Arizona Governor Sends Troops to Mexican Border

[file83]

From this story: AZ Troops to Mexican Border

Gov. Janet Napolitano on Wednesday ordered more National Guardsmen posted at the Mexican border to help stop illegal immigrants and curb related crimes.

"They are not there to militarize the border," the governor said. "We are not at war with Mexico."

In light of recent reports coming from Texas...

Do you support this latest move by AZ Governor Napolitano (Democrat)?

[Selatius]

1. I don't really mind, but this could cause unforseen problems.

I doubt those National Guardsmen are there to shoot innocent folks trying to get into the country. It seems more likely they'll be arrested on the US side and immediately deported out of the country again. However, the biggest problem is those "coyotes" who make money off of smuggling people into the US. They are usually armed and extremely dangerous. They're driven by greed more than anything, and those Guardsmen have to take care not to get killed.

This is an ad hoc solution. Ultimately, the best solution is to use an army of border patrol agents supplemented by a powerful network of motion detectors, UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles), and anything else needed to defend not just the border but also the ports and airports.

[Kali]

25. I have had a lot of opportunity to think about this

(because I live smack in the middle of it) and one of the things I would like to say is that it it is pretty easy to pick out the coyotes and call tehm evil, but like everything in life, it is more complicated than that. You are a young man living in a border town. There are hundreds of thousands of migrants coming to your neigborhood every year looking for someone to guide them across and on to the JOBS they have waiting for them here in the US. You may already have a family yourself to feed, somebody offers you 500, a thousand bucks to walk a few hours, maybe drive a van across some rangeland..what are you gonna do?

Sure the bad guys are involved and the more the "war" escalates the more dangerous the activity and the people involved in it become - it is almost a natural law - look what happened with marijuana.

Used to be some hippy hauling a load in the trunk - gets pulled over "oh man, that cost me a hundred dollars" Now its a gangster and he may well shoot the cop because that load is now worth half a million or more.

Follow the money in any activity - those are the folks who want everything to be a crime. (the criminals AND the guys who are making livings chasing them) Make it legal and all of 'em have to find real jobs.

Anyway all of us who shop at wally world, like to eat out or stay in a hotel once in a while, buy new homes, or just about ANY consumer type action - we all contribute to the "illegal alien" problem. It's not the coyote's fault - he is a small cog in the wheel - American consumers are the driver of the machine.

[Selatius]

32. That's why I have a problem with the way we live. (Capitalism)

You actually have people who argue that if we tried to address the problem of illegal immigration, all it will do is lead to higher prices at the checkout counter. Unfortunately, this causes two problems. On one hand, most people seem to be in favor of actual enforcement of immigration laws, but on the other hand, they would most likely not be happy if they started noticing cost for certain fruits and vegetables rising to a level that would more accurately reflect prices if there was not a problem with the illegal exploitation of immigrant labor. A third problem is the illegal immigrants themselves, mainly the economic factors that drove them into the US.

When I take a step back and look to find a commonality, a thread that ties all of them together, I can't come up with any answer besides "capitalism" that is as convincing.

You have firms in the US that actively encourage and lobby politicians to be lax on immigration law so that they can go out and illegally set up schemes to hire illegal aliens because it is a way to increase profits without raising prices by attacking labor costs. You have people who go for bargain basement deals who still go for them even if they are made aware of the true price of "low prices, everyday." Then you have people, as a result of this exploitative way of life, uprooted and forced to find whatever job they can take, and these people are the ones who often become illegal immigrants to the US.

The cycle of exploitation continues, and a small few benefit off the human misery inflicted upon all. I would argue capitalism has lead to the deaths of more people in the third world through impoverishment brought about by exploitation and simple theft of their natural resources than communism has through totalitarian tyranny. Not since the Age of Imperialism where entire continents were raped and pillaged of their resources for the gain of a small number of wealthy aristocrats and the bourgeoisie in Europe and the US has there been so much suffering.

It is because of this realization that I eventually started studying socialism, and I believe what society needs now, more than ever, is an attempt to reintroduce elements of socialism into everyday life, to encourage mutual cooperation and sharing of resources, not bitter competition over limited resources and the exploitation of others as if others are somehow less than human and thus worthy of being used as tools.

[ThomWV]

2. First Time I've Been 100% Right

I look at it like this. Any Governor who's state borders Mexico who feels that his state is threatened should use such forces as are available to take appropriate action. I also think that if any Governor feels he or she has to do so it is clear evidence that at the national level the President, in his role as Commander in Chief, has failed and should be removed from office in favor of someone who will perform as required by the Oath of Office.

[NMDemDist2]

3. Janet is a solid Dem and a good Governor

and it's out of control around here.

I support Janet and think if she thinks they need the help down there, then she's probably correct. She is not one to make such a decision lightly.

[file83]

6. Napolitano is solid - I admired her greatly when

those gas lines broke and there was a shortage a few years back. She really shook things up and looked into it very seriously. She smelled something bad and really fought for the consumers in Arizona. I no longer live in AZ (moved a few months ago) but I agree - the border situation is getting out of hand and this is a very level headed responsible approach for her to make - it'll takes power out of the hands of those minute men (which they may be partly responsible for influencing this decision!) and puts into the States hands.

[immoderate]

27. Former zonie here. I supported Janet.

This move raises her creds for higher office. Think of it. Popular democratic governor send military to guard border. I think most people can get behind that.

As we all know the Republican administration is not serious about illegal immigration. The only move they could make to really make a difference is imposing heavy fines on those who employ illegal immigrants.

--IMM

[NaturalHigh]

4. Finally, somebody is at least TRYING to stop illegal immigration.

If nothing else, maybe this will publicize the problem.

[Ignacio Upton]

5. I support maintaining our borders

I'm glad that Napolitano is doing this instead of the Minute Men who by themselves will only incite conflict.

[file83]

7. I agree that this is a better situation - but I have a feeling that

the good thing those minute men did was probably influence Napolitano's decision to do this. What do you think? I kind of think that was the goal of the minute men: to raise awareness of this issue. And I know Napolitano wasn't very happy with Bush/DHS's handleing of this issue from the Federal standpoint. Nothing but good can now come from Napolitano's decision.

I hope the Minute Man stand down in Arizona now.

[Ignacio Upton]

12. I don't like the fact that we had to resort to having vigilantes

However, I don't see the Minute Men exactly being the scum of the earth. Personally I would describe myself as "hawkish" on illegal immigration, which I guess put me to the "right" of many base Democrats and Progressives. However, my tough stand on illegal immigration is for PROGRESSIVE reasons (ie. wages being driven down for working-class Americans who are already getting squeezed and the overall degredation of once decent jobs in industries such as construction because of this), not out of xenophobia. I also believe that Bush and his corporate cabal don't give a shit. They just need cheap labor.

[jsamuel]

8. um... by definition isn't sending troops to the border "militarizing" it?

you don't need a war to militarize...

[file83]

13. Good point - but it's also semantics....

...one could also argue that she is "securing" the border. It's not a military build up the kind of which you see before an invasion. That would definitely be considered a "militarization" of the border. But your point is also perfectly valid.

[Viking12]

9. I don't support the move. It's misplaced.

It treats the symptom, not the cause. The #1 driver of illegal immigration is jobs. The only way to reduce the supply is to reduce the demand. To do that we'd need to go after those that are hiring undocumented workers. However, nobody wants to do that becuase it's "good" for business and the consumer.

[file83]

14. The other factor however is drug trafficking. With trafficking comes gang

violence like what is going on in Texas. I think Napolitano doesn't want to start seeing that happen at the scale it is in Texas - that would be very bad for both Arizonans and the immigrants crossing the border.

[Viking12]

18. Again, the effort is misplaced.

We could curb drug-trafficking related crime by legalizing and regulating drugs.

[file83]

21. But you have to be politically realistic - until drugs are legalized....

...drug trafficking is a very real issue.

[Viking12]

22. I am being realistic. Until the roots of the problems are addressed

the will continue to be real issues. Slapping band-aids on severed limbs does no one any good.

Increased enforcement on human trafficking and drug trafficking only increases the profits of the successful traffickers. Larger profits provide greater incentive for them to take extreme and violent measures to protect their trade.

[file83]

28. Yes, but you can't "legalize" human trafficking....

...so are we to just "give up" on preventing women and children from being forced into slavery/sexual slavery? Of course not.

I agree that drugs need to be legalized that is the only long term way we can stop these people - but until they are - drug lords/gangs will continue their reign of violence and terror on border towns - it's got to be stopped.

I realize our USG is involved in the drug trafficking business as well - which just further exacerbates the problem. That's why drugs need to be legalized. The amounts of money involved just stoke the flames of corruption (which is why Mexico is so corrupt - and why their economy sucks.)

We agree on that issue - I just think that until we fix it - we must protect our borders.

[Viking12]

30. By human trafficking I was referring to the smuggling of undocumenteds

into the US from Mexico. Forcing women and children into slavery/sexual slavery is a seperate problem.

I just think that until we fix it - we must protect our borders.

I disagree, I just think that until we fix it - we won't be able to protect our borders.

[High Plains]

24. And we could legalize and regulate immigration.

[Kali]

26. Also if the US is going to go around telling the rest of the world

what to do, we should be trying harder to influence Mexico to take care of its own. Mexico is a beautiful place, rich in resources with a willing work force. There is no reason for Mexico not to be pretty self sufficient.

[XemaSab]

10. It's such a dangerous border crossing

if it keeps people from dying out there, it's a good thing.

[file83]

15. I still can't believe how desparate people must be in order to try and

cross that desert during the summer. It is very sad - and I think that we need to either completely open up the border or completely shut it down in order to stop people from putting their lives at risk.

[Taverner]

11. Totally against it

The irony of illegal immigration is that if we sent every undocumented worker home tomorrow, the economy would flat out collapse.

[file83]

19. Yes, but the same could be said for sending every documented worker

home tomorrow - the economy would also shut down. It's a false hypothetical that doesn't really make a valid point.

Even if we shut down the border totally tomorrow - there would still be a growing population of cheap labor in this country. Not to mention - it would take decades for the "undocumented" population to either assimilate or go home - so there would be plenty of time for our economy to reorganize itself and adjust.

Think about it this way too - if the US has so much "cheap labor" then why are we still sending manufacturing jobs over seas? It seems that our economy is weakening regardless of the current "cheap labor" immigrant situation.

I think the argument that is strongest against locking down the border is from the humanitarian stand point: The people that made it here rarely see their relatives in Mexico/Central America - and if we shut the border down (coming back in) we economically force them to stay separated from their families. I think that is very cruel - but on the other hand - it is the decision that the immigrant made when they decided to come to the U.S. But it still is still cruel.

Even though the border isn't "locked down" - in some ways it already is:

I knew a guy in Phoenix, good young man, "illegal" immigrant from Mexico that worked in a warehouse (managed it actually!). He hadn't gone back to see his family in Veracruz, Mexico for 6 years for fear he'd never make it back in time to keep his job (plus his boss is took advantage of him too - he works tons of overtime with no overtime pay, just regular pay. He got his first paid vacation in 6 years last summer.) I felt bad for him. He makes pretty decent money and is able to send back a LOT (relatively) of money to them. That's why he stays.

But we shouldn't blame this all on the United States - the economic reasons immigrants come here is can also be blamed on the corruption and contraceptive practices (lack there of) in Mexico. They have a horrible economy, but the dominant religion doesn't allow contraception - so their population is exploding. That is their responsibility - not the U.S.'s.

I'll shut up now.

[Kali]

29. Contraceptives are easily available in Mexico

there is a heavy influence by a certain church, however....

[Renew Deal]

16. That's what the National Guard should be doing.

Though it's got to be hot in the summer.

[izzybeans]

17. We aren't at war with Mexico, just Mexicans.

We aren't militarizing the borders, just sending the military to the border.

[file83]

20. And Ecuadorians, Guatemalans, Hondurans, Nicaraguans....n/t

[izzybeans]

23. I don't think these folks are differentiated from.

They are all Mexicans in the eyes of the immigration warrior.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. Save us from tomato pickers and bedpan emptiers. How brave.

Racism? Nah...just tradition American values of bullying the poor and blaming the victims.