POLL: What is the most critical/important issue to you, Global Warming or the Iraq War

[Harper_is_Bush]

[Double T]

1. The effects of the Iraq war will eventually end...........

the effects of global warming will continue to increase until our demise

[JackRiddler]

52. The most important effect of the Iraq war...

may well be to cement the circumstances that give rise to global warming in the first place.

Among other things, this is a war for control of oil reserves - to maintain the oil-based economy, until the very last drop is burned. In other words, to guarantee that global warming continues.

Furthermore, if the war extends to Iran, you may be certain that measures against global warming will become irrelevant for another decade at least.

Global warming is in fact a meaningless issue to view independently of the system and way of life that causes it. The first change if you want to counteract the destruction of the environment by all means and bring justice to the world in any way is to end this war, to end the very practice of war.

What an absurd posing of a false dichotomy this poll entails! I see little more than escapist wishful thinking in the majority response for "global warming."

They seem to be saying: "Please, get me away from this divisive, bloody, ugly, dirty matter of fighting about a war against all the patriots and yahoos. Get me away from the possibility that those who oppose the war may themselves become victims of the criminal government that started it. Above all, get me away from the reality that all of us are implicated in mass murder, in an unprovoked war of aggression against a people who did nothing to us, whom 'we' are killing every day."

Please, give me a nice clean policy wonk issue I can pretend is unrelated to war!

[Double T]

69. With bushco at the controls, NOTHING is clean; EVERYTHING........

is divisive, bloody, ugly, dirty, corrupt, imperialistic, dictatorial, murderous, traitorous and hypocritical. 'WE' as Americans, whether 'WE' voted for the administration of massive corruption or NOT, are victims while also being responsible for the disaster that has been created. The same is true for global warming; 'WE' have created this climate disaster with our out of control, irresponsible lifestyle while ONLY very few are willing to make drastic changes to slow or curb the worsening ongoing problem, which eventually will lead to our demise.

[JackRiddler]

You have something there...

How can any issue top the reality of an imperial presidency, accepting no limits to the executive, asserting its divine war-given right to violate any law or court ruling or constitutionally guaranteed right, getting measures like the PATRIOT Act and the Military Tribunals Act and all the rest, telling any lie (preferring lies), declaring a perpetual and global war on a fictional Axis of Evil and "anyone who isn't with us" ... how can anyone pretend that anything else can get accomplished in such a situation than to see this beast toppled? The weak point right now is Iraq - though the anchor of the beast is the 9/11 lie, and until you confront that, the cancer will always metastize. The gangsters have learned nothing except that crime pays handsomely, and so to crime they will always resort.

[JackRiddler]

72. You have something there...

How can any issue top the reality of an imperial presidency, accepting no limits to the executive, asserting its divine war-given right to violate any law or court ruling or constitutionally guaranteed right, getting measures like the PATRIOT Act and the Military Tribunals Act and all the rest, telling any lie (preferring lies), declaring a perpetual and global war on a fictional Axis of Evil and "anyone who isn't with us" ... how can anyone pretend that anything else can get accomplished in such a situation than to see this beast toppled? The weak point right now is Iraq - though the anchor of the beast is the 9/11 lie, and until you confront that, the cancer will always metastize. The gangsters have learned nothing except that crime pays handsomely, and so to crime they will always resort.

[shaniqua6392]

2. The Iraq War is killing people right now. n/t

[electron_blue]

5. GW is killing people right now, too, approximately 160,000 a year

according to this report:

http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,60640,00.html

[Harper_is_Bush]

6. Odd answer.

I don't want to influence the poll results too much, but I encourage you to investigate not only the number of deaths due to heat waves in recent history, but the projected effects of global warming. It's not exactly something that may/may not be happening....it's happening and expected effects can be expected.

[jwirr]

7. Many are starving already from Global Warming. However, I

often think about all the destruction in the war as a part of global warming. It is all about oil and continuing the use of fossil fuels so they cannot be disconnected.

[walldude]

3. Depends... if I were in Iraq getting my ass shot at

Global Warming wouldn't be high on my list of priorities.

[Harper_is_Bush]

4. If you're not in Iraq, then you can't comment in that regard...

and I'm interested in your opinion, not some fictional version of yourself.

[walldude]

11. Oh really? Well than my vote is for Iraq war first

and Global Warming second. And exactly what is it that disallows me to speak for someone who cannot speak for themselves? I guess since you are not in Iraq and you are (I am assuming) not a member of the government then you can't post this poll question. Same logic.

[Fovea]

Of the two

Global warming, because the Iraq occupation is already lost. We just haven't figured it out yet.

[Harper_is_Bush]

8. I'm personally glad to see Global Warming win out 2:1. For those who believe

Iraq is more important due to current and ongoing death, you should investigate global warming more. it has, and is, and will continue to kill many more than Iraq.

[crispini]

9. WOW.

I wasn't expecting this kind of results.

[Harper_is_Bush]

10. what did you expect? n/t

[crispini]

14. I was expecting more of a parity between the two I guess.

There is a lot of heat and discussion here on DU around all things Iraq War related, so I just figured that there would be more people very concerned about that.

Don't get me wrong, I am GLAD about the results --- I think global climate change concerns the future of our SPECIES... but I'm just surprised because I don't see it quite as much of a hot topic here on DU.

[Harper_is_Bush]

16. Agreed. Iraq takes on a higher profile than global warming. My feeling...

is that people are less comfortable talking about global warming because it scares them.

Iraq angers them, so it's easy to bring it up and get outraged about it.

As well, the denial lobby has had a profound effect in spreading doubt and making people careful not to take a solid position on the GW issue.

[nam78_two]

19. You know as someone working in scientific research

not climate science (bio-tech actually), but still as someone who interacts with people in different areas of the pure sciences, I perceive a much higher degree of alarm among people in the sciences, than people on average.

I think it still doesn't seem real or as having the kind of catastrophic potential it does, to most people outside of the sciences. I have been worried about this for the past 5 years :-/. There really isn't any great degree of "doubt" within the scientific community really about that :a) climate patterns are breaking and b) that human activity is responsible for it.

[Harper_is_Bush]

21. I believe what you're seeing is a natural human tendancy to deny/ignore that which is too terrible

to imagine.

Global warming has the potential to wipe us out.

Even the idea that coastal areas could be put permanently underwater is too much to accept for many.

This is why the "average" folk aren't demonstrating much alarm. They're treating it like one of those "butter causes cancer" announcements.

[sojourner]

27. also the human tendency to consider proximal vs distal events, temporally speaking.

[Harper_is_Bush]

44. Yes, and global warming has falsely been portrayed as a distant event by the liars

The EXXON funded lobby.

[nam78_two]

50. Those people have a LOT of blood on their hands

I truly LOATHE the oil lobby :grr:

[Stephanie]

12. Global Warming is the ONLY issue

Everything else pales.

[Harper_is_Bush]

28. Agreed.

Other issues are important, but when taken on balance Global Warming usurps them all.

[antiimperialist]

62. She disagrees

Many things matter a lot.

[Peace Patriot]

13. False opposition. The two things cannot be separated. Let me count the

ways that they are connected:

1. All the resources being used to fight an unjust, illegal war on Iraq--at least a trillion dollars and no end in sight--not to mention tremendous manpower diverted--many people gone forever, or maimed for life--and tremendous technical expertise, are desperately needed to convert this country and the world to alternative energy, A.S.A.P. Think--THINK!--what a trillion dollars, and all the personnel of the US military could have done, if it hadn't been fighting this wretched, genocidal war.

2. The war itself is burning up tremendous amounts of fossil fuel--in a mad rush to profit from the last oil, before it runs out, or before people smarten up and convert to non-polluting fuels. It is a corporate resource war--the absolutely, totally wrong thing to be doing.

3. The war not only drains off, or kills, or maims personnel, has pushed us into bankruptcy, and has diverted technical expertise, and is polluting air and sea, it has gravely harmed our ability to lead the world in global warming solutions. We are the biggest polluter. We should be--and must be--the leader in solving the problem. But our political and diplomatic leadership are in disrepute--not to mention disarray. Our diplomatic establishment, and policy-making abilities, have been raped, purged, gutted, filled with incompetnts and toadies. Bush has destroyed our reputation, and has wrecked our agencies. It will take decades to recover from the damage that his Junta has inflicted, and we don't have decades. And much of this damage--morally and materially--is due to this war.

4. The war has harmed our self-image and our can-do attitude. It has demoralized us--as we try to face the biggest crisis in the history of the human race. The World Wildlife Fund gives us 50 years--50 years to the DEATH of the planet--at present levels of pollution and consumption. What a time to inflict us with unnecessary war!

5. Step one to solving global warming is ENDING THE WAR ON IRAQ.

[oblivious]

15. That's why I say it's the Iraq war.

I remember reading last year that one US base in Iraq has more air traffic than O'hare. When you combine that sort of increased fossil fuel use with the depleted uranium pollution of vast areas, non-stop oil pipeline sabotage and God knows what else, it's unimaginable the extent of environmental destruction caused by that war.

edit: changed my weird heading which had me voting for the Iraq war.

[nam78_two]

17. Global warming overall-but the two issues are kinda tied together.nt

[Harper_is_Bush]

18. I hope Dem leadership is paying attention. Tackle Global Warming and you will win

and so will we.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

20. Unfortunately, that's wrong

Any true solution to GW is going to cause so much economic pain to Americans that it would be political suicide. So many people are only concerned with this week, this month, this year, and could care less about decades or centuries from now. We can make little dents in the progression of GW, but stopping or reversing it will be exceedingly difficult.

Dems (and others): tackle GW in a serious way and you will lose.

[Harper_is_Bush]

23. "Any true solution to GW is going to cause so much economic pain... be political suicide"

That is a bizarre comment.

You are accepting the idea - promoted by the deniers - that action on global warming means economic disater.

That is a narrow and ignorant belief.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

34. OK, says you.

I think the economic impact would have to be very significant: more than most voters would tolerate.
If it were easy (politically), we'd already be on top of it, don't you suppose? In fact, why do those who deny GW in the face of the facts even exist? It's because of the economic cost that they perceive.

Is anybody, anywhere saying that reversing GW is going to be easy?

[Harper_is_Bush]

41. The idea that action on global warming would cause economic hardship is a tune the deniers sing

have you been sucked in?

How econonically devastating is it for you to replace your lightbulbs with compact florescents?

Or to drive less?

Or to pay a carbon tax?

Don't spread the lies they have worked so hard to create.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

53. I'm told

that the amount of reduction in emissions required is 75% by 2050, even as our population is increasing by 1% or so per year. Changing lightbulbs and driving "less" doesn't even get it started. Even in your suggestions, the third item, carbon tax, is economic pain per se; it doesn't take long to run into that.

It's not a lie. Change doesn't often come easily. This is a huge change to the American way of life and it will take leadership like we've never seen to make it happen.

[nam78_two]

45. Has Bush's Iraq war been great for the economy?

This isn't a very good argument you know. If Bush could sell a fake threat to a large percentage of the American people successfully for almost 6 years, the Dems had better try to sell a very real threat to them.

Besides in the big picture we will spend more if we don't attempt to curb global warming now. I had posted the report on that here a while back.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

56. "Tackle Global Warming and you will win"

that's the part that I took issue with. Not the war.

[porphyrian]

22. Isn't that a false binary? Why can't we address both immediately? - n/t

[Harper_is_Bush]

24. why don't we address everthing at once, huh?

Life is about identifying priorities.

[porphyrian]

30. How are two things everything?

Can't you breathe and walk at the same time? What the fuck?

[Harper_is_Bush]

33. Two things aren't everything, but I sense that if more issues were added

your answer would be "why can't we address <enter number of issues here> thing at once?

To answer your original question: no, it's not a "false binary".

[porphyrian]

35. Oh, a psychic. Then you know what I'm going to say next. - n/t

[noamnety]

49. Thank you.

I'm not really interested in picking between gross human rights violations and global warming; this strikes me as a bit of a push poll.

I would guess the reason there is more discussion about the war than about global warming is because we all agree global warming is bad, but half the democrats support the war. So there is more debate on that point.

Now every time we talk about specifics of global warming, we have controversy. What? We have to give up red meat? Give up our gas guzzling cars? Stop shopping at big box stores? Use composting toilets? Give up our grass lawns that need to be watered and mowed? People want a stop to global warming, but not in a way that inconveniences them personally.

[porphyrian]

60. There's no reason we can't stop global warming without undue personal inconvenience.

We are intelligent and resourceful and can do it if we put our minds to it. What we all have to do is simply agree that we need to do it and accept that things will change. We don't have to agree on the means as long as we are all working towards the same end. In fact, it may be preferable to attempt multiple parallel methods rather than simply handing down commandments from above. The biggest resistance won't come from the individual but from the corporate entities who farm livestock without regard to the environmental impact of their practices, who produce gas guzzling vehicles and market them as the most desirable, who destroy local economies by offering goods cheaper than small businesses can compete with and exporting most of the profits rather than paying their employees a living wage, and who would rather pay to water golf courses in a desert from another state than research an affordable method of desalinization. Individuals only resist change until they accept it.

[sojourner]

25. Iraq war is bad....killing 100s of thousands. Global warming...10s of millions!!

[Stephanie]

26. Read It and WEEP

Like I am.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=77593&mesg_id=77593

[derby378]

29. Nothing is irreversible if we just exercise our collective will

I have to believe there is still time.

[Stephanie]

31. read the article

I burst into tears.

[Harper_is_Bush]

38. Guess that takes all the onus off of you to do anything?

How convenient.

Replaced your light bulbs yet?

[Stephanie]

43. Excuse me, what?

I'm on your side. Don't give me that shit.

[Harper_is_Bush]

46. sry. Guess the opposition in this thread has got me a little jumpy

your article and your introduction to it raised my hackles.

[Stephanie]

48. well I mean "weep" literally

because that's exactly what i did when i read it

[antiimperialist]

32. If China invaded us...

And our men, women and children were being slaughtered and killing each other, I'm sure the distribution of the vote would be very different.

Either way, I'm with those who find no reason to not address both issues at the same time. The thread is a bit pointless.

[Harper_is_Bush]

"The thread is a bit pointless"

then don't post in it.

Hey here's one:

"Uh...if a meteor was hurtlin' at us ah guess the vote would be different"

You were saying about "pointless"?

[antiimperialist]

61. That makes no sense

How can I express my opinion about a thread being pointless without posting it in the same thread?

[mikehiggins]

36. Folks, it is over already. What we should be looking at is building

lifeboats. I liked the understated optimism of Gore's movie but the bottom line is that things are going to get much worse, and much faster than expected, before anything gets any better. Gore made a cute point by rescuing that frog. Unfortunately, there are no film editors working on this one. Things are getting hot (figuratively AND literally) and the frog is just sitting and waiting to see what happens when LOST comes back on the air next week.

What we should be doing RIGHT NOW is finding ways to relocate people to high ground and let places like Florida and the Gulf Coast states go.

I'm looking out my window here in NYC and watching trees bloom in confusion that matches that of our government. The migratory birds don't know where to go or what to do. Next summer the africanised honey bee will start to be a real problem across the nation and if you think you've seen a lot of illegal immigrants now, just wait until 2008.

Want a prediction? If you don't already own guns, you'd better give some thought to buying some. By 2020, civilization as we know it will be over. I'm just guessing, of course, since I'm not a scientist or something like that. I'm just a relatively old guy who reads and pays attention to what he reads. The tipping point, IMHO, is long past and we are sliding down the greased pole.

Back up your computers, and put all of our accumulated knowledge on longlasting media. Maybe someday it'll be of help to whoever is around to pick up the soggy pieces.

[Harper_is_Bush]

37. Please do not advocate giving up.

I find that spectacle a sad thing. And it's harmful.

[mikehiggins]

42. Give up? That's not the big picture.

What I'm saying is that we, the human race as opposed to Americans, Russians, Chinese, whatever, have to start taking action now simply to keep the species alive.

In Gore's movie he discusses over 100 million people displaced by rising tides, etc, in a geologically irrelevent number of years. Many of those millions will die, if not all of them or more.
Our Western civilization is not prepared to even conceive of a die-off of human beings on so huge a scale, but there it is.

Here in the USA, our food supply is largely geared towards certain climactic conditions, which may very well be among those drastically changed over the next decade (maybe two).

Worse, what is happening is happening on a global scale. For all our claimed technological advances nothing we have can remediate the effects of the last fifty years, at least not in time to keep the glaciers from sliding into the oceans all over the planet. Once that happens it will be an open guess as to how long we will be able to keep civilization afloat (and beleive me, that is no pun) and how long it will take to rebuild it, assuming our species survives in sufficient numbers to do so.

Even hiding in underground bunkers, a la Dr. Strangelove, will do little to help once the waters really rise. The fiercest irony is that our world will be undone, not by madmen with nuclear weapons, but by soccer moms with SUV's, and the like.

And, of course, our own government won't take it seriously unless Halliburton gets the contracts to build the lifeboats.

Hey, one man's pessimism is another's realism. This time I think the odds favor me.

[unkachuck]

39. we have to....

....prioritize....first, we'll end the Iraq war and then we'll do GW....actually, I think we can do both at the same time....we are rather talented people....stupid sometimes, but talented....

....now if you would of asked, 'Who do love more, your Mother or your Wife?' that would have been easy....

[Harper_is_Bush]

40. I love my mother and wife equally.

Global warming vs. Iraq to me is about 9 to 1 in terms of importance.

In 10 years when the projected suffering comes to pass, I will PM you unkachuck. I won't be looking for an apology or a mea culpa, just to hear your comments.

[skids]

47. For this country? The citizenry is the biggest issue.

We are a nation predominantly of workers so scared to miss a debt payment they don't dare act or organize politically, both for fear of repression and lack of time. We live in a constant environment of fear, ignorance and stress. Nothing good can come of us unless there is a sea change in the lives and minds of just about every person in this country -- just voting D isn't enough to do it.

Yes we have our handful of political activists and "the American Dream" is still at least remembered, if only as a dream, but face it -- there's still the 30% backwash even now, and though we all know some great individuals who work their asses off to fulfill their duty as citizens and even make up for several others that do not, collectively we are ignorant, contrarian in all the wrong ways, and simply incapable of doing right by our children.

Unless we revive community and isolate the sociopaths where they can do little harm, we are done for.

[welshTerrier2]

51. symptoms of the same disease - there is NO DIFFERENCE

BIG OIL and other oligopolies have had a stranglehold on the US government for more than one hundred years ... we are in Iraq because BIG OIL wants Iraq's oil (and they're going to get Iraq's oil) and we kill electric cars and promote resource intensive lifestyles because Big Oil makes more money when we consume their product ... C02, War, rich get richer poor get poorer - IT'S ALL THE SAME PROBLEM ...

let me coin a phrase to solve, or at least to begin to address these problems: Power to the People ...

fighting battles against global warming or fighting to stop the war (this one or the next one) are all good - but nothing will change and there can be no real progress until We The People wake up and take back our country ...

[intheflow]

54. Global warming makes all human struggles look like so many ants fighting.

Without a planet, there wouldn't be an Iraq war, or any war, or any human peace, or any human. End of story. I'm far more worried about global warming than Iraq--although Iraq and all warfare helps increase global warming with the bomb fires and fossil fuel burned to deliver death.

:kick:

[snot]

55. Election Reform. Media Reform.

Without those, we won't get very far on anything else.

[me b zola]

57. But we don't need to choose...we can address both NOW.

I don't like breaking the conversation down into "which comes first". It is imperative that we deal with both NOW.

[IndyOp]

59. I am with me b zola - BOTH NOW - we need the $$ currently being

spent to kill many innocent men, women, and children to transition our energy supplies and help the rest of the world develop clean energy so their standard of living can rise even as our world changes.

ALL or NONE.

[saracat]

58. I am glad to see Global Warming in the lead as it often appears that some have NO other issue than

the War.And while ending the War is important, I think it is extremely shortsighted to think it is the only issue that needs tending to. I would have also added Human Rights to issues that we should be concerned with. Just saying.

[kster]

63. Hand Counting Paper Ballots, NO MACHINES

without this one thing happening, we will not be able to do anything about Global Warming or Iraq (period)

[Jcrowley]

64. False dichotomy

Number one culprit of global greenhouse gasses:

US Military

[Auntie Bush]

65. I don't see why we can't do both at the same time. We Dems can

walk and chew at the same time...can't we?

If I must chose...I say the Iraq war which can soon escalate into world war III. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people will be killed and much of our earth will be contaminated. That seems to be the most urgent issue right now.

[Recursion]

66. Iraq is a gunshot wound; global warming is a cancer

You have to stop the bleeding first.

[tavalon]

67. Weird question

They both matter a lot as do many other issues. I'm not a one issue person.

[rman]

68. other: both + peak oil

Where the Iraq war is merely one aspect of how 'world leaders' are dealing with both global warming and peak oil.

[mtnsnake]

70. Global warming first, then the out of control global population explosion

Both desperately need to be controlled. Sadly, it's the animals that will take the brunt of it first, as always. Whether it's global warming, destruction of the rain forests, or greedy land development in the United States, I feel for animals more than I do humans because they're innocent and have no control. Humans are idiots.

I'm glad the poll is going the way of global warming, although Iraq is certainly critical, too.

[GeorgeGist]

71. Strawmen ...

always choose one most important issue... until they find a better one.