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What do you all think about term limits on SCOTUS?

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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:27 AM
Original message
What do you all think about term limits on SCOTUS?
Would this a viable point to make part of the Democratic platform?
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. absolutely - or at the very least, include a way to remove them
Perhaps through some sort of "vote of no-confidence".
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. I am all for term limits on the Supreme Court. The two new....
justices have the potential of serving for the next thirty or more years. That thought really makes me shudder.
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eyesroll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. I would support a long term -- 10-15 years, maybe.
Even a renewable term, so if we have a good justice, we can keep him/her.

More importantly, I'd support a change to require a supermajority of senators to confirm a SCOTUS judge, especially if the lifetime term remained.
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The Revolution Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Supermajority would be good
That might actually prevent extremists from getting on there in the first place. The only problem I see is that the a lot of people in the right-wing tend to view fairly moderate people (Ginsburg) as extremists.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
4. Lifetime appointments for liberals, 2 days for rightwing fucknuts.
Edited on Wed Feb-01-06 11:34 AM by HawkeyeX
That's how i want it.

Ok, maybe that's a bit harsh. I would do a judicial recall elections every 2 years to find out if they qualify to continue or they deserve to be kicked out.

Personally, I still like first choice. They can rule on a merry-go-round number of justices if they want to stay extreme.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
5. Only if it was a very long time...say 15/20 years - so may as well be life
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
6. I think it would be tough to make something like that....
...part of a political platform.

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Strawman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
7. We'd really be up shit's creek right now if that were in place
No thanks. This is exactly what the right wing wants.
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. Much as we hate what's going on with SCOTUS right now...
The point of lifetime appointments is to remove the judiciary from partisan politics, so the court doesn't swing right, left and sideways as the political winds shift in the country. The Constitution states that "The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behavior..."

I LOATHE The fact that Alito and Roberts are on the court, but I still support an independent judiciary.
I just hope the remaining Justices hang in there until a Democrat sits in the White House again.
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. why would it compromise their independence?
I don't know how I feel about this issue, so I'm asking an honest question. If Justices served one finite term, couldn't be reappointed, and couldn't be fired for ruling "incorrectly", why would they be less independent than they are now?

The process would be the same -- a Justice is nominated by the president, confirmed by the Senate and sits on the bench for x number of years. When the term is up, it happens again. It would be just like now, only it would happen more often and at regular intervals.

In fact, an argument could be made that the court would be more removed from politics, because Justices couldn't time their resignations to when a president of their party is in control. Sure, I wouldn't like that now, but the philosophical question of how things ought to be shouldn't depend on what I'd like the current outcome to be.


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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. It's not that a Single Justice is independent, it's that a Judiciary is.
The process would be the same, just more volatile.

Term limits are generally a Republican goal, and you're right, "the Philosophical question of how things ought to be shouldn't depend on what I'd like the current outcome to be." That's precisely my original point: you don't change a system because you don't like how it worked for you this one time. You take the long view.

If we'd already had term limits, Bush would probably have had a chance to completely overhaul the court during his eight years, who knows? Maybe it would have swung one way under Clinton, another way under Bush. When it comes to the highest court, I'm for stability, even if it doesn't favor me at the moment.

Moving away from the Judiciary to the Legislative Branch, I'm against term limits there, too. We already have Term Limits: they're called elections.
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. thanks for your reply
I favor stability as well. But, I'm undecided as to which method would be more stable. Long predictable terms might be less volatile. For whatever reason, they seem to retire in waves periodically, so that one president gets one appointment and another gets three.

I am inclined to think I would have set it up with long staggered terms in the first place. But now, I don't know if it should be changed. Like you, I don't agree with tinkering for tinkering's sake.
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Salviati Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Yeah... this isn't the way I would have designed it...
I think I'd have set it up with a long, staggered term as well... maybe set it up with terms of 18 years, so that a justice is replaced every two years. That way every presidental term gets two appointments, and there's none of this dead pool buisness of waiting for justices to die or decide they've had enough (or that I want the president in charge now to pick my sucessor, it seems like that's a bit introduction of partisanship into the whole process)
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. they should have asked us!
:D
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Calabresi wants them too!
Strangely enough. Not saying this is why we shouldn't have them, but here's the article. Perhaps this would have some bi-partisan appeal:

Justice for Life?
The case for Supreme Court term limits.

BY STEVEN G. CALABRESI AND JAMES LINDGREN
Sunday, April 10, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT

It has been almost 11 years since the last vacancy opened up on the Supreme Court. The current group of justices has served together for longer than any other group of nine justices in American history. What is more, the average tenure of justices has gotten a lot longer in the last 35 years. From 1789 until 1970, justices served an average of 14.9 years. Those who have stepped down since 1970, however, have served an average of 25.6 years. This means justices are now staying more than 10 years longer on average on the Supreme Court than they have done over the whole of American history.

The reason for this is not hard to find. Recently, the average age at time of appointment has been 53, which is the same as the average age of appointment over the rest of American history. The retirement age, however, has jumped from an average of 68 pre-1970 to 79 for justices retiring post-1970. Two of the current justices are in their 80s, two in their 70s, and four more between 65 and 69. Only one, Clarence Thomas, is younger than 65. The current Court is a gerontocracy--like the leadership cadre of the Chinese Communist Party.

Indeed, David Garrow's scholarship has shown that decrepitude has been a problem with the last 10 justices to retire, those who left the bench from 1971-94. By some accounts, half of the last 10 retirees have been too feeble or mentally incompetent to participate fully in deliberating and deciding cases--or even in some instances, to stay awake during the few mornings of oral arguments. While mental incompetence was rare in the first century on the Court, since 1898 it has become a regular occurrence for justices who serve more than 18 years; by one estimate about a third were mentally incompetent to serve before they finally retired.

With justices now staying 10 years longer than they have historically, vacancies are opening up a lot less often. Between 1789 and 1970 there was a vacancy on the Court once every 1.91 years. In the 34 years since the two appointments in 1971, there has been a vacancy on average only once every 3.75 years. The typical one-term president now gets to appoint only one instead of two justices, and with the recent 11-year drought of vacancies a two-term presidency could in theory go by without being able to make even a single Supreme Court appointment.

We think this is unacceptable. No powerful government institution in a modern democracy should go for 11 years without any democratic check on its membership. Nor should powerful officials hold office for an average of 25.6 years with some of them serving for 35 years or more. The rules allowing Supreme Court justices to do this are a relic of the 18th century and of pre-democratic times.

No other major country in the world allows the justices of its highest constitutional court to serve for life without a mandatory retirement age. England has a mandatory retirement age, and France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Austria all appoint their equivalents of our justices for a fixed term of years. In addition, none of the 50 states appoints its supreme court justices for life.

For these reasons, over the past few years we have been advocating a constitutional amendment that would limit the justices to an 18-year term with one seat opening up every two years. Tomorrow, a conference of scholars (most of whom are committed to this idea) will meet at Duke Law School to discuss various proposals for such an amendment. Our amendment would not apply to the currently sitting justices or to the current president and would go into effect when a new president takes office in 2009. In this respect, it would resemble the two-term limit on presidents that went into effect prospectively and which also restored a time-honored tradition of limited government service.

Some have suggested that Congress might have power to limit Supreme Court terms by passage of an ordinary statute. We disagree. The Constitution specifically contemplates a separate office of Supreme Court justices, and it logically implies that that particular office must be held for life. For 216 years, Americans have so understood the constitutional text. We think that practice has thus settled the idea that Supreme Court justices currently serve for life. To change that practice, a constitutional amendment is required.

The current system of life tenure leads to many abuses. Justices time their departures strategically to give presidents they like an appointment. Presidents appoint young candidates to the Court in place of 60-year-olds to maximize their impact on the Court. We believe that Senate confirmations are more bitter because all involved know that they are picking someone who may end up serving 35 years instead of 18, making the stakes much higher.

For 180 years through 1970, we had Supreme Court tenures of about 15 years, a practice that worked well. Now that this system has broken down, it is time to restore some sanity to the process of selecting our justices. A first step would be to institute reasonable term limits for the members of the Supreme Court.

Mr. Calabresi is the George C. Dix Professor of Constitutional Law, and Mr. Lindgren the Benjamin Mazur Research Professor, at Northwestern University. Their scholarly paper on the subject is available here.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006539
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. And that is all the more reason why they should be held to a higher
standard when it comes to political gifts and perks. The Scalia golf junket should be regarded as the epitome of bad behavior.
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. I totally agree!
And if we'd had a majority when this came to light, you might have seen hearings and some action.

As it stands... :shrug:
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
14. I think there should be term limits on SCOTUS, POTUS, & Congress.
Any position of power should have term limits.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I thought that's what elections were for.
If I were confident we had a fair election process and an informed electorate I'd say term limits were completely unnecessary. Now I just don't know.
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. And those positions of power (elections)are tainted by the money factor.
Elections are influenced by corporate alliances and party funding. The person with the largest purse wins the election. It doesn't seem to matter what the ideas are or the integrity of the politician. They can promise you the sun and moon but once they get into office, they are only bound to their financial benefactor. And as the last election proved, it's also the power and the connection those in power already weild. They organize swiftboat like attacks on any outsider trying to come in to their monopoly. And they control the media to further advance their agenda and propaganda.

And if that isn't enough. They are now just outright rigging elections. I don't have faith in a fair election process or in any gov't accountability. That's why I am ALL for term limits on all positions of power now--sad, as it may be.



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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. i don't know
where people have no legal redress, they turn to violence

if not term limits, maybe there needs to be easier ways to remove justices proven to take bribes, such as justices getting duck-hunting trips and jobs for wife and son in return for installing a man in the usa presidency
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
16. The Constitution is not broken
Would this a viable point to make part of the Democratic platform?

I think it would radicalize our image to the point where many would jump ship.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
19. NOT a good idea
say many of the justices come due for replacement during a right wing administration/congress. The court would swing violently to the right.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. Should happen, but won't.
Here's a timeline of all the justices. You can see that until fairly recently, most did not serve all that long. Lots resigned early, or were old when they became justices and died soon after being appointed.

This trend of getting younger and younger zealous judges is very dangerous. I doubt that the founders ever expected that withing a 4-8 yr period, the whole court could be "set" for 50 years. I think they envisioned it as a constantly changing body that changed over time, but would not be "rigged"



http://www.supremecourthistory.org/02_history/subs_timeline/02_a.html
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
22. I think every person, no matter what their job is,
should be periodically evaluated. They should know that what they do will be weighed, judged and they can be tossed from their position if they fail. I think the lifetime appointment is ridiculous. Can they ever be removed for insanity?!
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. They can be removed for "bad behavior", that being whatever the
House Of Representatives says it is. They are subject to impeachment by the House, and trial by the Senate. The 'bar' in this case doesn't rise to the level of "high crimes and misdemeanors"; however only one sitting SC Justice has ever been impeached, and it did not get through the Senate.

Insanity alone wouldn't do it, but "bad behavior" resulting from that insanity would.
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. How about torches and pitchforks?
I used to trust my country and my government. It's sad to know now that we're not just being paranoid and wearing the tin-foil hat.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
25. I vote nope!
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
28. I don't think so,
it was written into the Constitution for a reason.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
30. No.
They all get more sane as they age (i.e. they get more liberal).

Remember that Stephens was appointed by a Republican. Now he's the most liberal member of the court (and the oldest too). Keep them on there long enough and they become reasonable. Term limits would just give us fresh ideologues.

-Laelth
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