Support for the Minutemen and Anti-Immigration Sentiment

[AllieB]

When I first joined DU, there were a lot of posts about the Minutemen and, to my surprise, DUers who supported their mission. So it doesn't phase me in the least that there are people here blaming the immigrants for taking jobs away from Americans, and repeating many of the Republican talking points concerning illegal immigration. After all, that's exactly what the right-wing intended. The Republicans are creating a wedge issue for the 2006 election, and there are people on DU that are buying their bill of goods.

In America, we have a tendency to 'blame the victim'. It seems to have gotten more pronounced over the past 15 years, fueled by hate radio. Hence, it's no surprise that there's a lot of misdirected anger. The anger should be at the cheap labor conservatives, and the big businesses who hire undocumented workers for a fraction of the wage of a legal worker. These businesses only receive a small fine or a slap on the wrist for breaking the law, and the workers are deported. So who are the real criminals? The workers or the cheap labor conservatives who refuse to pay Americans a decent wage with benefits? They'd rather pay slave wages to undocumented workers, and the powers that be let them do it.

I'm descended from immigrants, and I'm pretty sure the ones that came from Ireland through Canada were probably illegal. It was easier to get citizenship back then, even in a climate where 'no dogs or Irish need apply'. I began to think of the jobs that immigrants do, and where I run into them on a weekly basis:

My hair stylist is from Portugal (she's been here 27 years)
The women who did my nails on Saturday is from the Ukraine
The people that clean my office building are from Brazil and Haiti
The woman waits on me at Starbucks is from Indonesia
The security guard at my building is from Ghana
My mechanic is from Algeria (American citizen for 20 years)
The cashier at the store tonight was from Ireland, and the bagger was from Colombia

When I take the commuter rail, or pay a toll to get to the airport, the people that serve me are white. Those positions are either union, or part of the old political patronage system that exists in my home state.

This is not to say that some immigrants don't take jobs from Americans. In rural areas, I'm sure they do. By and large, there still exists prejudice and barriers to non-whites or foreigners, and they exist more so for a new arrival to our country.

Immigrants enrich our lives, and enrich this country. The anger I've seen here is misdirected. Concern yourselves with the policies that create this kind of situation. Don't blame the victim.

[Beaverhausen]

1. Excellent post!

Unless we are native americans, we are all immigrants.

We are lucky to be living in this country.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. Beautifully said.

My grandmother crossed into the US with four kids in tow, including my mother. She had started out in Ireland, migrated to England, then to Canada. A long trail of poverty and backbreaking work.

I recently had surgery. One nurse was from Ukraine, another from Kazakhstan. The woman cleaning the room I was in was from El Salvador. Two of the nurses at the nursing home my wife (her Irish father was born in Scotland) volunteered at were refugees from Bosnia. The guy whose truck I helped unload at the recyclers was from Mexico.

People. Human beings. Not "illegals".

[AllieB]

5. The less generous part of me

believes that those who dehumanize 'illegals' don't have much interaction with immigrants, or are secretly (or not so secretly) prejudiced.

I hope your surgery went OK and you're on the mend. :-)

[RoyGBiv]

11. I have that same part ...

And I don't think it's entirely invalid. At least in my personal experience, people who don't know (or don't realize they know) any illegals tend to have all sorts of prejudiced opinions about them. Then they get to know (or better yet, come to realize they already know) an illegal, and their opinion either changes on the spot as they suddenly realize their idiocy, or they harden themselves and suddenly "discover" that person that was a pretty good person when they thought they were a legal immigrant isn't so good. The truly bigoted are of the latter variety.

[LostinVA]

18. I have that part, too

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Thanks. I'm doing OK.

I think the "less generous part" of you is well justified in your beliefs. All one has to do is read some of the posts even here on a "progressive" board.

[RoyGBiv]

3. Well said ...

K&R...

I've tried to stay out of this because I see it as such a non-issue as it is currently being framed. You, however, have framed it in the way progressives should be framing it yet are not, for some silly reason.

I don't guess I know much, but I do know this. I probably know, personally, more illegal and semi-illegal immigrants than the average bear. I know they work very hard for little money, and I also know they pay their bills, on time, which is far more than can be said for a lot of born-and-bread Americans I know. They all have stories; they're all human beings who deserve better than they get. They're trying, which, again, is more than can be said for a lot of legal Americans.

[AllieB]

15. I live in a small town, and work in a big city

My state (Massachusetts) seems to have an easier time absorbing immigrants than other places. I can see in a more isolated, rural place where immigration would be an issue.

In college, I worked in restaurants with people from all over Latin America, North Africa, the Caribbean, and Southern Europe. Most of them saved their money to send home. In the case of the Brazilian population here, many of them bought up real estate and started businesses. I think sometimes Americans have this heir of entitlement, but I also think that many are being left behind by the current educational and economic systems.

[MichiganVote]

4. There is immigration and there is illegal immigration

Both issues require revamping. The fact of the matter is, illegal aliens (immigrants) are breaking our laws and so are the employers who allow them to work w or w/o work permits. It is the illegality that bothers most people and the fact that our government pays this sector of the gov't lip service. Today, security linked with illegal immigration also ignites debate.

Immigration reform is another matter entirely. It should encompass things like how to go about applying for immigration, what to do, who to see, what is required, how long it takes, department staffing of immigration offices ....you get the idea.

So what is happening? Once again, the republicans have cleverly linked the two, immigration and illegal immigration, to be as one, thereby protecting corporations that enable the piss poor job we are doing with both for the "citizens" of this country.

For some people, sentiment is the driving force of their argument. For others, its economics.

Interestingly, citizenship in this debate, is nowhere to be found unless it it linked to "rights", not responsibilities.

[AllieB]

10. I don't think that sentiment or economics are the driving forces

many of the same people railing against 'illegality' of the immigrants have no issue with Bush breaking the law. I believe prejudice or fear of foreigners is the driving force, but the Republicans giving them a clever excuse for their racism.

[MichiganVote]

13. But how do you know that? How can anyone know that amid such

hue and cry by anyone on any side of this multi-faceted debate? Americans should be concerned about both Bush's illegal moves, Congress's lack of action and the fact that laws against illegal immigration are as ignored as jaywalking. Will it happen?

Hardly.

Personally, I've never known a racist who needed an excuse from a republican or anyone else to act like a bigot. And I've known plenty of them.

[AllieB]

19. I agree with you about most racists not needing an excuse

but there are some that feel guilty for their prejudices, and the current campaign by the right-wing is a convenient justification for them.

[MichiganVote]

26. Could be. But can we really legislate what people think or feel?

Can we realistically expect to alter the prejudicial perceptions that people hold by denying the illegality of any set of immigrants or citizens? Sure it may be lamentable that we cannot change people's mindsets but can we hope for any change by ignoring our laws? I think not. When all is said and done, our laws are the bedrock of our society. Without them we are like a ship without sails. And nowhere is that fact more evident than with the Bush adminstration.

[LostinVA]

20. And, it's basically the same rhetoric we've been hearing for 150 years

It's very, very similiar...

[RoyGBiv]

16. Is it?

Is it the "illegality" that bothers "most" people? Numbers on that would be good.

When you experience, on a daily basis, Hispanics of all varieties referred to as "wetbacks" regardless of their legal status, one begins to think something more than simple "illegality" is troubling the people who use such phrases. I hear people, almost daily now, bitch and moan about the Spanish language radio stations(*) and the two broadcast Spanish language television stations that have become popular in OKC with Hispanic immigrants, most of whom are here perfectly legally. "That stuff shouldn't be allowed on the airwaves." "Those damn wetbacks need to learn to speak the language if they're gonna be here." These people are not concerned with legal status at all. They're concerned with issues of a race/culture that doesn't mimic their own.

And don't even get me started on what people say about the Asian immigrants. I don't know a single one who is here illegally. Most are either students, naturalized citizens, or on their way to becoming one. For whatever reason, OKC has a large community of Vietnamese escaping communist rule, and all the ones I see every day have SS cards, which would indicate they are here with legal status. The utter filth that flows from people's mouths about this class of immigrants is worse than what is said about Hispanics, and it's the same people saying the same things in the light of day. "They toook awrrr jobbbbssss!" Yeah, whatever. Where's your PhD, Jim Bob?

The political debate has an entirely different context, one more in line with what you're saying, but the political debate is fueled by this rather overt racism.

(*) Side note: Listeners of a local, right-wing AM radio station woke to a shocking surprise recently. The station had been bought out and all the talent (I use the term very loosely) fired, on the spot, no hello, goodbye, glad to have known you, just, "Get out." The 6AM drive-time broadcast was all in Spanish. It was a joy to behold the freeper meltdown.

[MichiganVote]

24. Yes numbers would be good and yes bigotry is bad.

However, the fact remains that neither legal or illegal immigration is being handled well by the US.
Both issues need resolve and both issues do affect other items in the country, namely, jobs,wages,social services, education. etc.

It may be easy to stay with a blame game but real problem solving must be done and unfortunatly the biggest winner will not be US citizens, it will likely be corporations.

[RoyGBiv]

27. Why?

Why are the corporations going to be the biggest winners? I'm not saying you're wrong, just questioning why you seem resigned to that fate.

For my part, screw that. I reject, out of hand, any solution that pleases corporations more than it strikes a justifiable balance between issues of economy and human rights. My entire political philosophy is based in this, in fact. I reject the notion that corporations are in any way justified in framing this debate for their own ends.

Of course this is a difficult issue, and we need to be aware of that and willing to deal with it when it comes to making difficult choices. However, we do not need to bow to the altar of corporatism just because that's the way it is. My goal is to change the way it is, to progress past and well beyond this idea that a corporation has any sort of moral authority over anything. If the problem solving results in that, then we're not really solving anything, and we're focusing on the wrong problem.

[MichiganVote]

30. Corporations have no moral compass. They may demonstrate

decency, follow the OSHA reg.'s, or manage their business affairs with an eye toward donations for the downtrodden. But make no mistake, corporations are not moralist entities. They exist to serve themselves, not you, not me.

You ask why corporations are going to be the biggest winners. Rather than a long boring economic discussion, consider what you did today, who you saw, where you went, how you got there...

What part of your day did not involve a corporation?

I am not resigned regarding corporations and their import. I have made room for them in my life just as you have. They exist alongside my life, they do not consume my life. But you should know, as others who enter this country will know, corporations will use and abuse you as surely as they smile at your brighter smile, thank you for your use of diet pills, regulate your prescriptions or manage your financial affairs. They will even help you worship.

Its the American way. The immigrants, legal or otherwise, will learn that the US has become a giant K-mart.

[roguevalley]

34. Then of course, there is the political pandering illegal immigration.

If a Cuban makes it to land, they can stay. If a Haitian makes it to land, they get sent back. Not fair in the slightest.

[AllieB]

37. The same thing happened to Salvadorans in the '80s

because we supported the right-wing government and death squads.

[maveric]

6. Why are Filipinos allowed to immigrate with no problem at all?

Talk about taking jobs away from Americans...Just look at the CA Healthcare system. Hospitals and other Healthcare facilities have contracts with the Philipine govt. To import nurses. I worked in such a facility and the DON (director of nursing), stated that to me.
So whats the deal here? Mexicans=Bad, Filipinos=Good?

[AllieB]

12. It's crazy, isn't it?

BTW I saw you post once that you're from Lawrence, MA. Talk about a melting pot of immigrants! I live in Andover, right next door. :-)

[maveric]

21. At one time 45 different languages were spoken Lawrence.

My ancestors came from Sicily and Ireland The Sicilians were masons who built all those "Searles" castles in Lawrence, Methuen, Salem and Windham NH. The Irish were laborers and textile workers.
Two of my great grandfathers were instrumental in the "Bread and Roses" strike of 1912.
When I was a kid my grandfather would drive me around Lawrence and point out all the ethnic neighborhoods. German, Italian, Irish, Belgian, Polish, Russian, Jewish... I found that fascinating.
Now Lawrence (Larry), is a burnt out and decrepid shell of what it once was.
Its very sad, as you well know.

But yes, it is crazy that some immigrants from certain countries are welcomed with open arms, while others, from different countries are villified.

[LostinVA]

23. I'm Sicilian and Irish too!

The Irish were fisherman and became crabbers, the Italians were illiterate farm laborers and became barbers and mill workers... and put all their kids through college.

[AllieB]

29. Now the population is overwhelmingly Dominican

you have an interesting family history, and Lawrence (and neighboring Lowell) were ground zero for the labor movement.

[maveric]

31. I was back there last year...

and noticed how really worse the city has gotten. All those geart stores on Essex St are gone. "Bishop's" restaurant is gone!
I also went to Haverhill while I was back there and was pleasantly surprised at how downtyown Haverhill was fixed up very nicely. Little shops, clubs and restaurants all over what was once delapitated shoe factories.
Why cant they do that to Lawrence?

[AllieB]

32. Bishop's closed because the old man died

and the kids didn't want to carry on the business. One of them opened a restaurant in Salem, NH. I miss Bishop's! I had my first hummus there!

[maveric]

33. We'd go there for special occaisions. Great lobster!

My uncle owned a nice restaurant near Bishops. "Savastano's". They closed down some 20 years ago due to crime.

[LostinVA]

22. Cubans in Florida? THEY take jobs away from REAL Americans!

The hell with the wet foot dry foot policy!!!

[RebelOne]

45. Yup, I agree with you.

Lived in Miami most of my life. One of the reasons I moved to North Georgia is that the Cubans had taken over my city. Spanish was the main language and you could not even get a job if you weren't bilingual.

[liberalpress]

7. At its core, the "illegal immigration" thing...

.. is all about the Mexicans. It's not cool to hate blacks any more, so another readily identifiable group of people needs to fill the bill. Don't buy the arguments that those ranting the most are only against "illegals" and have nothing against Mexican. That, as Col. Henry Potter used to say, is pure "horse pucky." Nope, it racism rearing its ugly head yet again. Give two-hundred years or so, and it'll cycle back to Indigenous Americans again

[LisaLynne]

8. The Myth of Scarcity

When we feel that there isn't enough to go around, people tend to get very hateful and like to direct that hate at something or someone or a group of someones. We see the backlash against other minority groups for "taking away jobs" from white males. This, to me, is basically the same thing. Because we fear that there just isn't enough, we compete for resources. And I mean compete in the worst sense of the word. It is in the interests of people like Bush -- the "Haves and have-mores" -- to have this anger directed, not at them who consume far more than they could ever use, but at other less privileged groups.

In the past, this was characterized as the rich elite creating the "Myth of Scarcity", although with Bush in charge, rapidly destroying everything in our country, it might not be a myth for much longer! ;)

[Just Me]

9. True. That is PRECISELY how the right-wing machine operates:

It misdirects anger,...hell, it even manufactures anger and fear.

If we seek fairness and justice and equality, simply enforce what laws exist. That's all. It's simple. Consistent enforcement of laws, period.

[LostinVA]

17. Great post, Allie

[Lars39]

25. Hunting around for immigration stats, I found this jewel:

"...Canada absorbs more immigrants per capita than any other country."

http://www.how2immigrate.net/canada/

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. K&R for a truly great post.

[pat_k]

35. The real crime is exploiting and underpaying workers, documented or undocu

. . .you hit the nail on the head.

When any group, documented or undocumented, is paid poverty wages, it drives down the wages for all workers. A guest worker program that allows the "guests" to be exploited and underpaid does nothing to deal with the actual problem.

Perhaps people wouldn't be so adamant about rounding up and deporting every undocumented worker if somebody told them what we would have to do to grant their wish.

The only way to ensure that every worker is documented would be to require forge-proof, biometric documentation (including digital fingerscan and photograph) and registration in a national database. Every citizen, visa holder, and tourist would have to register.

Perhaps attitudes have changed, but I think most Americans would find the solution to be worse than the problem.

The solution I prefer is to make it the right of every worker to earn a living wage in lawful working conditions, no matter what their status.

The real crime is exploiting and underpaying workers, documented or undocumented. That is the crime that should be punished by mandatory prison time.

There wouldn't be much incentive to hire undocumented workers if you have to pay them. And if the jobs pay, properly documented workers might actually apply for them.

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. THe confusion, I believe, lies in the framing of the question.

What has everybody riled up is that the Bush Administration allowed scores of illegals to swarm the States as a favor to Fox. (What happened to Homeland Security?) And now that they're here, what do we do? Amnesty or deport them?

Then, once you make a decision with that problem, you go to the bigger problem. Do you support open borders? Or controlled immigration from this point on?

[pat_k]

38. We need to answer a basic question: Why do we want to control immigration?

Of course we have a right to control our borders and set immigration policy, but until we understand the PURPOSE we cannot begin to determine rational policy.

The first thing we need to recognize is that it is not worker status -- documented or undocumented -- that has a negative impact on our economy. When any group is paid poverty wages, it drives down the wages for all workers. A guest worker program that allows the "guests" to be exploited and underpaid does nothing to deal with the actual problem.

A key economic incentive for controlling our borders can be eliminated by making it a crime to exploit workers -- any workers -- by underpaying or subjecting them to unlawful working conditions.

If you take out that economic incentive, what is left? What problems are we trying to solve when we seek to control immigration? What values are we trying to promote?

What immigrant characteristics might we give preference to and why? For example, do we need more manual laborers, professionals, or skilled artisans? Do we believe we should serve as a safe haven for people who are targets of persecution or seeking to escape poverty?

In addition to clarifying the WHYs, we need to step back and look at the HOWs. What does "controlling our borders" actually involve?

For example, does closing the border from Mexico serve a purpose that makes it worth the tens of billions it will cost?

Contrary to what most would have us believe, undocumented workers don't all come over the border from Mexico. About 4 million entered legally on student, tourist, or worker visas. A significant number are in the process of extending their visas, but are caught up in bureaucratic never never land.

Have we allocated sufficient resources to following up on those who overstay?

We're spending a billion a year on the US-VISITs program, which is collecting biometric data and registering foreign nationals that seek entry, but this program does nothing to address forged proofs of citizenship. How does the scope of that problem compare to the ones that are addressed by US-VISITs? Do we really need such a complex system to track status of visa holders? Could a mandatory exit process, with follow-up for failure to comply have been instituted within the existing system?

We have to answer some basic questions -- basic questions that I don't think Americans have thought much about -- before we can begin to define the tasks, prioritize them, and allocate funding in accordance with priorities.

[JDPriestly]

40. Good points. Well said.

Note my post below about the shortage of low-income housing in L.A. It's a serious problem and it is seriously aggravated by the rapid rate of immigration.

[The Backlash Cometh]

42. That's why we need to control the flow of people.

On one hand we bitch about the rapid rise of high density housing, and yet our policies almost guarantee that it's going to happen.

[The Backlash Cometh]

41. Those are good points, except that I see a flaw:

I don't believe that one approach alone is going to work and I see a flaw in your reasoning. Allowing someone in on guest worker program guarantees that they have protection under the federal laws to get a fair wage, if minimum wage. There's a better chance that we can avoid the slave labor with guest worker programs. We can control it for those who play by the rules.

As for open borders, the unlimited availablity of any work force is going to bring down wages. You can't have open borders, because we really don't have as much work as you think we do for all these people. There's lots of Americans who will work for a fair wage, and we should be taking care of them first. Just as the countries of the illegal aliens should be taking care of them.

[pat_k]

59. ALL workers must be protected against predatory employers

I said nothing about open borders. We must control our borders.

What I said is that I don't think Americans have actually given much thought to the effectiveness of various control option relative to the cost. For the most part, Americans are only looking at one part of the problem -- the influx from Mexico.

"Control our borders" involves much more than putting up barriers at physical borders. In fact, controlling our borders is about much more than control. It is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly. As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

"Taking care of our own first" and ignoring the exploitation of others within our borders is a formula for taking care of no one. It is path that drives more and more of us and "them" into poverty.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often, such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can take a giant leap ahead in controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements: Going after predatory employers and offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families. Specifically:

• Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers..
  This means that conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g., this year, the IRS requires all annual wages to be reported for some types of work, but for most the threshold is $1500)


• Criminalize predatory employment practices.
  Predatory employers who are exploiting employees by violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.


• Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
  This requires clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.


• Increase resources and create special units as required
  Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.

By enacting the above, we reduce the incentive to employ and exploit workers to zero. When undocumented workers are given an incentive to blow the whistle on predators, few employers will take the risk.

This approach is a powerful means of controlling our borders by exposing the underground economy to the light of day.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would still to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. This approach would still require a mechanism to offer qualified (criteria to be determined) undocumented workers temporary legal status and an achievable path to citizenship. If we do not institute such a program, as predators are put out of business the deportation and support costs for displaced workers are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

[JDPriestly]

39. The problem is not immigrants but how many immigrants.

We need immigrants, but we also need to control the rate at which immigrants enter the country. We need to allow immigration and movement, but we don't need to be invaded by millions of illegal immigrants. Here in Southern California, we have a serious shortage of low-income housing. Many immigrants live in squalid, over-crowded housing. They are exploited to an extent that you would not believe. It isn't that there are immigrants. It's that there are too many immigrants coming into the country at too fast a rate. We don't have boundless space. The pressure of high population in urban areas is becoming a serious problem. Just come to L.A. and try getting from your home to almost anywhere else in the city during rush hour. You will understand why people have mixed feelings about immigration.

[Bridget Burke]

44. I knew there was a lot of traffic in LA.

But I didn't know it was all the fault of the "illegal immigrants."

We've got quite a bit of traffic in Houston. But it's nobody's "fault." Certanily it isn't bad enough to turn us against ALL immigrants--even the legal ones.

[JDPriestly]

55. It's the fault of the number of people coming to L.A.

And, yes, hordes of illegals from all over the world come to L.A. It is close to the Mexican border as well as to Asia, and it's so huge that it is easy to get lost here. The public transportation is very, very poor, so newcomers try to get cars and drive (without licenses) as soon as they can. It is a mess. Housing costs are astronomical compared to incomes. Illegals live in horrible conditions that you would not believe. In my area, I see illegals pushing shopping carts. They have not place to bathe. They scrounge for food. It is not an issue of race because illegals are of all races including European. Many of them do quite well after some years. some come for a number of years, marry, have children, and then move back to wherever they came from. I say yes to immigration, but no to unlimited illegal immigration. I do not care what race or national origin immigrants have, but there has to be some limit to the number.

[Cobalt Violet]

43. May I ask what you do for a living?

Just curious.

[AllieB]

47. I work in finance at a software company

I know many people over the years who have been hurt by outsourcing: their engineering jobs sent to India and Eastern Europe.

Are you trying to establish a pattern of some sort?

[HeeBGBz]

46. I work at a restaurant in Branson, MO

Anyone not aware of the workings of the town, it's filled with theaters, restaurants and hotels that cater to tourists. There are always way more jobs (non-skilled labor, mostly) than people to fill them. Now they are soon to open up the Branson Landing, a convention center with shopping mall and boardwalk by the lake. At present, every business I know is understaffed. It's common knowledge that you can quit one job and walk across the street and get another.

This way of life has spawned the most appalling laziness among workers available. I spend weeks training people who last maybe a month. Everyone wants to make money but few care to do anything to earn it. You have to sift through meth-heads, criminals, terminally lazy and other undesirables. You sometimes get ones who can DO the job, but leave as soon as things don't go 100% their way.

In the last couple of years, Branson has a guest worker program. Now, every summer, we get students from other countries who work for several months and leave. There are language difficulties sometimes but the majority of these people work hard while they are here.

Right now I'm working with several Romanians and Thai students. We have some returning from Poland and Russia this month as well. I enjoy these people. They are interesting and friendly. Some customers and co-workers balk at the "foreigners" but as far as I can tell, it's a xenophobe thing. We also have Mexican locals and Native Americans. It is a mix of ethnicities in mid-America.

I personally think it's more beneficial to maybe take a few extra minutes in understanding a student worker trying to please (most of these workers speak about 3 languages). Go ahead and send them back and you have ate up meth heads who forget to put your order in and are too busy scamming for their next hit. Or a half-assed servers who just cannot do the job required or you have one or two overworked "good locals" who cannot do everything themselves to keep a business running smoothly.

This is only the situation in one strange little fundie-based tourist zone. I was born and raised here. The PWB have changed this sleepy fishing town into the monstrosity it has become. I just wanted to share one perspective from a relatively rural area.

[AllieB]

49. I disagree about the laziness of American workers

although when I worked in restaurants many years back, I did see that kind of behavior occasionally. It was a kind of resentment-they felt that they were too good to bus tables or wash dishes, and left after a few months.

Americans work longer hours and are among the most productive in the world.

[HeeBGBz]

53. I didn't say all American workers are lazy

I have seen my share and they qualify. Maybe I should just call them self-indulgent.

I myself could be wishful lazy. I would be fine and happy working 5 days a week or part-time in what I do. Each person I train is in the hopes of acquiring one more day off for myself. It seems to be a pipe dream. Whereas some of my co-workers get their two days off by calling in for yet another mysterious illness.

Lazy defined as walking by a table where the customers have stacked a dirty dish tower begging for removal and said worker pretends they don't see it because it's much easier to let the buss person pick them up when they clean off the table.

Maybe it's not lazy, but a lack of common sense?

[AllieB]

54. I worked with waiters like that

I would qualify that as spacey or lazy. :-)

Restaurant work is very demanding, and restaurant owners are notoriously cheap. How do they get away with paying waiters $2.36/hour?

Have you read "Nickel and Dimed"?

[HeeBGBz]

60. I almost bought that once.

Had it in hand and put it back.

Yeah, wages suck. I started waiting tables when I was 14 and I made $1.10 an hour. Thirty-seven years later I make $3. Not a big cost of living increase...

[mmonk]

48. One of the reasons I don't delve deep into this issue

is I believe this issue coming to the forefront is intentional by politicians for the wedge issue. I decided I don't want to play right now. Good post.

[AllieB]

50. I agree it's a wedge issue, and many are going to fall

hook, line and sinker for the propaganda.

[BlackVelvet04]

51. "This is not to say that some immigrants don't take jobs from Americans.

This is not to say that some immigrants don't take jobs from Americans. In rural areas, I'm sure they do."

Try Tucson, Phoenix and any other city in close proximity to the border.

[AllieB]

52. I live in a state where 20% of the residents were born in another country

and in case you didn't notice, we have the ocean as a border, and we've absorbed immigrants here for 300 years.

Why don't you direct your anger at Republican policies and the cheap labor conservatives who hire the illegals, thus driving wages down?

[BlackVelvet04]

56. What anger?

I merely pointed out that it's not just rural areas.

I've been preaching for years that corporations who hire illegals are the problem.....a long time before others even talked about the problem.

I LIVED with the problem day in and day out in Arizona and I spent a lot of time in Mexico. I completely sympathize with the Mexican people and the reasons they leave Mexico.

[AllieB]

57. Sorry I read anger into your post

I guess I've been reading too many heated discussions on DU these days. :-)

[BlackVelvet04]

58. I understand.

I always feel very torn about this issue because I understand both sides. I can't blame anyone for wanting to escape the poverty of Mexico. At the same time there has to be a better way because the people in border states are fighting their own war against poverty because of the cost of illegal immigration to these states. I don't have the answer but I have a lot of questions and a lot of compassion for both sides. I seldom sit on the fence about any issue but this is one that puts me on the top rung and I don't much like it.

[ecstatic]

61. Come on this is offensive, I believe we're all for legal immigration

Nobody here is angry at the immigrants.

Illegal immigration = BAD
Legal immigration = GOOD

[AllieB]

62. Could have fooled me.