There seems to be so much anger toward people in other countries bettering themselves

[RB TexLa]

on DU recently.

No one is stealing or taking jobs from anyone, people don't own their jobs. If I employ 20 people here in Dallas and I choose to move to Miami, and none of them want to follow, I have not stolen anything from them. The world being more connected through commerce is not a bad thing, in fact it is a very good thing.

The move to a global economy is just a larger scale of the move to a national economy that advances in transportation brought about. We aren't the ones who historically fight change, technology, and internationalism.

[Jim Sagle]

1. DLC hogwash!

[silverojo]

19. You phrased that more politely than I would've

:evilgrin:

[Jim Sagle]

45. I've been there. The mods like me better now.

;-)

[uppityperson]

2. are you going to pay them the same with same work benefits?

[mike_c]

3. it's called imperialism...

...and it sucks.

[Union Thug]

4. the global economy has proven to be a race to the bottom..

unless globalization also includes regulations designed to protect workers, ensure liveable wages, imprison the rich piles of shit who run the sweatshops, it will continue to be used to enslave workers to shit jobs at shit wages with shit benefits and a lifetime of wage drudgery to look forward to.

[Warpy]

5. Jeezus, what a pile of crap!

The problem is that globalism was supposed to drop trade barriers allowing multinational corporations to open plants near points of consumption all over the world, lifting whole regions and even countries out of the perceived poverty of subsistence living.

In the meantime, plants in the US would produce goods and services near the point of consumption in the US.

I can think of no major objection to that model.

However, what happened is that multinational corporations stripped whole industries out of this country and set them up in countries where people could be paid in cheap currencies. This has had terrible effects from the destruction of jobs that paid a living wage, increasing the balance of trade deficit to the point our own currency is now rapidly losing value in world currency markets, and leaving us without enough basic industries to survive the next big war, let alone win it.

This is how free trade as practiced by multinational corporations is killing this country along with the people who live within it. It is a completely different proposition from moving an industry from one area of a country to another.

I suggest posting DLC propaganda on this board is not a good idea.

[ProfessorGAC]

38. Well Analyzed

And in fact, the companies that followed the model as you described have been quite successful with it. Plants still open in the U.S. and Canada. Products made here sold here. Products made overseas sold overseas. This is a huge factor in the consumer products and food markets that has made several companies tons of profit.

You hit the nail squarely on the head with that analysis, Warpy.
The Professor

[Warpy]

42. Thanks, Prof, but I should have cited the Heinz Corporation

as one that has followed the ideal pattern I set out.

Yes, it has worked in real life. Unfortunately, the corporate "person" is a sociopathic one that seeks only profit and doesn't recognize the needs of either people or nations, and most of them have gleefully abandoned both in search of cheaper wages and lax laws.

That's why this country is in trouble that most folks don't recognize yet.

[LostinVA]

39. Good post

[mitchum]

6. How about if the labor and ingenuity of those 20 in Dallas are what allowed...

you to build "your" company in such a way that you were able to make that move to Miami?

Fuck that weak DLC shit

[RB TexLa]

8. Their work would contribute to the building of the company, that would be

why I would have employed and paid them.

[mitchum]

10. Spoken like a true two bit captain of industry

[girl gone mad]

33. Why wouldn't you offer to let them keep their jobs?

Most companies that relocate within our borders do.

[RB TexLa]

43. I said "and none of them want to follow"

This was just an example. I have associates but they are not employees, they only receive training from me.

[girl gone mad]

51. Then that's complpetely different..

than outsourcing to another country.

[Trajan]

7. This is such a generalized assertion ....

So ... moving most of the US manufacturing base offshore to china is the same as moving one company's 20 employee's job to Miami ?

Same thing, eh ?

This is a grand vision you have .... an absolute ideal ... but let's face it: the whole purpose in the push to offshore manufactoring jobs is to deny US workers their HIGH wages and HIGH compensation packages in favor of workers in other countries who will do the work at 5% of the cost of a US worker ....

Yeah .... THAT worker is 'improving their life', and that is a good thing, but at what cost HERE ?

This kind of idealism works best in the rah rah world of globalistic sales pitches and investment seminars .....

It's a kind of rough sell in the home of a laid off autoworker ......

[leftofthedial]

9. take that crap to libertarian underground

workers rightfully own the means of production

[mitchum]

11. C'mon, you know on his casual Fridays, "his" workers are allowed to wear...

Dockers and an Ayn Rand tshirt.
Don't speak so harshly of him!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

12. OMG, LOL, some of the OP's I've seen lately are mind boggling.

:rofl: MKJ

[cigsandcoffee]

13. I agree wholeheartedly.

If the world is going to eventually unite, then we are all going to have to share an economic system. IMO, (regulated) economic globalization is the fastest, most logical, and most direct method to world peace.

[Critters2]

46. O God, that is wrong on so many levels

I think my brain is going to implode.

Please tell me you forgot the :sarcasm: thingy!

[JCMach1]

14. It is a race to the bottom which often leaves poor countries behind as well

Countries like Bangladesh and Cambodia now face incredible competition from China after investing Billions in the garment industry.

Why? Thousands and thousands of workers in those countries have become unionized over the past 15 years...


Now, companies send their orders to non-unionized slave-labor China creating more poverty in the wake...

[cigsandcoffee]

17. It has pitfalls and benefits.

India has upped its prosperity immensely, as has Chiana - and God knows those two countries have an awful lot of mouths to feed (along with sketchy histories of getting that task accomplished).

[JCMach1]

29. Huge pitfalls... while true millions have been lifted out of poverty there is now such

a huge gulf between rich and poor it is bound to produce more unrest.

In fact, recent years in China have brought a huge amount of unrest (this doesn't often get reported in the MSM as it doesn't meet the media image of China).



The growing gap between the many poor and the few wealthy in China is feeding rising unrest. China's Communist leadership reported at least 87,000 uprisings last year, most of them in the countryside. Rampant corruption, the lack of a social safety net and extensive environmental damage are fueling the discontent. VOA's Luis Ramirez recently traveled into some remote villages in China, and filed these reports... http://www.voanews.com/english/Rural-Unrest-in-China.cfm

[eridani]

40. Tell that to all the farmers in China and India who have committed suicide n/t

[Dogmudgeon]

15. No, we're against the capitalists worsening people in THIS country

Ever been "downsized"?

Had your job "offshored"?

Been told to toe the line because you could be replaced?

World development is, indeed, a Good Thing. But this is about the grand zero-sum game of international Three Card Monte that the business class in the USA is playing. The world economy is currently contracting, but it's being sold as something pure and sweet and noble.

When the reckoning finally comes, the "petit bourgeoisie" will be just as fucked as the working people are. And they will have the additional burden of conscience knowing that they helped it along. They will realize that they sold out their countrymen and, lo and behold, were part of the same package.

All the airy talk of economic "betterment" is merely lipstick on the pig. To use another animal metaphor: Don't parrot it.

--p!

[dave_p]

18. I'm for better conditions in all countries

The world economy is not contracting. It's expanding fairly steadily.

Its benefits are also being increasingly monopolized by a few. That's happening in America even more.

Inequality is an issue for everyone, working together.

This is not a matter of America vs. The Rest. It's about people who want a better world, wherever they are.

There's betterment out there for everyone. It has to be worked out, collectively.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

20. A global economy is an even bigger prize for the greedy, powerful folks among us.

The looting done by the cabal in the WH would be child's play compared to the looting done by the annointed few who stand to obscenely profit from world corporations. MKJ

[sandnsea]

31. It's the problem and the solution

It's the best way to life people out of poverty, when proper laws and regulations are in place. It's also the fastest way to drive people into a life of poverty and despair, when all the worker and environmental protections are non-existent. It's a constant struggle for the bottom 90%, and sadly some of those IN that 90% don't even understand they're in the fight too.

[treestar]

49. But it isn't a zero sum game

And it isn't a "race to the bottom."

And why believe every word your boss tells you? Of course they want you to think you can be replaced immediately and that you have no other options.

But that may not be so. It's a form of control. Similar to the "man shortage" but even more ridiculous as the economy is not static. You could start up a company that will put them out of business one day, they know that, this is why they tell you all this ridiculous shit.

If you buy it, they win. You are in effect dependent upon them. They have the power because they "deserve" it by being the only ones capable of running a company and being the employer.

[dave_p]

16. Don't throw the baby out with the "But"'s

Protectionism doesn't do anyone any favors.

I'm a great believer in appropriate policy rather than one-size-fits-all mantra. Protection has its place, in promoting or preserving vulnerable industries or maintaining national policy integrity.

But that shouldn't undermine our effectiveness as good world citizens. How do the poor work themselves out of poverty if they can't trade? How do we achieve the more interconnected world that underpins peaceful cooperation?

Democrats need to strike a balance between legitimate policy action to defend workers at home, and a constructive role in the world economy.

I don't trust globalization any more than its other critics. The challenge is to make it work for all, including workers at home and abroad.

Don't let mantra blind you to your responsibility to maximise America's genuinely positive potential in the world.

[Dogmudgeon]

22. That would be nice. Except for one small fact.

It's all about money -- period. Nothing else matters, and it's enshrined in law, too -- if a CEO fails to pursue maximum profit, stockholders may sue, and the government may prosecute for any or all forms of financial misbehavior. Whenever there's talk of "growing the wealth", it's always about growing the wealth of the rich and powerful at the expense of everyone whose pockets they can get their hands into. Altruistic talk is cheap; even good corporate flak writers only make about $25 per hour.

The way to change this is through intelligent policy and lawmaking that returns some of the money to those who "helped" the rich make it. The manner of that return is subject to debate, but the non-stop money vacuum-cleaner has to stop at some point -- the money will be gone. However, such a notion is decried as "socialism", an affront to God and Country. This has been going on in earnest since the 1870s, when the anti-slavery laws were twisted to declare corporations as human beings.

Globalism is being run as a computer-assisted form of feudalism, with enough scribes hired to make it appear to be the work of God. It's not. It's a system of naked greed that takes money and power away from the many as efficiently as possible. The pickings are made as easy as possible, and with as little stress on the entrepreneurs' consciences as possible. The only thing that isn't possible is the enrichment of those who are easily picked from.

And it doesn't matter whether the source of those easy pickings is Xianqing, Uttar Pradesh, or Detroit.

--p!

[dave_p]

24. All true

... just control it, don't be its victim.

There are collective dividends. I'm just saying we need to take control of it, for all. Surely that's the progressive mission.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

21. BTW, I'm appalled to see an OP promoting corporate domination get 5 recs.

:eyes: MKJ

[Vincardog]

23. No body has any problem with people in other countries bettering themselves

I for one have a big problem with parasitic corporations destroying the middle class. WTF is wrong with fighting for fair trade in stead of flat earth faux free trade?

[magellan]

25. It's the haves who are getting more connected, not the have-nots

Ask the peasant class in India (which comprises a huge percentage of their population) what globalization has done for them. The answer is absolutely nothing, except increase the divide between themselves and those with the education to land the "free market" jobs in the cities.

Do you suppose the trickle-down effect will reach those poor Indians before the global market moves on to pillage cheap labor in new fertile grounds? I doubt it. Especially not when there'll be a multitude of freshly unemployed middle-class Indians looking for a way to keep themselves fed and housed.

Kinda like here.

[Sapphire Blue]

26. Who exactly is angry "toward people in other countries bettering themselves"?

Exactly how does outsourcing help people in other countries "better themselves" when the wages that they are paid are so low, their human rights are violated, and environmental regulations are practically nonexistant? Is becoming a victim of slave labor "bettering one's self?

Might you be defending CEOs, who are profiting from outsourcing to cheap labor, profiting on the backs of the poor of the world?

BTW, how much better off are workers in the Marianas Islands?

[On the Road]

27. Surely You Expected This Reaction

Your analogy is actually a good one. Offshoring is movement to the Sun Belt writ large. Northeasterners have been losing their higher-paid union jobs to "right-to-work" states in the Sun Belt for decades.

The fact that it's a good analogy does not mean that it's an equally good (or bad) idea. Globalization is regionalization on steroids. What used to be a manageable trickle is a flood. When quotas on Chinese textiles were lifted (2005?), cheap imports in certain categories immediately jumped by 1,000%. No domestic textile industry can survive that. Someone has to be minding the store and decide whether the US really wants to give away entire industries like this.

Now it's not necessarily a bad idea to cede the textile industry to foreigners as long as comparable jobs are being created. There has been no American lost its shoe industry decades ago. Toys have been offshored more recently. Both of these happened slowly and the economy absorbed the loss. In fact, keeping all manufacturing in the US would have created massive labor shortages and seriously hurt the economy for everyone.

But opening the floodgates and setting absolutely no controls is asking for a disaster for the hourly worker. It's a wonder it hasn't been worse.

Our elected leaders created this climate and set the ground rules. They're the ones who should be watching out for our interests. Clinton talked about making NAFTA better, but in practice did very little. Republicans, despitre their free-trade rhetoric, have actually done much more to set high import tariffs, but it tends to be done politically and strategically for donors rather than economically or for the worker.

There are plenty of jobs in this country. As an American, my interest is in seeing them better compensated with less dislocation.

However, as a citizen of the world, my interest is in everyone regardless of their country. The one thing I will say for globalization is that it has done far more good for far more people in Asia than it's done bad for American workers. It is not an easy situation to deal with.

[LostInAnomie]

28. I love the use of the innocuous phrase "bettering themselves."

When "bettering themselves" really means allowing themselves to be exploited so they don't have to watch their children starve to death, and investors can reap huge profits.

Free market enthusiasts never see the downside to their heartless greed. As long as the stock prices keep ticking upward and the profit margins keep growing who gives a shit about the families they uproot? Who cares that 20 years of faithful service is rewarded with a big "Fuck you" and "Go back to school and get some new skills, Grandpa"? Who cares that whole towns' become economically ruined by plant closings just so greedy capitalist fucks can move the plant to China and pay next to nothing?

Personally, I hope this globalization shit keeps on churning. I hope that the capitalists keep downsizing and off-shoring with a complete disregard for their employees and the economic health of the country. I hope that they keep thinking that their wealth allows them to crush the weak whenever the mood suits them. It only speeds the process needed to show the workers that something has to be done. The worse the free market vampires make it the sooner it happens.

[sandnsea]

30. Northern jobs went to the south first

The south didn't have the same labor protections, city infrastructure, social services, environmental laws, so it was cheaper to do business in the south. They didn't steal the jobs, but that was the first step on the downward spiral. Funny they're the ones doing the bitching now that the shoe is on the other foot. And too many still don't get the solution is to raise standards so competition is more fair and the actual human beings benefit instead of the top 2%.

[w4rma]

32. con-artist BS. (nt)

[crispini]

34. Dallas and Miami have comparable standards of living,

comparable environmental regulations, comparable child labor laws. Dallas and Shanghai, or Dallas and Mumbai, do NOT. Your analogy is hogwash.

[girl gone mad]

35. Sounds like more white people saving brown people garbage.

Did it ever occur to you that people in other countries may be better off in the long run without our interference? How, exactly is China better because 20% of their population now has more disposable income and can afford to emulate the Western lifestyle? Many parts of the country have become environmental wastelands. Property has been taken from people who inhabited it for centuries in the name of industrial progress. Positive political reforms have been held up because of influence from US corporations. China, a country with a long and rich history of advanced engineering now spends much of its resources making cheap, disposable dollar store junk.

By your standard, wasn't British colonization just people bettering themselves? How about American slavery? Plenty of confederate apologists still argue that slaves were better off on our shores than they had been in Africa. Maybe a few of them actually were. Would that justify the slave trade?

[Solon]

36. Only you would think forcing 13 year olds to work in gament factories for 16 hours...

a day is "bettering themselves". Fuck that shit.

[fasttense]

37. You start with a faulty premise

The hourly/daily wages in India and Mexico actually DECREASED when US companies moved their factories to those countries.

US corporations moved to foreign countries on the premise of paying the lowest going rate for labor to make profits. They offered workers the lowest amounts they could get away with.

The average waged dropped in both India and Mexico. Why do you think Mexicans are still willing to risk crossing the border under dangerous conditions?

So how exactly are people in other countries bettering themselves when their wages drop?

[Bridget Burke]

41. Anger toward the soulless corporations is more fruitful....

Than anger against call-center folks who don't have the right accent.

I agree with the many who disagree with how the global economy is being implemented. But I hope that they are taking their business elsewhere, rather than directing their anger in the wrong direction.

[BoneDaddy]

44. Your analogy is ridiculous

if you move from DAllas to Miami, you have (AT THE VERY LEAST) kept the jobs in America, most likely pay a living wage and are re-contributing to the economy.

If you are referring to the corporations who get their start up in America, usually off the backs of the tax payers who help start them up, then move to foreign countries simply to make a profit, possibly at slave wages or indentured servitude and no longer have any responsibility to the country that allowed them their original charter then you are talking about something very very different.

Not to mention, many of these corporations destroy the way of life of many poorer countries and thus the people are beholden to work for them to merely survive.

Nice way to push off crap with some perfume on it.

[blues90]

47. What are you on ?

Moving a job to miami is not moving one out of the country . You make no sense at all .

Lets say we outsource your job and offer you one for min wage and just say be happy another chinese worker is now doing just fine or we can inport the worker to do your job for min wage so take it or leave it .

[treestar]

48. IA, a job is not static and not the property of a race or nationality

We need more people working for themselves in this country. Working for others and feeling that only someone else can employ you is killing the spirit of this culture. It's like a helplessness.

We get upset when they outsource "our" jobs, but we're still here and why don't we make our own jobs and give the corporations the finger rather than letting ourselves feel victimized by them and letting them have that triumph?

[Rex]

50. Bettering themselves are our expense and no

I'm not blaming them personally. Everyone needs to work in order to pay bills to survive. We all know that. Outsourcing is stupid, it is a techno-trend and one that is not user friendly.