An 11th graders response to an opposing view

[CatWoman]

I post on Mike Luchovich's blog. Mike is the cartoonist for the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

When the death toll (American) surpassed 2K, Mike drew this cartoon. He used the names of the fallen in order to draw the cartoon:



The 11th grader, Dannielle, responded with this toon:



I think it was very big of Mike to post that opposing viewpoint.

You can read Mike's comments, as well as others, at this link:

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/shared-blogs/ajc/luckovich/entries/2005/12/29/response_to_why.html

[FlemingsGhost]

1. One day, Daniellle will shudder at her naiveté

Either that, or she'll be a Republican.

[MuseRider]

3. You have to hope she

will shudder, it certainly made me shudder. 11 years old? Damn.

[Crunchy Frog]

19. 11th grade not 11 years old.

At least she defended the freedom of others to express different point of view, which was a contrast to most of the nasty RW comments that I read there. Hopefully her mother's more enlightened views will rub off on her. At any rate, I think it's good that her mother is treating her opinions respectfully, even though she disagrees.

[MuseRider]

28. Oops, I totally misread that.

Sorry.

[Snotcicles]

62. Just think only one more year till she can singup. And I'm sure we'll

Still be there. I mean we broke it we own it.

[No Exit]

23. Your answer is the best summary of it.

[blm]

2. My answer to Danielle - OIL PROFITS

Please explain how those people were killed protecting our freedom and not oil company profits.

[acmavm]

4. One does have to wonder if the 11th grader ever paid attention during

any American History/Civics class that she ever sat through. And if she passed.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. Well, if it's any consolation, I was pro-Vietnam War when I was in

11th grade. That was because I was part Latvian and had relatives who had left East Germany, so the prevailing mood in my family was anti-Communist.

I wised up during college, but I was a regular little red baiter in high school.

And just look at me now. :evilgrin:

[FlemingsGhost]

12. Yup, when Danielle starts truly rebelling against mom and dad ...

and thinking for herself, she'll probably end up an anti-globalist communist lesbian.

:evilgrin:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

67. Any Eleventh grader who takes a stand

any stand, is poised for good things. She just needs to get a bit of redirection. She'll get it in college.

Passion and idealism are good things at that age. Let the wisdom come in as it will.

[babylonsister]

9. All depends on who was teaching her, and their slant. nt

[Ms. Toad]

16. To ask that question

you must have gone to (or have children or neighbors who go to) very different Nebraska schools than I did...

All my American History/Civics classes were taught by coaches who spent 40% of the class time each week either preparing for the big game (Friday) or celebrating/mourning the prior game's performance (Monday) - in addition they were all BIG promoters of the Vietnam war.

I ran away to college several states away to escape that mentality. Because of my unfortunate experiences in high school I avoided that field (History and anything related) in college, probably to my detriment, but the experience was too recent in my memory to waste my precious tuition money hoping that college profs would be different.

My daughter's (Ohio) school is better - but the World History teacher still has army recruitment bumper stickers on his desk.

[citizen snips]

22. She goes to a christian school.

That says it all.

[madeline_con]

84. They don't teach that.

I subbed in a Social Studies class once, and gave a couple minute "speech" about the DRC, Rwanda and Sierra Leone as they relate to the diamond trade. The class was studying Africa at the time.

Months later, when I went back to the same school, a girl stopped me in the hall and told me how that little talk had opened her eyes to a lot of the goings on in the world. :)

[okieinpain]

6. man I really respect the work she did, but FREEDOM is such bullshit

it's the typical response of the uninformed. God I wish I didn't have to think like that, but I get so sick of the bullshit.

[warrior1]

7. It wasn't freedom

It was WMD. Oh that and the oil.

[Trillo]

11. I was unable to discern whether the 11th grader's

answer was serious or sarcastic.

Me thinks she's a dualist.

[CatWoman]

13. Read her comments at the link:

The first time I saw Mike Luckovich’s drawing of the word “WHY?”, made up of the names of 2,000 troops killed in Iraq, was when my mother was putting it up on our refrigerator. It bothered me that no one did a response showing how others feel. On Nov. 8, I got an updated list of the names of the war dead and started writing them, spelling out “FREEDOM.” Six days later, it was done. I only worked on it in my free time at school. It took me about 12 hours to get it done, so needless to say I devoted many of my classes to this, and stayed late after school to work on it.

I didn’t take it home and show it to my mother until I had prints made. She and I have different views of things. She said that, as a mother, she didn’t like it that so many people have been killed. She was not happy when I placed my work next to Luckovich’s “WHY?” on the fridge, but it hasn’t been taken down. I may seem as if I am too young to have an opinion on matters like these. I am not saying that my opinion is right, for an opinion is just that — someone’s views on something. But, like a child’s voice, an opinion is often not heard. DANIELLE ANSLEY Danielle, 17, of Fairburn, is an 11th-grader at Arlington Christian School.

[mwb970]

59. It was basically a knee-jerk response.

She has no way of understanding what she is saying. She is too young and sheltered. It reminds me of Britney Spears' inane remark in F911.

[bettyellen]

8. of course this response is just a slogan + a stolen creative idea...

but Mike was classy to post it, even if it doesn't really begin to answer his question.

[Eric J in MN]

10. Secret prisons and death squads are not the ingredients of freedom.

nt

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

14. "Danielle is an 11th grader at Arlington Christian Academy".

That statement sums it up for me. She's a Kool-Aid drinker...

[Mabus]

68. Maybe her mom, who put up the "WHY?" on the fridge,

should think about taking her daughter out of that Christian Academy and look for another private school that teaches critical thinking. Her poor mom.

[txindy]

86. Maybe her mom could also point out something else to her daughter

That if they lived in Iraq, the newly-'free' daughter would no longer be allowed to attend school, let alone a Christian Academy. Girls aren't worth educating, according to the newly-'free'.

Yea, freedom. :eyes:

[uppityperson]

15. I guess the dead are free from this world

that's all I can figure out.

[Oversea Visitor]

17. Only logical answer

As we all know the rest are lies.

A simple photo essay that we all see so often on DU will help the person to understand the kind of FREEDOM that the Iraqies now had.

[Hope springs eternal]

18. Don't be so harsh

Fact is, there are millions of people who truly do believe that America cares and actively advances freedom and human rights. She's not evil, she's innocent. Wouldn't it be great if she were right?

[Lex]

20. It would be great if she were right, but she's not. She's naive.

And most Americans have the exact same ability to think through what we are doing in Iraq as a junior in high school does.

Sadly, that is as aware of the world as they will ever be.

[FlemingsGhost]

21. 15/16 year old Iraqis are being bombed into "freedom."

Meanwhile, 15/16 year old Danielle holds fast to her ignorance, er ... "innocence."

God Bless America.

[CatWoman]

27. um, pardon me but I must have had an out-of-body experience

and posted that this girl was evil while I was at it.

I'll try to be more careful next time.

Then, that might have been my evil twin. The Bitch!!

She's ALWAYS posting mean shit and calling people evil using my USERID.

[manic expression]

45. She's not innocent

she's just brainwashed. And dumb. I'm in a grade above her, and there's no reason to be so blind to reality, especially when that means blindness to 100,000 innocent people's deaths.

America does not care and actively opposes freedom and human rights. That's the truth. If she actually looked at history and current events, she'd see that this is pretty obvious.

I guess they didn't teach her that in her Christian Academy...:rofl:

(on edit) sorry about the reactions you seem to be getting (from me as well).

[Crunchy Frog]

52. I noticed from her posts

that she seems to write and think at about a sixth grade level (although there are definitely sixth graders who write and think on a higher level than that). She claims to be someone who reads and thinks and pays attention to current events, but I've noticed that there are many DUers of roughly the same age (or younger) who manage to write and think on a completely adult level.

I'm not exactly sure what my point is, but the people on that blog are falling all over themselves to praise this semiliterate child for her intelligence and thoughtfulness, and I'm just not seeing it. I see post like yours and am reminded that teenagers are in fact capable of putting their thoughts together in a coherent fashion.

I admire the child's dedication to her beliefs, but she needs to do more work at informing herself, and her school should have done a better job of teaching basic spelling and grammar, as well as critical thinking. I guess "real" Christians want to keep their flocks as stupid and malleable as possible.

[TheBaldyMan]

48. unfortunately

the poor kid sounds like she'll sign up for the armed forces. Too many idealists joined up after 9/11 only to find out the hard way how messed up things are thanks to Bushco et al.

(Off Topic)how long would you serve if you joined up after 9-11 were stop-lossed and eventually your period of indenture finished? Shouldn't some of those guys be coming out of the forces round about now?

[Crunchy Frog]

53. No she won't.

She already posted that she "can't" because she has athsma. My guess is that she probably could if she really wanted to, but probably really doesn't want to. The military is pretty strapped right now, and they've been lowering alot of their standards just to get more bodies in the door. I definitely have more respect for war supporters when they actually are willing to put their lives on the line for what they believe in, even if I can't respect the belief itself. No such respect for those who do not have that willingness.

[txindy]

87. Wouldn't it be great if girls in Iraq were still allowed in school?

Or got to have their own opinions?

Oh, wait, they had all of that before we 'freed' them.

Wait, what was the American girl's informed opinion, again? Because she's already indicated her own mother has told her about 'freedom' in Iraq, she just chooses to ignore the truth. That's not innocence. That's nonsense. No, she's not evil, just willfully ignorant.

[Crunchy Frog]

24. A link to a really great flash movie linked to on there.

http://theunitedamerican.blogs.com/Movies/2000A/2000.html

It takes awhile to load, but it's well worth watching.

I also can't believe all the vile RW garbage being posted over there.

[CatWoman]

29. LOL

That's my "entertainment" :D

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. When I Was In 11th Grade I Probably Wouldn't Have Known Better Either

I give her kudos for a witty response regardless of how naive that message may be. I'm sure as she grows older and learns more the realities of what we are dealing with she will hopefully see things more clearly.

In the meantime, however, I cannot, nor will not, start putting down 11th graders for not yet fully understanding the political landscape that took many of us well into our adult years to begin to awaken to.

On edit: OP, I understand you did not directly put down an 11th grader. That part of my post is to express my opinion in counter to those posters in here that do feel the need to put down 11th graders.

[The Gunslinger]

26. Let's see what happens a year later

When she can enlist to fight for "freedom?"
I bet she'll be holding "freedom" signs in her expensive college dorm room.

[B Calm]

30. You think Dannielle will sign up for military service after high school?

Me neither!

[FVZA_Colonel]

31. My responses to several commenters:

To Semper Fi:


Facts? Isn't the idea that they died for "Freedom" more of an opinion than a fact? I'm not saying her opinion is incorrect (in fact, I am proud that she wanted to share her beliefs about the war publically in a way that didn't involve screaming as so often happens with pro and anti-war people), but I am not sure it ought to be classified as a strict fact.



Sodapants: I highly doubt that more of the "capitalism" practiced by many of the multinational corporations will help the people of the developing world. It isn't just people "who get to direct it from the palace where there are no 6 mile potato lines," that dislike capitalism as it is now being practiced. Secondly, no progressive I know has actually claimed that the governments of places like North Korea and China are good things; perhaps ones you know have, but I am stating what I have encountered. Finally, there is absolutely nothing wrong with ML asking the question he did; if you support Danielle's right to answer it, I would hope you'd support ML's right to post it in the first place.



Joe: yes, Al-Qaeda is attacking us now that we are in Iraq. However, as is now theorized by, amongst other items, the 9/11 Commission Report and the Downing Street Memoes, Iraq was not involved in Bin Ladin's attacks on America, so that motivation for being in Iraq in the first place is not as stable as it once was. And if you support the idea of removing brutal dictatorships, something you felt justified the invasion in '03, should we send troops into North Korea, Iran and Pakistan, as those are known to be countries where large numbers of citizens are opressed due to their gender or religion, amongst other things.
...................................................................................................................................................................

What do you think?

[Crunchy Frog]

33. Good for you!

I'm too much of a chicken shit to go over there and actually wade into a "discussion" with right wingers. You have alot more guts than I do.

[FVZA_Colonel]

34. I don't think it's something I need to be praised for.

I enjoy debate, and this seemed like an interesting chance for one.

[CatWoman]

37. be warned, friend

Andy will give you the biggest headache of your life!!!

RW is pretty tame -- altho he's nothing but a glorified cheerleader. He's the most coherent of the group.

Sodapants, i believe, is Andy. Look for him to start calling us "pinkos".

It's pretty easy to post on that blog using any name you desire. And Andy, the Loon, takes full advantage of it.

[CatWoman]

35. Aw come on!!!!

it's fun :D

Jump right in!!

The water's fine :D

[Crunchy Frog]

36. Nah. The closest I like to get to that

is baiting freepers on here before they get tombstoned. I just think it's pointless to try to have a real discussion with them. Besides, it's more fun to get into fights with fellow progressives here at DU.

Maybe somebody else could wade in there and point out to the young lady how uninformed many of her opinions are.

She's astoundingly ill informed, and she's one of the kids who actually reads. Just imagine what the average kid who doesn't read is like.:scared:

[CatWoman]

39. you're 100 percent correct in that it's pointless debating with them

however, I like FIGHTING with them :D

[Crunchy Frog]

54. By the way, if you're still up,

I think we've got a real live one here, if you're interested in toying with it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2339179

These are the kinds of debates that I like. When the opponent is at a complete disadvantage, and will not be with us for long anyway. :D I enjoy fighting like a coward.:P

[CatWoman]

55. Hey, thanks

that thread is still up.

Do you ever sleep??? :D

[Crunchy Frog]

61. I do sleep. Sometimes I just get a little carried away

and can't tear myself away from DU. Anyway, it's my vacation.:D

[Crunchy Frog]

32. She has a few posts up there now.

She gives the impression of being a well meaning, but very innocent and uninformed child.

By Danielle

December 29, 2005 08:54 PM | Link to this

I think Im ahead of my years, I have been raised basically around people that are not of my age group, thats why I have the intrests I do, meaning I enjoy reading, history, and politics to going and being out and about. But every one how can you say that this war has helped no one! Look At the people in Iraq. GO look at it for yourself. They no longer hide for their lives!! They no longer fear being killed just because they made the wrong person mad!! They live more normal lives. Women now hold jobs, which before they never even drempt theyd live to see that day!!! How would you feel if all your life you feared that just one word and you could be dead?? That your family could be killed if just one person made some one angery.

How is it then, that we have accomplished, as so many say, nothing!

She's apparently confusing Iraq and Afghanistan. Doesn't realize that Iraq was just about the best Arab country from the standpoint of women holding jobs and getting educations and having basic freedoms which they are now losing with the rise of religious fundamentalism. Also seems there's alot more killing going on now than there was before the war.

By Danielle

December 29, 2005 09:01 PM | Link to this

One thing I learned while doing this, I had the cause of death for each person. Did you know that they arent fightng fair> Most of them were from suicide bombs. You think that because we send people to fight is wrong. Look at them there are people in this world that simply go and attack with out giving us a fair chance. Personally I dont want those people to get power again, Do you?? People say that the people over there dont want our troops, but when in fact people I know there say that they are all so happy to see them. I still believe in our troops. And I will never loose faith in them.

If they were fighting fair, they would have the same weapons that we do, and far more of our soldiers would be dead.

I would go and post this stuff over there, but I just can't handle the thought of debating with RWers. Also wouldn't want to hurt the young lady's feelings when she's trying so hard.

[Charlie Brown]

40. Women held jobs and enjoyed many freedoms under Saddam

I don't think Danielle is as intelligent as she thinks.

[Maestro]

64. Clue to Danielle

In war, rarely do people fight "fair." The whole purpose of war is to kill as many as the others as possible.

[Charlie Brown]

38. I guess Danielle is a supporter of the Shiite Alliance

and their minions who have been in charge of Iraq for the past year.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

41. Then you probably didn't miss this gem:

[CatWoman]

42. that was yesterday's toon

here is tomorrow's:

[manic expression]

43. And as a 12th grader

I can safely say that that 11th grader is an idiot and completely wrong in every way.

I don't mean just kind of wrong. I mean 100% incorrect, as in without a shred of validity.

Freedom? YEAH RIGHT!

[Lex]

44. I applaud you.

I was so naive and ill-informed when I was an 11th grader, or a 12th grader for that matter.

Embarrassing to think about how naive I was about politics back then.

[manic expression]

47. Thank you

It's kind of surprising to get applause, since I don't consider age a factor in politics, really. There are many politically informed people my age, but I think they are few and far between. However, I think this same ratio holds true for adults as well.

Thanks again. And, IMO, there's nothing to be embarrassed about at all, because political awareness comes to people in different ways at different points.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. Hey, Danielle...who's going to be made free by what we're doing in Iraq?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

50. Perhaps this 16-year old could provide Dannielle...

with a much needed dose of reality.

"AP: U.S. Teen Runs Off to Iraq by Himself"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051229/ap_on_re_mi_ea/journey_to_iraq

[DaHoot]

51. I'm in 11th grade as well

and one reason I think kids as a whole seem so naive is because we're getting lazier. Most of them just don't care to look up facts and information for themselves and want to be spoon fed the info which sadly (ESPECIALLY here in the suburban Houston area) is becoming more and more fox news, right-wing propoganda. We are the generation who as a whole demand convenience and refuse to research our own facts. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've heard from students getting ready to go out into the world.

[newyawker99]

56. Hi DaHoot!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Javaman]

57. here is a simple reply to Dannielle...

You are now probably old enough to enlist, get your parent sig, go to your recruiter and go take part in that freedom you so freely throw about. In the mean time, shut the fuck up, get the shit out of your ears, scales off your eyes, stop watching tv (especially fox), stop living in fear, read counter points to morons* stupidity, then write me and tell me what you think.
however, Dannielle, if you truly want to spread freedom, join the peace corp. it's amazing what happens when you don't shoot at people and provide them with better ways to grow food, have clean water and provide basic medical attention. That brings freedom, the freedom to choose. And if after all of this they still choose something different than democracy, then that is their right too.
That is freedom.

Why is youth wasted on the young.

[LWolf]

58. I think this is great.

Danielle is learning to express herself in the face of opposition. As she matures and learns more about the many layers of freedom, she will be well-prepared to truly defend it.

If she were "ignored" or lambasted, the povs she is opposing would simply become the enemy. Instead, she is experiencing mutual sharing and "listening" to different povs.

[Straight Shooter]

60. Danielle's level of ignorance ensures that there will be more wars.

She thinks she is politically savvy. If you mention Watergate and Iran-Contra to her, do you think she would have a clue as to the players and how they are back in business in the bush administration? If she were my daughter, I would be appalled by her refusal to look any deeper than the surface of rhetoric and empty slogans.

Fool them once, shame on you. Fool them twice, record profits!

[Maestro]

63. Obviously influenced by ignorant parents.

My question would be, "Freedom from what?"

[XanaDUer]

65. No, her mom hung up the original cartoon

and is bothered by the deaths.

[Maestro]

69. Really?

So her mom is against the war but she isn't. Somebody else is influencing her then. I work with 11 year olds. They are not interested in things like this unless someone is "educating" them on these topics. Obviously she has been poorly educated.

[CatWoman]

73. Maybe the quality of education has something to do with it?

Georgia ranks 40th out of the 50 states:

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/package.jsp?floc=ns-tos-feat-b-01&name=fte/smartstates/smartstates

[Maestro]

74. Not sure.

I'm just impressed that my state, Texas, is in the top half, barely.

[Mabus]

75. She's at a private school

Georgia's ranking may explain that part of it. Here's her school: http://www.arlingtonchristian.org/index.htm, or at least it is the Arlington Christian Academy in Fairburn, Georgia (where she indicated she was from in her letter).

[Mabus]

76. I agree with you in part but disagree in part

She's an 11th grader not an 11 year-old. She's almost an adult, chronologically at least.

I think she's either listening to her friends/teachers/peers, rebelling against her mother or hasn't developed critical thinking skills.

[Maestro]

78. Sorry, I'm a bit tired.

No she is able to form her opinions. Perhaps she has been listening to too much Faux News and rather conservative school system which you alluded to earlier.

[Mabus]

79. You aren't alone

I've noticed several people thought Danielle was 11 and not in the 17-18 age group.

But again, I do you agree with you concerning her influences. My 18 year old nephew bounces between my liberal-leaning family and his father's more conservative environment. He hears a lot of varying opinions and makes up his own mind. Critical thinking, looking at the evidence and making your own decisions are an important part of growing up.

For some people I guess it's easier going through life not having to think for yourself. Whatever influences this young woman is using to get through life they aren't pointing her in the right the direction.

[XanaDUer]

77. She goes to, "a Christian school"

However, since all major religions except the Southern Baptists came out against this illegal war, it might be at school that she is hearing this and it is a SB school..?

:shrug:

The article does not say.

[Mabus]

80. Non-denominational, according to one website

Arlington Christian School

"Non-Denominational Christian Education for K-12 in Fairburn, Georgia."

http://www.arlingtonchristian.org/

source: http://www.crosssearch.com/Education_and_Growth/Organizations/Primary_Schools/98516.php

That is if this is the same school. According to the letter she's from Fairburn and this is the closest name match I could find for that city.

It has to be the same. Here's the information "DANIELLE ANSLEY Danielle, 17, of Fairburn, is an 11th-grader at Arlington Christian School" from http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/shared-blogs/ajc/luckovich/entries/2005/12/29/response_to_why.html

[uppityperson]

66. My question too. Here's what she says...

"Freedom" is just to simplistic an answer, what does she mean?
She says:
"Hi Every one, I just wanted to thank Mike for putting my drawing up, and to say that Freedom means that its okay for us to have different opinions bout things, and I am really glad we can, other wise we could never improve anything, because we would never be challenging anything."

So, these soldiers died so we can have different opinions bout things? I thought we could do that without having to kill thousands of people, not sure how their deaths made it more possible to have different opinions.

[Maestro]

70. True

How can soliders dying in Iraq give us more freedom of opinion?

[CatWoman]

71. Actually, I applauded her view about differing opinions

however, she and a bunch of her adult cheerleaders have turned the whole thread into a high school sock op.

She actually accused me of "retreating to a cave", or some such nonsense.

[uppityperson]

72. At least one of those cheerleaders isn't worth debating

Doesn't want to debate or discuss, simply stay close minded and insulting. Oh well. Can't please them all. I am happy to talk with teens, see what they think and why, but they, as well as adults, need to be able to explain more than simply saying and idea such as "freedom" since this idea can have so many different meanings. I like talking with teens, hearing the idealism, but if they cannot express more than a catch-phrase, they haven't truly thought out the issues.

[citizen snips]

82. I agree.

[ovidsen]

81. Sheesh

It's quite the free for all over at the AJC. Some of their wingnuts would do Free-whatitsname proud.

[CatWoman]

83. cause they are fucking MORANS!!!

:hi:

[Redstone]

85. So, when is Danielle planning to go to the recruiting office and sign up?

As an 11th grader, she's not far from being old enough.

Redstone