A round of shots on the house

[tcfrogs]

That was offered from the owner of the bar I visited tonight, once the Saddam hanging was "finalized".

Didn't know exactly how to react. I gladly accepted the free booze, but is it really a celebration when you end someone's life?

[Stephanie]

1. murder is murder is murder

and a public hanging is barbaric, period.

[sanskritwarrior]

5. Some of us

feel differently.

I would toast to Saddam's death just like I would toast to Bin Laden's death, just like I would toast to Kim Jong Il's death.

Please don't flame, not attacking you, just stating a difference of opinion.

[seabeyond]

9. not flaming

just stating. the joy in anothers death, the celebrating of death then no longer has to do with the other persons bad. what they did. but then it all becomes about who you are as a person. it becomes a statement about you

[sanskritwarrior]

13. How so??

[seabeyond]

17. you action is yours alone. only you are responsible for it, own it

cant believe you ask how so. it is very clear, and simple. saddams action is his, and he pays the price. your joy or celebration with his death is yours alone. it is a statement on who you are as a person.

not a tough one.

[sanskritwarrior]

20. That's one theory

not neccessarily one I subscribe to......but hey to each their own. Unless you are a genocidal dictator ;)

[seabeyond]

27. oh

so your actions are not reflective of who you are. all the fault and responsiblity of who? the unknown. but you certainly arent responsible for your self. generally when people are confronted with their ugliness, and want to continue that ugliness, they ignore it, so they can continue on with no remorse or self reflection. lots of people setting that example in our world today.

[Stephanie]

12. When Dick has his final heart attack I'll raise a toast.

But I wouldn't agree wtih hanging him for war crimes. He should suffer in prison instead.

[sanskritwarrior]

16. That's your right

just as it is my right to have a party tonight toasting Saddams death.

I have some other guys from my unit and we are going to have a little shindig.......

how do you use emoticons

[Stephanie]

19. Normally I welcome newbies to DU

But I won't tonight.

This is an act of barbarism that has no place in modern society. When you wage war to bring basic human rights to a foreign nation, as this war was touted to be in its umpteenth justification, then you must accord those human rights even to its villains. Public lynchings are unacceptable, period. Viewing a lynching , celebrating a lynching, it's just barbaric, there's no other word for it.

[sanskritwarrior]

22. Ok

I'm sorry I disapoint you so much. I have been in that war, it was never about human rights for anything or anyone. Yet another misadministration lie. I am a supporter of the DP in all its myriad forms, guess that's the texan in me. I am not a christian so I have no other cheek to turn. You say hanging a dictator is barbarism, I say it is justice, poetic justice at that. The real poetic justice would have been to turn over Saddam to a mob of Kurds or Shia from Dujail. Thinking such thoughts doesn't make me less of a Democrat or less progressive in my outlook. It means you and I don't agree on this issue. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Stephanie]

24. You don't know what "progressive" means.

Why don't you look it up.

[sanskritwarrior]

29. I do know

and I know I am new and carry little to no clout, but I do not believe you get to tell me what I am or what I am not. That being said I am a progressive and I am happy saddam is dead.

Like I said in an earlier post paraphrasing Star Wars: Only a sith deals in absolutes.

So I would appreciate you not deciding for me what I am and what I am not.

[Stephanie]

33. You don't get to create your own definition of progressive politics

We are a reality-based community here. Facts are facts, and supporting the death penalty is not a progressive position. You don't get to label yourself progressive when you aren't. That would be what we like to refer to around here as a LIE.

[sanskritwarrior]

37. Ok great...

you don't think I am a progressive. The reality is I vote for progressive candidates, I send them money. The reality is I nor anyone else has to march lockstep with progressives to be one. I am one because I support them on most issues, the DP just aint one of them. So please I would appreciate it if you would deign not to create my reality for me and please let me live in the one that is the real reality.

As I said earlier, I'm not looking for a brow beating so madam I leave the field of battle to you. It is easier to withdraw than to convince you of my progressiveness........

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. Know What? I Really Like You. You Seem Civil And Intelligent. I Hope To Hell You're For Real.

Not insinuating that you aren't, but please understand there is always a 'cautious' type period with new posters. But from what I've seen from you so far, you seem quite level headed, intelligent, sincere and civil (one of these days I've gotta figure out how to reply to attack or false accusation with more civility instead of defensiveness. You seem to do a good job with that). You also just learned quite quickly how 'thick skinned' ya need to be to post here, as it can get real rough sometimes. But you'll also find DU will quickly become amazingly addictive.

Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[sanskritwarrior]

51. I'm a soldier

and an OIF veteran my skin is plenty thick. I am who I say I am. I have no problem with Stephanie, I just don't understand the "absoluteness" she is using. It sounds a little bit like zealotry. I do not know her so if she is overzealous about her beliefs, that's her perogative. I just expect someone to not be rude.

As for my newness, I have lurked around enough to see how many freeptards get in here. So any skepticism I understand, my words and deeds will have to prove my loyalties.

thank you for your kind words.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

55. And Thanks For Your Service As Well.

Glad to have you here.

[Trajan]

60. Well ... Most progressives dont celebrate death ....

Liberalism is NOT a cult of death, but quite the opposite ...

So when someone comes here and praises death, even of an adversary, it might give pause around here as to what someone actually believes and what philosophy one actually adheres to ...

Even if a person 'deserves' the punishment of death, it really doesnt mean a 'celebration' would be in order ... because deep down, the whole reason Saddam was tried and convicted was that he caused someone elses death .... Do we celebrate the deaths of Saddams victims ? .... IF we celebrate death, do we celebrate ALL death, or just some of it ? ...

What moral authority do we possess when we condemn a man for causing death, and THEN go on to cause death ourselves ? .... Why is it IMMORAL for one man to cause death and moral for another ? ...

As much as I despise Saddam, he could have rotted in a prison cell just as easily and effectively satisfied the need for justice ....

We didnt need to do what Saddam does to bring justice to Saddam for his crimes ....

The moral case against causing death is universal .... it doesnt stop at one persons skin .... It applies to EVERYONE, or it applies to no one ...

[The Magistrate]

56. Execution Of A Guilty Murderer Does Not Trouble Me At All, Ma'am

[ellisonz]

61. What a high horse...

:eyes:

[VelmaD]

26. Don't blame it on being a Texan

My family has been in Texas for generations and I'm as opposed to the DP as it is possible to be.

[sanskritwarrior]

30. I'm not blaming anything

I like it actually.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

41. You're no different than the fucking ghouls who rang the church bells in my town.

Except you don't have the bells.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. the rules say...

"turning down free booze is not allowed".

so... I think you're good. :)

[tcfrogs]

7. Thanks, viva

It was a weird moment. Can't turn down free booze, though.

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. Same kind of dumb ass reaction every time. It's like the middle

east is some kind of sports arena & the situation is all just a spectator event.

[Xipe Totec]

4. You cost the bar some dough

think of it that way.

[tcfrogs]

6. I didn't ask for it

it was just offered.

[dicknbush]

11. Intergity dictates that if you are against lies and fraud that bring us to war

and thus to the execution based on lies and fraud you should not have accepted the drink. I would not have accepted based on my belief that capital punishment is a criminal act.

[tcfrogs]

14. Meh...

I'm for capital punishment. Not exactly the consensus at DU, but in Saddam's case, I agree.

[Nutmegger]

8. Fucking disgusting.

I try to refrain from profanity but that is truly sick! I would have left, trying to hold back my puke.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sanskritwarrior]

15. hey I'm new here too

The President might be a lot of things, a coke head, a draft dodger, an imbecile, a failed leader, but how on earth is he a dictator?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sanskritwarrior]

23. No argument

on the innocent lives, but killing innocents does not make one a dictator, it makes one a barbarian.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sanskritwarrior]

31. Ok..

Look calling someone a dictator who isn't one is silly. call him a war monger, call him a butcher, call him an arsehole, call him anything you like that is correct. He is not a dictator. I had a similar discussion today at FireDogLake with someone who kept saying something similar. Being accurate helps us. Saying something that is demonstratively false is silly. But if you want to say that, I will not say another word about it.

[marshland]

35. Thank you for the correction.

I see what you are saying. I stand corrected. * is an evil bastard who deserves an equal fate as Saddam.

[EstimatedProphet]

66. He became a dictator when he defined what is acceptable to think

And I'm sure someone here will help me out with the exact quote...Bush talked about how it was unacceptable to think that what the 'terrorists' do could ever be compared to what we do. At that point (maybe others too) he tried to dictate how we should live our lives as good citizens. Therefore yes, he is a dictator.

[tavalon]

18. I wish there were only one

One was hanged today. One sleeps in Crawford, TX today.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. People Are Not Perfect. I Think People Deserve A Pass This Time.

It isn't often in life someone as vile as Saddam is gotten rid of. I'm basically 100% against the DP, but even I am not going to sympathize for a second at his demise.

This is a special case of an evil piece of shit getting justice. I think there are times that exceptions can be made for how people act and their reactions. Though on the surface it might appear distasteful or nauseating to see people celebrate the demise of another human being, I believe this to be one of those times an exception should be made for passing judgment on them. Many people, though even potentially conflicted, can't help but feeling some sense of joy when something that disgustingly evil is wiped off of the earth.

Normally, I'd agree with you that celebrating the death of another is disgusting. But I hope that you'll see in this special case, that maybe an exception should be made and you'll give them a pass.

And I hope you enjoyed the free booze. :)

[seabeyond]

36. i can see all your point in his vileness and how death may be warranted

though as i have posted jail for life is good enough for me. i can see people feeling justice served in his death. and i wouldnt fault a person for that. but.... celebration, joy at his death is no longer about saddams vileness, it becomes about the person celebrating. if a person merely felt a justice served in his death, a good ridance is enough. to celebrate is a whole other monster and then becomes about that person. their character. they are seperate events. i cant make them one

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

42. I Agree, Which Is Why I've Limited Most Of My Comments To Good Riddances And Rot In Hells. But I

still think that people in general should be given a pass on this one, who behave in other ways. I agree that portraying joy at the event might seem a bit too cold or disgusting, but like I said, people aren't perfect. Many people accurately perceive Saddam as one of the most vile beings they've ever known. It is not psychologically surprising to hear some celebrate his demise, when they may not have ever celebrated hearing the death of another ever, or may not ever again. I think this is a special circumstance that does not happen often (someone that evil being killed), so I think sometimes we can hold on passing judgment and grant them the exception in this case. This is one case that I do not agree with you that it speaks to their character as a whole, as I'm sure there are many people who may show joy at hearing of his demise, that under almost any other circumstances would not have been portraying such an attitude.

Ehh, to each their own. I'm just not going to judge anyone for their reactions to this. Some can only think of joy as a reaction when hearing about someone so evil having met his maker.

[seabeyond]

45. i will take your post to heart

i am off to bed. thank you

[renate]

59. I think a lot of the people rejoicing at Saddam's death...

... had lost loved ones to his regime, or had been lucky enough to merely live in terror during his rule.

I am most definitely not going to say that their joy at his demise is a reflection of who they are as human beings. "Good riddance" would NOT be enough to someone whose son or husband or brother had been endlessly tortured before dying, or to someone whose daughter or wife or sister had been repeatedly beaten and raped.

I admire your ability to separate the criminal and the criminal acts. Personally, I shed not one tear for that stain on humanity, and if he'd hurt somebody I loved, I wouldn't be able to separate myself from the satisfaction of seeing him dying in fear like he made so many people die. Once he passes sentence on somebody else, his life becomes forfeit to what their survivors want, IMO, and they seem to be pretty happy that he's gone. I hope that his death brings them some small satisfaction, since it's all they'll get.

[seabeyond]

67. i was referring to america and americans, not iraqi's. n/t

[ScottytheRadical]

39. Justice would have required a fair trial.

"Justice" doesn't involve the winning side of a conflict publicly executing all of their enemies. If that was justice, I'd consider the French Revolution an ideal model for proletarian uprising. Justice involves a war criminal being judged and held accountable by a neutral party, in this case probably an international party. Saddam Hussein should have been tried and sentenced by the International Criminal Court - not by former enemies of his regime. The entire trial was a sham. If Iraqi "democracy" is to gain any ground, they need to do it by following internationally-respected rules of law. Not by executing people Texas-style.

[Stephanie]

43. Welcome to DU.

Well said.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. Oh Please.

:eyes:

Hey, if you needed some explicit trial to convince you that Saddam was an evil brutal piece of shit that tortured, killed and abused countless numbers of Iraqi's, than I don't know what to tell ya.

What I do know, is that I, along with the majority of all the inhabitants of the Earth, know enough about his brutal evil history to forge an accurate enough opinion about his evil ass whether there was the poorest trial ever, greatest trial ever, or no trial at all.

He was an evil and brutal piece of shit dictator. He just received justice; PERIOD. It may not be the justice some of us believe in (Death Penalty), but it is still justice nonetheless.

And welcome to DU. :toast:

[fujiyama]

57. "Justice"

This was the appearance of justice.

The use of the death penalty itself as a punishment for Saddam bothers me little, but the way in which this trial was conducted makes a mockery of the word.

The other poster is correct. With no legitimate government and a court established by an occupying force in place, it would have been better to just have had this in an international tribunal.

Hell, IMO, it would have just been better to turn him over to Shiite and Kurdish mobs. Hell, that way I wouldn't be fed bullshit propaganda that he received a trial.

[calimary]

54. I'm thinking I like this post best. Man, is THAT ever true - "it isn't often

in life someone as vile as Saddam is gotten rid of." No kidding!

And I'm willing to give people a pass this time, too.

This is such a vile person that I'm not surprised there are such strong reactions to this one thing, and so many different views of it. Just now as I'm writing this, CNN is showing a full-on, fabric-waving, cheering, dancing, jumping party of a whole bunch of guys in Dearborn, Michigan. They're yelling and cheering and smiling ear-to-ear, great exuberance in the crowd behind every man who is interviewed by the reporter - Allan Chernoff (sp?). Their accents indicate they're Iraqis who've relocated here. They were almost beside themselves with joy. Mainly men. The reporter noted the few women on hand were actually inside cars nearby.

Hey, Saddam was no hero of mine, either. My trepidation (and it's pretty deep) I guess stems from a concern for what this will trigger, elsewhere. He was a Sunni, and we've already been speculating here that he'll become a martyr to other Sunnis, and that his death will only inflame things. I view this as a hugely troublesome day, myself, for that reason. What will this bring? I've seen enough of this shit over there to conclude that whatever it WILL bring isn't gonna be happy. Reporter in Baghdad, in the daylight, notes gunfire in the air - footage of dancing Shiites, too, but there's the added note that it's hardly uncommon to hear gunfire around there. I seriously doubt this is just gonna magically fix everything over there.

If anybody deserved the death penalty by virtue of track record, it would be Saddam, if you believe in such things. I waver. Somebody started a thread here earlier, wondering whether the people celebrating the execution would do likewise if this were Hitler back in the day. And then again, I've been asking myself how I'd feel if similar circumstances somehow befell dubya or cheney. I actually don't think I'd cheer, much as I despise those two warmongering, arrogant, vindictive, lying, greedy schmucks. I think I'd probably feel as conflicted and disquieted as I do now. Besides, there was another trial going on, and justice will never be served now, nor will the record be complete. Same thing for all the secrets about past dealings with reagan/bush I that Saddam has now taken to his grave. Then again, how would it serve to have him in prison - risks abounding that some of his people might try to break him out, and then imagine the vengeance and carnage.

Shit. If I were a drinker, I'd be wanting one of those free ones now.

Guess I should give myself one of those passes, too. Good post, OPERATIONMINDCRIME.

And to everybody new at weighing in here - Welcome to DU! I can't tear myself away from this place.

[sanskritwarrior]

34. I'm done for the night,

not looking for a brow beating. I personally feel some happiness that this particular monster is gone. If you feel different, that's great, I totally repsect your view. I would hope I would get the same.

[Stephanie]

38. But I don't respect your view in the least.

All views are not created equal. There is right and wrong, there are facts, there is morality and ethics. I have no obligation to respect your view when it is morally reprehensible. So no, you won't get any respect here. Nice try though.

[sanskritwarrior]

46. One final word

Great Stephanie of DU does not like me or my views. She denies I am a progressive. Great. I will respectfully say I don't care.

now good night madam.

[Stephanie]

48. No I don't.

I don't think you're sincere in the least.

[sanskritwarrior]

50. I am sincere

I find it insulting that you keep trying to goad me by going up to the disrespect line and then backing off. I don't know you, I assume you are a good person. No matter what you say to me I will not hate on you, nor show you disrespect. I had assumed I would receive the same. I was in error and I apologize that my views offend you maam.

[renate]

63. well, I certainly respect your view

Sheesh. If I'd seen what you'd seen, I'd be dancing in the streets to celebrate. As it is, I just can't work up any "awww..." about this.

Any opposition to the death penalty that I have is based solely on the fact that people are often convicted wrongly. If the evidence is incontrovertible, I think that any punishment should be left up to the victims' families, to give them even the tiniest amount of comfort--their loved one's killer owes them that much at least. Somehow I doubt that many of Hussein's victims' families are crying tonight.

[sanskritwarrior]

64. Totally support the view

that the DP system needs to be seriously examined to see if we have executed innocents and how do we stop it from happening again. The smallpox vaccine killed people yet we did not abandon it. I know I know smallpox versus the DP are apples and oranges.....It's late and I'm tired.

[HughMoran]

53. You may have to ignore her

I don't share your glee in Saddam's death, but I can understand your perspective based on what you have stated so far.

Don't let the absolutists get to you.

[ellisonz]

62. Welcome to DU!

:patriot:

[TexasLawyer]

40. There are lots of dumbos out there

who think that we went over there to Iraq to "get Saddam," that Saddam was on trial for 9/11, and that now that Saddam's gone the war is going to end.

[slackmaster]

47. DAMN, I must have left my bar too early

After nearly getting T-boned by an ambulance on the way there, driving through a gauntlet of LEOs doing DWI enforcement, the hostile woman who hassled me for letting her dog (who is not legally allowed to be in a bar) get out of the bar, and suffering fluctuating temperatures and a loud crowd of 20-somethings who were celebrating a couples' engagement, I have been at home an hour or two and didn't even know Saddam was dead.

Cool.

[tcfrogs]

52. Rough night

Sorry to hear that slackmaster.

[slackmaster]

65. A night of deep sleep healed most of the angst

Until I read the headline on this morning's newspaper: SADDAM HANGED

A reminder of the brutal, barbaric world we live in.

I made a decision last night while chatting with the bar owner - I will spend most of today tidying up outside and planting my crop of poppies for the spring of 2007.

And now, COFFEE!

:donut:

[fujiyama]

58. I view that as sort of bizarre

and it's very indicative of the propaganda we've been fed over the years regarding Saddam. It does make me slightly uncomfortable celebrating someone's death (it feels sort of barbaric cheering about a freakin hanging), but at least this would have made sense if say they were cheering Osama being hanged.

Now I'm not denying the crimes Saddam committed, but the extent to which people actually supposedly care about those atrocities he was responsible - color me a bit skeptical as to the average American's concern.

I'd be willing to bet the same bad owner also believes that Saddam was responsible for 9/11 or had a part to do with Al Qaeda. Because I'm sure he wouldn't care if some other random dictator was hanged for being responsible for thousands of deaths in his own country or region.

All that said, I would have taken some free booze too...