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MissMillie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:25 PM
Original message
Help in debunking a freeper claim.
someone on another site (no not FR or the other one) has given this example of a court ruling that says that the Bush surveillance program is on solid legal ground.

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200603150741.asp

Has anyone seen any legal arguments that would knock this argument down?

Who is this "Court of Review"?
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. What part needs debunking?
There's a lot in there...is there anything in particular that strikes you?
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chicofaraby Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. I only skimmed it BUT....
Is this opinion writer saying that a secret court heard a secret case and said the domestic spying is all A-OK?

Why would I believe that?
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. that's what I got out of it...
smells like bs to me. I wasn't aware that secret courts can secretly make decisions that impact the legality of spying on Americans. It must be written in the super secret section of the US Constitution. :eyes:
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. only someone w/a slave mentality would think the govt. should spy on them
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cssmall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Nietszche said that too.
Well, in his treatise about the Master and Slave Moralities. *shrug* Still I wouldn't call it a slave mentality, I would call it a blindness.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. Article says "The Truong court, as did all the other courts to have
decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information."

The issue is about domestic spying not foreign spying.
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TAPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. As to "Court of Review" ...
They appear to be the 3 judges mentioned in the first paragraph of the article.
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. Using "The Wall" defense ...
saying that the Clinton administration's actions "forced" them to do this, and by association, blame them for 9/11.

The link is an editorial by Jamie Gorelick, the person associated with this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A20786-2004Apr17?language=printer
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. York, Olson, and The National Review
Reich-Wing operatives tell freeper what he wants to hear, so he doesn't bother with the details.
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MissMillie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Understood
However, I don't want to attack the National Review, I want to attack the National Review's version of the details. I want to address the argument, not the source.
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. The National Review?
Ennablers and apologists of war crimes?

Stay away
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. Here is the supposed Super secret court's super secret case
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 03:43 PM by izzybeans
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/fiscr111802.html

The president has the authority to conduct surveillance on foreign citizens unchecked by FISA. but no authority, regardless of interpretation, to go to "a super secret" court to subvert the constitution. FISA still appllies. Even the super secret court says so (contain in the link). Besides the issue in 2002 had to do with an intepretation of FISA the court of review found to be dubious, which was FISA warrent info. was inadmissable in prosecutions, which the 2002 ruling and the Truong ruling debunked. It did not establish any spying program or authority for the president to spy on Americans without judicial "supervision". It clarified "foreign" and the prosecutability based on the evidence collected.

Either way, the simple solution is the constitution trumps statute and if this surveillance program applies to citizens, no matter how super-duper doubly secret, it's illegal because it is unconstitutional. And its illegal to keep it super-duper dippidity do damn do secret as well.

I find it curious however that 2002 was the first activation to the court of review. I suspect a stacked deck on this court.

Remember they are careful with their wording. They call it foreign spying and keep it secret. They are hiding something and everyone knows it.

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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Good answer. I saw that John Yoo was one of those arguing that
the president has to be above the law and the constitution. (LOL)
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MissMillie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
14. Update: here is my rebuttal
Well, I've read his article. And, as I anticipated, I'm very suspect of his interpretation of the ruling. Why am I suspect? Because I'm reading the ruling myself, right now.

If you'd like to read it... go here: http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/fiscr111802.html

I'm 16 pages into it, and so far what I see is a ruling that determines whether evidence gathered by FISA surveillance is admissible in criminal trials. It doesn't concern itself AT ALL about whether the President has any inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches. The only time it mentions "executive power" of the President is when it sites the Truong case, which (as I have already pointed out to you) involved warrantless surveillance that was carried out before the enactment of FISA.

A report by the non-partisan Congressional Research Service weighs in on this by saying that the court of review "took forgranted" that the President has the power to conduct warrantless surveillance despite the fact that "much of the other lower courts' discussions of inherent presidential authority occurred prior to the enactment of FISA, and no court has ruled on the question of Congress's authority to regulate the collection of foreign intelligence information." http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/m010506.pdf


I'm beginning to wonder if Byron even read this ruling.

Have you?

(Adding this after getting to p. 21. The direct quote from the ruling is this:

"We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that it is so FISA could not encroach on the President's consitutional power. The question before us is the reverse, does FISA amplify the President's power by providing a mechanism that at least approaches a classic warrant and which therefore supports the government's contention that FISA searches are constitutionally reasonable.")


That's hardly the homerun Byron touts it to be.

My favorite quote still comes from the Constitution.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probably cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized."

I've always thought of the Consitution as a document that guarantees rights to the people, rather than something that gives rights to the government. But of course, I just get that from reading the Federalist papers and such. I figure the best way to know what our founders intended is to see what they had to say about the whole process. I intend to hit that book again very soon (probably over the weekend).

I also want to add that it's very well known that after the American Revolution, the framers were very adamant that Presidential power not be unchecked. I find it hard to believe that they would envision given the President this kind of power. And so far, every single court that has ruled on the subject (the court of review made no such ruling, merely making what they themselves call "an assumption" on which to frame an opposing argument) has ruled that such power should not go unchecked.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Nice work!
:toast:
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