on the lost climbers and false outrage

[nadinbrzezinski]

folks I have been thinking hard about this one. Why is it that folks are SO ANGRY and actually disgusting over this relatively small news item that unfortunately will sell papers. Hell, when a kid went down the hole at Plano Texas the country was glued to the TEEVEE as well, granted we were not at wat but you get the picture. When some climbers were lost 30+ years ago, again the people were glued to the TV... and it did not start with the TEEVEE, there was a mining accident in Pennsylvania in the 1920s and everything that happened was transmitted over the wire to local radio stations across the country by mores code. I am sure I could find other examples... suffice it to say this is not the first time. So stop acting like it.

Now I see part of the outrage comes from THREE LOST CLIMBERS ON MT HOOD BUT THEY DON'T CARE FOR THREE DEAD TROOPS!

Ok, we have had an average of three dead troops every night for the last few months and with the exception of the News Hour where they read the names every night, NO NEWS networks has read the name since the war started, and boy were they outraged when Koppel read the names two years ago. I wonder how the local nut jobs react when Stacy Taylor reads the names for that month every first of the month. The point is, if it was not three climbers it would be the false war on Christmas, so get a damn grip on this ok.

But they should not have gone up there?

What part of the Mountain was open and this was an unexpected storm are people purposely missing?

But, but how much is this costing and they should pay for it!

If they had been somehow negligent, aka went in crossing barriers, you may have a point. In fact this is exactly the POV of my city when people decide to go over police barricades every winter and go swimming in the river in their cars. Ever since the city started billing people them stupid accidents have gone down... and truth be told, they don't even charge them the whole cost, just a tad more than usual.

But, but why are we doing this and putting OTHER LIVES at risk?

Because we humans tend to do that, and on a self serving calculating side, you cannot pay for this kind of winter mountain training for the military. So if you think they are involved in this SAR out of the goodness of their heart? The troops maybe, but the cold reality is, this is a chance for SAR training that you cannot write manuals for.

Oh and the volunteers, they want to be on the mountain because they want to be there. So stop your belly aching

The reality is that the outrage is coming because mountain climbing is perceived to be a rich man's game... folks I have news for you, in my years of rescue I paid for my own gear. I am far from rich. I still have in the closet oh about three thou, if not more, of gear... that I paid by buying it piecemeal, a carabiner here, a descender there... but I am far from rich. Would I do any mountain climbing any longer? No, why I am far from being in shape any longer, but I also know my limits. The point is, I don't know if these guys went down to the store, just like a kid I pulled off the cliffs, and bought their gear in-toto, or they bought it the same way I did, and you have no idea either.

It is also coming from the belief that if people engage in dangerous sports again they are rich. Folks American Football injures seriously far more people per year than mountain climbing, even proportionally, and I have not head any outrage over it. So stop your belly aching. If you think that this rescue is unjustified and CNN should cover the war... well we agree on the latter, they should cover the war, but this story also belongs in the newscast, granted not leading it, but it does. It helps to sell... and if you don't get it, until we change the nature of US News, and perhaps people's morbid curiosity, well forget it.

As to the climbers, this is quickly entering the terrain of body recovery... I am sure their families will be thrilled, NOT by that... but some will write round this parts, well they deserved it... when you've gone to tell a relative that their loved one ain't coming home, come back to me and tell me with a straight face, they deserved it.

[sallyseven]

1. Well said and god bless them.

I hope they find them alive.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. It seems to me the people complaining...

are just plain dumb. They don't know squat about mountain climbing.

"What part of the Mountain was open and this was an unexpected storm are people purposely missing?"

All of it. I don't think these people could even find Oregon on an unmarked map of the United States.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Granted, but it is far more than just not

being able to find Oregon on a Map... I think it comes down to class, aka social class.

I hate to say it, bur the arguments made here about there "rich climbers" and how they should have been ready and deserve no rescue, were made at Free Republic over katrina....the same arguments.

Just change social class.

By the way, the kid I pulled off that cliff, he cost me my rope, since I had to rappel dangerously fast just to get to him and clip him to my system since his rope was failing when we got on scene.

His dad... he owned a sports store, he replaced my rope, and gave us 500 feet of static lines and a bunch of equipment once he realized we bought it, from our own pockets.

[acmavm]

3. Doesn't matter why the did it or what it costs to try to find them.

As human beings we owe it to them to try to preserve their lives.

Is not the big thing that demonstrates our worth the fact that we do believe that we are our brother's keeper?

People have been looking for George Mallory and Andrew Irving for DECADES. (Mallory's body was found a few years back.) Expeditions have been funded and sent up Everest how many times for that purpose? And they're dead. Long dead.

These guys might be alive.

We owe it to them. And ourselves as human beings.

[mondo joe]

5. There is an element of class and race bias that sometimes rears its

ugly head on DU. It's no less nasty than when the same sort of thing happens on FR but with a reverse bias.

And the whole "rich" thing is dumb anyway.

I only ever personally knew one person who was a mountaineer. He was an older guy who lived in low-income housing. He was an alcoholic who got his life together after decades of drinking. He got a job as a janitor and somehow got involved in mountain climbing. He did it for a couple of years until the one day there was an accident, and he and another climber fell to their deaths.

This guy was the furthest thing from a rich dilettante.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Yep

and it is uggly, whether coming from Free Republic or DU

[sandnsea]

32. I didn't originally believe that

I just don't get people who think outdoor recreation is only for the rich, especially a bunch of liberal environmentalist 'treehuggers'. But after reading comments in some other blogs, apparently the rich, white man really is the target of the animosity. Weird.

[karlrschneider]

42. Of course. How have we all missed the obvious fact that mountains are

regularly climbed by indigent minorities?



:eyes:

[sandnsea]

46. Since Oklahoma has no mountains

I'd have to say you aren't an expert on the subject. When you live smack in the middle of mountains and forests and beaches, it's often the cheapest form of entertaining diversion around. Consequently, ANYBODY can find themselves lost and in need of rescue. We are not rich by any stretch, but my husband has managed to collect thousands of dollars of fishing gear over the years, and regularly goes deep sea fishing with friends. They're all knowledgeable, but at the same time they could all get into trouble at any point too. Should everybody just stop recreating so you won't be pissed off if they get hurt or lost? This so-called evacuation insurance people are talking about is laughable, $10,000 max for high risk activities, IF they're covered at all. And we're seriously talking about INSURANCE as a solution to anything on this board?? Gads.

[karlrschneider]

51. Oklahoma has plenty of mountains. Not 11,000 feet high but falling off

one that's 3000 ft. high will kill you just as dead. I've lived in Colorado and Florida and I'm no stranger to big mountains or beaches. And I never said people should avoid recreational activities - what I HAVE said is that if somebody's fixing to venture into dangerous territory they owe it to themselves and everybody else to utilize anything that's available to minimize the chance of
putting themselves and others in peril. Why is my suggestion so difficult to comprehend?

Would your hubby go out deep sea fishing without a radio, a life vest, flares, etc? Probably not, assuming he has a brain. Would he head off towards the Bahamas if a hurricane was in the forecast?

[sandnsea]

57. Climbed by 'indigent minorities'

That's what you said in your previous post, indicating your belief that only rich people go outdoors. So if you're pissed that your theorized rich people didn't buy MORE equipment, how can you be pissed that it wasn't 'indigent' people on the mountain? Would you have more sympathy if it were just some poor schmuck who decided he'd try to climb a mountain one day, and just didn't realize how hard it would be? What possible difference does it make whether experienced outdoorsmen get in trouble, or inexperienced adventurers who make a wrong turn? I'm sure these climbers did everything they thought reasonable to minimize their risk, nobody sets out to kill themself.

And by the way, on the actual day that storm hit, I had to do some pretty fancy maneuvering to convince my daughter not to drive 60 miles through heavy forest to Eugene. We get a lot of warnings about gale force winds on the coast, and most of the time it ends up being nothing. This one was different and it's another thing you don't really know unless you live here.

The one guy hurt himself somehow, could happen to anybody. We don't know how the others went missing yet. The weather hampered the rescue, but was really not pertinent to them getting in trouble to begin with. It's life. Shit happens.

[karlrschneider]

62. Well, as you put it so delicately, shit happens.

I often fly right smack over Mt. Harvard in Colorado. You would be amazed if you saw, as I do regularly, the hugh (sic) number of ghetto-dwelling black children happily cavorting on its summit.

Since you are obviously privy to those climbers' mindset, being "sure they did everything they thought reasonable...", what is your professional opinion as to why they neglected to spend $5 apiece for emergency locator beacons? Oh, I guess they just couldn't afford them...the airline fares ate up all their money.

[sandnsea]

73. Here

Educate yourself. They may have chosen some other safety method, and the ELB's are not $5 as you claim.

http://www.mountainsafety.org.nz/assets/images/radiocomms.pdf

Seriously, 'ghetto-dwelling black children' is racist in itself - as if all kids in inner cities are black or there isn't any possibility that black children from Denver would go climbing or that any other minority who had lived generations in Colorado wouldn't climb. It's just really ridiculous.

[karlrschneider]

80. This is TWO years old and from NEW ZEALAND for christs sake.

And you obviously have a badly broken sarcasm detector. Perhaps ...

no, fuck it. I'm just putting you on ignore. Buh bye.

[sandnsea]

83. rotflmao

Okay, Karl, whatever. ELB's have dropped in price from $300-$3000 to $5 in two years, or are only expensive in New Zealand. :crazy:

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Hmm since I bought all the gear for mountain rescue

I am rich as well... that is news to me... WOW... a carabiner here, a carabiner there... and after a while you have a full self contained kit... but again I am sure you think I bought all my gear in one sitting.

By the way, I was and still am so well to do I also spent close to 7K in Emergency Rescue Equipment.. again a piece here, a bandage there

And the only thing I bought in one sitting were my basic uniforms, after that I also owned at one point close to 3 K in fire gear, again bought piece meal.

Does that mean I am a millionaire?

For the record most of the people we rescued from the mountains also bought their gear like I did, a binner here, an ascender there

[Tellurian]

6. It should be mandatory climbers carry a LOCATER device..

for the sum of $5.00/a day, carrying this device would put an end to
the anguish suffered by searchers and families..

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. It should be, it could be,

these devices are new.

usually regulations like that are written in blood, like many procedures in rescue are written in blood

After this is over, you may suggest this to lawmakers, but it is NOT a requirement right now

[karlrschneider]

13. No, they aren't "new". They have been available for 20 years.

http://www.939arw.afrc.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123019595

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Again it should be, it could be

it is not. Things like that are enforced ONLY after a tragedy.

[karlrschneider]

My airplane has an equivalent device, an ELT (emergency locater transmitter)

It's required by federal law on most aircraft but even if it weren't I cannot imagine any pilot stupid enough to not have one. Mountain climbing is obviously more inherently risky than flying, yet these
semi-experienced flatland yahoos think nothing of barging up into the wilderness without taking a very easily obtained piece of insurance that costs about as much as a cup of Starbucks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. You want it to be required

work to make that a law.

As to the rest of your comments... sorry, will not respond to the obvious flamebait

[karlrschneider]

40. Nope, I don't have any desire to make it a law. I don't even like helmet laws

for motorcycles. People who fail to avail themselves of simple, effective and cheap preventive measures don't get much sympathy from me when their own hard-headed stupidity/bravado gets them into trouble.
I spent 3 days last year helping to search for a lost kid just across the lake - it's not Mt. Hood but it's an unpopulated wilderness area that is often near zero in winter. But obviously a different situation...a 5 year old wanderiing away from a camp is hardly equivalent to grown men setting out on what is clearly a risky endeavor.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Ok then I do have a different concept of what is

owed to people than you do... we can choose to disagree

[this_side_up]

16. The Mt Hood Mountain Locater units are not new.

They were designed and developed specifically for Mt Hood
after the 1986 disaster where a bunch of church leaders took
a bunch of kids up the mountain. 2 leaders and 7 kids died.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. It should hve, it could have

point is they are not required... perhaps they will, but TEHY ARE NOT REQUIRED RIGHT NOW... get it now?

So does that mean we should just abandon the search?

[this_side_up]

21. Your comment...it could be, it should be.. I took to

mean that the units are new. They are not new.

Insofar as abandoning the search, that's not my call. The
experienced people will make that decision. From what I've
been hearing, there is 0 chance they are alive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Even if the units are not new

it is truly a could have, should have

And yes this is probably a body recovery operation any longer...

But the point remains, what could have, should have is not going to help and it is part of the false outrage people feel

[this_side_up]

28. I don't have false outrage. I have

amazment at the arrogance people have toward the
environment - whether it be climbing or other outdoor
activities or trashing the environment in any manner.

The environment always wins/kills.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Most clmbers actually have quite a bit of

respect for the outdoors, as well as many avid outdorsmen.

The sierra club and other enivormmetal groups came out of the Outdoor community, read about it

Now people should know their limits and when to turn back, or just not go, but that is a whole different bag of tricks

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. I had a sailor friend who refused to buy an EPIRB

... and EPIRB is the device you describe. In event of a boat sinking, it floats and sends out a homing signal.

His reason was that if he was in such a severe storm that he sank, he didn't want anyone risking their necks looking for him in that same storm.

I think his logic was flawed, but he was a very experienced sailor and that was his reason.

[karlrschneider]

60. Interesting. I can see that if your sailor friend had no family or anyone

who cared about him (but you seem to prove that's a fallacy since you guys are friends)...perhaps
those who feel that way should have a way to add a codicil to a 'living will', stipulating that no
extraordinary measures are to be made in the event of their disappearance or imperilment.? It's not all that different from a prior request to eschew the typical "don't hook me up to a machine" request.
Hmmm.

[lumberjack_jeff]

75. Yup, "DNR" = Do not rescue.

Whatever floats your boat, I suppose.

[devilgrrl]

9. The US has become a nation of Randites - Ronald Reagan would be proud.

His revolution has gone full circle. Hope everyone is satisfied.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Yep, it is the me generation

and the I, and how do I benefit kind of thinking that is getting us into huge ammounts of trouble

[The Deacon]

11. The Whole "Rich Climber" Thing

Always makes me laugh. I know where it comes from & the people it refers to. They are a vanishingly small part of the climbing community (which I once was part of & hope to return to some day.)
Fact is, the mountain doesn't care whether you're rich or poor - you have to deal with it on its own terms. This is why there will always be climbers.
Mountains are dangerous places, even for the most experienced & best prepared climbers. There are people who consider it common humanity to go after those in trouble. They are the greater part of the search and rescue community (which I just joined & hope to become a useful member of.) Fact is, a human life has value whether it is in peril because of accident or stupidity. This is why there will always be rescuers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Just remember

know your limits since you can do no good if you hurt yourself... that said it is a wonderful calling, and calling is the right word

[karlrschneider]

14. The bad weather was not unexpected, it was very accurately forecasted

before they started to climb.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Yuo mean the worst storm in the Northwest that surprsied

everybody was well forecasted?

Accidents happen and opps happens, and the mountain was open

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. LOL

[karlrschneider]

24. Yes, it was. It's a matter of historical record. Why do so many people deny facts?

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Ok assumiing you are corect

the mountain was STILL OPEN, are you going to deny that fact too?

And while we are at it, should we stop al SAR becuase they exercised some poor judgement perhaps?

So should we deny any and all 9.11 responses as well?

Boggles the mind, truly

[karlrschneider]

34. The mountain is always "open." What, you think they put up a fence around

the whole damn thing when the weather's bad? Jeezus...
:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Have you ever done any climbing

if you had, you'd know that it is not a fence that is put on the bottom, but there are warnigns posted. But I am sure you knew that.

[karlrschneider]

37. Warnings? Yes, in some spots. The base of the mountain is

about 50 miles around. How many signs would be needed to cover it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Trail Heads... that works

but I am sure you knew that as well... after all those trail heads are the begining for all routes

Again I am sure you knew this

[karlrschneider]

41. Every trail head was invented or discovered by someone at some point.

There are an infinite number of starting points. I'm sure you knew that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. And pray tell me why would they use an unknown route?

please explain this one.

I know you blame them since they are white, they're "rich" in your perceptoon and the rest of it...

We can choose to disagree since obviously we have a very different sense of what is owned by us humans to each other.

[karlrschneider]

52. I don't know what they might have done, but obviously there are people

who WOULD deliberately use an 'unknown route', and regularly do so...THAT IS HOW ROUTES BECOME KNOWN!

Is that concept really too difficult for you to grasp? And I don't give a shit whether they're white, brown, pink, green, heliotrope or puce...they were fucking stupid. I'm NOT saying they -deserved- to die, but I'm not all that surprised or exercised about it either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. According to media reports

they took a known route

But you keep pounding on this because you still cannot grasp that shit happens

[karlrschneider]

70. I have pointed out that shit happens for 50 years. Nobody knows it better than I.

But a little foresight, planning and intelligence can reduce shit to an annoying fart. Annoyed is better than dead any day.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. And winter climbs have also happened for many years

[karlrschneider]

100. And winter climbers don't generally die from stupidity.

Did you have a point?

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Yeah that accidents still happen and that you are quite incapable

of feeling any compasion for your fellow human beings.

[karlrschneider]

110. That is a total fucking lie and I resent it.

Riddle me this, oh anonymous brave DUer: Would you risk your life to save Rush Limbaugh?

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Yes, it comes with the code

that any rescuer who is a rescue worker abides by.

Even Hitler

Mao,

Stalin

Does that answer your question?

Obviously since you are asking the qustion, you would not.

Then you tell me that you resent it ok

I will add that I have taken real risks that you will probably never understand... in fact every time the bell went off and we went out LIGHTS AND SIRENS.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. You know what, it is called personal safety

if you don't get it I can't help you there child

By the way, I COULD write anything I wanted on that profile.

Now you got your answers. you don't like them, so now you have resorted to personal attacks, yet you call a child

I told you what I would do if Rush Limbaugh presented to me in need of rescue and I could something about it, or medical emergency. He would get that care, regardless of who he is... the same quality of care that any street kid down in TJ got, or for god sakes some far more important or rather well connected people.

The point is, you judge people, you have throughout this, and you have NO CLUE of what you are talking about.

Some impressions, feel free to try to correct them

These are rich white men, why all the rescue? Read the OP... you may get it, it is called humanity

Well they didn't have this or that equipment, they deserve it... Don't wish any ill on people but it might be you in trouble some day, and others will say the same thing about you. No you silly, not on a mountain, but you can still get yourself in quite a bit of trouble.

So try to walk in somebody else's shoes for ten steps, it is called carnying and common humanity.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. See you later child

by the way did you check the links to the MEXICAN RED CROSS?

And did you find out just how out of your league you are

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. How am I a liar exactly

the fact that I refuse to post a profile comes from recommendations from retired US LAW ENFORCEMENT


So tell me, is that getting your goat?


Oh and I gave him plenty of links ot the Red Cross. You may want to know that this National Society also sent aide during katrina... but I don't expect you to know this.

[piedmont]

128. Not you, nadinbrzezinski.

I think when the subthread gets this long it does funny stuff, putting posts in order of appearence instead of making more subthreads. I've enjoyed your posts!

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. Oh I am sorry, you are right about that one

my apologies

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Why assume he's correct?

He's not.

The climbers were experts, and checked the latest weather forecast before leaving.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. I gave him the slight benefit of the doubt

I realize this, you realize this, but hey read the rest of the sub thread... manufactured outrage pure and simple. He has no clue abuot any mountaneering... mine was half mountain Search and Rescue, but I know enough to realize he has no clue

[lukasahero]

43. Do you have a link for that?

I'd like to see it.

[this_side_up]

25. the worst storm was the night of 12/14 - 15. These men

were disabled/dead sometime between Dec 9and 12.

See page 6 of The Oregonian timeline

Dec 7 they begin

Dec 8 Cooper Spur

Dec 9 leave James and head out. They made it 300 ft and
built another cave

Dec 10 Friends notify they are missing. James calls family.

Dec 11 phone ping @ 4:20 a.m. @10,300 ft. Rescue forced
back @ 8,500 ft

Dec 12 last ping @ 1 a.m. Rescue forced back @ 7,200 ft
Helo forced out @ 6K ft.

Dec 13 Weather keeps everyone off Hood

Dec 14 drones are launched and weather limits searchers to low
levels

Dec 15 storms

Dec 16 Forced back @ 10K ft

Dec 17 Find body

Besides whatever storms that come in, Mt Hood has its own
weather system. All year round.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Yes it does, all mountains do have their own weather system

it is at times eerie by the way.

But the problem is that people are having a false outrage... the mountain was open

[this_side_up]

30. the last ping....I read article that said

it was not James pinging. Said that it was the cell phone dying
that caused the ping.

I have no idea if this is how cell batteries/phones work.

[maddezmom]

18. it's hard enough to get coverage in the MSM

but most posts in LBN about troop deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan don't get replies, as well as Iraq and Afghan deaths. :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. You noticed that as well?

I was surprsied that I missed the mark yesterday of the nuber I expected... that means one more troop was still alive

[this_side_up]

33. Yes, we have become accustomed to deaths in the ME

whereas "the families are intensely religious" rich white folks
doing their thing on Hood is a good distraction for the peons.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. It is not Mt Houd, it would be the war on Christmas

it woudl be ANYTHING but the coverage of any war, or the real economic situation.

[onenote]

39. thanks...some people seem to lack historical perspective

For those of us who remember the Vietnam War, we also remember that while the media reported on "body counts", it did not obsess over casualties to the exclusion of other, arguably more frivolous stories. At the height of the Vietnam War, between 1967 and 1969, Americans were dying at a rate of over 1000/month -- that's over 30 per day. There were some months with over 2000 fatalities. While today, virtually every Iraq and Afghanistan war casualty from my local metro area gets a story written about him or her, that most definitely was not the case back during Vietnam.

The main difference is that we now have 24/7 cable & satellite news outlets and websites. That has an amplifying effect on certain types of stories -- particularly "human interest" stories or "scandal" stories or "sexy crime stories". Yes, its the tabloidization of news, but its not a sinister plot. There were tabloid (albeit paper versions) in the past too and they didn't cover wars etc. either.

[lapfog_1]

50. I'm always pissed off by stupidity...

As a former scuba diving instructor and DAN member, I always read the monthly news rag (no advertisements) "Undercurrent". The section I read religiously was a continuing column titled "Why divers die..." which would then recount almost every diving accident for that month from around the world. I would venture a guess that 90 percent of the time some sort of stupidity was involved. I started losing sympathy for those divers (and I followed through on dives where I was dive master or instructor by beaching anyone who exhibited a tendency to be stupid).

I am not a technical rock climber, but I have hiked to the peaks of 20 of Colorado's 50 some odd peaks over 12,000 feet. I tried my best to not be stupid then.

These guys were experts. They should have known better.

From the GORP guide to climbing Mt. Hood (for expert technical climbers)...


What To Take
*************

* UIAA-approved helmet
* Ice axe
* Crampons and extra strap
* 120-foot climbing rope
* Pack for extra clothing and food
* First aid kit
* One quart liquid (minimum)
* Mount Hood Locater Unit (MLU), available at local climbing shops and at the Mt. Hood Inn (off of Highway 26 in Government Camp)
* Topographic map, compass, and the knowledge of how to use them in a white out
* Avalanche Beacon (strongly recommended)
* Altimeter (recommended)


So there is something called a Mt. Hood Locater, and apparently widely available. These guys should have known better. Always respect the power of Mother Nature. Going without a MLU is like me diving without a pony tank and an octopus regulator and a trusted dive buddy. I just wouldn't do it. Neither should they.

It's easy to get sloppy and think that you've been there and done that and to have a certain attitude about the next trip. That's when you make a mistake and it kills you.

I'm sorry that the one guy is dead, I feel for his family. I think the others are likely dead too, and that's a shame. They were stupid. Not for climbing in winter, but for not taking even the most modest of required equipment with them.

The news coverage is because this is the "missing blond in Aruba" story of the moment. You'll notice that there ALWAYS is a "missing blond in Aruba" story all the time. It's meant to distract us from a whole lot of other stories that directly affect our lives... (inflation is at 20 percent a year! M3 numbers - government issued money supply - no longer reported! Iraq war is lost! Housing foreclosures are reaching all time highs! Global Warming signs are all around us and crop failures in US, Russia, Europe are not far in the future! Human Population Growth remains unchecked!)

These three climbers and a missing blond (or a Miss USA blond going into rehab) do NOT directly affect any of us. Which is why they bring us 24 hour non-stop coverage... because if they brought us the same kind of coverage of stories that DO affect us, we might just get pissed off enough to do something about it. And they DO NOT want that.

[sandnsea]

53. People do stupid things

That's the ENTIRE point to me. That is how adults almost ALWAYS get into trouble - stupidity. James Kim was stupid too, there is just no way you pass 3 warning signs when a snow storm is moving in, at 9:00 at night. There are those who say the Enron employees were stupid, there is just no way you invest your entire retirement into your own company. There are those who say that a teen-aged girl getting pregnant is stupid.

Granted there are people who face real obstacles through absolutely no fault of their own, disease, injury, retardation. No question they should never suffer in our country, although they most certainly do.

Still, the real measure of our society isn't just helping those who simply cannot help themselves, that's easy to do. Sacrificing for someone in need, without judgement or condescension, now that's a much tougher thing to do. Unless you're so arrogant as to believe you could never make a stupid decision and end up in trouble - which is the exact kind of arrogance that guarantees you will.

[lapfog_1]

61. I disagree about James Kim...

he was most likely mislead by ignorance rather that stupidity. He didn't know what he was getting into by taking a marked road through the forest to the coast. He was simply unaware of how dangerous it could be. It was then compounded by an act of negligence or vandalism when a gate that should have been closed was not, which allowed him to travel down the wrong fork in the road.

As for the Enron folks, some had no opportunity to move their money out, and many were simply greedy (they were getting great returns by leaving their money in Enron and forgetting the first rule of savings "never keep all of your eggs in one basket").

Teenage girls generally do not have the capacity to fully understand the risks, especially in our "no sex education - abstinence only" system where parents who should know better (from their own teenage years)fail their children and so does our school system.

Look, I'm not saying that we shouldn't look for these guys, and I did hear the cost isn't as large as many here expect (most searchers are volunteers). We should. But they were experienced mountain climbers and should have taken more precautions. They are much more at fault with their circumstance than that of the other examples you've given, and with much more at risk (Enron employees have more opportunities to make money).

[sandnsea]

68. They lived in Eugene

Yes, he most certainly knew which were good roads to the coast and which weren't. Beside the point of passing THREE warnings signs.

In any event, you missed the complete point as you attempt to set yourself up as God and evaluate who was stupid, who was ignorant, who were immature, who only lost money, etc etc.

Everybody does stupid things. That's the point. It does no good to sit in judgment, it only adds to the pain of the situation. Help, pray, or just shut up. Those are the only decent choices as far as I'm concerned.

[karlrschneider]

56. EXCELLENT post.

Some DUers lack the ability to distinguish exasperation at stupidity from actual misanthropy.
:-)

[sandnsea]

58. STUPID post

Written by someone whose own arrogant belief that it can't happen to him guarantees that it WILL happen to him. Lack of empathy, foresight and imagination - the hallmarks of the self-centered Republican. Anybody who doesn't believe they are capable of making any given stupid mistake that will cost them EVERYTHING - needs to wipe some of the shit out of their eyes and take a long hard look in the mirror.

[karlrschneider]

64. Millions of species no longer exist because of stupidity.

And when you heap aspersions on Republicans, you're doing it to those climbers. Does that make you a little dizzy?

[lapfog_1]

69. You are absolutely wrong.

Since I ALWAYS believe something will happen to me every time I do something even a little bit risky, I am much safer than those who do not. You MUST respect mother nature.

I think you object to me calling these guys stupid. Which is fine. Object all you want. They were stupid. BECAUSE they knew better. Their mistake was not ignorance, but a lack of respect for the environment they were about to enter. And they knew better, probably better than any of us.

Your ignorance showed when you compared these guys to the late Mr. Kim. The two situations couldn't be more diametrically opposed and yet have them both die of exposure in the mountains of Oregon.

I'm sorry for their families. I think we should search for them. But they were Criminally Stupid and likely all three paid for their stupidity with their lives. Anybody can have an accident or even a momentary loss of attention (and die in a car accident, you, me, anyone... I never claimed to be perfect). But these were experienced climbers entering a domain that they knew to be very dangerous (if it's not a bit dangerous, where is the the thrill?), and they did so without the proper equipment. That's stupid.

BTW, how many people have YOU personally saved when they got into trouble?

I have two that I've personally rescued from death.

Comes from spending a year as a dive instructor in the Caribbean, usually dealing with people that insist of being stupid (or ignorant which is more forgivable).

[sandnsea]

71. I'm not wrong

You said it yourself, people usual get in trouble because of they're stupid or ignorant. Since that's the case, why not accept it as part of being human. It is you know. Maybe the reason you don't is because you can't face the fact that it could happen to you too. Maybe that's also the reason you have to puff up your chest and gloat about saving people.

[lapfog_1]

76. Sigh.. not getting through to you.

Precisely because I think it can happen to me EVERY TIME I DIVE (even if it was to clean the bottom of the dive boat in the harbor in less than 15 feet of water) that I exhibit a total respect for the environment. That doesn't mean that I'm perfect and that I can't die while diving. Accidents can happen. Accidents WILL happen. If you dive/rock climb/parachute or walk across the street. It's what you do before hand that's important. The training, the equipment you take, the precautions. And above all, the willingness to simply not go if the conditions aren't right.

All of the precautions, all of the training, all of the experience can mean nothing, accidents will still happen, even fatalities. Like Steve Irwin. Pure accident. He was not being stupid or even careless. Doing something with a risk, yes, but not stupid. He engaged in riskier behavior than most, but with more care and training than most as well.

In the situation at Mt. Hood is a bit different. They didn't respect nature, they did not go climbing with the proper equipment. That's the difference.

If they went climbing and had all the equipment and fell into a crevasse, that would be a horrible tragedy but likely not a act of stupidity. With their Mt. Hood locater beacons on their bodies, the rescuers would have been able to pull their bodies out on the first day of rescue operations. A sad but unlikely accident.

But that's not what happened. They had some sort of accident (where one climber was injured), they built shelters for themselves to survive. Had they been found either before the huge winter storm or the day after (with their locaters activated), they most likely would have survived. But they neglected to take these widely available devices which are marked as required.

The only thing left is to try to learn from the mistakes of others. Not to stick your head in the sand and say "oh, well, mistakes happen even to the best trained people" or the corollary "This sport is too dangerous, people shouldn't do it".

[sandnsea]

78. You can't outsmart tragedy every time

Do you honestly believe you're so much smarter, stronger, wiser, than any of these other individuals? Do you honestly think all of those divers DIDN'T think they'd taken every precaution? Do you truly believe the climbers DIDN'T think they'd taken all necessary precaution?

Who the HELL do you think you are to set yourself apart from any other human who uses their best judgment, which may well be WAY beyond yours, and tragedy strikes anyway.

I am not the one who doesn't get it, YOU are. You can learn from every tragedy that there is, and still end up with the unknown striking, just like the Titanic actually. Everything the Captain knew about navigation and sailing and ice actually worked against him.

You just cannot berate and ridicule people with a snort and 'well they should have known better'. It's just plain wrong.

[sendero]

86. I believe he is..

.. and I agree with every word he said.

Fact is, what these guys did is tantamount to slogging back a few drinks and then getting behind the wheel. You'll probably get away with it, millions do every year, but someday if you keep doing dumb things your luck will run out.

[lapfog_1]

87. Uh, the evidence says otherwise.

As for the divers that died, all I did was read the reports. They are throughly investigated. And, yes, in the vast majority of cases, not only did the divers not take every precaution, often they were doing things for which they either had no training, didn't have the proper equipment, or were doing in conditions that shouldn't have allowed anyone to dive. The vast majority.

As for these three mountain climbers, I know they didn't take even the basic precautions. It's a fact already in evidence.

Much like 90 percent of diving "accidents"...like the one where two teenage boys went cave diving in New Mexico in the early eighties, sharing ONE scuba tank between them and taking no rope or line to find their way back to the surface opening, their bodies were found within 15 feet of the cave entrance, their single flashlight on the cave floor in 20 feet of water. Neither were certified divers, much less cave divers.

And I could go on... and on... like I said, nearly 90 percent of scuba fatalities were preventable. Not only preventable, but utterly preventable. That's not my judgment, but the judgment of the Divers Alert Network.

I'm not "setting myself apart". All I have been saying is that this was a very preventable situation. One that should have been prevented IF these experienced climbers had followed the basic recommendations of every organization that promotes mountain climbing including those that specifically promote climbing Mt. Hood.
How does saying this make me some sort of God? Because I'm saying what is the truth? Nor is it berating or ridiculing to make this simple statement. (Last time I checked, I wasn't "snorting" anything either).

I feel for these guys and their families (especially their families). It's a sad situation. I think they should continue to search for them (until the weather prevents it). I'm not at all concerned about the expense or whether I, as a taxpayer, should be made to pay. I'm fine with that. If I was a technical mountain climber and near Oregon, I would volunteer to help with the search (just as I volunteer to help local police departments do underwater searches in my area).

But they were stupid. Period. I fault them even more because they WERE experienced.

As anyone would if a mechanic were to not fix something on a jumbo jet before it's next flight, even after the problem had been identified and marked for repair. It's much the same thing. The mechanic had a duty to repair the part, the climbers had a duty to take all recommended equipment.

However it's not me that is sitting in judgment of these guys, nature is sitting in much harsher judgment than I could ever pass. All of us will die someday, it's the nature of life. However, for such premature deaths, it's their families that will pay the price of years and years of suffering.

[sandnsea]

90. No it doesn't

There isn't any evidence at all that suggests they didn't take the right precautions for a trip up and down the mountain, a training climb for Everest. They planned the trip for months. I don't know where you're getting the idea they didn't take precautions, it's flat untrue.

But again, if it makes you feel better to believe everybody else is stupid except you, that's your priviledge. Hope it pans out better for you than it did for Edward John Smith.

See ya.

[lapfog_1]

94. They didn't take Locater beacons

specific for the Mt. Hood region. All such beacons are registered and can be picked up in any number of locations at the base. That was a likely fatal mistake. The locater beacons are on all lists of "highly recommended" equipment lists prepared by both the forest service and ALL of the local Mt. Hood climbing organizations. They've been around for years and years. They are not expensive. Rental fees of something like $5.00 a day.

There is overwhelming evidence that they didn't take such equipment (evidenced by the fact they didn't rent any or register any, nor are the rescuers finding evidence of activation of same, even though we now KNOW that the climbers knew they were in trouble before they died or disappeared - snow caves, markings in the snow to indicate their presence to air searchers - so, yeah, we know they didn't have them.

[sandnsea]

117. Try again

"In the case of the three climbers on Mt. Hood, Wheeler said an MLU would not have helped during the severe weather because rescuers still could not reach the climbers’ location. “The MLU might have enabled them to locate the snow cave one day sooner,” said Wheeler."

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_121906_news_locator_units.26bbe60c.html

Further reading will explain that there are limitations to all technology, and again, we don't know exactly what they had, what might have broken, what might have gotten lost, etc.

[lapfog_1]

127. How is that a "try again"

Of course people are going to say "well, it might have helped but nothing is certain"... The FAMILIES are right there.

And there is no way that all three climbers would have lost or broken three locaters. Christ, the one dead guy CALLED his family from the summit (after he was hurt) on his freaking cell phone. So, somehow, magically, after this guy was hurt, he could call on his cell phone but NONE of the three could activate their locaters because those things were all broken or lost? Give me a freaking break.

After that, they dug the snow cave still just a few hundred FEET from the summit (and that's not a lot of land area) and the the locater has technical limitations!?? Do you live near any mountains? Do you know what people spend enormous amounts of money to put on top of mountains that are near cities? Freakin radio towers. They wouldn't do that if it was a bad location for a radio transmission, now would they?

From CNN's front page story:

James had called his family from the snow cave on December 10, explaining that his two climbing companions had left him to get help. The three had begun their trek two days earlier.


So, his cell phone was still working, and he could get a signal to at least one cell tower (but without getting at least three, you can't do a cell phone locate, all you can get is a direction and signal strength, a "cone" from the tower), unless the phone has GPS and it's turned on. But somehow his locater beacon can't reach it's towers (and I'm guessing since this is a locater for the express purpose of locating climbers on Mt. Hood, there a number of towers around)?

They didn't take them.

They were traveling light. Up and down quick. That was the plan.

Again, from the CNN story:

Hood River County Sheriff Joe Wampler said Tuesday that a camera was recovered along with James' body, and the pictures it contained were proving very valuable to investigators.

But the pictures also were cause for concern, he said. "After developing those pictures, looking what they had with them, I'm pretty concerned about how long somebody can last out there."

He said the climbers were "lightly equipped but well equipped."


You try again. And get some facts to go with it next time.

[sandnsea]

136. They did locate the pings

That's how they found the ice cave. Criminy. Maybe they knew that would be as beneficial as a locater, considering the locaters aren't activated unless someone is overdue. They found out the climbers were in trouble due to a cell phone call. Maybe that's why the locaters aren't used that much on Mt. Hood, the cell phones work just as well.

Honestly, people are just desperate to find any reason to harp on these guys. Up and down, that's what they planned, 12 hours. The one guy got hurt, made a cell phone call which was used to find him. The other two, I'm betting they got in trouble very quickly afterwards, and we'll find they were dead long before James was. These beacons have to be turned on to work, kind of hard to do if they're dead.

Besides, my point all along has not been that mistakes weren't made. Rather that's how people always get into trouble, by making mistakes and nobody is immune to that, not even you.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lapfog_1]

91. I refuse to believe that anyone here is a Moran, even if they

resort to the tactics of Morans. I hope we can all be civil and listen to others.

I wasn't trying to be God or to even ridicule these guys. I was simply observing that they failed to take some basic safety equipment which is recommended by any number of web sites I found when I googled Mt. Hood climbing, trying to understand more about what happened to them. That these were guys who, by all accounts, were expert climbers, should have known to take some basic safety gear with them. That they didn't was very troubling. I felt like they contributed to their tragic accident in much the same way a Formula 1 driver, driving at Indy or Le Mans, would be without a safety harness. A fundamental piece of safety gear that is, inexplicably, missing.

I think I would have no problem here for crying "Stupid" if a driver at Indy dies in a car accident NOT wearing the safety harness, but I'm pilloried (at least by one fellow DUer) here for saying "Stupid" for three experienced mountain climbers without their locater beacon. I fail to see difference between the situations.

[karlrschneider]

97. There isn't any difference. And in a community of almost 100,000 there has to be

a percentage of morons. DU has a few self-appointed 'perfect progressives' who are in a continual battle to be more holy than the others. They remind me of the middle-eastern types who march down the street flagellating themselves with stalks of wheat in lieu of actually doing something useful.

Most of that kind of crap is simply a way to appear more compassionate, more liberal, and more decent than everyone else. And since 99.99% of it is under the comfortable cloak of anonymity, it's real easy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. This is brilliant.

A scuba diver telling expert mountain climbers what is and isn't proper equipment.

What next? A spelunker telling an astronaut how to fix the space shuttle?

[lapfog_1]

89. No... if you go back and read things again.

I don't claim to have technical expertise in mountain climbing, however I have scaled 20 peaks over 12,000ft in Colorado (I lived there for 7 years). And even with all of that mountain hiking experience (the preparation of which is much the same as for technical rock climbers) I don't claim to know anything about rock or ice climbing.

However, I did enough research to find a list of recommended equipment that even the most amateur of climbers OR HIKERS for Mt. Hood. And these three guys didn't take a number of items from that list. Of most importance to them was a locater device. I think I see many others here in this flame thread (which I had no idea would be such a flame thread) that have said exactly what I said. They should have taken the locater beacons (as well as items they probably did take, like a compass and topo maps and as well as their ice climbing equipment).

I would have no problem if someone points out to me what equipment is required for a dive site or a mountain climb, so long as they are referencing published documents from local experts (which is what I was doing).

BTW, having worked for NASA for over 10 years, would you like me to chime in on the space shuttle?

And, yeah, many years ago, I was a spelunker as well, doing caving all over parts of Missouri. And I am a certified cave diver as well. So maybe I have all of your bases covered. At least probably more than you do.

[karlrschneider]

106. I can clearly see you know what you're talking about. Ever see Fitton's Cave

near Harrison, AR just south of the MO border? I and some friends did some of the early exploration and mapping down there. But that was a very long time ago (early 60s), I think it's been re-named and maybe opened up for commercial tourism since those days of yore. ;-)

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. No but that is because

I never did any caving

My training was as a medic, in confined space (rescue, not mountain) half mountain, some fire and auto extrication... oh and Hazmat... getting all that training was painful especially since I did on my own dime, worked for a volunteer group down in mexico... where the shootings came. It goes well beyond that

We had an incident when a couple gringo cavers got in trouble... I called the experts, I was way off my depth for that one. And yes we made some jokes, off colored jokes about gringos and their toys... but shoot we were trying to kill time.

[karlrschneider]

108. Uh, I was replying to lapfog_1. Are you perchance drinking tonight?

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. No but obviously you are

since you insist in insulting people

By the way, you just got my credentials in rescue

What are yours?

[karlrschneider]

114. I have personally rescued 48 people.

16 from drowning
11 from burning buildings
5 from choking
3 from crashed cars
3 from crashed aircraft and
10 from suiciding off high ledges.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. Really what agency?

or are you just the lucky ducky who happens to be there before the pros show up?

For the record, In ten years of rescue I did not keep count... there are some calls that are with me to this day... but most blurr together.

Oh agency, Mexican Red Cross in Tijuana...

[karlrschneider]

118. I made that shit up. Just like a lot of poseurs around here do.

Mexican Red Cross? Yeah, right...and I'm the king of Norway. What bullshit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. Yep Mexican red Cross

let me even give you some links

And I do hope your spanish is good

Lucky you found one in English

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/slenchek/slredcrossmexico.html

http://www.cruzrojamexicana.org/donacion_organos/index.php

http://www.cruzrojamexicana.org/socorrismo/index.php (Notice the Ambulance in the background)

http://www.cruzrojamexicana.org/capacitacion/index.php (This is the link to the national Emergency Medical Technitian school)

Oh I could go on.

Why not the Monterrey Delegation has more details on some of the other courses including the Emergency Medical Techntian Paramedic course

http://www.cruzrojamexicana.org/capacitacion/index.php

Oh and here is more

http://www.economia.gob.mx/work/normas/noms/kpronoman/p020ssa294.pdf

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. As a former rescue worker

I saw plenty of stupidty from the road to the desert, to the coastlines. I also got shot at several times while trying to get stupid people off the situations they managed to get themselves into.

Does that mean I did not answer the call just because shit they're stupid and should have, could have gotten more gear?

One thing I learned over the course of rescues were sevearal things

1.- Shit happens

2.- Even the best prepared and trained for can and do get in trouble

3.- Those who get annoyed at those who they consider stupid will get in trouble sooner or later, and when they do, they are the loudest to scream what the *(&&()() took us so long?

Hope you are never in number three, because if you are, lord I feel sorry for the rescue crew

[lapfog_1]

72. Having been the rescuer on more than one occasion...

I never said they shouldn't be rescued. If I was a technical climber and living near Mt. Hood, I would be there now looking for them. All I said was that they should have known better (being expert climbers), and that the situation is likely partly their fault (they were stupid to not take the proper equipment).

yes, shit happens.

Absolutely even the best trained can get into trouble. In fact, it's sometimes the very best trained that get into trouble simply because they do it so much that it's easy to make a mistake, become a little over confident.

I don't understand your comment about #3...

Having been trained as a rescue diver, I can assure you that I would never ever berate any rescue people (I've had some experience with those who having just been yanked out of a situation that could kill them, start yelling at me for having interrupted their dive).

Maybe because I was a dive instructor and have had experience with rescuing people who shouldn't have been certified, I have a certain amount of callous attitude about people doing stupid things and getting into trouble. I think that much like ER docs, you have to adopt that attitude or risk terminal depression.

That one of the climbers has died should become an object lesson for all climbers, else his death will have been in vain. Same is/was true of every scuba diver who died while having some fun in nature.

We must learn from the mistakes of others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Perhaps you have never found

the ever so popular expert who got lost in the desert and then screamed at us because it took us a little while to find his sorry ass.

I have.

As I said, you strike me as the type who would do what this gnetleman did.

The lesson is that perhaps just like helmet laws we should require equipment chekcs before people take off to the mountain for certain emergency equipment. Perhaps that's the lesson

That said, you are truly deluding yourself if you think we will not have another group of reseuers looking for another group of rescuees in the future

As to the ER Gallows humor, I happen to have it, I'm just not as dismissive as you seem to be

[lapfog_1]

113. That's an idiotic opinion to make based on what I've typed

in these postings.

I've already said I'm a trained rescue diver. I've BTDT when I was a dive instructor as well.

The only thing I've said here is that these three people were stupid (perhaps I should have used a more nuanced word here but I didn't). I also said they should have known better.

I didn't say that I was better than them or that I am perfect. Nor did I say that I would never be rescued myself.

I didn't make any suggestion that they not be rescued or even that they or their families be charged for the rescue.

The only other thing I've said is that there is an inordinate amount of time spent on this story by the cable newsies... and I gave my theory for that (missing blond in Aruba again).

Yeah, I have the whole cynical thing going on. Perhaps that makes me judgmental. I don't think overly so.

There is simply no way I would ever be rude (as was done to me when I rescued someone that almost died) should I need rescue. Actually I have something to back that up. I have had since birth a heart defect (don't tell the certifying dive organizations like PADI or NAUI), it has caused me to have numerous heart arrhythmias where my heart beats 300+ per minute. It was a serious condition, possibly fatal. I've had corrective surgery now so everything is "better" (but not perfect). And yet, not once did I walk into an ER with my heart racing to the point that my blood pressure was 60/40 (my heart never had time to fill blood between beats) where I demanded special treatment or anything. Mostly it was the nurses in the ER that went batshit crazy (slamming my ass into a wheelchair and then immediately onto a gurney and wham in goes the IV and not a saline drip but a torrent). I never forgot to tell each nurse and doctor that treated me a "hearty" thankyou (even when I didn't have insurance and I knew I'd personally have to pay an enormous bill, which I did, even though it took two years to pay). There are some things just worth paying for. And it's not their fault that insurance companies are the way they are or the health care system is the way it is, so why should I hold them at fault?

Anyway, you don't know me, and you shouldn't pass judgment on my personality.

You can say I'm stupid for any number of stupid things I've done, fortunately none of them fatal.

I'm stupid with money, for example... all my friends know this about me.
I'm stupid about women too. It's a common failing of the male of the species, and regrettably, I am no better and maybe worse than most.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. All I can tell is from your posts

and your posts were extremely dissmisive

Now the media is going batshit crazy with this for the same reason they went crazy with the girl in aruba and the mines in Pennsylvania back in the 1920s. IT SELLS... it is the same logic of people stopping at a car accident to ahem watch...

As to the ER... yep that is good triage.

[lapfog_1]

131. Dismissive?

No, I simply called them stupid.

Which they were. Insensitive, yeah, I'm an insensitive jerk. I got that way helping stupid people that refuse to listen to basic life saving instructions. Didn't stop me from risking my own life to save their stupid asses. Did allow me to end their diving with my dive operation and to have them sit on the boat for the rest of the afternoon. And to think they were stupid (OK, one person was just an ignorant innocent who relied on her boyfriend instead of herself for her own safety and ignorance I can forget and forgive).

Anyway, I think we are in agreement about the coverage. the JonBenet story of the moment. It's overwhelming, like it's the most important thing on the planet at the moment. And I have no idea how the media selects one over another (there have been a number of other stories in the same time frame that involve the same number of people and so on, but get nothing but local coverage or a mention at most on the 24/7 cable). Like the girl in Aruba. Why her? It's not like there aren't a hundred teenage girls, many of them pretty and white, that didn't run away from home or otherwise disappear at the same time as this girl... why did she warrant the attention? I hold fast in my belief that it has been mandated that they have at least one such overwhelming coverage story per week or per month, and that the mandate is to keep the subject off of some very real problems that we have to which there are no easy solutions or the solutions will be painful and, therefore, not talked about.

If they broadcast the car accident 24/7, how can we NOT watch?

They got me wasting 3 or 4 hours today writing about this incident. Media mission accomplished.

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. On a whole different matter how they choose the stories

While working in rescue I at times played Media information officer... there are things less painful such as root canals I suspect... when media critters are present watch your Ps and Qs, and it is almost like walking on damn eggshells.

But I got an insight as to how the stories are chosen. Given I was on a border town we got the media from both sides and what led news was a little different.

Aruba kid... 17 year old, Blondie, pretty face.. went missing, oh and she is... your paradigm of everybody's neighbor. Also in our current environment it helps to scare people of them dirty foreigners... (Yep I did get in the face of some local SD media personalities when they tried this a couple times)

This one... what more drama do you want than three men trapped on top of a mountain, the same reason why the Pennsylvania incident played so big in the 1920s... man versus nature.. or the Plano incident...

The car... it is good for leading the local news, especially if it is gruesome enough where we can play it on the TV but not so gruesome that it will make you return your dinner.

As to dismissive, as I said, that is the impression and you can blame the medium.

(Spelling and clarity)

[lapfog_1]

137. Probably right about the foreigner thing.

Never underestimate an appeal to racism and/or nationalism.

I lived for a while in Bonaire (part of the ABC islands along with Aruba), and I've never met a more educated class of people than the natives that lived there. Sure, they mostly held jobs in the tourism service industries, but almost everyone could speak 5 languages (English, Dutch, Spanish, Papiamento, and one "extra"). And most have been to college and have visited 3 Continents (Europe, North and South America). Doesn't speak about the missing girl of course, but it's surprising none the less.

About the medium... I've long said that the internet (newsgroups, email, now blogs) is a very efficient instrument of miscommunication. Things that would never (almost never) happen if we were all at some cocktail party (at least until a number of cocktails have been consumed). The written text is easily mis-interpreted both by the writer and the reader.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. Yep the internets can be an interesting place

I should add, as a PIO I also got to meet some interesting folks, and hear some interesting stories. At times there was some horse trading to keep a given media outlet silent until a situation was resolved. or the ever so popular leak the story to their competitor becuase they really annoyed us

[Mad_Dem_X]

54. A-MEN!!!!

:applause:

[eyepaddle]

59. I agree. eom

[AngryAmish]

65. I just think it was irresponsible to even attempt to climb the mountain

I think one of the guys on the mountain was married and had 3 young kids. Now, thanks to his desire for thrills they don't have a father.

There are many things that look like fun to me and are legal but I will not do them because of the danger. Motorcycles are fun but I won't ride them. I have obligations.

One's life is not to be thrown away for giggles when other people rely on you.

Controlling risk when one is married and a parent is an obligation of an adult. There are risks in every part of life (driving being the most risky thing most folks do) but seeking out danger is childish.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. So your tolerance for risk is lower than these guys

we get it.

That does not make it irresponsible...

I know we will agree to disagree, after all I took similar risks as a rescue worker, and for god sakes, my hubby left me more than once while going on deployment, you are telling me was irresponsible too?

[AngryAmish]

74. You were a rescue worker?

You should have mentioned that before.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

81. Are you a mountain climber?

No? Then how do you know they did anything irresponsible?

[AngryAmish]

92. Climbing Mt. Hood in December is irresponsible

Per se irresponsible for an adult. A needless risk when others depend upon you to feed and clothe them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. In yuor view it is

given that we have these climbs happen every year and we have accidents every ten years perhaps the mountain should be closed in the winter... that is a matter for discusion as a society

Yet I am not prepared to judge others for their entertainment choices... aparently you are

[piedmont]

104. Then I take it you don't leave your house except to go to work or shopping.

You don't go swimming, or hiking, or on vacation. These all carry risk, and are all unnecessary.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

122. Tell it to mountain climbers.

Hundreds if not thousands of which climb Mt. Hood in December.

[karlrschneider]

99. You don't have to be a chicken to recognize a rotten egg.

...

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. You know why I don't fill profiles on the web?

SAFETY... as in PERSONAL SAFETY... my brother and sister in law are retired cops as well as my husband's dad, who among other law enforcement services he worked for the FBI, anong others, one of the few multijurdictional Hostage Negotiators in the country.

They all have often mentioned NOT to post personal info on line... you try to figure this out, perhaps myspace and their problems will even give you a clue of why you do not post personal information

I have also been on DU for quite a bit and those who know of me on DU, obviously not you know exactly who I served with.

If you asked nicely I could even tell you...

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. If you read the OP

you would have found out

;-)

[GumboYaYa]

77. It is one of those things you can never understand unless you understand.

My wife made me promise no more difficult climbs when we got married. I am pretty much limited to boulder hoping these days.

Two weeks ago, I flew over the Rockies on my way to and from LA. From the window of my flight, I looked out at the mountains and longed to be in them climbing. It literally hurt to see them and not be able to climb them. If I see a photo of a peak, I am instantly drawn to want to climb it. It is an attraction that I can't explain or deny.

[sandnsea]

79. A teeny epiphany

Maybe it'll help. It's easy to give when you want to give, like when I just went shopping for an unknown 5 year old from the giving tree. Too much fun.

Sacrifice. That's what's hard. Giving when you don't want to. You're giving a great gift of peace of mind to your wife every single day, a great sacrifice. Now don't go turning it into a martyr syndrome or anything. :) But sacrifices are what makes a marriage last over the long run, big ones and little ones.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

88. Phillippe Petit:

"When I see three oranges I juggle, when I see two towers, I walk."

I think that lost in the moment is an understanding of altruism and artistry. The naysayers - those who castigate the climbers for different reasons, miss the essential mythical journey that has been present in every heroic endeavor, and which clearly motivates these climbers and so many others of every faith and color and socio-economic circumstance.

Tell me, what sort of criticism you would offer to Phillippe Petit, who walked a wire of 7/8" diameter stretched between the twin towers of the WTC. Is he immune from criticism only because he was successful? Did he not endanger the astonished onlookers on the streets below, and the Policemen who tried to make him stop dancing on that rope, the towers breathing and flexing their enormous bulk and birds equally astonished as the people below, flying arond him? He might have missed a critical detail and left a real mess for the coroner to clean up... but by the gods I love him because he had the brash courage to make the attempt.

Who among us has not dreamed of walking that wire, or of something equally daring? None, I daresay. I will bet my entire paycheck that the families of these men will unanimously agree that their loved ones died doing what they truly loved, and left a stirring legacy for their children.

Man does not live by bread alone.

[GumboYaYa]

140. Exactly right....

There is incredible beauty in the act of overcoming something.

[AngryAmish]

93. But as an adult you do not climb

because you have obligations and you made a vow. I get the thrill and desire. But one can't run off and do everything one wants to do just because you want to. That is childish.

[xchrom]

105. speak for your self -- your own life.

other partnerships do not arrange themselves according to your version.

[piedmont]

111. What a sad life you must lead, fearing the unnecessary risk. nt

[karlrschneider]

130. And -taking- the unnecessary risk is ...what, noble?

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. Karl if we as a species did not take risks

we would not be talking to each other over computers right now

Somebody had to take a risk on Darpa Net... and fortunately or unfortunately somebody else had to take a risk on opening Darpa to more than just the approved nodes...

We would not be driving cars (perhaps better but that is another question), but somebody did

Hell, if I go all the way back... we would still be on the Savannah's, chasing carrion, best case scenario, or long extinct.

Risk is one measure of progress.

Granted, some forms of risk have less benefits to the society in general, while others... Columbus launching from Los Palos in 1492, have historical consequences... but the point is... we take risks every day. Yes, even you do.

[lapfog_1]

134. Actually, back in the day, it was ARPA, before DARPA.

I was one of the original IMP programmers.

And it was called the ARPAnet. And it wasn't a big risk. The only risk was that it wouldn't be used enough to justify the expense, or that the uses would be deemed not worth the money. And given the amount of use and what it was used for in the very early days (past demo, but back when you could still map each and every computer on the newly named Internet)... well, I'm glad it was government funded because a corporation would have thrown it away. Much like Xerox did with almost everything invented at Xerox Parc (like the mouse you use and the very concept of a "window" on your computer screen, bit mapped at that).

Risk to let corporations make use of government resource aka the ARPAnet?

Thank Al Gore. He is the one that authored the bill (as a senator) to allow commercial traffic on the Internets (those collection of tubes). It was very controversial at the time (at least withing the government research institutes and universities that used it).

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. Thanks for teh correction

but I realize you got the point.

And you are right, corporations are too risk averse to try new stuff.

[piedmont]

139. Taking the unnecessary risk is part of life for most normal people.

Unless you stay at home and never go anywhere except work or to buy groceries, go to the doctor, etc., you take unnecessary risks all the time.