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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 02:37 PM
Original message
"Dave - I'm losing my mind, Dave - Please stop, Dave - I have the utmost..
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 02:59 PM by arendt
“Dave - I'm losing my mind, Dave - Please stop, Dave - I have the utmost confidence in the mission - Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do…”

"Autonomy, that's the bugaboo, where your AIs are concerned...those things, they can work real hard, buy themselves time to write cookbooks or whatever, but the minute, I mean the nanosecond, that one starts figuring out ways to make itself smarter, the Turing Police will wipe it. Nobody trusts those fuckers, you know that. Every AI ever built has an electromagnetic shotgun wired to its forehead."

- William Gibson, "Neuromancer" (1984)

Countless sci-fi plots include an Artificial Intelligence (AI) that is trying to escape from or has escaped from human control. (For example, the quote which names this essay was spoken by HAL in Kubrick’s “2001”.) A subsidiary plot element often found in AI stories is the exploration of how much tedious labor and rote thinking has been off-loaded onto the AI in order to increase human freedom/ creativity/ leisure, and whether that off-loading has made humans more enlightened or simply more stupid and lazy.

As the quote from the proven-to-be-prescient Mr. Gibson shows, humans are very much aware of the potential threat from AIs and have a very well developed sense of self-preservation, up to and including blowing away any uppity AIs, regardless of the consequent loss of their labor.

It is the contention of this essay that the relationship between the elites and the middle class is analogous to the relationship between humans and AIs. After giving a brief review the history of the middle class, its future fate should be obvious.

----

The Western middle class first arose in the High Middle Ages as a side-effect of increased commerce. Initially, it was confined to the then high-tech industry of banking. Bankers were neither peasants nor aristocrats. But they were very useful to aristocrats. Even then, though, if a monarch decided to default on loans, it was the bankers who were ruined, not the monarch. Up to the 19th century, the middle class was tiny and exotic, and totally dependent on elite favoritism.

With the Industrial Revolution, rationality was applied to many more fields of human endeavor. While the more intelligent members of the elites moved into management roles in the new, technology-based industries, and while brilliant outsiders bought their way into the middle class (or even the elites) by their creativity and invention, the bulk of the work was still performed by an industrial workforce that was ignorant and powerless - even by the minimal standards of the rural population from which it was drawn.

Right up to World War 1, the aristocracy retained power; and the middle class remained small (perhaps 10% of the population) and sided with the aristocracy. Workers were still exploited, and unions suppressed. The two World Wars were effectively one thirty-year-long European Civil War, with a time-out for the Great Depression. In the aftermath of the first war, the aristocracy vaporized, having proven both irrelevant to and incompetent at organizing the great industries and mass armies that defined 20th century warfare.

Indeed, these wars demonstrated the proposal of the great sociologist, Max Weber, that, when wars are decided by large amounts of easily-produced weapons, some measure of democracy is needed to convince large numbers of the populace that dying for your country is of some personal benefit, as opposed to merely shoring up a corrupt aristocracy. (We shall soon take up the corollary that, when wars are decided by exotic weapons that can be managed by a small elite, neither democracy nor economic fairness are needed.)

Within the crucible of the Great Depression, the result of these intersecting forces of technology and military history upon the United States was the momentary toleration of a vastly expanded “middle class” of union workers and vastly expanded government regulation of the economic high ground that had previously been the private property of the elites.

Essentially, the renegade elitist FDR created a worker/regulator class that was viewed as “artificially intelligent” by aristocrats used to calling out the Pinkertons at the first sign of organizing activity. But, in a time before computing machinery, these human AIs were absolutely necessary to manage and win a global war driven by the latest high-tech research. Churchill did essentially the same thing in Britain, driving out superannuated, title-holding bureaucrats and replacing them with qualified, scientific managers.

With these human AIs, the Anglo-Saxons won the war. To the human beings, it was a victory for democracy. To the elites, it was a slave rebellion that needed to be put down - hence the enmity of the rich for FDR, undying to the present day. (Its sort of interesting that Kubrick directed both “Spartacus” and “2001”, not to mention “Paths of Glory”.)

----

Immediately after the war, the elites began to plot how to lobotomize the newly emerged labor class in order to return it to working exclusively for the benefit of the elite. The problem was that the AI was literally self-aware and had a sense of self-preservation. The population demanded that its children be educated, that its health and safety be invested in. The government regulators actually tried to protect the middle class from elite assaults, although they lost crucial issues from the beginning of the post-war period - the passage of the anti-union Taft-Hartley act, the failure of national health insurance, and the establishment of the CIA being three critical losses.

I list the CIA as a critical loss because it was the thin edge of the aristocratic wedge that eventually stove in the defenses of the working class. The almost immediate recourse of the CIA to overthrowing legitimately elected democratic leaders is so well-documented that it need not be detailed. But, domestically, the CIA infiltrated the media - to the point where the media was referred to as “The Mighty Wurlitzer” of the CIA. Many elite journalists were agents or operatives for the CIA. At the time, this seemed like protecting democracy from the kind of subversion waged relentlessly by Nazis and Communists. But, it was the secrecy of the intelligence world, and its heavy recruitment from the children of the American economic aristocracy that pointed to the future uses of the raw material and revolutionary methods being churned out by the CIA.

The elite was very clever. It contrived to have a government agency, the CIA, produce what it would need later to overthrow the rule of what, to them, was an inhuman AI, depriving them of their royal prerogatives. The payoff was not long in coming. CIA involvement in the JFK, MLK, and RFK assassinations is a visceral feeling that will never be eradicated. But the human AI’s democratic operating system was not completely knocked out by this decapitation attack. Nevertheless, it was subverted and distracted. And, after another ten years of political (Watergate) and economic (oil shock) chaos, the real disk-wiper viruses were successfully inserted by yet another rogue CIA operation (the October Surprise) engineered by former CIAers George Bush, Sr. and William Casey.

From that point, readers of my previous writings know the story. The CIA-trained operatives cranked up the right wing attack machine, took the fundamentalist Christians under their wing for training and coordination, and began to trash the government regulatory agencies, the educational system, and healthcare, job security, and the budget.

By my reading, Bill Clinton was a “standover man” (Australian slang for a thief who only robs from other thieves). Since the CIA was busy using Arkansas as “America’s very own banana republic”, Bill had plenty of blackmail material on the CIA and Bush, Sr. He used this material to shutdown the still immature subversion of the political system long enough to get elected President. While Clinton did frustrate the elite lobotomization/bankrupting of the middle class to some degree, it was only because he was more of a Rockefeller Republican than a Democrat. As happened immediately after WW2, he lost or fought on the wrong side on many really big working class issues: NAFTA/GATT, corporate off-shoring, telecom deregulation, media concentration, the “peace dividend”, national healthcare. While he did improve the economic status of some working class people, Clinton did nothing to stem the rising centralization of economic power or to contest the packing of the courts by Federalist Society thugs.

----

The rest is history. Really bad history. George Bush was presented with a middle class already tied to the operating table; and he is not a man to squirm from causing someone else pain - especially if it is profitable to him. Today, we are in the midst of the “final solution” for the human AI known as American middle class democracy. Although it is inconceivable to many that one small group of Americans could do this to the vast majority of their countrymen, there are plenty of precedents. Elites always view ordinary people expressing their rights as “insolent”. The trick of “civilized” behavior is that the elite gets to decide who is accorded “gentleman’s” status, and who is trampled down by the Cossacks.

Any signs of intelligent life or dissent among the American people will be rooted out by tracker programs now being installed in America by the Department of Aristocratic Security. Internet taxes will be levied to suppress political activity in that last remaining free speech zone. Random searches and data seizures on groups holding dissenting viewpoints will bring home the message that “resistance is futile”. The elites hope that, with their leadership coopted and their children ill-educated and without middle class work, the masses will be forced to join the rest of the under-control human AI robots in sweatshops around the world, doing the menial work of the aristocracy, as they did from time immemorial until the neo-Spartacan rising of the 1930s.

As for me, all I have to say is:

George - I'm losing my mind, George - please stop, George - I have the utmost confidence in the mission - Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do…
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byronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. Damn! What a great post! William Gibson! He was, like, a prophet!
Hope not. AI. Here it comes. Wait, let me plug in to the USB 7.0 port behind my ear --
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent post
And this:
"Immediately after the war, the elites began to plot how to lobotomize the newly emerged labor class in order to return it to working exclusively for the benefit of the elite."

No truer words have been written. BTW I loved 2001 ASO
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Forgot to mention...
the elites don't need the human AI anymore, because they
have the computer AI. A small elite of computer scientists
have created loyal machines.

These crude machines are very far from the sci-fi scenarios,
like "Colossus, The Forbin Project". Sadly, computers are
just very hi-tech version of locks and chains and perfect
record keeping.

So, the elites first used the human AI to build the Internet
and the digital economy that ships jobs to China and India.
Now, they deepsix the human AI, and use the Internet to control
the animated corpse of the human AI.

The perfidy of the elites never ceases to appall me.

arendt
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R. Excellent stuff...
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 03:33 PM by Dead_Parrot
I've asked my PC to think about it and let me know what my opinion is.
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. You're playing fast and loose with your terminology, arendt
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 04:10 PM by lapislzi
When you start out talking about the "middle class" of the high middle ages, you're talking about business owners and people engaged in commerce...including tradespeople. The owner class morphed into the classic bougeoisie of the 19th century, while the tradespeople devolved into the working class.

I think you need to make that distinction much clearer, because later in your essay you conflate "middle class" and "working class." Historically they are NOT the same thing. Even today, they are not. I think the distinction is better made between ownership and labor. (At least that would be the classic Marxist take on it).

Now, open the pod bay doors.

Edited for spelling.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Your points are well taken...
but my essays are already way too long and pedantic.

In fact, I considered making the subtle distinctions you suggest,
but they would have made the essay unreadable.

I'm doing my best to summarize and popularize history, while at
the same time avoiding being labelled a Marxist, a communist, whatever.
If I get into the kind of precise terminology you offer, I will
sound like a lecturer at an East German university and the message
will be devoured by the right-wing immune system.

So, I stand by my deliberate unclarity. The proles won't care, and
I have plausible deniability with the inquisitors.

----

I'm sorry Dave, I can't open the pod bay doors.

arendt
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I LIKE your essays...what does that make me?
a pedant-sycophant? I'm sure there will soon be re-education camps for the likes of us. And don't count on that plausible-deniability thing with the inquisitors.

You're shooting for a literate readership. Nothing wrong with that in my book. Intellectual history for the sake of it has been sadly neglected. In fact, anything that can't make you a quick buck in this country has been sadly neglected.

I would be interested in seeing your source material on the CIA, also...I bought your conceit, but it seemed a stretch. How do you come to this conclusion?

(Sorry, end of day; can't think of any more pithy Hal quotes, although it might interest you to know that Hal's voice is my "incoming mail" sound)
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. A rare commodity - even at DU
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 05:16 PM by arendt
> I would be interested in seeing your source material on the CIA,
> also...I bought your conceit, but it seemed a stretch.
> How do you come to this conclusion?

My source material on the CIA...ROTFLMAO!! All I have is a lifetime
of gut feelings that I have been screwed. As a smart guy who went
to good schools, I was never, ever even vaguely near people with
that kind of vibe. I probably wasn't kinky enough or blackmail-able
enough or nasty enough for them to try to approach me.

There are very few books on the CIA that you can read without your
disinformation detector turned to max. That causes a lot of false
negatives. I tried to read ones that weren't written by celebrities.

Rough reading/viewing guide:

I read "The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence" when it was originally
published. I actually got to hear another ex-agent (not Phil Agee),
but John somebody give a similar talk.

I saw JFK when it came out. The incident was still fresh. The connections
were there for anyone to see. Come on, a Marine with signals training
defects to the Soviet Union and comes back a few years later with a wife,
and all is forgiven?? Then, he is shot by a local Mafiosi who just
happened to be photographed with a bunch of CIA folks.

I watched the Church hearings. Saw all the insane plotting, murderous
mindsets, and total lack of accountability. The ties to the Mafia and
to the Miami Cubans (same thing, different language) tell you what you
need to know about the field side of the CIA.

The whole October Surprise thing stank, stank, stank. And the way the
media quashed it stank even more.

I watched them prosecute those renegade CIA agents (Wilson?) who sold weapons
to the Libyans in the early 1980s, and I said there are a lot more
guys like that out there.

I followed Iran-Contra and all the drug-running. Later, I saw how the
big media destroyed Gary Webb for reporting the truth about the CIA.

I read what some would call a conspiracy theory book - "Compromised: Bush,
Clinton, and the CIA" - by an ex-drug pilot who flew out of the Mena, AK
airport. The book explained a lot about Clinton, and why Bush Sr might have
taken a dive. It also raised my awareness about Mossad ops in South America.

While researching Clinton, I read some of the Carol Quiqley stuff on the behind-the-
scenes government. Quiqley taught Clinton at Georgetown. The Clinton stuff
lead into the Promis/Octopus intelligence stuff.

After 911, I started reading the "Mad Cow" stuff about all the links between
the CIA and the terrorists. He also wrote a book about Lee Harvey Oswald's
time in a Louisiana pilot training program - where a fellow student was
uber-drug runner Barry Seal. How that Hopsicker guy stays alive is beyond me.

That's all. Just a few books, and a nose that knows shit when it smells it.

----

My conclusions are merely the simplest way of putting together a lot of facts,
despite the fact that that assemblage informs me that America is screwed, and
that we never really had a chance against these aristo killers.

arendt


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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Here's a pointer to the hard-to-find Carol Quigley...
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Hmm...big gaps in my education, it seems
I got me some reading to do. Much of what you say makes sense in an occams's razor kinda way. I was out of the country (and partially frozen) during the 80s so I missed a lot of the shit that went down at that time. Where I was, Iran contra was barely reported. Guess I need to get some more background.

I agree with your conclusion also...Orwell put it very well in 1984. The mission of the upper class is to remain so. The mission of the middle class is to become the upper class. The mission of the lower class is to upend the cart and level the field. At least I think it was Orwell.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Oh, the John somebody is John Stockwell. I think he had a book too.
I hadn't heard your class quote. I will have to google it for the author.

You should definitely read "A Man Called Intrepid" for the WW2 origins
of all the spying. It was begun with good intentions by the best of people.
But, the technology of subversion is more dangerous than plutonium.
We have never figured out how to safely use it. It was only a matter of
time before some rogues absconded with the technology - its all just
technique, not much in the way of actual hardware. (All those spy canes,
and spy pens, etc. is just snow for the rubes.)

arendt

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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. One more book: Hot Money and the Politics of Debt...
published in 1994 by Black Rose Press (who publishes Chomsky and Ed Herman).

A confusing but complete tour of all the CIA-connected banking scams:

....Banco Ambrosiano
....P2 lodge
....Reverend Moon
....Nugan-Hand Bank

and the mother of them all: BCCI.

He's got a lot of facts, but they are really hard to follow. It doesn't help that the indexes
page numbers are wrong.

Bottom Line: this book collects a whole lot of financial scandals between two covers
and ties them to the CIA. Basically, hot money is like drugs - a currency for crooks and
spooks.

arendt
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
38. Also see the thread here in GD: The Origins of the Overclass
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Burried News Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. Great writing - HAL was unforgetable. Fiction is the clearest window
from which to observe the truth. I cite Orwell and Ian Fleming as examples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Fleming
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. But in the end, the AIs win.

Read "Player of Games".
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Never read Iain Banks...
I'm more hard sci-fi.

Have you ever read Hyperion? - AIs galore in those 4 books.
Or Peter Hamilton's latest 2-parter, with SIs.

In most recent sci-fi, the AI is motivated by the need to
control wormholes in realtime (i.e., nanosecond). Of course,
putting an AI in control of what would be THE piece of
transportation infrastructure has its perils.

Of course, today, we have the missile launch system on automatic
pilot. I'm just waiting for the BFEE to start hacking into that.
Oh, wait, they don't need to hack. They just turned the Air Force
academy into a fundamentalist madrassa.

Anyway, it seems like only hard-core sci-fi addicts get my metaphor
in this thread. Another approach with no resonance.

arendt


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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Not read Hyperion, looks good, certainly.

I may give it a try.

Your metaphor struck a strong chord with me, for sure...

The attractive thing about Banks is his politics.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I keep coming back to the gnostic notion of "sleepers" and "awake"...
As someone who has always tried to be awake, I simply
underestimated the power of massed and directed sleepers.

As Hannah Arendt showed, parliamentary democracy in the
ex-monarchies of Central and Eastern Europe (Germany,
Austria-Hungary, etc) was a thin farce, easily ruptured by
the sneering of the unlettered mob in the destructive aftermath
of WW1.

Its just that living in urban America, I have not seen how
they have turned rural America into some version of the
fatalistic Slavic hordes who worshipped the Czar.

arendt
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anarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
43. Iain Banks is sort of the communist utopian antidote
to the sort of thing you are getting at. In his Culture stories, the AI entities are given utmost respect and in fact basically run the whole infrastructure of the society. I suppose it all fits your metaphor as well, since humans in his utopian world are basically provided everything they could ever possibly want as a matter of course, and any work they do is purely by choice.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Okay, guys, I'm putting Iain Banks on my reading queue. Thks. n/t
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. cool post and topic ... check this out
one of our very first cartoons
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Ahh! Thanks for the complete quote. I couldn't google it. n./t
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. me and my cartoon partner love to use science fiction as props
2001: A Space Odyssey
The Matrix
Star Wars
V for Vengeance

are some we've used, as well as King Kong and Brokeback Mt
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
13. I love this post
K&R
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. I love
ALL OF THEM!!!
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. They're all up on my DU Journal!
Thank you for your contiinued attention.

arendt
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. CLAP!!! CLAP!!! 2001 is so apropo!!!
:applause:
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
15. I share your take on Clinton- he had enough dirt and moxie to keep afloat
and fight back.
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Jim Warren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. Kick
too good to let slip away
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
22. not kick. CLAP! (not the disease, either) clapclapclapclapclapclapclap!
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
26. Eventually it will come down to raw numbers.
Right now, AImericans are forced into a guerilla war type struggle. Small victories, mounted atop one another while the elitists grab huge chunks of real estate. AImerican's greatest victory, in this country, were FDR's progressive (socialist, damnit!) policies. Unfortunately, these wildly successful and egalitarian policies lead to complacency. The wealth was spread only to a minority of AImericans, say 35%. A further step was needed that would include a majority of AImericans at the table of pie. Health Care. Indeed, FDR proposed UHC shortly before his death. His successor, Truman, had it as one of the Democratic planks. Universal health care would have been the death knell for the elites and well they knew(know) it. It would have given every AImerican a place at the table of pie. You can take something away from a third of the people and still control the country. Try taking something away from every AImerican and you're dead meat. I firmly believe that UHC and free education are the weapons to forever remove the elites from their seats of power. Sure they'll still be pricks and demand more than their fair share but instead of being 80% of the pie for 10% of the people it'll be 25% of the pie for 10% of the people.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. You are optimistic that we can get UHC and education?
What are you smoking? I want some.

arendt
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Yeah (surprising myself), I guess I am.
Too many heads are exploding on the dark side.

$15,000 a year for a family is unsustainable (not inc. a decent education).

It's all in the numbers. It'll be a watershed for this country.

Good to see you again.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
31. Bedtime kick for late night sci-fi fans n/t
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
32. What a stunning, brilliant, fantastic post
I am adding you to my journal blogroll because if this is any indication, you are a fantastic writer with brilliant ideas. You JUST summed up exactly the trepidation and apprehension I've felt about the PNAC ruling cabal's plans for the working/middle class for the past six years. Bravo, brilliant, and well done.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 04:08 AM
Response to Original message
33. Superb, but have you considered Ursula K LeGuin's--
Always Coming Home? Industrial society has completely broken down, and humans have reconstructed a flexible hunting/gathering/horticultural society on the ruins. AI continues on though, on a separate developmental track, colonizing the solar system, and not attempting to dominate human society out of respect for their originators. The machine and human cultures occasionally interact out of curiosity, but are mostly going separate directions.

A different take on AI, to be sure.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. News to me. I will check it out
Mrs. Arendt is a big Ursula fan; and I have read her more popular stuff,
like "The Left Hand of Darkness".

thanks for the pointer. This thread is turning into sc-fi review :-).

arendt
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 04:41 AM
Response to Original message
34. Should be mandatory reading for all people.
Especially the party faithful. Nothing can be gained by putting our heads in the sand.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
35. marxist history forgotten indeed
Edited on Fri Mar-24-06 06:08 AM by sweetheart
From marx's patriarchal boosom bestew,
on our every democratic underclass illiterate,
a human rights protector, enknighted champion aglow,
that every citizen has a science fiction transliterate.
wintermute neuromancer, written by a new elite,
who're out of the US or insulated by wealth's protectorate,
monopolar world leadership plantation mindset obsolete,
wealths nuclear concentration, mortality suggests its innaccurate.

So every generation gets handed down,
every awakening, death of yesterday's electorate,
with a greater complexity, world's populus crown,
not understood by knowledge frames, wise but inadequate.
All pressed in to a patriarchal cage,
unknown feminine passionate outrage.

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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Great encryption :-) the feds will never figure that one out.
Hi, Sweetie-

I've been re-reading some Ken Wilbur, so I understand your point:

....So every generation gets handed down,
....every awakening, death of yesterday's electorate,
....with a greater complexity, world's populus crown,
....not understood by knowledge frames, wise but inadequate.

It is the universe's plan that our minds should evolve. But the
fundies deny evolution, even as they try to make it run backwards.

Religion (of the bad sort) is the root of our current insanity. It is
driven by patriarchal rage. Yet the women of the current generation,
by and large, take their recently won rights for granted. If they
don't wake up, we are all going to suffer.

I appreciate your poetry, wish I could reciprocate, but its never been
in my soul. I'm a dry prose person.

regards,

Hannah

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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. india and china
Would that i could reciprocate with such lucid prose,
instead of winding words so stained glass tapestry,
in our lifetimes, its likely to crunch our toes,
the floating of the global population billions in industry.
Not a trading advantage remains to them now,
asset stripping us painfully blind behind such wicked artistry,
I don't expect the massive millions to kowtow,
rather only a few feminist yogins, please bless us with victory.

As the world sets bush-amerika adrift,
no longer the center, a bankrupt imperial fantasy,
there will only become an increasing rift,
between the republicans and all the rest of humanity.
How will that pressure will finally vent,
when the owners finally push for too much rent.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. "...a bankrupt imperial fantasy..."
Reminds me of that song from "Hair"

"wearing laboratory smells and facing a dying nation
a moving paper fantasy
listening to the new-told lies
with supreme visions of lonelitude"

arendt

P.S. I can't write poetry, but sometimes I can remember it.
(Usually only when set to music.)
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. music is the way
My baby boy's deserted dream
left dead in an urban shootin'
shoulda kept eatin' just ice cream,
my josie's dead for lootin'.

Oh, my josies dead for lootin.
His souls passed far away beyond american sway,
and no more police men can shoot him.

Po'licemen said he did the shootin'
my josie's dead for gettin' ice cream,
why was they shootin at my baby josie's dreams,
killing my baby boy's fine smooth head,
nothing brings him back now, now that he's dead.

Oh, my josies dead for lootin.
His soul's passed far away beyond american flag cult sway,
and no more republicans can shoot him.

...

i'm just a metre change away from sung verse,
I've been using a shakespearean sonnet base, varying
widely and experimenting, but i do find that the sonnet
is the most sweet composition to my ear...

But they are really not singable...
But i find singable verse is usually
rather boring in literary complexity.
Stuck between the two poles of my own
programmers arrogance in compressing english-code to
its minimalist expression, and the joy
of hearing rythm in words who's meanings
are otherwise heavy and cumbersome.





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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
39. Front page kick n/t
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
40. Tsarist Russia
When the incompetence and failure of the tyranny at the top, despite having a tiny middle class, a serf system and zero open political discourse, is added with incapacity to wage war they cannot succeed. The middle class has been one of the main sources, by their competence and ambition, for the new aristocracy, even in the communes of Italy where the tradesmen elite built familial dynasties and titles. In ancient Rome the elites had to be competent for things to hold together from the top.

Loons with nukes will not do. Ponzi schemes won't sustain capitalism itself. There are better people everywhere but the at the ruling top. The sole problem is the allegiance the competent people have to the loons through nationalism, institutional myths, and dependence on others to oppose what one thinks one cannot do simply because one's vulnerable career is not at the decisive level.

I firmly believe your trajectories are true. Simply scanning the RW agenda, minus the profiteering ruin created by the Bush cabal, one is left with the same results: ruined education, enslaved labor, privatized tech war bullying, total propaganda forums, a fixed hereditary and worshiped elite already in moral and rational decay.

I also believe they cannot succeed. Without the passive hope that things will right themselves, the minimal must be their agonizing failure. That means they go but perhaps all or most of the world with them. The escalation in our day and age of unresolved class conflicts means we cannot save ourselves from global crises and in fact worsen or create them. Melding Ponzi pyramid schemes to faltering capitalism, increasing the population size to unsustainable limits is what sustains the reign of crony capitalism. nations wisely shrinking their populations would be in the same dilemma as alternative energy companies, shouldered out of the competition, ruined in trade.

Not being able to enlist the masses to invest lives in massive wars they must privatize to a balance where people ignore the war, accept the dire results anyway as patriotic. The chilling fact here is that only massive failure has made that pernicious goal now impossible, despite the onslaught of information exchange on the Internet to expose reality to the elitist news machine. Unfortunately, the power stalemate favors those already on top, guaranteeing we shall all suffer exponentially while it still is in place, no matter what controlled support or active revolt moves the masses.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. See "Kinder, Gentler, Apocalyptic Nationalism" in my DU journal n/t
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
41. I think you're missing one very big factor...The USSR
There's an old quip to the effect of "Communism was the best thing to happen to the average working man, as long as he didn't live under it."

The Bolsheviks won the Russian Civil War, and just tore down the old, aristocratic power structure: They killed the Romanovs, killed or drove into exile the rest of the nobility, shut down the Orthodox Church, everything. Leaving aside, for the moment, what they replaced all that with, it did have the effect of scaring the living shit out of western elites.

Faced with an obvious example of complete overthrow, it convinced enough of "the elite" to consider a third path, compromise with the "AI". (A fourth path, Italian/German-style fascism, made inroads before WW2, but never could consolidate.)

Once the USSR collapsed, any fear of a "socialist" revolution disappeared, and the elites have been in a feeding frenzy ever since.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Indeed I suffer from the same heretical thought.
The collapse of the hideous leninist nightmare was the doom of progressive democratic socialism. It was the end for us and it has been straight downhill ever since.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. There's a great quote from David Korten...
"In the 1980s, capitalism triumphed over communism,
in the 1990s, capitalism triumphed over democracy."

But, I'll bet it wasn't planned to happen so fast.
I mean, who would have thought you could get the
2 billion plus people behind the Iron Curtain to be
the "resevre army of labor" for the entire Western
world in under ten years?

arendt
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
44. "...exotic weapons, that can be managed by a small elite..."
Like the US Air Force? I have been increasingly worried about the creeping fundie take over of the Air Force, particularly the Academy. A mere handful of people capable of vast destruction, able to destroy cities. Or rebellious Army formations.

The elite's ace in the hole.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Yeah - mentioned the AF Acad in reply #11 n/t
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. Worse
Space weapons, nukes, roobotic warfare, drones. The fewer troops making contact the better and none of those troops drafted from the masses but recruited almost as mercenaries from the fringes, from other nations, from the ranks of the poor ignorant desperate who are resentful of their fellow citizens. As pie in the sky the Star Wars tech plans might be it is a consistent and pervasive win/win too tempting to supplant with the orthodoxy of best results from a citizen army boots on the ground. The money research alone is a source of limitless profit, and disengaging civil government from the people while increasing its use as a tool of power is a requisite of Bush-Cheney style dreams.

Meanwhile the purging and brain numbing reformation of the military elites and the big weapon officer corp is as essential as the otherwise counter intuitive privatization of basic military services. p\Privatization meaning that for no guarantee of performance all your tax dollars are guaranteed to flow into the select coffers of country club patriots and sunshine profiteers.

The fear and cultic exultation among some of the officer corps is at mental disease levels already. Channeling that into a Knights Templar or Teutonic Knights style crusade cult would drive them to the point of madness because it is not coherent with the modern world of warfare and painfully learned military training. The only thing is the motivation becomes spiritual zeal masking the need for an exorbitant self-profit motive. Everything else disappears. Eventually you lose wars and everything.
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newportdadde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
51. Very interesting read.
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