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Evolution vs Christian literalists: No Peace/No Surrender - Part II

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Robert Cooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:09 PM
Original message
Evolution vs Christian literalists: No Peace/No Surrender - Part II
Edited on Wed Dec-28-05 01:11 PM by Robert Cooper
Let's try this again, shall we?


Having read Judge Jones judgment as well as most of the reactions of various interested parties, I am struck by the secular inability to understand Evolution's opponents. I hope to provide some clarity.

Repeatedly we see editorials and opinions claiming that Christianity is not being attacked by Evolution, that Evolution and God can co-exist peacefully, that the problems arise when some Christians try to force their beliefs upon others.

And there is some truth to this, but not the whole truth. Within Christianity there is a broad spectrum of beliefs regarding the interpretation of the Bible.

On one hand there are those who see the Bible as a combination of history and metaphor: a collection of the stories and wisdom of Abraham's descendants in the Old Testament, a collection of stories and wisdom of Jesus of Nazareth and his followers in the New testament.

On the other hand there are those who see the Bible as a divinely-inspired document, every word the literal Truth as told by God through a variety of representatives. it is upon this faith that they build their religious beliefs.

It is true that for those whose religious beliefs interpret the Bible as history and metaphor that Evolution poses no threat.

But not true for those whose religion is based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. For them, Evolution is a direct contradiction to their religious beliefs. The Bible describes six days of creation, co-existence between humans and all created animals, a global flood involving a family and ark that saved breeding pairs of every animal... neither Evolution nor Geology support these claims. Indeed, both sciences deal harshly with such claims.

Most certainly, when it comes to the question of how Humanity came to exist, the literalists and Evolution are most at odds with one another. While the Bible literally states Man was created in the image of God, Evolution clearly states that Humanity arose from preceding species of hominids that arose from preceding species of apes.

Evolution cannot offer any comfort for the literalists, and literalists cannot make any exceptions for Evolution yet remain true to its religious premise: the literal interpretation of the Bible.

In his decision on Kitzmiller et al vs Dover, Judge Jones wrote:

"As articulated by the Supreme Court, under the Lemon test, a government-sponsored message violates the Establishment Clause of the First Ammendment if: (1) it does not have a secular purpose; (2) its principle or primary effect advances or inhibits religion; or (3) it creates an excessive entanglement of the government with religion. Lemon, 403 U.S. at 612-13." (Page 90 Of Judge Jones' decision).

Note the words in Item 2: "its principle or primary effect advances or inhibits religion". Let me make it more clear: "its principle or primary effect ... inhibits religion".

In the case of Christian literalists, Evolution most certainly "inhibits" their religious beliefs, most especially their ability to teach their faith to their school-aged children attending public schools where Evolution is taught. There is no compromise possible between a strict literal interpretation of Genesis and the scientific certainty that supports the Evolution paradigm.

Now look at Item 3: "it creates an excessive entanglement of the government with religion". Can it not be argued that this is exactly what is happening within the community of Christian literalists?

On Page 36 of his decision, Judge Jones writes: "The Supreme Court instructed in Edwards that it has been particularly 'vigilant in monitoring compliance with the Establishment Clause in elementary and secondary schools'. 482 U.S. at 583-84. The Supreme Court went on to state: Families entrust public schools with the education of their children, but condition their trust on the understanding that the classroom will not purposely be used to advance religious views that may conflict with the private beliefs of the student and his or her family. Students in such institutions are impressionable and their attendance is involuntary.
Id. (citing Grand Rapids Sch. Dist. v. Ball, 473 U.S. 373, 383 (1985); Wallace, 472 U.S. at 60 n.51)."

This might help some of you understand why the Christian literalists continually assert that Evolution is a "religion" and/or "philosophy". If you believe that Genesis is the literal truth of God, any contradiction cannot be true. "Science" is defined as that knowledge which does not conflict with an acceptance of the literal interpretation of the Bible. Since Evolution contradicts this interpretation, Evolution must not be "science". Ergo, Evolution is a faith-based pseudo-"science".

From that religious point of view, re-read that quote from the Supreme Court and you can see why Christian literalists seek an end to Evolution in the classroom. For the literalists, Evolution is the "religious view" that conflicts "with the private beliefs of the student and his or her family". And as SCOTUS states: "Students in such institutions are impressionable and their attendance is involuntary."

As long as the courts adhere to an interpretation of Evolution as a secular science, the literalist interpretation of Evolution as a religion cannot stand. Thus the many attacks on Evolution's legitimacy as a secular science by literalists.

So far, Evolution stands.

But there is a brooding silence on the issue of secular education's impact on Christians whose religious beliefs require a literal interpretation of the Bible. The religious beliefs of these groups, often forming significant majorities, are under assault by secular education. The question: is the state actively working to undermine a religious group by teaching their children ("Students in such institutions are impressionable and their attendance is involuntary") that there is no basis for literal belief in their sacred book?

I hope you can see this is not a simple open-and-shut case. The danger of the state attacking a religion is just as serious as the state imposing a religion. In this case, tax dollars from Christian literalists are used to fund a secular education that can't help but challenge the religious beliefs of Christian literalists. They are being required to pay for the demise of their own faith.

When the Constitution was written, Darwin hadn't described Evolution. Back then, secular education did not contradict the Bible in any significant way. Constitutional literalists like Scalia will have a difficult time working through this issue. It was unforeseen.

Under these conditions, there can be no surrender and there will be no peace.

For the sake of completeness, I'll point out I am not a Christian literalist, and that I hold Evolution to be good science. I think that if the Democrats are to address this issue, it is important they understand it.

I hope I've contributed to that understanding.

(edit: typo)
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Please read Jefferson's views on religion and education...
as well as many other founding fathers who would disagree with you.

http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm
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Robert Cooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Weren't they writing around the time Darwin was born?...
...and at a time when there was no established school system, at a time when religion was much more prominent in society than now?

SCOTUS' Lemon test seems much more relevant to today's problem.

And thanks for the link. I -am- interested in what they have to say. But I hope you'll recognize the distance between them and us.
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I disagree with your analysis of the "Lemon test"...
You are using a false premise that science is a sort of religion.IMO

Religion is opinion and is based on faith not facts. Science is based on facts and observable evidence.
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Robert Cooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. You've misunderstood the premise...
...there is an obvious clash between evolution theory and Genesis.

Evolution, like communism, does not have to be a religion to come into conflict with Christians literalism.

I don't see the relevancy of your last paragraph. Item 2 of the Lemon test seems fair-handed towards science and religion: essentially that the government will remain neutral.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Jefferson the Naturalist would have been fascinated by Evolution.
The Academy of Natural Sciences has an online exhibition of his fossil collection.

www.acnatsci.org/museum/jefferson/index.html

Jefferson is rightfully renowned as the principal author of the Declaration of Independence, the Third President of the United States, and a champion of Liberty. But he was also a central player in the beginnings of American paleontology. In addition, his participation occurred at a time when people were struggling with the ideas of fossils as evidence of past life, of extinction, and of an Earth far older than the Biblical account.



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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. No Surrender
If the Christian Literalists want to turn the public school sytem in this country into their version of a madrassa then they can expect a tooth and nail fight. You want your child to learn that Noah's Flood actually happened, and that we are all literally decended from Adam and his rib Eve, then go ahead, but keep it out of anything other than a comparative theology class.
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Robert Cooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I'm not suggesting we incorporate religion into school...
...I'm asking if their children's religious beliefs enjoy protection from state interference, as is suggested in Items 2 and 3 of the Lemon test.
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Rights--NOT BELIEFS--are protected.
The right to practice freely is protected.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. children don't have religious beliefs
You see, if I were to say that my child's Wicca beliefs enjoy protection from the state interference of teaching evolution as a basis for teaching Wicca creation mythology in public schools, that issue would no longer be considered a valid legal test.

Your argument says "some Christians", positing a "good christian / bad christian" dichotomy. In reality the label is irrelevant. That's what makes scientific "theory" (I mean in the hypothesis/proof sense) not only a valid description of the biological world and processes around us, but also a valid structure for understanding scientific thinking.

In my mind the clearest argument is not one that splits hairs or seeks to be understanding. Science is science and creationism and ID are not. You teach science in science classes, and religion in religious studies.

Religious studies are a waste of public school resources and in the public school system would be prone to abuse in anything but the most objective comparative religion class. Madrassas turn out degreed religious scholars who can't get jobs as engineers and lawyers, and a class of underemployed and often undereducated people easily swayed by authoritarian gestures and authoritarian leaders. Oh wait a second, I'm describing America, not Afghanistan.;)



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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent, rational analysis!
Good work, and thanks for the time you took to do it. K&R

Those poor, literalist fools don't understand that they're nothing but cannon fodder in the culture wars. If they weren't so utterly hateful, I could almost muster some sympathy for them, sitting there at the dinner table and bemoaing the lot of humankind, led astray by a gossipy water moccasin.
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Robert Cooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Thank you...
...I don't think compassion should be limited by the popularity of a group. Many people risked their lives and the lives of their families and friends to hide Jews from the Nazis.

I don't see anyone benefiting from the state interfering with the religious beliefs of children. It creates an enormous amount of hostility in the parents of these children, which influences their dealings with government.

A cooperative, compassionate solution seems essential to unravel the problem.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Please detail your "cooperative, compassionate solution"
I don't agree that including Evolution in the public school curriculum is religious persecution.

But--if it were--what would you do about it?
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. the state attacking a religion - bullshit
facts are at odds with their religion. FACTS, SIMPLE, PROVABLE FACTS! if they can't reconcile that, that is their problem. they are free to send their children to parochial schools that support their delusions.
as far as being required to pay for the demise of their own faith, that is bull, also. the only other choice is for me to pay for the demise of truth and sanity.
there is a wall. there needs to be a wall. keep the delusions on the personal side of the wall.
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MN ChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. Right on. mopinko
"Biblical literalists" are insane. Religiously insane. They deny facts that cannot be ignored away. Evolution is a "theory" in the same sense as gravity or the heliocentric solar system. It is supported by observable facts and is subject to being disproved via the scientific method.

The proper place for "biblical literalists" is in a lunatic asylum. They are delusional and completely disconnected from reality. That is a textbook definition of serious mental illness.
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ShockediSay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. "if the Democrats are to address this issue, it is important
they understand it, AND SPEAK PLAINLY, e.g.,

who says God did not create evolution. Doesn't the Bible say God only speaks to us in parables?

If God is ever present, who says God is not present in evolution? Not us!
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. So--it comes down to the tax dollars....
I hope you can see this is not a simple open-and-shut case. The danger of the state attacking a religion is just as serious as the state imposing a religion. In this case, tax dollars from Christian literalists are used to fund a secular education that can't help but challenge the religious beliefs of Christian literalists. They are being required to pay for the demise of their own faith.

Those who embrace Biblical Inerrancy are free to supplement their children's public school education. Or they can send them to private schools--although most private schools have no problem with science. Or they can teach them at home. Without vouchers.

Sorry, your thesis has not grown more convincing.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. locking
Do not start a new topic in order to continue a flame war from another discussion thread.

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Robert Cooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I'm not continuing a flame war.
I'm continuing to discuss an issue that is of interest to me.
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SkiGuy Donating Member (451 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. Good job looking at both sides of this issue
"But, for God's sake, let us freely hear both sides, if we choose." Thomas Jefferson
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. great read -- and i think you have nailed down a certain
section of the u.s. population.

they are a crew that has an agenda -- they aren't stupid -- they have lawyers and they are willing to fight tooth and nail for what they want.

the underlying issue for me is more disturbing -- religious conservatives{they fall into two camps, by the way, the literalists and then the william f. buckley crew} want to educate america's children -- their way.

they want prayer back in schools.

they have an abiding belief that America was better at some other point in it's history.

the folks at the heritage foundation are deeply involved in pushing this agenda -- deeply.
i'm sorry that some duer's seem dismissive of you reasoning -- what they don't get is -- they aren't going away -- period.
they will come back again and again.

it also characterizes why moderates -- to me anyway -- are extremists, because THIS is a point of view they could well compromise on.

if liberals, socialists, unionist, the democratic party -- whatever -- want to get back in the game -- we need the equivalent of a revival, a renaissance -- a fervent energized drive to convert from conservative to liberal.

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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
22. locking
for the same reason in #1o
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