Just heard on CNN that 10th mountain Div. troops....

[catnhatnh]

...were headed to Mt. Hood Oregon in blizzard conditions to look for the three missing hiker/climbers...I'm not sure how to take this...so a couple of questions...
1.Is this a valid use of troops during a time of war?
2.I'm thinking if we are going this far with a search,should we not have started several days ago?
3.I heard the team was "light climbing" with minimal supplies-is this common and was the storm that caught them a freak thing?

These really are questions-the past few days I have seen references to the "mistakes" made by the Kims,troop fatigue,extreme sports, etc...

PS: Just because I'm dumb-how long have these people been on the mountain and what are their chances?

[madaboutharry]

1. This may be the last chance to find them.

I was listening to the radio this morning and it seems a storm front is expected tomorrow. They probably think if they don't find them today that the hikers will have no chance of surviving.

[tabasco]

2. Maybe the troops can get some training value out of the trip.

I'm certainly not opposed to it. I was in the division for about five years and this would have been a good deployment for us.

[wake.up.america]

3. Great idea! I hope they gain valuable training as they find those guys.

[dysfunctional press]

34. that was my first thought as well...

making a win-win out of a bad situation.

and- it's another reason why rescuees should generally NOT be charged for the rescue...each time the rescuers go out, they supposedly should get better and better at it.

[likesmountains 52]

41. Totally agree...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. ...

"1.Is this a valid use of troops during a time of war?"

Beats the hell out of them being in Iraq. This is something I can support the troops in.

"2.I'm thinking if we are going this far with a search,should we not have started several days ago?"

Probably. After the first two days it was just a local media, local law enforcement, local mountain rescue thing. Then somebody figured "hey, people lost in mountains in Oregon? That sounds like James Kim!" So then they turned it into a big Nancy Grace style media fiasco.

"3.I heard the team was "light climbing" with minimal supplies-is this common and was the storm that caught them a freak thing?"

Yeah, they went up for a one day climb. Two at most if the weather turned bad. The problem is, one of them got hurt and that completley fuckered everything up.

"PS: Just because I'm dumb-how long have these people been on the mountain and what are their chances?"

They've been up since last friday, it won't be until this weekend at the minimum that the weather will clear up enough to mount a proper rescue. There are precedent of people surviving in snow caves longer than a week, but I suspect all three are already dead.

[catnhatnh]

11. Thanks for the succinct yet comprehensive reply. N/T

[mike_c]

5. they've been on the mountain since last weekend and their chances...

...are not good now. All are experienced climbers. The storm that caught them isn't so much a freak as a monster-- winter storms are common but this week's has been especially harsh. Winter climbs are not uncommon-- conditions are often better than during summer.

The search has been going on since Monday, but searchers have been stymied by the weather and pushed back below 8000 feet repeatedly.

[Ganja Ninja]

17. I really don't understand what these guys were thinking.

The weather reports should have told them what the weather was going to be like. And who in their right mind goes hiking on a mountain like that at the elevation they went to in December? It's crazy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. It's a typical mountain climbing thing.

Expert mountain climbs often go up smaller peaks like Hood in winter. They planned to be back down before the weather turned bad, they weren't planning on one of them getting hurt. The climber could have gotten hurt any time of the year.

[Posteritatis]

23. Better than during summer? How's that work? (n/t)

[kenny blankenship]

25. Maybe summer snowmelt makes the rocks slick with mud and algae

and when you look up water falls in your face--not good if you climb with goggles or glasses. Someone who actually climbs could answer much better I'm sure.

[NeedleCast]

32. I'm no Expert but

I'd think that in winter, snow/ice conditions on the mountain would be more stable. I have some friends who are big outdoorsmen and they say that during the summer, snow/ice is much less stable and more prone to avalanche.

[mike_c]

38. yes, more stable, hard surface, easier to climb than crumbley scree...

eom

[Posteritatis]

40. I am become clued. Thanks! (n/t)

[doublethink]

6. Bizarre world .....

First thing that comes to my mind is 'Katrina' .... where was the military then? Rescue anyone? This response has NOTHING to do with my personally wanting the well being of those stranded out in that snow to be rescued. And yes whatever it takes, I would use the Military too. Peace.

[tabasco]

9. I was thinking the same thing too.

When I was in 10th Mouintain we were sent to help out after Hurricane Andrew. The non-response to Katrina was baffling to me.

[doublethink]

12. I really felt bad about saying it in this thread for some reason?

But felt I had to. Prayers for those lost on that mountain and hope all turns out well for them. Peace.

[sui generis]

7. well it's an opportunity to practice their R&R skills

(rescue/recovery), but it would certainly NOT be a valid use on a regular basis.

If I'm not mistaken, Mt. Hood (and other) rescuees are charged the cost of their rescue, if they survive.

At this point in sub freezing without liquid water and light supplies they're dead. Most climbing jackets are rated to around -40F (and they lie) but not to sleep in for several days, and then there is the integrity of whatever else they were wearing at the time. They would need to be able to keep or make liquid water, to not accumulate sweat (ironically) and to not have any breaches in their core clothing, and to have adequate coverage for feet, hands, head and face, plus shelter and minimal injuries if any. It doesn't seem likely that all those factors lined up for them at this point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. This is a valuable training exercise

this is how the military takes it any time they get involved in civilian rescue and yes, it is a valid use of troops in wartime

[michaz]

10. These troops are great

They are located about an hour from me. They know all about blizzard conditions, believe me. Here is hoping that they can be of some assistance to these men. Time is going to be running out for them if something can't be done soon.

[RethugAssKicker]

13. Must be a blonde girl in the group...

[nashville_brook]

29. eh, there weren't any "blonde girls" in the Kim family...

[madinmaryland]

14. Who pays for this?

Seems these three men took unneccessary risks, and now money which could be used to support the national park system is now being spent rescueing three men who made a poor choice.

[NeedleCast]

33. People Make Poor Choices All the Time...

...doesn't mean they should be left for dead. Yeesh. If the world operated under that set of rules, not many of us would live past our early teens.

[LanternWaste]

36. I suppose the answer you're looking for is

I suppose the answer you're looking for is "we do". But I would seriously doubt the ethics of anyone who objects to the use of tax money to, ummm... save lives.


:shrug:

[tinfoilinfor2005]

15. If my son was on that mountain, I'd pray for anyone to go get him.

Probably their moms feel the same way.

[Rex]

16. Former 10th mountain trooper here.

10th mountain gets trained in special mountain warfare survival. I think they are highly qualified to find these people in these conditions. That is why they were picked IMO.

[Captain Hilts]

27. Friend of mine fought with them in WWII...

and got pulled out of the Battle of the Bulge to compete in an inter-service ski competition in the Italian Alps.

No kidding!

[Rex]

30. Wow.

That must have been weird!

I learned to hate snow at Fr. Drum. :)

[kenny blankenship]

18. I don't see what's objectionable about using army troops to *save* lives

so much better than what their originally intended purpose is. I don't see the point of worrying about the rules for the sake of rules when lives can be saved. The rules forbid use of the regular military as a police force--or rather the rules used to prohibit that--rescue missions wouldn't violate posse comitatus law in any case.

A mission of finding people in blizzard conditions has very low chances of success it seems to me, as long as the blizzard continues and the lost people weren't outfitted to survive it on their own, but I don't know what the special resources of that army outfit. Maybe they have IR sensors that still work well during heavy snowfall. I expect that the soldiers won't be at risk themselves because of their training and equipment, communications, etc.
You can get some update on current conditions on Mt. Hood from the website of the Timberline Lodge. It's where the "master" exterior shots of the Overlook Hotel in Stanley Kubrick's The Shining were filmed.
Right now at the Timberline's site weather reports and webcams show heavy fog.Temperature isn't that low at the lodge, in fact they're reporting rain. But the conditions the climbers are experiencing could be a great deal worse if they are higher up than the 6000 ft level where the lodge is situated.

[hedgehog]

20. There are troops deployed from Ft. Drum 10th Mountain division in Iraq.

We hear about one or two get killed on a regular basis here in the Syracuse area. I'd rather see them doing mountain rescues even if the people they are rescuing got too cocky.

[shadowknows69]

35. Hey hedgehog!!

Watertown NY here.

[hedgehog]

37. I may have made a mistake - Afghanistan or Iraq Or afghanistan and

Iraq? Either way, Mt Hood looks better.

[catnhatnh]

21. On the cost of rescuing....

...first of all,if charging them is a given-then I am sure that the families would gladly pay it-let's keep that in mind. Here in NH when we rescue people we have the option to charge to rescue them,based on whether or not the exercised "normal" precautions...light climbing in mountain gear with a cell phone and having checked for weather reports would be no problem-4 frat boys in spring jackets carrying a case of beer might.The point being, I guess, that you rescue any time you can and then sort it out-which I kinda believe may be OK...

[nashville_brook]

28. it's called "humanity" and it's more than "okay"

:)

[Posteritatis]

22. S&R a valid use

I think the only explicit prohibition against use of troops in civilian activities is that they can't enforce the law outside of their bases. Something like this would certainly be fine.

US Air Force, Navy and Coast guard personnel assist the Canadian Forces in search-and-rescue operations in the Atlantic (and probably the Pacific, but I'm not in BC and don't get their local news) all the time.

[catnhatnh]

24. I probably missused the word valid...

...I'm not sure of the proper words except the use seems at best ironic or at worst cynical...

[Captain Hilts]

26. You pay them no matter what. It's a good drill for them. good idea. nt

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

31. Question 2

2.I'm thinking if we are going this far with a search,should we not have started several days ago?

This is the "New Orleans Relief" question that will dog the troops if the climbers don't make it. When did they know about the climbers, what delayed the involvement, etc.

I'd bet some troops have been bugging their leadership since day one to get them onto that mountain.

It just takes time to get approval from Oregon, from DOD, and then to arrange logistics, transportation, coordinate communication, etc.

[musiclawyer]

39. Does the United States need an army mountain division?

Well, yeah actually. Finding terrorists hiding uphill. (Interpol doesn't train people for that); rescuing brothers and sisters who've crash landed up high; and probably one day fighting somewhere in Russia or Kazakstan etc , either as an allie or foe. Even if it's 100 years from now, someone better have the institutional expertise to hand down.