Eric Rudolph is GOING crazy.

[Jamastiene]

Or so he says. Good. I say the world's smallest :nopity: plays on, Rudolph. Deal with it.

Here is a link to an article about it that also cites him mocking his victims:
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/16211972.htm?source=rss&channel=charlotte_news


Eric Rudolph says prison designed to inflict 'misery and pain'
by The Associated Press
published December 11, 2006 8:33 am

FLORENCE, COLO. – Olympic bomber Eric Rudolph laments in a series of letters to a newspaper that the maximum-security federal prison where he is spending the rest of his life is designed to drive him insane.

"It is a closed-off world designed to isolate inmates from social and environmental stimuli, with the ultimate purpose of causing mental illness and chronic physical conditions such as diabetes, heart disease and arthritis," he wrote in one letter to The Gazette of Colorado Springs.

<snip>

Prison is supposed to be uncomfortable for heinous, murderous right wing bombers. Maybe, in time, he'll start to realize how miserable he made the public feel with his bombings.

I, for one, am glad he is suffering, especially considering the fact that he hasn't repented of his crimes or acknowledged that he did something mean and wrong.

You take?
Discuss.

:popcorn:

[Lex]

1. Another freeper-type who needs the Waaaaaah-mbulance called.

nt

[Jamastiene]

21. They talk about doing the crime and serving the time until

they actually have to do the serving the time part, don't they?

[zreosumgame]

240. personally while I think Eric is the worst scum

nevertheless I do not think we should be torturing ANY prisoner, not Eric, not the kid from down the block who had his teeth knocked out so his cellmate could skull-fuck him for smoking a joint. None.

[rurallib]

2. Maybe he can get a transfer to Gitmo or Abu-Gharib?

DrugRush always says those are vacation spots. Some one should help this guy with a petition.

[Jamastiene]

22. Hmm, he might like that too much.

He'd be with mad bombers like himself then. If that bunch ever teams up, we are in big huge trouble.

[arewenotdemo]

63. He already is.

The 600-acre Federal Correctional Complex, which was completed in 1994 on the outskirts of town, is a virtual theme park of penal experiences, ranging from a minimum-security camp for inside-traders and small-time pot dealers to the concrete fortress that was built to be the most secure prison in the country: the Administrative Maximum U.S. Penitentiary, or ADX for short. The inmates in ADX Florence include drug kingpins, gang leaders, hit men, snipers and, lately, more and more, international terrorists, including al-Qaeda shoe bomber Richard Reid; mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing Ramzi Yousef and at least seven of his accomplices; and four men convicted of involvement in the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa. There are American terrorists too. Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, spent time there before being transferred to Indiana, where he was executed in 2001. His accomplice, Terry Nichols, is still at ADX, as is Theodore Kaczynski, the Unabomber. The common thread running through the crimes committed by these men accounts for the nickname given to the highest-security section of the prison: Bombers Row.

http://205.188.238.109/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1555145,00.html

[northzax]

90. bet they have a hell of a poker game going, huh?

Ted Kaczynski, Terry Nichols and Eric Rudolph sitting around shooting the breeze? that would be a reality show worth watching.

[MonkeyFunk]

95. LOL...

that's hysterical.

Except that they NEVER got to see each other. They have NO human contact.

What a great reality show! We could watch a fellow human sit in a blank cell for a week, a momth, a year, a lifetime - and laugh at them as they go totally insane.

And let's make sure we don't only do it for the famous killers. Let's make sure we watch the heroin addict who defended himself in the shower. Let's make sure we laugh at the mental demise of the pot dealer who was wrongly accused of getting into a scuffle with a guard.

Yeah, it's a laff-riot.

[northzax]

184. not quite true, of course

in fact, Florence has a program to 'resocialize' inmates to reenter the general population. Since many of them, frankly, are never going to reenter the general population, socialization isn't all that important. How would you suggest the prison protect the security of, say, Richard Reid, in a general population? Remember what happened to Jeffrey Dahmer in GP? isn't that just as cruel, to expose a target to a captive population?

[NYCGirl]

3. GOING crazy? You can't go somewhere if you're already there. NT

[Jamastiene]

23. Yep.

:eyes: :crazy:

[MonkeyFunk]

4. He's an evil man

but he happens to right. Maximum-security lock-up *IS* designed to make people insane.

Some of these people will get out of prison one day, and we make them crazy at our own peril.

[Jamastiene]

7. I certainly hope he never gets out considering he is still

laughing at his victims' expense. He's in maximum security for a reason, you know.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. I hope he never gets out

too.

But the point remains that maximum-security lockup for any length of time will drive ANYONE insane, and not all people in such lockup are lifers.

A drug offender who gets into a fight could end up in there for a year.

If our goal is to deliberately drive people insane, then we should just say so and move forward with it. But we have to be prepared for the consequences of doing so.

[Jamastiene]

16. Drug users shouldn't be in maximum security, IMHO.

Maximum security should be for the truly evil types like Rudolph. And yes, he should have to do some soul searching. Solitary isn't all bad. I spent years of it, not in prison, but because of red state problems. It does make you do some soul searching. It makes you think. He needs to crack and realize he did something really horrible to those people.

Drug abuse is a medical condition that should be treated not punished. When will this country ever wake up to that fact? Or maybe, that's just my view on that topic. They definitely should NOT be in a maximum security prison in any case that I can think of.

Edited: Oops, typo, sorry.

[MonkeyFunk]

18. My point, though

is that ANYBODY in prison can end up in Supermax, often through circumstances beyond their control.

So we should think carefully about supporting this form of torture at all, because not everybody who's subjected to it will be somebody you think "deserves" it.

If people here want Rumsfeld charged at the Hague for supporting torture, they have no logical right to support Supermax - it's just a slower form of torture.

[Jamastiene]

25. They should change that then.

It should be for bad bad ones who hurt people, not simply someone who has a bad habit.

Other than the solitary confinement, what's bad about those types of prisons? I'm curious now that you talk about it.

[MonkeyFunk]

32. I think

it's cruel and unusual, even for the very worst.

No human contact. No natural light. No sensory stimulation. Just sit in a tiny, white room for years at a time.

Once a week you get tightly cuffed and taken to a shower. Maybe an hour in a dog run by yourself to walk in a small circle.

The door is solid - you can't look out. The walls are soundproofed. No windows. Just a bed, usually made of concrete, and a toilet and sink.

Most of us would start having severe panic attacks after one day. Now imagine doing it for the rest of your natural life.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. Political prisoners have been put in SuperMax conditions, too

Some people think they're really bad.

Where does it end?

SuperMax confinement is torture. The authorities know it, the inmates know it (That's why being put in solitary is a punishment for people who already are in prison), and everyone except the gleeful vengeful types on DU knows it.

None of you would keep a DOG in those conditions, but IT would go mad.

[northzax]

91. everyone at Florence is a lifer

you don't clock time in a federal supermax if you are getting out anytime soon. You actually have to work at getting sent there, your hypothetical drug user would have not only had to get into a fight, but kill a couple of people in the process.

[Liberal Veteran]

5. He should pack light....it's a short trip.

I thought the guy was already a nutjob.

[Jamastiene]

13. Army of God, my ass.

That's what he claimed to be a part of when he blew those people up. There are a bunch of churches and people in the mountains of NC who helped him hide out until he was finally captured. I live amidst some of the most twisted people who talk about God as if God is a hatemonger just like them. Ugh. You know what I mean?

[Jamastiene]

26. ...and then some.

You are right. He's fighting some inner small voice of sanity that tells him to stop mocking his victims, IMHO. That part feels like insanity to him.

[Ediacara]

6. What the fuck did he expect?

It's PRISON!

[Jamastiene]

27. Like Paula Poundstone said,

it should be a little umcomfortable and bad.

[Synnical]

8. Bad Link

Further more, he's correct. Super Max prisons would drive anyone "mad", not saying he wasn't mentally ill to begin with!

[Jamastiene]

19. Sorry about the link.

That article disappeared and now I cannot find it. That was quick. He might just be a meanass too. He may not be mentally ill. Then again, he may just be criminally insane. Who knows? With that Christian Identity crap, it's hard to tell. They are a strange bunch.

[Drops_not_Dope]

33. Link

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/16211972.htm?source=rss&channel=charlotte_news

[UTUSN]

10. Wha? The prison guards AREN'T hugging and kissing him? n/t

[Ken Burch]

In prison, wouldn't it be worse if they WERE hugging and kissing him?

n/t

[UTUSN]

24. The implication in the story is that HE thought he would have it easy n/t

[Ken Burch]

58. Well yeah.

And I was trying to make a joke about the worst thing that could happen in prison, especially to a guy like him.

[Jamastiene]

30. They probably can't.

That certain Christian Identity bunch are extremely homophobic, so he probably won't let them.

[Little Wing]

11. Say what you want, but life in a Supermax prison is a form of torture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermax

Read up

[MonkeyFunk]

14. Thank you

LittleWing.

I know that people just love to show how "tough on crime" they are by supporting the most heinous punishments, but a civilized society finds better ways to deal with people like this.

Years of no human contact or sensory stimulation IS torture.

[LTR]

107. U.S. prisons are pretty tame compared to many other countries

If you get the chance, read the book "Catch Me If You Can". Many are probably familiar with the backstory of a teenage con artist (it was made into a movie by Spielberg). While the movie is decent, the book blows it away, and it describes in detail the horrendous conditions of French prisons. Imagine sleeping in solitary confinement in cold, damp darkness, in your own excrement.

Prison sentences there tend to be short, but they certainly seem like a lifetime. And it turned around Frank Abignale. He cites this horrific experience as a major key of turning his life around. Today, he's one of the top security specialists in the country, often working with law enforcement officials and corporations on issues like fraud and cybercrime. He has more or less disowned his teenage life of crime.

The conditions at Supermax sound pretty tame compared with ones in France. And while I don't believe POW's should be in there, I have no problem with it being used to house domestic terrorists like Nichols, Kaszcinski, Rudolph and the WTC bombers. They can rot for all I care. Maybe they can reflect on the personal prisons they put their victims' families in. Hopefully, the thought of a life sentence at a place like Supermax will make some reconsider the pain and horror they are about to inflict.

As for Eric Rudolph, he can go fuck himself.

[MonkeyFunk]

110. That was 37 years ago

and a 6-month sentence.

There was a time when liberals fought for prison-reform. They believed in rehabilitation, treatment, education, and trying to address the root-cause of crime.

Now it's a pissing match with the right-wing to see who can inflict the most damage on the convicted. The Rightists have clearly won this battle.

[RethugAssKicker]

129. This is not a civilized society!!!

[MonkeyFunk]

133. And this thread proves it.

[annabanana]

15. yup. . . . . .n/t

[tkmorris]

20. Agreed

These sorts of prisons are not for detaining prisoners, they are to exact vengeance on the inhabitants. I don't think this sort of thing has any place in our justice system at all.

[jobycom]

28. Agreed. nt

[Synnical]

29. Ditto that as I posted in Reply #8

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. Thank you for injecting some sense into this "I'm a bigger bruiser against

crime than thou art" talk.

The Supermax prison is an updated version of the original penitentiaries, where prisoners were supposed to become "penitent" by having nothing to do all day but think about their crimes. That's why they were kept in solitary with nothing to do and were prevented from seeing anyone else on the rare occasions when they were let out of their cells.

Eventually it was abandoned, because it literally drove prisoners mad. Stark raving mad.

Those of you who are gloating about Rudolph's plight come off as a bunch of sadists. We're supposed to be better than the criminals.

[me b zola]

66. I agree

Our prison system is amoral & inhumane. I don't give a flying crap how about how much a particular inmate may disgust me, they should not be physically or psychologically abused.

When I hear a winger say that Liberals want to coddle terrorists because we demand humane treatment and the rule of law applied to their detention I tell them it is not about the "terrorists", it is about who we are. Same with Rudolph. I will not condone the mistreatment of prisoners no matter who they are.

[piedmont]

45. yep. nt

[dysfunctional press]

47. agree 110%. they are a shameful thing in a supposedly civilized nation.

nt

[Book Lover]

54. Yes, it is

Thank you for posting the link.

[OzarkDem]

239. It doesn't sound too bad

from the OP linked Time article:

"Each 7- or 8-ft. by 12-ft. space contains a molded concrete bunk, stool and desk; a steel shower, sink and toilet, and a small black-and-white TV encased in Plexiglas to prevent tampering. At one end of the cell is a solid steel door, and a small vestibule--for the use of guards when they enter--separated from the living quarters by steel bars. There is one 4-in. by 4-ft. window. Rudolph's is over his bed, looking out on the prison yard. "Through the slit window one can see the sky, but other than this and the few small birds that roost on the prison roof, there are no signs of the natural world."

[HeeBGBz]

12. Boo F-ing Hoo

What did you expect? The Waldorf Ass-toria?

[Jamastiene]

34. That's what I was thinking.

I mean, he blinded one woman and killed a father who was just doing his job. What did he expect? Exactly.

[Rockstone]

17. Is that what he was going to let happen to Richard Jewel?

fine if it was someone else paying for his crimes, huh?

[piedmont]

35. It's what WE as a society, were going to let happen to Mr. Jewel.

Innocent people get convicted all the time. Prison should be about protecting society and rehabilitating the individual (even if they will never be released), not taking sadistic pleasure in harming and humiliating prisoners.

[Twillig]

200. Exactly.

:thumbsup:

[madokie]

31. I would imagine that would be the lesser of the two

[Eric J in MN]

36. I don't belive in keeping people in solitary for years...

...even a murderer.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. Well, He's Right. It Does Make You Go Crazy. I've Been In Similar Circumstance.

Difference is, he deserves the pain whereas I didn't. (and no, I'm not declaring the typical 'I'm innocent' crap every prisoner pulls. In my case, it was a complete betrayal of justice. But not only too long to get into detail, but I also have no regrets. Whether deserved or not, it helped change my life for the better and see things in a whole different light anyway, so it is what it is.)

On edit: I do have to clarify. He's in a worse situation than I was, since he's in solitary confinement. Though I was in 23/1 (more like a half) lockdown, I still had 2 other inmates in my cell. Course, that overcrowding was almost torturous in and of itself, but solitary I'm sure would be a worse alternative.

[lectrobyte]

38. Ah, the irony, Rudolph complaining about misery and pain.

What about the misery and pain of being struck by shrapnel from a bomb? I guess what goes around truly does come around.

[uppityperson]

40. well, the choice was death. tfb

too fucking bad

[MonkeyFunk]

42. So that's what our justice system

has become?

A choice between death and torture?

Maybe we should try to find other options.

[uppityperson]

46. Ideas?

[MonkeyFunk]

48. oh

perhaps psychiatric and psychological treatment, education, providing a sense of purpose, a sense of hope.

You know, crazy liberal things.

[uppityperson]

50. Problem I can see is reality. Money and time are limited, rather see them go to

victims than criminals of some types. OK, am showing that I am not a perfect librul. Oh well. I still would rather see victims get more treatment, perpetrators less.

[MonkeyFunk]

51. but it's

not a competition between victims and perpetrators. That's a false dilemma.

We should treat perpetrators humanely because a) it's the moral thing to do, b) because many of them WILL be reintroduced to society, and it's in our interest to make sure they're not insane and c)it's more cost-efficient.

[uppityperson]

57. It is NOT a competition except for resources.

Likewise, there is a competition for medical/health care resources. But that is for another thread. Will these perpetrators such as this guy be reintroduced to society?

I agree that more needs to be done for those that will. Definitely agree on that. Sort of curing the problem before releasing them. Prevention, after the fact but before reoccurance, as it were.

[MonkeyFunk]

59. but it's not a competition

for the resource-pool in question.

The victims of crime are not under the 24/7 care of the Government.

[uppityperson]

61. your tax dollars at work.

schools or war? mental health assistance for victims or perpetrators?

[MonkeyFunk]

62. I'm not sure I understand

I have no objection to some government-funded remuneration for victims of crimes. But victims also have other public resources available to them, as well as private insurance. They do not become wards of the state.

Anyway, it's still morally wrong to purposely drive prisoners insane, nor is it cost-effective in the long run.

[uppityperson]

68. Indeed it is morally wrong.

Some victims have private insurance. Many do not. They can walk around outside without a guard, but do not fool yourself that private citizens, victims, have private insurance. They can become wards of the state, tax funded housing food healthcare, having access and using "public resources" as you put it which are tax funded as prisons are.

I agree that it is morally wrong to torture, but where is the dividing line between responsibility, consequences, torture?

[MonkeyFunk]

70. the consequences

are losing your freedom for a long time. Removal from society for the protection of society. Revenge and retribution should not be factors.

This is why it's difficult to argue about what the best criminal justice system should be - it immediately gets turned around into a victims'-rights debate.

I propose that the two debates are entirely different.

[uppityperson]

72. Should we fund the war? But schools need money also.

They are separate but all inter twined also. Premies or transplants? Lots of these things that are intertwined. With the added bonus of why should someone who acted badly get preferential resources over victims, it mixes in it does.

[MonkeyFunk]

73. OK...

I've tried to be clear about my points. I'm unsuccessful. Sorry to waste our time.

[uppityperson]

75. not a waste of time, we just see some the same, some different

that is what things are about, discussing, presenting what we feel and why. Then going off to think. Thanks for the talk.

[MonkeyFunk]

77. I didn't fail

because I didn't change your mind. I failed because I was unable to make you see what my point was.

thank you for the talk, too.

[uppityperson]

78. prisoners have rights.

victims have rights. They should not be confused because it gets really emotionally confusing then. Prisoners should not be tortured. I agree, was this your point?

[MonkeyFunk]

93. The points

are not "interwined" or "confusing".

They have nothing to do with one another.

If you think treating prisoners with a small modicum of humanity hurts victims, then go ahead. But you're wrong.

Nothing about the way we treat prisoners has any effect on victims of crime.

[uppityperson]

127. Are you saying that resources are not limited? That there are enough

resources from enough different sources for both groups? I don't see that. I do not think that treating prisoners humanely hurts victims, not at all. I think that our tax dollars go towards both groups and the allocation is difficult.

You are right, there are 2 different issues here. Humane treatment of prisoners and allocation of resources. Basic humaneness should be a given, though it is not. That seems to be your point and I am in agreement. Allocation of resources between these 2 groups and EVERYONE else that needs them is the problem. That is my point.

[Jamastiene]

264. You still haven't pointed out what about solitary confinement

is "torture" or "revenge." I don't get to throw a couple of punches per week at Eric Rudolph. His victims do not either. Neither do the guards or anyone else. It's not like anyone is beating him. Are you proposing that we put a law in place to send a steady stream of hookers in to pleasure him or what? It sounds like you think right wing bombers should be treated like kings for their crimes. I wonder if you'd still feel he should be treated so kindly if it had been someone you knew or your family or you that he maimed for life or killed.

[Jamastiene]

65. Prisoners get full health care.

The rest of us have to scrounge around for enough money for a simple yearly physical. Screw us, I guess that's that our government is telling us.

[uppityperson]

76. indeed.

full health care for being in prison vs scrounging out here. Resources are limited and I do not agree on the allocation of them at times. Not Queen of the Universe yet though.

[MonkeyFunk]

94. When you give your liberty and

indeed, your whole body, to the Government, then you'll have the right to complain.

Until then, try to be a compassionate human being.

There was a time in MY lifetime where prison reform was a smart idea. Now it's considered liberal crap because the right AND un-thinking people on the left decided that they could get votes by fucking over convicts.

So now, both parties are in a war over who hates criminals worse. It's bullshit. It's stupid. It's unproductive. It doesn't help our society - it's just a sick maneuver to get votes.

I have no illusions that it's going to change - we're stuck in this sick, sadistic cycle. But I will continue to point out how wrong it is.

[uppityperson]

246. Do prisoners "give" to the gvt, or was it taken as a consequence of their crime?

The only ones I can see that "give your liberty and indeed, your whole body, to the Government" are the military. Are you telling me to enlist or shut up about the gvt?

Prison reform is necessary. Political reform is necessary. Allocating money to the more needful than those making $$ off the war machine is necessary.

[mondo joe]

115. You're channeling the RW "Club Gitmo" talking points.

"But they are served rice pilaf! They can't be tortured!"

[Jamastiene]

265. Well, I guess you'd feel differently had you been

in the gay bar he bombed. Maybe no, maybe you would have liked it, huh? Do you really propose that we set him free and "rehabilitate" him while he steadily plans more bomb attacks against gay bars, prenatal/abortion clinics, and the Olympics again? Maybe, we should all go visit him and sing Kumbaya until he finishes going crazy. That would be way worse punishment for him. Hearing this typical caring more for the criminals than the victims shit is worse than solitary confinement could ever be for him. Trust me. He would hate it if some liberal group went in there and talked about how much they loved him. He'd be miserable. Is that torture too? Or should we mourn the loss of his freedom and his right to bear bombs?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

172. Prisoners get free food, free orange jumpsuits, and a free room, too

Such a deal! Where do I sign up? :sarcasm:

[Katzenjammer]

99. One of the charges often made against liberals

is that liberals care more about the perp than about the victim. I think it's often a fair beef.

I'm opposed to the dp. I used not to be, but as I've grown older, my views have changed in complicated ways. So now I'm opposed to the dp. But perhaps only because it's irreversible and applied in a racist, classist way. If those factors were completely corrected, I think I might be okay with it. Or maybe not.

So okay, instead of killing these malefactors, we lock them up. We spend more than the price of a university education on them, and we do it over and over again for perhaps many decades.

What do we do for the victims and their families? Nothing. A few states have meager "victim compensation" funds that provide some money, but the damage victims suffer is vast and lasting. We don't deal with that. We don't even want to know about it.

The bottom line is that we spend far more to warehouse the perp than we do restoring the life of the victim or their family. There's something deeply disgusting about that, to my mind.

So, awful as it might seem, I don't have a lot of problem with putting someone who has committed a vicious, ideological crime into permanent solitary. They got to keep their life, so what more do they want--a medal?

If in solitary they lose whatever ability they had to fool people into thinking they're not the psychopaths they are, exactly how big a loss is that anyway?

Maybe the rule should be that the perp gets nothing until the victims are truly made whole again?

[MonkeyFunk]

112. Again....

One issue has nothing to do with the other.

It's not a see-saw, where in order to raise up the perpetrator, we must lower the victim.

The fact is, victims are not wards of the state - the convicts are. We have both a moral obligation not to torture them, AND a rational society would do what's best for that society. Torturing inmates is not in the best interests of society.

[Katzenjammer]

118. Both treatments --of the victims and the perps-- are by our choice, aren't they?

It seems to me that makes them closely related: through us.

I'm sure you prioritise things in your life, so I won't ask whether you do. I will ask, though, why you don't put restoring the victim before taking care of the perp. I do.

[MonkeyFunk]

119. it's simple

victims aren't wards of the state, which represents ME.

[Katzenjammer]

122. I certainly can't object to that characterization. It's simple, for sure!

How nice for you, to be able to compartmentalize your responsibility as a citizen and human in a way that fits with your inclinations. Could you explain why the legal fiction of your guardianship is more important to you than the actual suffering of the victims?

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Katzenjammer]

124. I *did* read the thread, and the issues are *not* separate

If you want them to be separate, then you have to make a case for why. And implying I'm a freeper to try to intimidate me speaks poorly of you, because it should have been beneath you.

Here's the deal:

- the way we treat victims vs perps reflects our social priorities

- we spend the price of many university educations on each perp, while spending almost nothing on the victims, who are left to reassemble what remains of their lives as best they can.

- there is nothing wrong with putting the wellbeing of the perp on the list of things we should do.

- there appears to be something pathological about putting the wellbeing of the perp above the wellbeing of the victims. It is not unlike putting the wellbeing of the wealthy above that of the poor.

So, given that we (nominally at least) choose how to treat both perps and victims, and the cost comes out of our taxes in both cases, and the amount we allocate reflects our priorities---how are they separate?

[MonkeyFunk]

125. because it's not a zero-sum game

Nowhere in this entire discussion - or in the others currently going on - has anybody suggested taking resources from victims.

It's just a fallacious argument that a society can't be helpful to victims AND humane to prisoners simultaneously.

[Katzenjammer]

135. Who's saying "can't"? I'm saying "don't". We *don't* do it. And I am almost the only one even

mentioning it in this thread.

The bottom line is that we *don't* do it. And we don't even talk about it.

And the FACT that we don't do it, that we spend all our time obsessing over whether being isolated is comparable to being actively tortured, and whether a grandiose psychopath like Rudolf is happy, tends to confirm the perception, among people who are usually at the sharp end of whatever's happening, that liberals are fairly stupid "bleeding hearts" who wouldn't recognize reality if it shook them by the throat.

[MonkeyFunk]

137. I'm well aware

that many people in this thread think torturing convicts is acceptable. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

There's also a "perception" that the left loves gay marriage and abortion, so I suppose we should switch views on those issues, too? Cuz gosh, we'd hate to be perceived badly.

[Katzenjammer]

175. What's your value system?

There's also a "perception" that the left loves gay marriage and abortion, so I suppose we should switch views on those issues, too? Cuz gosh, we'd hate to be perceived badly.
We're talking about different groups of perceivers. The ones I'm talking about would be socialists if socialism hadn't been made a dirty word. They believe in people having food when hungry, a safe place to sleep when tired, healthcare when sick, all that jazz. They really believe in "from each...to each...". They also believe in live-and-let-live, so they keep their mouths shut about other people's personal choices and expect other people to do the same. They work every day of their lives for not much money, and they know damned well that there's something wrong with anyone who spends any time worrying about the perp when the victim is in need.

[uppityperson]

140. You CAN treat prisoners humanely. of course

And are you saying that the money available for prisoner's health care and for healthcare for us on the outside is enough for both? I AM NOT ARGUING WHAT YOU SAY I AM. Sorry for yelling but I am getting annoyed here.

Humane treatment of prisoners is NECESSARY! Affordable healthcare for us non-prisoners is NECESSARY! Decent education is NECESSARY! Our friggin tax dollars are being spent in an assinine occupation of a foreign country and are NOT AVAILABLE for health care, education, shelter, food, etc in enough quantities. These resources ARE limited and must be allocated, are allocated in ways I do NOT think are good. HOWEVER, this does NOT mean that we should treat prisoners inhumanely as we should NOT!

You stated above "When you give your liberty and indeed, your whole body, to the Government, then you'll have the right to complain." People are in prison, supposedly and hopefully and this is another big thing to work on, because they committed a crime. Yes, they deserve humane treatment, and they need to be "treated" somehow so when they are released our society will not suffer.

Did you realize that the other people who fit this characterization you state are the military?

NEITHER of them are treated well enough but I'll be damned if I will sit quietly while you continue to tell me that resources aren't limited for care for all and tell me that I advocate torture as I don't and these are 2 seperate things.

argh. Do you understand? Prison reform, humane basic treatment of prisoners leading to being able to have them NOT be societal negative when they get released, housing, food, health care, education, all these are needed and all are funded by our tax dollars which also go to the Occupation of Iraq.

[brentspeak]

165. That is the most stereotypically "liberal" sentiment possible

It's the kind of thing an idiot like Rush Limbaugh would claim "liberals" would say on the topic of supermax prisons.

The people who are in these facilities are in there for a good reason: they have killed other human beings, and are so dangerous that they have to be in a place where escape is impossible. There are decent, law-abiding citizens all over the United States who can't afford needed mental health treatment, and yet you advocate wasting those resources on murderers who won't be utilizing it?

[MonkeyFunk]

174. Thanks for the award

does it come with a trophy?

Are you aware that not everybody in isolated lockdown is a murderer or father-raper? And do you think society benefits when we release these people we've driven insane?

Oh, and fuck Rush Limbaugh. The amount of "give-a-shit" I have for his opinions can't be measured using today's technology.

[Jamastiene]

271. Yes, we should place an ad and start looking

for some hookers for him right now without delay. Let's get that good ol' boy some sensory soaked entertainment and lavish him with praise for bombing liberals.

[VOX]

41. Great argument against the death penalty -- prison sucks daily, every day, for a lifetime.

As long as the guilty party remains incarcerated and doesn't get sprung, life imprisonment is, IMO, a much more severe punishment than death -- since it has to be lived through day after day after day.

And *this* POS has the nerve to gripe????? It's **supposed** to be a PUNISHMENT!!! Enjoy your stay.

[immoderate]

43. Probably lots of suicides.

--IMM

[MonkeyFunk]

44. Nope

nothing to kill yourself with, and 24-hour video surveillance.

[Jamastiene]

266. I know what you mean.

Remember when Timothy McVeigh pretty much summoned the government and told them he was ready to die? Remember when he smirked all the way through it to the last moment of his life? He deserved to live and pay for his crimes. He sure didn't deserve to have complete control of his fate like that. That was definitely worse for the victims because he was smirking until the end for what he did. Eric Rudolph does not deserve the same control and the same smug sense of satisfaction.

[oasis]

49. He should ask Ann Coulter to bring him a cake with a file in it. (eom)

[Bluebear]

52. Life not easy for a Christian terrorist in the US either, eh?

:nopity:

[Jamastiene]

270. I know what you mean.

I'm still trying to understand where the torture line really begins. I'm not sure how some peope would propose we "rehabilitate him." He's a rabid avid right wing hate monger who tried to kill US. I wish people would stop to think about that.

[mitchum]

53. Supermax prisons are far more cruel than the death penalty...

they are designed to drive one mad
Sick

[Warren DeMontague]

55. Yeah! This inhumane treatment is only acceptable for gays, abortion doctors, blasphemers, and women

who take the birth control pill.. right?

Or were they supposed to be burned at the stake. I forget.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. He's a terrorist. Why did he even get a trial? He should be in Gitmo, right?

How come no one is waterboarding him to find out which of his "accomplices" helped him hide out? Shouldn't we be using all means necessary to track down the rest of his TERROR NETWORK?

I mean, isn't the Administration's whole argument that terrorism is a "special threat", so bad, evil, Merika-hating terrorists don't deserve "rights" and "coddling"?

[Jamastiene]

67. Hell, they had a preacher on the local news

who publicly offered to put him up and give him political asylum in the church while he was on the run in the mountains of NC. Those people over that way even wrote a song about Rudolph being a hero to them. It was called "Run Rudolph Run" and it was about how they hoped he'd stay free and bomb some more. That's the way that bunch thinks. I say let him suffer. The only arguments I have seen against Supermax so far has been solitary confinement. Hell, that was my punishment as a kid, but then I liked it so they changed it. To each their own, but solitary confinement is NOT cruel and unusual. Hell, it's heaven for some of us. :rofl:

[MonkeyFunk]

71. Hrmmm

"I say let him suffer."


Then surely you support this administration's policies in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib - as long as the "terrorists" are convicted, right?

Our government - which is OUR government, indeed is us - should not be responsible for the suffering of anyone.

[kiahzero]

64. The hypocrisy evident in this thread is disgusting.

Torture is apparently acceptable to many so long as it's done in domestic prisons.

:crazy:

[MonkeyFunk]

69. Isn't it amazing?

If we'd sent him to Guantanamo, DUers would be holding rallies for more humane treatment.

[Katzenjammer]

100. Big difference: the people in Gitmo are innocent of any crime

Unless resisting invasion is a crime! And as we know, most of them didn't even do that...they are completely innocent.

Actively torturing innocent people is a far cry from letting a violent psychopath torture himself.

[LTR]

109. Many in GITMO are not criminals

And have had no access to a trial. They fought in a war, and in war, people choose one side or another.

If these people committed heinous acts like domestic terrorism or overly vicious or cruel acts toward Americans, that's something else. They do, however, deserve to be treated humanely until they get a fair trial. If they are indeed convicted as terrorists, they belong in a place like Supermax.

[mondo joe]

111. Torture does not depend on a verdict. If an act is torture, it's still torture

whether you are guilty or simply suspected.

[Katzenjammer]

121. I think my point was to refute charges that people are "soft on crime" when they

object to the concentration camp at Guantanamo but not to the sterile conditions in which Rudolf is being held. People can legitimately object to actively torturing an innocent person, while (equally legitimately, as far as I'm concerned) being less moved by the plight of someone guilty of psychopathically criminal behavior who's merely being isolated and ignored.

Do you really think Rudolf would want to be shipped to Gitmo and treated as innocent people are treated there? I'd bet money against it. He objects to his treatment in Colorado because he feels a sense of entitlement so vast and all-encompassing that not only should he not be in prison at all, he should get a medal, the thanks of the nation, and probably a pension.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

74. I'm pretty disgusted, too

I wonder how long the smug smart-asses who are trying to "out-hate" one another would feel if they were sitting in a tiny cell with no natural light, no outside sounds, nothing to do all day, and the knowledge that they were under constant video surveillance.

Since this kind of imprisonment has actually been used on political prisoners in the U.S., don't be so sure that you could never end up there.

[XOKCowboy]

81. Torture? Did I miss something??

He's in prison. One of the cleanest, most tightly run prisons in America. This isn't a chain gang.

Now if you consider a SuperMax prison torture, what's your idea of imprisonment?

[kiahzero]

84. Yes, you did miss something. (n/t)

[XOKCowboy]

86. So what's your solution for isolating violent psychopaths in our society?

Tell me what I missed.

[mondo joe]

160. Prisons that don't torture prisoners isolate violent psychopaths every day.

That will do.

[mondo joe]

113. Clenliness = humane? You're channeling RW talking points about "Club Gitmo".

Near constant isolation and deprivation is torture.

[Jamastiene]

269. Wow, you can just copy and paste every reply in this thread

now, can't you? You just keep saying the same thing as before; "You're channeling RW talking points about "Club Gitmo"." Maybe, I should come up with a catchy phrase like that and copy and paste all my replies... :crazy:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

167. I wish all the "cowboys" and others who are so gleeful about

Rudolf being in a SuperMax, cleanliness and all, could have a little experiential learning in the form of trying for themselves for a week or so.

I don't care what the inmate has done. The type of isolation that a SuperMax puts people into is psychological torture, and everyone from the government to prison officials to prisoners knows it. Everyone except the macho-macho men and vindictive women on this thread seems to realize it.

If you don't believe me, take all the furniture out of your bedroom except a bare mattress and a portable commode, put blankets over all the windows, keep the lights on 24 hours and day, and don't leave for a week except one hour a day walking back and forth in a dog run that has the sides blocked off so you can't see outside. No TV, no music, no books, no nothing to occupy your mind. Oh, and tell your family that they can't talk to you when bringing your meals and taking away the tray and that they have to blindfold you when taking you to the dog run.

Now imagine that you have to live this way for the rest of your life.

Once we say it's okay to treat SOME people like this, it's easy to extend it to others. In fact, as I've stated before, it political prisoners have already been subjected to this treatment

You hate Eric Rudolph. Fine. But just realize that judging from this thread, your hatred isn't hurting him at all (he doesn't know about it), but it's turning some of you into vindictive armchair vigilantes who act as if you could easily be persuaded to join a lynch mob, and it's NOT PRETTY.

[Jamastiene]

268. Rehabilitation.

As if someone like Eric Rudolph or Timothy McVeigh could ever be rehabilitated. They are die hard right wing hate mongers, bombers and right wing henchmen, yet so many liberals are jumping to his defense simply because he is imprisoned. I'm still waiting for someone to explain how simple imprisonment is torture. I don't get it. If Eric Rudolph had his way, every single one of us on DU would be bombed to death with no reserve and no compassion. Why waste compassion on someone like him?

[cali]

101. and it's done to

people that DUers hate, such as clinic bombers. This thread disgusts the hell out of me. Supermax prisons are absolutely torture, and all those folks who lamented over Padilla's treatment and rejoice over Rudolph's are full of shit. They support torture selectively- just like bushco.

[NashVegas]

117. Oh Yeah

he mocks the prosecutors, judge and victims of his 1998 bombing of the New Woman All Women clinic, which killed off-duty policeman Robert Sanderson and maimed nurse Emily Lyons.

Rudolph described Derzis as "brassy, worldly, the kind of woman who had not only been around the block a few times but was probably dragged behind a truck the entire way."

He's a peach, that Eric Rudolph.

[NashVegas]

114. This Is Where Eric Rudolph Would Like to Put Abortion Doctors

Prison, or the morgue.

Oh, there's hypocrisy, all right. He's getting a taste of what he would inflict upon others.

Works for me.

He has no remorse for his victims, and they're glad he doesn't like his accommodations.

"It gives me a great deal of pride to think he's never coming out of there," said Diane Derzis, who runs the Birmingham family planning clinic Rudolph bombed in 1998. "He should never see daylight again. He's a monster."

Rudolph is serving life without parole.

At his sentencing hearings in Birmingham and Atlanta last summer, Rudolph read a statement saying he bombed two abortion clinics because "abortion is murder, and because it is murder I believe deadly force is needed to stop it."

[mondo joe]

126. Is he now our ethical baseline?

Or do we have our own?

[XOKCowboy]

79. Perhaps he could take up the Islamic religion...

SuperMax in Florence holds a lot of other terrorists. They aren't complaining. Perhaps his God has abandoned him. Poor liddle fella!

[MonkeyFunk]

80. what does

his religion have to do with it?

[XOKCowboy]

82. Uhhh Abortion clinic bomber? I'm sure they were just random targets

that had nothing to do with his fundamentalist religion. Or am I wrong?

[MonkeyFunk]

83. no

it's no secret he's a christian fundamentalist nutcase.

But why would his being an Islamic fundamentalist change the nature of the discussion?

[XOKCowboy]

85. Until you tell me where and how we jail violent psychopaths..

to your satisfaction then this is not a discussion.

[MonkeyFunk]

87. You could possibly,

oh, I dunno, read the thread? I've posted lots of thoughts.

Now, tell me what Christianity vs. Islam has to do with this thread.

[XOKCowboy]

88. Oh you mean...

"perhaps psychiatric and psychological treatment, education, providing a sense of purpose, a sense of hope."

Perhaps you'd like to tell me how you'd get poor Eric into therapy and keep him there.

As to my post, I was just saying that since Ramzi Yousef, Zacarias Moussaoui, Omar Abdel-Rahman and Wadih el-Hage are all also in SuperMax Florence and not complaining then maybe THIS radical fundamentalist terrorist chose the wrong religion. Get it?

[MonkeyFunk]

92. No, I don't get it...

Are you saying it's OK to torture Islamic people but not 'Americans'?

If torture is wrong, it's wrong. If you want to hate this administration for torturing Moslems, you have to hate them for torturing Christians.

The people who think it's OK to torture people they don't like are no better than Bush.


It's not OK to torture anybody. Sadly, a lot of people here think it is - as long as you're American.

edit:


And why on Earth do you think the Moslems you mention aren't "complaining"?

[AtomicKitten]

89. I think he arrived at prison that way.

Maybe they can crazy him normal.

[Philosoraptor]

96. Gosh, I wish I could END his suffering, if you take my meaning

[opihimoimoi]

97. But then his example to others would end...better to leave him there

and be the warning to others not to stray off the norm////to be a good human and not fuck around with fanatical crap like he did.

This anti this and anti that based on fantasy/delusion/etc is what got him into troubles...he is not alone...others are out there listening to Pat Robertson/Foulwell/etc and becoming infected with hate. Such is our mixed society of good and bad...

Eric is a bad guy and must made to suffer the consequences of the shit he did....fuck the dude...may he rot there for a very long time...the only good is the example he represents.

[Philosoraptor]

98. He requires biblical justice, but that's illegal

May he live a good, loooooong life in his box.

[opihimoimoi]

103. LOL....May he suffer while he is there...a better example perhaps?

[peekaloo]

102. Tough titty Nature Boy.

must be scary locked inside your own head most of the day. Reduced to terrorizing yourself.

Boo hoo.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

104. I suspect he's largely right.

Remember that not everyone in the same circumstances as him is even guilty - some of them will have been wrongfully convicted.

Prison *is* deliberately designed to inflict suffering. While I think a degree of that is justifiable, and indeed desirable - if people didn't want to avoid going to prison, it wouldn't do any good - I think it probably goes too far in America at present (and in America at present it goes less far than in the vast majority of other present and past societies).

[npincus]

105. right. Prison s for those OTHER people.

[MoonRiver]

106. Probably can't understand how God let this happen to his holier than thou ass.

After all, he was just killing for Jeeeesus. :crazy: is as :crazy: does, :crazy:

[Ganja Ninja]

108. He's getting better than he deserves.

They should have hung him.

[treestar]

116. Gee, that's too bad. And being a white man, he even had a

trial where his terrorist acts had to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, or at least the need for that trial allowed him to plead to avoid the death penalty. The privileges of an American citizen! If he were not one he could be detained and killed without making all those deals.

[Beetwasher]

120. "It is a closed-off world designed to isolate inmates from social and environmental stimuli"

Duh. Yeah, you've just defined "prison" you idiot. Can't do the time, don't do the crime. Dumbass.

[MonkeyFunk]

128. Really?

"Prison" is defined as isolation from social and environmental stimuli?

Hey, there's an opening for Sec-Def - you should apply.

[Beetwasher]

136. That's Part Of It

There's an opening in la la land, you should move there, where pixies hand out gum drops and prisoners who blow up abortion clinics enjoy all the social and environmental stimuli they can get their grubby hands on. :eyes:

[MonkeyFunk]

138. Then

please find me a dictionary definition - ANY dictionary definition - that defines "prison" that way.

Your silly strawman is laughable. Nobody in this thread has suggested pampering prisoners. We're advocating basic human decency, which seems beyond the grasp of many here.

[Beetwasher]

142. What's Beyond Your Grasp

Is that prison is meant to isolate. It's a closed off world. That's what prison is, Einstein. If someone doesn't understand that, then they're an idiot.

Human decency means keeping this scumbag away from other humans.

[MonkeyFunk]

144. Has anybody here

suggested releasing him, Tesla?

Removing people from society does NOT mean removing all social and sensory stimuli.

I'm still waiting for your link to a definition.

[Beetwasher]

147. Really, So They've Removed All Stimuli?

How is THAT possible? And of course, you take HIS word for it. :eyes:

Where is he? In Limbo?

[mondo joe]

150. Here's another O'Reilly argument you might consider.

After all, why re-invent the wheel?

From the June 17 broadcast of Westwood One's The Radio Factor with Bill O'Reilly:

O'REILLY: Well, I mean, you're telling the world, senator, that we're a repressive country because you don't like coerced interrogation. Now, the FBI report, for those of you whom missed it, centered around a detainee who was chained to the floor in the fetal position. You know what the fetal position is -- that's not an uncomfortable position. Most of us sleep in a fetal position. OK? So picture the fetal position, most of us sleep that way.

[Beetwasher]

155. So That's Rudolph He's Talking About?

:shrug:

Dumbest strawman ever.

[mondo joe]

157. Since you're into defending torture, you might as well go right to

O'Reilly's arguments.

They're no different.

[Beetwasher]

159. Riiiiigghhht!

:eyes:

Pathetic coming from someone defending an abortion clinic bomber.

[mondo joe]

162. More strawmen? Please cite any post here in which Rudolph was

defended. You can't, because he wasn't.

This is an issue of how we will treat prisoners.

[Beetwasher]

166. Umm, Einstein

You ARE defending Rudolph. He made statements about the prison, and you agree w/ him and ARE defending him. Now, you may not be defending him about his crimes, but you ARE defending him about his statements about his prison.

[mondo joe]

169. Incorrect - I never defended him once. And I didn't take his word, nor

did I ask you to.

Why do you keep lying?

I told you, Supermax abuses are documented. Start with HRW.

[Beetwasher]

177. LOL!

Right, you're not defending him, just agreeing w/ him in a thread about him. :rofl:

Next you'll ask me to define defending. :rofl:

[mondo joe]

179. You should accuse me of defending torrorists because I don't think

people in Gitmo should be tortured either.

You can't seem to see any difference between arguing that we shouldn't torture prisoners, and defending those prisoners.

[Beetwasher]

185. I Defend Terrorists

I would defend Rudolph too, if I thought he was being tortured, and I have no problems saying that.

[mondo joe]

186. Would arguing that NO PRISONERS SHOULD BE TORTURED

be contrued as a a defense of Eric Rudolph?

[Beetwasher]

189. Depends

From my POV, no, because I disagree that he's being tortured. From your POV, yes, because you AGREE that he's being tortured, so you ARE defending him and his position in a thread about him and his comments.

[mondo joe]

191. Let's see - you can take the O'Reilly line of reasoning, or you

can go with HRW and Amnesty Iuternational and the UN Human Rights Committee.

I'm good with those sources.

[Beetwasher]

199. And They've Said

Rudolph is being tortured? Really? And that all Supermax prisons are torture? ReallY?

[MonkeyFunk]

152. read the thread, Bohr

A tiny white room, no windows, opaque door, soundproofed. One shower a week. One hour to walk around in a dog-run by yourself.

[Beetwasher]

158. Cry Me A River

n/t

[MonkeyFunk]

164. You asked a question

I answered it.

"Cry me a river" indicates to me that you've reached the end of reason.

[Beetwasher]

168. No You Didn't

My question was how do they remove ALL stimuli. You didn't answer it because it's not possible to do.

The "end of reason"? LOL! That's a laugh coming from someone who thinks it's possible to remove all stimuli.

[MonkeyFunk]

178. You're right

they DO have the sound of their heads bashing against the wall.

I was mistaken.

[Beetwasher]

187. Obviously

You ARE mistaken. The guy was able to get his whining out so you could defend it, that's not complete isolation now, is it?

[MonkeyFunk]

196. He wrote letters

he didn't do a press conference.

So I guess the scritching of a felt-tipped pen on paper was another sensory stimulus he got to enjoy.

[Beetwasher]

198. So, Then He's NOT Deprived of ALL Stimuli?

We're making progress.

[MonkeyFunk]

201. yes we are

I admit that the use of the word "all" was incorrect.

However, your quibble says more about the strength of your argument than it does mine.

[Beetwasher]

203. No, Actually It Doesn't

It says you have to take what Rudolph is saying w/ a grain of salt. I mean, it's not like he might have an agenda or anything. :eyes:

[MonkeyFunk]

211. Actually

my argument isn't based on what Eric Rudolph says at all.

I don't give a gerbil's turd who the inmate in question is. I'm talking about the larger issue of how we treat prisoners in general.

I've studied enough about the issue, and there are plentiful links to sources here in this thread if you're interested in educating yourself, about the nature of our prisons.

I think they're shameful. I think Gitmo is shameful. I think Abu Ghraib was shameful.

I support basic human rights for all people. You're free to feel otherwise, but it's odd you'd do so on a Democratic discussion board. I could recommend some other sites where your views would be better-received, if you'd like.

[Beetwasher]

216. Umm, Too Bad This Is A Thread About Eric Rudolph

So, regardless of what you say now, your argument IS based on what he said, since that's what this thread is about.

[MonkeyFunk]

219. Now you're being silly

and this thread is getting too long to manage, so I'm going to wish a good day.

[Beetwasher]

224. Yes, I'm Silly Like That

Actually pointing out the topic of thread and how your comments are in that thread and therefore can be construed to be about the subject of said thread. How silly! :eyes:

[mondo joe]

145. Prison is meant to remove from the general population, Einstein,

not to keep prisoners in perpetual individual isolation.

[Beetwasher]

148. Oh, So Now He's in "Perpetual Individual Isolation", Huh?

Define it, Einstein. Oh, and I'll take his word for it too, cuz he's so reliable.

Pathetic.

[mondo joe]

151. How about Human Rights Watch? Or do you have a problem with them too?

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/supermax/Sprmx002.htm

[in_cog_ni_to]

182. Human decency is NOT doing THIS.

The attacks, which occurred between 1996 and 1998, killed two people and wounded more than 110 people.

Rudolph issued a rambling 11-page statement Wednesday after pleading guilty in Alabama and Georgia, declaring: "Abortion is murder. And when the regime in Washington legalized, sanctioned and legitimized this practice, they forfeited their legitimacy and moral authority to govern." (Read excerpts)

Two attacks involved women's clinics: one in the Atlanta, Georgia, suburb of Sandy Springs in January 1997; the other in Birmingham, Alabama in January 1998.

Six people were wounded in the Sandy Springs blast.

Off-duty policeman Robert "Sandy Sanderson," 35, was killed, and 41-year-old nurse Emily Lyons lost an eye and suffered other injuries, in the Birmingham blast.

Rudolph said Wednesday that while he had "nothing personal" against those victims, he has no regrets or remorse.

Rudolph also bombed a lesbian nightclub in Atlanta in February 1997, an attack in which five people were wounded.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/04/13/eric.rudolph/index.html


I cannot believe there are people defending this sorry piece of crap. Does HE possess ANY Human decency? No. He does not. He sits where he deserves to sit....away from other HUMANS he could harm. He ranks right up there with Jeffrey Dahmer and John Gacy, IMCPO. I suppose Mr. Sandy Sanderson would enjoy some 'stimulation and human contact' right about now, don't you?:( Rudolph doesn't deserve compassion. He's the one who committed the crimes knowing full well what he was doing.

[MonkeyFunk]

183. No one's defending his actions

we're discussing how a civilized society treats its prisoners.

And to say that humans in government custody don't deserve compassion is what led us to Abu Ghraib.

[in_cog_ni_to]

206. Stop comparing Rudolph's prison to Abu Ghraib and Gitmo!

There is NO COMPARISON to be made. That's just ridiculous.

[mondo joe]

215. They are both abusive situations that employ psychological torture,

Nothing ridiculous about that.

[in_cog_ni_to]

223. Poor Eric. Maybe he should have thought about that before he went on his killing spree?

The man has it good in comparison to Abu Ghraib and Gitmo prisoners. He needs to toughen up! Was he this damn wimpy while he was blowing up abortion clinics all over the country? I wonder how Mr. Sanderson feels about poor little Eric's prison treatment? Prison isn't suppose to be FUN. It's suppose to be a painful lesson that you must abide by the laws of the land or suffer the consequences of your actions. Poor little Eric is just now figuring that one out, I guess.

[mondo joe]

225. Well just so we're clear that you're okay with prisons inflicting torture

on prisoners.

Thanks for making yourself known.

[in_cog_ni_to]

230. Right. If only poor little Eric was being tortured.

:eyes: He deserves what he's getting. I'm sure Mr. Sanderson would agree.

[mondo joe]

188. That has nothing to do with whether we should torture prisoners or not.

I say we should not torture prisoners.

Do you disagree?

[in_cog_ni_to]

204. He's not being tortured. Abu Ghraib prisoners are being tortured. Gitmo prisoners are being tortured

There is a difference. Is poor little Eric getting shock treatments? Dog bites? Feces spread all over him? Beaten bloody? Sleep deprivation? Are his kids being raped before his eyes? How about starvation, maybe? Is his Bible being flushed down the toilet? Please stop defending this abhorrent piece of crap.

Isolation and no stimulation because he's a danger to other human beings is hardly the same as what's going on at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo. He's no better than Dahmer and Gacy. He knew what he was doing was wrong and chose to do it anyway because of his 'Moral superiority' over the sinners of this country....LIBERALS.

I saw a man interviewed a few months ago on MSNBC and he had been in and out of prison 9 TIMES. Know why? He said he deliberately committed crimes to go back into prison because in prison he at least had a bed, food and health care. Don't tell me Rudolph is being tortured. You minimize what the prisoners at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo have had to endure.:( Eric Rudolph knew if he committed those crimes he would end up exactly where he is. His choice. He made that choice, not me.

[mondo joe]

209. Per the UN Human Rights Committee and Amnesty International

supermax facilities violate international standards for the humane treatment of prisoners and exceed what is necessary for security purposes.

Defend it if you like - but I'm not going to join you in defending torture.

[in_cog_ni_to]

217. poor little Eric isn't being tortured.

If you want to see torture, look at some Abu Ghraib pictures. Maybe that's what poor little Eric needs to see....Abu Ghraib pics. Maybe he'll realize he's got it pretty damn good in comparison and stop his whining.

[mondo joe]

221. Actually, if his description is accurate and consistent with AI's findings,

he is being tortured.

You think Abu Ghraib is the be all and end all of torture?

[in_cog_ni_to]

229. Rudolph is exactly where he deserves to be. He made the choice to go on his little rampage

trying to kill Liberals because they support abortion. He knew it was wrong. Did he think he would end up at Club Med? He should have thought about the repercussions of murder and bombings BEFORE he ended up where he is. He's not being tortured. I'll say it again...TORTURE IS WHAT IS GOING ON AT GITMO AND ABU GHRAIB. Sitting in a cell for days at a time, not having a book to read (oh, BOO HOO) and not having anyone to talk to...is NOT torture...it's punishment for his killing spree.

[mondo joe]

231. There are many forms of torture. If you're okay with

psychological torture, fine.

I'm not.

[novalib]

233. You Don't Believe in Punishment!

You think that criminals should not be punished.

[mondo joe]

235. Please don't say false things. I do believe in punishment.

I do beileve in imprisonment.

I do not believe in torture.

[in_cog_ni_to]

238. I have to leave you to stick up for poor little Eric because I have to take my son to the doctor

which will cost a bloody fortune and unlike poor little Eric Rudolph, we have to pay for our medical care and health insurance. This will be probably be a $200 day at the doctors office/lab tests. When was the last time poor little 'tortured' Eric had to pay a freakin' dime for health care?

So, you enjoy yourself defending his right to a 'Club Med' lifestyle for the atrocities he committed. You should be proud. You sound like you are. I have to take my son to the doctor.

Peace.

[mondo joe]

242. Why don't you just call it "Club Gitmo" - that's the RW talking point.

No defense of Eric Rudolph here - NO PRISONER SHOULD BE TORTURED.

[in_cog_ni_to]

256. I never said you were defending Rudolph. I said you were defending

his right to have a "Club Med" lifestyle while in prison....which is what you ARE doing. Prison isn't meant to be fun, warm and cozy. You're suppose to be miserable while you're there...otherwise, the prisons would be even more over crowded than they already are with everyone wanting to go there! It's not suppose to be FUN.

I'd also appreciate it if you would stop insinuating that I'm a freeper because I don't agree with you on this issue. I've probably been a Democrat longer than you've been alive. OK? You believe he should have a nice comfortable life in prison and I don't. We will have to agree to disagree because I will never change my mind, nor will you.

Peace.

[mondo joe]

259. Really? Please cite the post in which I said he should have a "club med lifestyle

in prison".

Please cite the post in which I said prison should be warm, fun or cozy or even comfortable.

Better yet, why don't you just stop making shit up?

[in_cog_ni_to]

260. Why don't YOU tell me just exactly how poor little murderer Eric Rudolph should be

treated in prison. You've been defending/supporting his remarks throughout this thread. You believe what HE says. If you don't want him treated like a prisoner, please enlighten me on how he should be treated....if not a 'Club Med' atmosphere? He's not being beaten bloody, he hasn't had feces rubbed all over him, no dog bites, no waterboarding, none of his children have been raped in front of him. He's in isolation because he's a dangerous, dangerous man. How exactly should Mr. Rudolph be spending his final days? You're the one accepting what he says as fact, not me.

He hates you, you know. He HATES Liberals. He would kill you in a heartbeat if he could....if you support a woman's CHOICE to have an abortion, that is. So, you tell me how this maniac should be treated in prison. He doesn't deserve to NOT BE isolated or to have contact with other people. He's DANGEROUS. That's why he's in prison. He doesn't deserve one moment of happiness while he's there. He's suppose to be unhappy and miserable. Remember, THIS is the alternative to the DP. Now he gets to think about what a miserable piece of crap he is and the lives he's ruined. Prison = MISERY.

OK...tell me how he should get to suffer..'YOUR way.'

[mondo joe]

261. I think all prisoners should be maintained in a safe and secure environment.

I think they need to have access to social activity and some exercise and mental stimulation. Isolation and deprivation may be required to keep prisoners compliant, but those should not be used in excess of what is necessary.

That's not how I think Rudolph should spend his days - that is how I think all prisoners should be maintained.

So Eric Rudolph hates me - because I'm liberal, because I'm absolutely pro choice, and because I'm gay.

His hate has nothing to do with my values or ethics, both of which inform my opinion about imprisonment

He should be imprisoned for life and deprived of freedom. There is no need for special forms of ongoing torture in addition.

[Katzenjammer]

244. What if Rudolph didn't perceive it as torture? Would it still be torture?

How about if he perceives imprisonment as ipso-facto torture? Would it be torture?

What if UNHRC and AI didn't classify it as torture? Would it still be torture?

What, when you get right down to it, is torture?

We know some things qualify as torture no matter what (waterboarding, etc). Probably there are a few thousand people in the world who'd find that kind of experience orgasmic rather than horrible, but they're pretty aberrant. Everyone else would be distressed beyond measure. So we can say that stuff is torture. But where do we draw the line? Is something torture any time the person experiences it as torture? Or only when an international body says so? Some other standard?

[mondo joe]

245. "We know some things qualify as torture no matter what"

Really?

How do we know waterboarding is torture?

I'm not suggesting it isn't -- but how do we know it?

[Katzenjammer]

249. Good question. I'm not sure how to answer.

I suppose because it simulates death by drowning. I don't know whether there's anyone who could passively accept that. I've certainly never heard of anyone, but that might be a limitation in my experience/reading/etc.

[mondo joe]

131. Since when does that define prison? O'Reilly, is that you?

[Beetwasher]

139. Amazing

Amazingly pathetic that all you can do is insult people who you don't agree with.

Eric Rudolph, is that you? I thought you weren't getting any environmental stimuli? :eyes:

Don't you have an abortion clinic to blow up or something? :eyes:

[mondo joe]

141. Again, why do you think that's the definition of prison?

Are you saying if a convict isn't kept in near total isolation it's not prison?

[Beetwasher]

143. What I'm Saying Is

Is that prison is meant to isolate. It's a closed off world. That's what prison is. If you don't get it, that's your problem.

[mondo joe]

146. Incorrect. It's meant to isolate prisoners from the general population -

not to keep individual prisoners in perpetual individual isolation.

[Beetwasher]

153. "perpetual individual isolation."

Means you have no interaction w/ anyone ever. That doesn't seem to be the case now, does it? Obviously he has contact w/ SOME people. He got his stupid whine out so you could hear about it and defend him.

[mondo joe]

156. No one is defending him in the least. I happen to believe in the Constitution.

I happen to believe prisoners should not be tortured.

[Beetwasher]

161. And I Have Yet To See

Anyone show me how he is being tortured, just cuz HE says so.

Yeah, I'll take his word for it. :eyes:

[mondo joe]

163. No one asked you to take his word for it. The abusive nature of

Supermax prisons is documented.

[Beetwasher]

171. The Abusive Nature of ALL prisons

is documented. No one is saying it's right, or good, but Rudolph certainly deserves no special treatment and gets no sympathy from me.

[mondo joe]

176. Incorrect. Not all prisons are abusive.

And NO ONE HERE HAS SUGGESTED SPECIAL TREATMENT FOR RUDOLPH.

[Beetwasher]

190. Heh

Abuse happens in just about every prison (if not every). It's not the PRISONS that are abusive, it's the PEOPLE in them. There is a difference you know.

[mondo joe]

194. Incorrect. There are systematic abuses in some.

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/women/report7.html

Amnesty International believes that conditions in many US supermax facilities violate international standards for the humane treatment of prisoners and exceed what is necessary for security purposes. Both the UN Human Rights Committee and the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture have expressed concern about conditions in such facilities.

[Beetwasher]

197. "in some"

So, not in all, and not necessarily to Eric Rudolph. I rest my case. All we have is his word that he's being tortured.

He STILL gets no sympathy from me.

[mondo joe]

207. They have described systematic abuses that take place in supermax

prisons like his. If those things are happening to him, it's torture.

Defend it all you like.

[Beetwasher]

210. "If those things are happening to him, it's torture."

"if". 'Nuff said.

"If" you're gullible enough to take Rudolph's word on anything, well that's your problem.

Meanwhile, still no sympathy.

[mondo joe]

214. It has nothing to do with taking his word.

He's described abuses that are consistent with the findings of the above sources. That's enough to merit consideration.

[Beetwasher]

222. LOL!

"He's described abuses that are consistent with the findings of the above sources."

Uh huh. Not taking his word, but, umm, his description merits consideration. Ok, whatever.

[novalib]

228. You See That Little Violin in the Original Post?

Do you see that little violin in the Original Post??

That is Eric Rudolph playing you like a fiddle.

[mondo joe]

234. I'm willing to stand with Amnesty International, HRW and the UN

on this.

Thank you.

[novalib]

149. EXACTLY RIGHT!

Prison is NOT a stay in some nice hotel with friendly people who attend to your every desire!!

As I recall, Rudolph NEVER ONCE expressed the SLIGHTEST REMORSE for what he did!!

And now, I am supposed to feel pity for someone who is SERVING TIME because he tried to kill lots of people and never expressed the slightest acknowledgement that what he did was wrong????!!!!

WTF???!!!

He needs to be broken - to UNDERSTAND that what HE did was WRONG!!

Instead, he is STILL saying that "EVERYONE ELSE" is wrong -- because he fails to see the connection between his own CRIMINAL ACTIONS and his current STATE OF AFFAIRS!

RUDOLPH IS NO DIFFERENT FROM PEOPLE LIKE BUSH -- THE ONLY WAY such people can EVER become AWARE of the CRIMINALITY of their own actions is to be IMPRISONED under VERY TOUGH CONDITIONS!!!!!

[mondo joe]

154. Put away the strawman. NO ONE has suggested prison should be

like a stay in some nice hotel.

NO ONE.

[novalib]

170. Oh, PLEASE!

Oh, please!

Do you read every post with such pains-taking literalism???!!!!!

Or are you simply trying to set a little strawman of your own???!!!

OF COURSE I know that no one is suggesting that prisons should be like staying in a nice hotel!!!!

[mondo joe]

173. If you know better, don't use such a silly argument to defend torture.

And don't blame me if you don't mean what you write.

[novalib]

180. ReRead My ENTIRE Post

Re-read my ENTIRE post, then get back to me.

If you wish to address my ARGUMENT, rather than a device I used in making the argument, fine.

And please do spare me that "don't blame me if you don't mean what you write" nonsense!

[mondo joe]

181. Nothing in your post justifies torture of prisoners.

Prisoners should not be tortured.

[novalib]

193. I NEVER SAID THAT IT DID!!!!!!

For someone who is so quick to read another person's post quite literally, and then to launch into a little diatribe against another person for the EXACT words in a post, you are AWFULLY QUICK to launch into a little snit about something that I NEVER SAID!!!

OF COURSE, nothing in my post justifies the torture of prisoners!!!

I never intended to justify the torture of prisoners!!!!

I think I said that prisons should be places where CRIMINALS who REFUSE to EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE the criminal nature of THEIR OWN ACTIONS are made to UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE CRIMINALS!

I'm sure you'd agree to that.

Or perhaps you would not.

[mondo joe]

195. What does that have to do with excesses of Supermax prisons?

Amnesty International believes that conditions in many US supermax facilities violate international standards for the humane treatment of prisoners and exceed what is necessary for security purposes. Both the UN Human Rights Committee and the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture have expressed concern about conditions in such facilities.

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/women/report7.html

[novalib]

202. What in the WORLD Are YOU Talking About????!!!!!!!

Eric Rudoplh moans and groans about how he is being treated.

THAT is the subject under discussion on THIS thread.

That is what my posts on this thread have been about.

Can you PLEASE stick to the subject here, and NOT bring in extraneous and tangetial topics???!!!!

[mondo joe]

205. Amnesty International, and the UN Human Rights Committee have

expressed concerns about the conditions in Supermax prisons - which is where Rudolph is.

What he has described is consistent with their findings of inhumane treatment of prisoners.

That's torture.

[novalib]

208. Oh, PLEASE!

An unremorseful Criminal of the worst sort complains about how he is being treated (and thereby further proves his lack of remorse for what HE DID), and you think that he is describing torture??

Please.

[mondo joe]

212. Whether the actionstaken by the prison are torture or not have nothing

to do with his remorse or guilt.

If it's torture, it's torture, regardless of his guilt or remorse.

If you want to defend torture, keep right on doing it.

[novalib]

218. "Defending Torture"???!!! WTF???!!!

NO ONE HERE IS DEFENDING TORTURE!!!!!!!

I CERTAINLY AM NOT DEFENDING TORTURE!!!

And YOU KNOW IT!!!

You began this subthread by accusing me of using a STRAWMAN argument.

It is now YOU who have resorted to a strawman argument by EVEN SUGGESTING that anyone here is DEFENDING TORTURE!!!!

I rather suppose that in the fantasy world that you inhabit there are no criminals -- only "misunderstood" people who sometimes do "inappropriate" things.

[mondo joe]

220. Of course you are. The excesses of Supermax prisons are torture.

If you want to defend their systems, go ahead.

If you think prisoners should be treated humanely, say that instead.

[novalib]

226. PLEASE!!!

Give it a rest, already.

Please point out -- precisely and in detail -- where I have said that I support the "excesses" of Supermax prisons.

I haven't.

I think all prisoners should be treated humanely.

Happy?

Here's a challenge for you:

If YOU think that CRIMINALS should be PUNISHED for their CRIMINAL behavior, say THAT instead.

[mondo joe]

232. Simple question: Do you support treatment such as Eric Rudolph describes?

Yes or no?

I'm happy to answer your question: Yes, I think criminals should be punished for their crimes, in a secure and humane fashion.

[novalib]

236. Simple Answer

I think criminals should be punished for their crimes, in a secure and humane fashion.

I trust that responds to your question.

"In a 'secure and humane fashion'".

[mondo joe]

237. Clarification please:

Do you think systems in Supermax prisons are humane?

[novalib]

252. Take This Clarification

You want clarification??!!

Here. How's This????!!!

I think criminals should be punished for their crimes, in a secure and humane fashion.

I support whatever systems Supermax prisons use to punish criminals, to the extent that those systems are secure and humane.

Are there any systems in Supermax prisons that you consider humane?

[mondo joe]

253. Are there systems in Guantanamo that you consider humane?

Just wondering.

[novalib]

255. I'm Sure There Are.

You ask an open-ended question like that, and I'll give you an answer.

I'm pretty sure the prisoners at Guantanamo are fed.

So there must be a "Kitchen/Food Distribution System".

I would consider the feeding of prisoners at Guantanamo, and the system that supports it, to be humane.

Do you NOT consider the feeding of prisoners at Guantanamo to be humane? Do YOU think that particular system is inhumane?

[mondo joe]

258. It was as open ended as yours.

Given the stance of Amnesty International, HRW and the UN committee, my overall impression of supermax prisons is that they are systematically inhumane.

Other questions?

[Jamastiene]

267. Yep.

Some people act as though we should all form a group hug around him and make him feel better even though he bombed people with political views much like the majority of us here. He was our enemy and he tried to kill us. He's in prison and rightly so. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why sending criminals to prison is torture. First, the death penalty is wrong for criminals. Now, prison is torture too. What next? Reward them and lift them up while we all adore them and idolize them for trying to fucking kill us? I don't get the idea that even prison is considered torture. It's like a "I'm holier than thou with my compassion for criminals, fuck the victims" parade in this thread at this point.

[novalib]

130. PERFECT PLACE FOR WAR CRIMINALS!!!

After Bush/Cheney/Rice leave office (through IMPEACHMENT and CONVICTION), perhaps we could send them to the same Prison as the one where Rudolph is serving???

[Ilsa]

132. Hey Eric, Fuck off and die, you bastard. nt

[MonkeyFunk]

134. hard to argue

with that kind of logic.

[Taverner]

192. HAHAHAHAHAHA

See! This is yet another reason I'm against the DP.

Life in Prison makes you atone for your transgressions.

[in_cog_ni_to]

213. EXACTLY! I wonder if he sees the error of his ways YET? He didn't at his trial when he gave his

statement. He had NO REMORSE for what he did. He's a real piece of work.

[Hippo_Tron]

227. I've said this in the other thread, it's to the benefit of everyone that there is SOME socialization

How about if once a day or hell even once a week they brought the inmates into group therapy for an hour or two. If security deems it necessary they can chain them to their seats as far as I'm concerned. I'd just think that inmates who are somewhat socially stimulated would at the bare minimum be much easier for the guards to manage.

I'm not saying that Rudolph doesn't desreve what he gets but I'm not all that interested in the primary function of our justice system being to enact suffering on inmates.

[Katzenjammer]

243. But who would facilitate? Bring in some timeserver-careerist to go thru the motions?

Or fee someone top-notch to really try and make a difference?

[Hippo_Tron]

247. Honestly I could care less

I just think that some socialization would make life easier on the guards and the prisoners.

[Katzenjammer]

250. Okay, but I'm just asking. If the decision were within your gift, what would you choose?

Since you want actual change, would you fee someone really good and make it an intensive program?

[Odin2005]

241. Rudolph can ROT IN HIS CELL all I care.

He deserves all the "misery and pain" he's getting. I don't have mercy for murderous Christofascist terrorists.

[nam78_two]

248. Substitute Islamofascist in there and make it Gitmo

and that would be a perfect Freeper response :shrug:

I don't think those are the best standards to adopt. We can do better :-/

[mondo joe]

254. I really hate it when DU looks like a miror-universe version of FR.

I really do.

[nam78_two]

257. Very true.nt

[chaska]

251. I don't agree with the way our prison system is run....

We should be better than the inmates in our prisona. Prisons should be cruely-free.

[Orsino]

262. He's wrong.

Prisons are designed to make money, and to make it in a place where We The People don't want to look.

The misery is incidental, though it gives the more sadistic among us a thrill.

[jus_the_facts]

263. Local and parish/county jails are sometimes MUCH WORSE.....

...my bf spent almost a year(ll months) in a HELLHOLE called the Madison Parish Jail in Tallulah, Louisiana without being sentenced...without getting to go outside or breath fresh air for ALMOST A YEAR...he eventually escaped then brought back but to another parish jail...which was a TAD more humane...but believe me there are worse conditions in smaller *institutions* :(