All this talk about immigration, but what about emigration of OUR jobs???

[BigBearJohn]

Look at all the jobs that are being sent over to India and other countries?
Why isn't there a HUGE clamor about this???

[Marie26]

1. Why do you think that is? nt

[NoAmericanTaliban]

2. What jobs that aren't being outsourced are being in-sourced by illegal

immigration & legal means such as H1 visas. There is no question that they are lowering our standard of living. Bush wants to raise the H1 visa levels & probably will succeed. Clinton did the same with H1 visas when he was pressured by silicone valley.

[QC]

7. Exactly--it's two parts of the same strategy.

The ultimate goal, of course, is the creation of a two-class society in the US.

[RagingInMiami]

3. Kind of like spreading freedom abroad

While trampling on freedom at home.

[BigBearJohn]

4. the rich get richer and the poor get poorer

[ugarte]

5. Too complicated. Easier to kick a Mexican...nt

[BigBearJohn]

8. I dont remember all this talk about Mexicans when we still had jobs HERE

and not shipped off to cheaper labor markets.

2nd question -- why aren't we shipping jobs to Mexico (or are we?)

[newspeak]

33. the corporations

have been shipping jobs to Mexico, even before NAFTA. The thing is, those corporations are allowed to exploit the laborers, the environment and resources without any obstruction from the Mexican government. Of course, some years back, the Mexican people were up in arms when a US chemical plant located in one of the regions was blatantly polluting their water supply. Notice, I said the people, not the government. But basically, US corporations have free reign in Mexico and as long as they don't murder too many by contamination or over work, they can basically get away with things that would be illegal here. These corporation are sociopathic by nature, for they know what they're doing is immoral and wrong; but the bottom line trumps all!!!

[Gormy Cuss]

12. Sadly, that is true.

But there is a growing trend towards abusive behavior on the phone when Americans are transferred to South Asian call centers. I think the wheels are coming off the offshoring bus too.

As an another poster noted, very few people were complaining about illegal immigrants when the economy was doing well. The neocons were hoping to capitalize on public sentiment by making it even harder for Latino immigrants to come to the table with the same legal protections.

We need to cut illegal immigration without making it impossible to come here to work or to stay here without being in a second class underground status. I don't know the right way to achieve that goal but I do know how to recognize a stinker like the Sensenbrenner bill.

It's great that there were such massive turnouts. It will be hard to ignore it.

[sandnsea]

6. Workers of the World Unite

This is about the exploitation of the worker. All workers. Everywhere. If we forced businesses to meet the same environmental, labor and human rights regulations in other countries as we do here, there would be far less incentive for businesses to go. The only reason they would build factories in other countries would be to produce products for those countries and they would have to pay those workers a living wage in order to buy those products.

Stop letting them pit worker against worker. That is the wrong fight.

[HereSince1628]

11. So true. And terribly unfortunate. As a baby boomer I was a cold war

kid. Raised to duck and cover, learned "pinko" not as a fishing bait but as the equivalent of "asshole, watched the Berlin Wall go up, the Cuban missles come and go and went off into the domino dominated fields of Vietnam. Finally I watched the east European bloc of totalitarianism disintegrate and the Berlin Wall fall.

Now, Bush is demonstrating every last evil of capitalist imperialism, and not too slowly in reaction we are being pushed by human nature to adopt the positions of the foe we vanquished.

"Workers of the world unite" isn't a just a union chant, it is an echo of Trotsky and the Lenin.

Sad, really.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. I'm with you. And, I can even hum the Internationale.

As the old song says, "Which Side are You On?" The workers or the bosses.

[fasttense]

9. The jobs shipped to Mexico aren't paying a living wage so

the Mexican citizen comes here to get a decent wage. Dose that make any sense to anyone? We are losing our jobs by the millions yet people from all over the world are clamoring to come here. Why aren't those wonderful jobs in foreign countries keeping people at home? Is it because these corporations are not paying descent wages for even the most impoverished? Don't you love it when the "Free Market" works to improve society. :sarcasm:

[Blue Diadem]

20. There was a Solidarity article(Union magazine) several years ago

that spoke about what the factories were paying in Mexico. It was more than normal for the area but it was also under conditions that were extreme. They spoke to young people who were suffering from repeated stress injuries, long work hours and no time off. They were & are being exploited. They are treated much better here and I think that's why they continue to come here.

[HereSince1628]

10. Simple xenophobia is currently patriot, off-shoring is profitable.

Blaming illegal immigrants has little corporate downside, and plays into the fascist movement that has swept the country in the past 6 years.

The US Gov. now has the capacity to handle (profitably for Halliburton) even the 500K demonstrators in California.

They just need to get the National Guard back into the country so they have the police capacity to handle the round-up and lock-up.

Another story in the news is the US claims uncontested Iraqi control of empty deserts to facilitate the argument that Iraq is in its own hands. Thus making the transfer of our troops back home possible.

During this administration the rule of thumb is track the money to the greatest confluence of evils. When you get there you have their agenda.

[earth mom]

13. Now that is THE most important question of all.

I'd love to see half a million VOTING CITIZENS take to the streets to defend all of our jobs and the middle class way of life. Instead we see illegal immigrants who have nothing to lose and everything to gain from protesting-doing what WE should be doing.

VOTING CITIZENS don't care-until it happens to THEM.

Absolutely pathetic. :(

[GRLMGC]

21. Are you fucking kidding me

A lot of those protestors were CITIZENS. My relatives who were there are CITIZENS. What a horribly racist assumption that all the people protesting were illegal immigrants. Jesus Christ! And this is a progressive website?

[Marie26]

24. Sometimes it's hard to tell. nt

[earth mom]

27. No you gotta be fucking kidding me.

Why turn my post into something it's not? Maybe some people protesting were citizens, but I'd bet the majority protesting were not. I grew up in Southern California and lived there up until about 7 years ago, so don't try and play the "race card" with me. I well know what's happening there-illegal immigration is out of control there-simple as that. My immediate family has personally been victims of the exploitation of jobs and wages that's going there and elsewhere-we well know what it's like to live as the working poor. So save me the racist b.s. would ya?

What I find really amazing is that you did not even address the main point of my post-which is how the rethugs are trying to sh*t can the middle class and outsource jobs, drive down wages, break unions, and exploit ALL workers by flooding the job market with 2 people for the price of 1. Turn a blind eye all you want, frame it as race or some other b.s.-but it could be YOUR job next.

[GRLMGC]

30. Spare me the indignation

You made a broad brush statement that I objected to. Don't wanna be called on your racist tendencies? Then watch what you say. It's fair game when its out in the open

[earth mom]

32. How about this broad brush statement?

Sure you're not a rethug? Since you don't seem to give a damn about what far too many american citizens are facing-exploitation by the corporate bastards.

Seems like you care only for your own selfish objectives and goals-just like the rethugs.

Works both ways doesn't it?

[mistyeye]

14. all of the great strides made in employment protection

are also dissolving before our eyes. Overtime, 40-hour week, paid vacation, sick leave, a strong OSHA,workers comp, even the minimum wage. Corporations fought against the implementation of them all. Now corporations have found around these employment laws, with progressive blessings, it seems.

[napi21]

15. That's a valid point. I would BET, if the good mfg. jobs still existed

here in the US, the tirade about illegals wouldn't be nearly as LOUD!

I think the BIG problem is a combination of the two. Our good jobs are all being oursourced, and the middle income ones are being given to illegals at despicable wages! WE are losing on all sides!

[Marie26]

18. Outsourcing is the real evil here

I grew up in a blue-collar town in Ohio. Almost everyone worked, or knew somebody who worked, in the big steel mills & automobile factories. In the early 1900's, immigrants came from all over the world to work in these mills. It was dirty work, but they unionized & acheived a living wage & moved up into the middle class. Men could get jobs in the steel mill, and get a good-paying job to support their families. Then, the town steel mills decided to outsource their operations to Japan. In one single day, 25,000 people lost their jobs. The town has never recovered. All those men who had good jobs had to scramble for the other disappearing manufacturing jobs, move away, or settle for low-paying service jobs. My town has the highest unemployment rate, & the highest crime rates in the whole state. And you know what? It's not because of illegal immigrants. Right now, there's not a illegal immigration problem in my town, because nobody is hiring, & nobody is moving there. Instead, young people must move out to find jobs elsewhere.

Outsourcing destroyed that town, just like it's destroyed the industrial working class throughout the country. It's no longer possible to find good, respectable manufacturing jobs - they've almost all moved off-shore. Corporations are moving their operations overseas, paying less $$ w/less regulations, & slashing pension plans for American retirees. And this flood has inspired Americans to finally rise up against... illegal immigrants!! What the hell? It doesn't make sense to me. It makes me think illegal immigrants are a convenient scapegoat for politicians to use to divert middle-class anger that should be directed at corporations. Outsourcing is responsible for the loss of good blue-collar jobs, so why don't we direct our anger & power towards stopping that problem?

[blondeatlast]

16. It's a diversion. Easier to pick on eneducated, jobless poor

than it is to pick on Big Corporate.

I know--I'm married to an Indian who was just nationlized last Friday.

The irony here is, he risks losing his job to outsourcing to India.

BTW, he understands the diversion well and doesn't like it one bit.

[Blue Diadem]

19. It's been going on for years, people didn't care until it hit their job.

The handwriting was on the wall back when Nafta was signed..job predictions for the future were service oriented. We tried discussing it with people not in manufacturing and were told it was a factory thing..uneducated people..anyone can do that job. You just can't get people fired up over something that doesn't affect them unless they have compassion for others. Heck..we still have repuke relatives who say too bad so sad about DH's two plant closings.

It's very similar to Martin Niemoeller's message

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[KoKo]

22. Ha! You answered your own question! Immigration covers up Emigration

and alows the Repugs to racebait. Thereby bringing their faithful out to the polls in November. Make it about an "illegal" stealing your job and you get the firebreathers all in a tizzy. But, talk about "offshoring and outsourcing" and you have both guilty parties Repug and Dem heading for the hills because it was part and parcel of both parties philosophy.

[Marie26]

23. And both parties make a ton of money

off of it because of contributions from off-shored corporations. So they won't do anything about it, but they do have another plan so you don't notice this: Look, over there! It's an illegal immigrant!

[KoKo]

25. Exactly.....sad as it is...it's the reality. n/t

[WestSeattle2]

26. The true irony in all of this....

is that PAT BUCHANAN of all people, stands up for working men and women. Talk about politics making strange bedfellows.

He's called both Congress and this WH on their cheap labor bullshit for years, and no one listened to him.

Fact is, both parties would love open borders between Mexico, the US, and Canada, which will result in a lowered standard of living for low and middle-income Americans.

Very sad that no one besides Pat Buchanan and Lou Dobbs, both elected to nothing, are the ones most vocal about this issue.

Meanwhile, blue-collar republicans continue to vote their economic futures away.

NAFTA, CAFTA, SHAFT'YA

[KoKo]

28. Pat has always fancied himself a Southern "Populist" of the Old School.

He morphs back and forth though... He's a wierd bird but when push comes to shove he will always support a Repug. He could have been better........:-(...but he takes the "low road" in a pinch.

I understand what you say, though...

[WestSeattle2]

29. totally agree...

he's always quick to point out *'s shortcomings, arguing strenously AGAINST WH positions, then turns around and supports shrub. Amazing fellow, and very much the politician.

[area51]

31. "Why isn't there a HUGE clamor about this???"

Unfortunately, I think too many people don't care until the problem bites them on the ass & they lose their job.

I believe some people think their job is immune to offshoring, but there's also inshoring, where H1Bs and L1s are brought in to take American jobs.