and good) economics training.

[Blue_Tires]

27. i've learned there is only ONE group promised to get ahead

if they work hard in America:


Thieves and criminals....

my outlook on life is much different now after coming to this realization...

[vssmith]

28. "Arbeit Macht Frei"---Auschwitz

[Selatius]

31. Yeah, that's what the sign said.

[Warpy]

32. Some people are working as hard as anyone in the

Industrial Revolution ever did and yet their customers are unsatisfied. The problem is that fewer people are being told to do more work for more hours for less reward and with less down time. Suck enough profit out of any system and service is going to suffer.

Back in assembly line days it was called a speedup and usually resulted in poor quality control and increased on the job injuries. Unions stopped that shit. Now they call it increased productivity.

There's a big difference between being forced to work to physical capacity and being allowed the leisure to do a good and thorough job. We are finding that difference out right now.

[KAZ]

41. I'm going to have to K&R...

...not only because of the seriousness of the original post, but due to the excellent replies it has received. Though I must admit, I'm not understanding the 2nd sentence of your first paragraph. It sounds like "fewer" should be "more".

[Warpy]

43. No, it's correct

Service staffing is being reduced, meaning fewer people. Workloads are being increased to reflect the loss of staff plus the normal increase in workload in a successful company, meaning working more. Working hours are being extended, especially now that the definition of salaried employee has been broadened to include anyone with a college education or advanced trade training, meaing more hours. Less reward refers to shrinking paychecks, and less down time is self explanatory.

[KAZ]

44. Gotcha. Thanks. We're on the same track.

I have coworkers putting in 30 hrs straight. I've done 27 myself, which only benefited the VP's, and their options. Those days are gone.

Thanks Warpy!

[Throd]

34. My clients are pleased...

They keep calling back and referring me to new people. They do so because I give them top level service at a realistic price. I had to get fired from a lot of crappy wage-slave jobs to learn this.

[BiggJawn]

40. I've worked hard, ruined my health, and I'm a failure.

Because I saw myself getting left in the dust and laughed at by sharpie Reagan-ites who had the morals of a cockroach and would fuck their own momma for a buck.

And now those assholes run the country. Hard work isn't valued anymore, just the ability to Accumulate Wealth.

"I did just fuckin' GREAT during the 80's, I don't know what YOUR problem was!"

[KAZ]

42. We'll change it Jawn....

...Know how you feel. I helped close out Waste Management as a consultant back in '99 (they got bought out), and I saw that prick of a CFO stand up and give a press conference in '98 saying how great everything was. We all laughed at the time since we knew better. He cashed out ($13 M) 3 days later. Then WM warned 2 weeks after that, and the stock was cut in half. Lot of folks got hurt, retirement and all. I was only a consultant, but the pain I saw in the people I worked with made me mad as hell.

We'll get em.

[BiggJawn]

45. Governor Mitch Daniels did the same thing to IPL retirees.

Lots of old IPALCO employees had their retirement nest eggs tied up in IPL stock. After Our Bitch Mitch engineered a buy-out by Cinergy, the IPL stock lost over 1/2 its value.