My rant on HuffPo thread re Katrina. Locals to blame? BULL!

[Brotherjohn]

So this poster (Louis XIX) kept claiming (in a thread actually about an Anderson Cooper-Jon Stewart exchange) that local govt in NOLA deserved the lion's share of the blame, that troops could not come until asked, and that locals were stupid to ever build there, etc. etc.

Well, I'm sick of hearing that S*&#. I couldn't help but let him have it. Here's what I shot back:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/03/01/jon-stewart-is-anderso_n_16584.html?p=3

LouisXIX:
First of all, read this (http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline). I don't have time to respond to you on a point by point basis, as you still have a lot of catching up to do. Okay, I'm sure you'll say Think Progress is a "liberal" thinktank (note that most of the links are to government documents and mainstream media reports). But at least it's something to counter the apparent heaping spoonfuls of "locals are to blame" breakfast cereal you've been so eagerly ingesting.

There ARE reasons, and ways, in which federal troops may be called in immediately if the need arises. Let's look at one, shall we?

When DHS declares an incident one "of national significance", that gives the federal authorities the legal right to call in whatever resources are needed, including the marines. The previous year's "Hurricane Pam" exercise, as well as the just-released tapes, prove that FEMA and DHS were WELL aware that this storm could likely overwhelm state and local authorities' ability to respond.

Michael Chertoff waited until September 1, TWO FULL DAYS after the levees were already breeched and people were drowning en masse, to classify Katrina as an "incident of national significance". I myself knew people were drowning en masse the night of the storm, just from watching the news. Meanwhile, LOCAL rescue crews (police, fire, and DWF) and a few Coast Guard and NG troops were busting their asses with limited resources to rescue the few people they could (sans communication, sans electricity... some sans homes, as they were destroyed). The delay in this pronouncement alone, and the cavalry it would have brought in two days earlier, cost hundreds of lives.

Ironic that you should mention the marines going in as "the sort of thing that happens in thrid world countries, like Pakistan". OUR troops showed up in Pakistan 2 DAYS after the quake, to deliver food and water. They cut their N.O. response time in HALF, and for a country halfway around the world (oh, I forgot, we have more National Guard over there).

FEMA, DHS, and Bush were, quite simply, asleep at the wheel.

Or more properly, vacationing at the wheel.

Then, when he finally accepted that there was a need for additional military support (or realized that, politically, he had to act), Bush tried to strongarm Blanco into ceding control of the NG to him. Now, this is something you would seem to be against from your posts above. Blanco rightfully declined. As both the head of Louisiana's NG and the commander of active-duty forces in North America have both stated, Federal control over NG troops in N.O. would not have made one whit of difference in their ability to respond.

The slow federal response (troops and otherwise) wasn't due "chain of command" and constitutional issues. It was due to incompetence at the federal level (followed by partisan ass-covering).

You posted the following:
"New Orleans in underwater. You can't tame it, just as you can't tame the Mississipi, or Lake Michigan, or the Colorado River, no matter how many canals and berms you build. Even the best built levees can't control mother nature. Mama will always, always win, always."

Well, then, I guess we should all just go back to living in caves.

You live in a highrise, I assume, in NYC (or for arguments sake, let's assume you do). If that building one day just topples and falls, and many of your neighbors are killed and injured... well, that would be horrible. But you can't stop gravity! Mama always wins! (And NO, I'm not invoking 9-11)

Of course that's ridiculous. Everything we do comes with risks, but we as humans use our brains to build and create things that make our lives easier. In N.O., it's draining the swamps and building the levees so we can keep one of the largest ports in the world operating (to all of our benefit). In NY, we build what seems like millions of tall buildings so we can keep... well, whatever it is you keep going in NYC. Water can destroy low-lying cities, and gravity can wreak havoc on buildings. The nature of flooding simply means the worst would happen to large numbers of people at once, though less frequently (I'd venture to say the number of people that die in building collapses every year - highrise and otherwise - is similar to the death toll from Katrina).

My point is that we also have this thing called government. I know you hate to admit it, but we do. And that government (like buildings and levees) is one of the things that we have created with our human brains that has made it easier for us to live in a world full of violent natural forces. It has particularly allowed us to live in large numbers together in a way that we don't all kill each other. Part of what government does is regulate things like buildings and levees, so that we are all safe living our everyday lives. You rely on these regulations every day to ensure that your building doesn't fall down. The people of N.O. relied on those regulations every day to ensure that their levees didn't burst. In many cases, the Corps' guarantee was even required to allow building in areas (Insurance companies aren't fools).

Now, however, we know that levees (actually, mostly flood walls) designed by the Corps to withstand storm surges reaching their height failed well before that. We know that the Army Corp of Engineers took lunch breaks instead of properly inspecting the levees. And as stated above, we know that the federal government failed miserably in their response to a catastrophe that clearly overwhelmed state and local authoritities.

You see, this thing called government DOES have a purpose. That purpose, first and foremost, is to protect us. We DO pay taxes for a reason, and we DO enter into an agreement with our government to do certain things for us... such as go to war with someone who has attacked us, or provide massive relief efforts when a disaster CLEARLY is beyond the abilities of the most self-sufficient neighborhood, or city, or state, to respond to.

And in this most solemn of responsibilities, we expect them to perform with at least a minimum of competence.

The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT failed miserably in this respect with regards to Katrina. Forget lawsuits. They should all be kicked out on their asses (or impeached) for clear and flagrant incompetence.

[jrw14125]

1. you and your librul objective facts; I "feel" Bush did no wrong, therefore

[file83]

2. Since when has Bush respected the "law" when it comes to protecting

Americans?

Some have argued that Bush couldn't help New Orleans because according to the "law" - he couldn't help until New Orleans' local leaders made a declaration for "help".

Even if that were true, since when has Bush paid attention to "law" when it comes to saving American lives?

NSA wiretapping (to protect Americans)
CIA "extraordinary rendition" (to protect Americans)
vilolation of Geneva conventions (to protect Americans)

But when it comes to the Katrina disaster, Bush is suddenly some sort of law abiding citizen? What a joke.

(kick ass article! :thumbsup:)

[Jayhawk Lib]

3. I hate to burst your bubble...

Bush and company have a lot of blame but Blanco and Nagins really failed miserably. They are the ones that should have gotten their people evacuated.

In a situation like that the individual should have the good sense to evacuate. Next local authorities have the responsibility look after those that are unable. There is no way you can expect the federal government to gather resources from far away in a very few days to take care of No and the other 500 miles of coast that was affected.

Two cities come to mind right now. Gulfport and Biloxi. They have nearly as many people as NO but they dealt with it in a timely manner. There are numerous other cities along that coastline also. We never hear about them because local authorities dealt with it in a timely fashion.

Sure Bush and FEMA screwed up but Nagins and Blanco deserve most of the blame.

[pitohui]

4. you need to check your facts

until blanco we had no really good contra-flow plan, under do-nothing mike foster it was pretty much every man for himself, but blanco got the ball rolling to work w. the mississippi state gov't and the different parishes to make sure that contra-flow worked

biloxi/gulfport is not in fact anywhere near as large in population as the greater new orleans area yet they did lose around 300 people to the storm surge, so it looks to the reasonable eye that mississippi lost people just about in the same proportion (or a greater proportion) to louisiana as you would expect, the tiny town of waveland alone lost 50 people -- that would be 10s of thousands lost in orleans if we'd lost people in the same proportions, indeed, because of our improved evacuation plans, houston lost 100 people evacuating for rita where the storm didn't even hit while cameron which was totally destroyed by rita lost not a single soul -- that's an evacuation plan, my friend

back to katrina -- the models showed that 60 percent of the population of the greater new orleans area would be able to evacuate by car, in the event, it was 80 percent -- 80 percent! -- 4 little words of nagin's when he issued the first ever mandatory evacuation of orleans parish probably saved hundreds of not thousands of lives : god help us all -- it wasn't a pretty speech, it wasn't a statesmanlike speech, but people suddenly realized that if they had a way to get out, maybe they'd better take it because nagin pulled no punches in describing the horror that was abt to ensue

and because of the improvements to the contr-flow, you could actually get out! traffic flowed and if you had a car, you were able to get to safety, if the same storm hit in florida today i guarantee that hundreds of people would die in their car on bridges, look at the size of their great storm (andrew) and compare it to the huge huge unprecedentedly large size of katrina, there just ain't no comparison


i'm tired of people who don't know diddly abt the area crapping on nagin and blanco, you don't have to like them, but they saved thousands of lives through their efforts, you have no clue what evacuation used to be like, because of our limited highways, which have to pass over many bridges

as recently as july of 2005 with hurricane dennis, upper jefferson parish evacuated out of order, if dennis had been katrina, people in lower jefferson parish could have been trapped and killed by the thousand, but blanco got w. the broussard and the jefferson parish authorities and by god she fixed it and made it clear that parishes would evacuate in an order allowing people on low-lying ground the first chance to get out

i don't know where you live or what experience you have w. hurricane evacuation but i'm here on the ground and i can tell you that crapping on nagin and blanco for bush's crimes is just plain criminal in my view

i have damn little use for nagin on a day-to-day basis but the fact remains the man gave the first ever mandatory evacuation order for orleans, in previous years, you know what public officials, white AND black, used to do? they just gave up and "suggested," there wasn't even an attempt made to save the people of the city

hurricane georges could have been katrina except it turned at the last minute, if it had continued on course, 100,000 people would have died

since there was only one perfect person in this world, no, nagin and blanco will never be jesus christ almighty, but you couldn't have done a better job of getting people out in the real world

when everyone is to blame, no one is to blame, i think DU has a duty to be reality-based and to put the blame where it belongs, on the federal gov't, not on local and state gov'ts which did amazing things w. pittances for budget

[Brotherjohn]

7. Okay, let's talk about evacuation.

I've posted so many times on this before, I'm blue in the fingers. I didn't even mention evacuation in my original post because I figured most people "got it" by now. But since that's where so many like you STILL so wrongly lay the blame on local authorities....

You didn't burst my bubble. See, I know what I'm talking about.

First: It is impossible to know more than three or more days out if a hurricane evacuation will even be necessary.

Second: It is impossible to evacuate an entire city of a million people in two days. Plain and simple. Impossible.

Third: FEMA's own Hurricane Pam exercise less than a year before estimated that, optimistically, New Orleans would be able to evacuate about a third of it's residences. "This was a recognition of the city's poor population, with upwards of 100,000 living in households in which no one owns a car." (http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/ops/hurricane-pam.htm)

Per Wikipedia: "Reports from the Associated Press state that 80% of the near 500,000 had evacuated safely from New Orleans prior to the hurricane's landfall. Even if licensed drivers had been available and the available buses had been used to evacuate the remaining approximately 150,000 people, they may not have made it to safety before landfall." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina#Prevention_and_evacuation_issues)

YOU try evacuating 100,000-150,000 people in a day or two.

N.O. evacuated 80% of it's residents for Katrina. By any measure, that was an extraordinary success.

Perhaps because you do not live in a hurricane zone, you do not understand what an evacuation entails, and when it is merited. We always walk a fine line, and the vast majority of the time, a major evacuation turns out to not have been necessary. We get out as best we can, often at the last minute.

Evacuating, or running to a shelter, when a tornado is in the area is an entirely different thing. It can be done instantly, and only results in a momentary interruption in the day (should it prove unneccessary). Evacuating an entire large city for a hurricane is something to only be done as an absolute last resort, and as I stated above, is not completely possible anyway.

Less than 3 days before Katrina hit (Friday), it was a minimal Cat 1 having just crossed into the Gulf. This is a common path and strength projection for an Atlantic hurricane. Three days out, it was projected to hit The Tallahassee, FL area (again, as a minor storm).

I suppose we should have evacuated the entire northern Gulf Coast then, huh?

By Saturday AM, Katrina was upgraded to a Cat 3, and projected to hit MS/LA as a Cat 4-5. THAT'S when I called my parents and brother in N.O. THAT'S when they decided to get out. THAT'S when most people decided to get out (if they hadn't already done so).

But they had cars. IF (a big if) Nagin had had the drivers and buses to evacuate 100,000 people Saturday, he may have tried to do so. But again, that's just not possible. And to try it Friday or before would have been utterly foolish. If that were what we expect, we'd be doing massive evacuations half a dozen times a year, and for no reason. Correction: every city on the coast in the Southeast would be doing same.

Let's just trash the entire economy of the South "just to be safe". :sarcasm:

Minor storms come into the Gulf half a dozen times a year, at least. Any one of them could become a Katrina and any one of them could hit a major city. But they usually don't.

We who live in hurricane zones understand that it is impossible to predict when a "big one" will hit more than a day or two out (not to mention exactly where). We also know that not everyone is going to get out before a major storm hits. Everyone also understands that if they want to, they need to make plans to get out sooner rather than later, because if you wait until the day or two before a storm hits, you'll be lucky if you don't ride out 130mph winds in a car on the Interstate.

When Hurricane George side-swiped LA a few years back, 60% evacuated. It was (rightfully) considered a successful evacuation. In all of my years' DIRECT experience with hurricanes (Betsy, Camille, Andrew, Opal, Erin, Ivan, Dennis), I have NEVER witnessed such a successful, and complete (as can be expected) evacuation of such a major city. I have also, however, never witnesseed such catastrophic flooding from a hurricane (in New Orleans included, and I was boated out by the Red Cross in 1965 after Betsy).

Katrina was just too much.

Completely evacuating a large city before a major hurricane hits is impossible, and Nagin and Blano's timing was as good as it could possibly have been before Katrina (unless you have a crystal ball).

I was born and raised in N.O. My parents evacuated, and my mother died as an evacuee in Shreveport, never to see her home again. I spent a day clearing my father's lot, and straining my own injury obtained cleaning up my own lot after hurricane Ivan in Pensacola, so that he could move in alone two months post-Katrina. My brother completely lost his home, 100 yards from the 17th St. Canal breech. I lost over 1000 fellow New Orleanians and the better part of my hometown in Katrina.

And I will go to my grave defending Nagin and Blanco's response to this horrible storm.

[underpants]

10. Exactly at 80% the city of NO did MORE than anyone could expect

That (pardon the phrase) blows the whole argument of NO being to blame out of the water

[pitohui]

14. best post ever on the subject

i was so distraught w. georges because i was ordered to evacuate and yet my friends who lived 15 feet lower in orleans were not told to evacuate -- and they didn't, i had room for another couple but was unable to convince anyone from orleans to come along for the ride

the loss of life if georges had not turned is too horrible to contemplate

and that wasn't ancient times, hell, it was 1998

i am so sorry abt your mom, that has got to be so hard

[Brotherjohn]

15. Thanks for your thoughts on my Mom. She was already dying, but...

... took a turn for the worse just after evacuating.

It still all seems surreal.

[Brotherjohn]

8. And another thing, re Mississippi...

They dealt with it in no more timely, and probably less timely, a manner than N.O.

I spent a good bit of my youth in a little town called Clermont Harbor that was wiped from the map on Aug. 29th. It is relatively easy (compared to N.O) to evacuate from the worst of the storm on the MS Gulf Coast, and thankfully, most did. You're talking about a 70mi wide stretch of coast inhabited by a few thousand people. It's a mile or two inland to high ground. Many, I'm sure, escaped as the storm was getting very close and they realized how bad it was going to be.

Still, around 300 people died, in an area inhabited by about 150,000 (for the record, Biloxi's pop. was about 50K and Gulfport was about 80K).

Sadly, the MS Gulf Coast fared no better than N.O.

[pitohui]

5. one of the better rants i've read lately

bravo, brother

[Brotherjohn]

9. Thank you for your, too. You made several points I wanted to.

Like how Houston showed that evacuating a major city (for Rita) has its costs (in dollars, but in LIVES, too). Especialy when that evacuation turns out to be unnecessary.

Also, your point about blame is spot on. "When everyone is to blame, no one is to blame." Brilliant! That's the whole problem with the "balanced media" these days. They refuse to acknowledge what is painfully and obviously true. Everything is "he said / she said".

I don't want to toot our own horn, but anyone who continues to claim Nagin and Blanco deserve even one OUNCE of blame for failing to evacuate in a timely manner needs to read our two posts above.

[EstimatedProphet]

6. How patently stupid is it to blame New Orleans for existing?

It was bound to happen, because it was there? That is bonefuck stupid! New Orleans was founded in the 1700's! In all that time it was never destroyed before! DC can't even say that!

[meganmonkey]

11. VERY well done!!!

I am bookmarking this thread for future reference.

:thumbsup:

[Brotherjohn]

12. It's fun (and infuriating) over at HuffPo! Some freeper is trolling here..

... and "outed" me over there (like I care), they didn't even get my HuffPo name right (it's the same as here).

Jump over there to catch the latest. My reply to Cseeman hasn't posted yet. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/03/01/jon-stewart-is-anderso_n_16584.html?p=3


...
Oh, I forgot: HI CSEEMAN! What's YOUR (troll) name here?

[Ksec]

13. Blame the victims

The victims who relied of Federally built levees and paid their Federal taxes that finance FEMA.

The locals should have known that they were dealing with incompetent conservatism . Its also apparent that those people had no cars because of Compassionate conservatism which shipped all the jobs to China.