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XOKCowboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:07 AM
Original message
Markos on Impeachment - I agree
I found this on AmericaBlog and I thank them for pointing it out. I'd overlooked it on DailyKos.

We have one year to make our case for 2008 to the American people. We need to show not just that we deserve to hold on the Congress, but that we should be given the White House as well.

2008 won't work, since as an election year, all meaningful legislative work will grind to a halt and the press will be focused on the horse race (as will we). So 2007 is it.

We can spend 2007 either pushing impeachment (which isn't as popular as Zogby claims, see Bowers' piece), or we can use it educating the American people about what a Democratic government would look like -- passing meaningful legislation that would improve their lives like the minimum wage, health care reform, ethics reform, stem cell research funding, policies that help families and the middle class.

Impeachment does none of that.


I want those bastards to pay also but what we really need is a new president in 2008. What's more important?

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/12/7/133953/102

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stonecoldsober Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's not either/or is it?
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XOKCowboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. He makes a good point...
Once impeachment proceedings start the media (and us and everyone else) will be focused on that alone. So it really is a question of either/or. Do we show America that we deserve the White House or that we're just out for revenge?
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. It's not either/or. And it's not revenge. It's law and order and justice.
It's an important argument, I agree, but I'm not convinced.

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SaveOurDemocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Revenge?

How about we show the American people and the World that we stand for JUSTICE?

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XOKCowboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. I'm talking about the way it'll be portrayed...
You know that will be the focus of the RW noise machine and will be parotted by the MSM. Remember we're talking about people that voted in this fool TWICE.

Like Markos said. We've only got 2007 to show America we deserve the White House.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
22. Letting the RW fascists dictate what you do or support is a sure way
to lose. If losing is your goal, then your recommendations will work. Being guided by fear of what the RW noise machine might say is being a fool. You may not remember recent history, but the RW talkers don't need any facts at all to get loud and hateful. Appeasing them will not work.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. We expect members of the armed services to risk life and limb to fulfill their oath. . .
. . .Why would we allow Members of Congress -- who take the same oath -- to invoke their fear of being called names to excuse their dereliction of duty?

Not only is it their sworn duty to act, the feared consequences are NOTHING compared to the consequences of failing to act.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/8
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
38. Fear of "bad names" trumps sworn duty? Tell that to the men and women serving in Iraq. . .
. . .Like members of the armed services, Members of Congress take an oath to "support and defend." No fear or rationalization -- not even fear of death -- can trump the duty demanded by that oath.

We take oaths in advance for a reason -- so that when the time comes, we JUST DO IT.

If we thought it would be a cake walk for Members of Congress to "support and defend," we would not demand they take an oath to do it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3007934&mesg_id=3008149">Members of the House have a duty to act. NOW.

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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
33. "show. . that we stand for JUSTICE?" -- Rescue the Constitution? Reassert our sovereignty?
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. It's Not Revenge. It's Saving Our Country From the Mad Cowboys
Edited on Fri Dec-08-06 12:48 AM by AndyTiedye
We push impeachment when we have the votes to remove them.
It will take quite a few Republican votes to do so. We all know how to count.
Until then, we investigate.
Hold hearings.
Issue subpoenas.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
36. Refusing to fight for principle until they "know" they can win is cowardice and hypocrisy. . .
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. We Bring Them Down The Way We Brought Nixon Down
Nixon was not removed from office by impeachment.
Nixon resigned when it was made clear that he WOULD be impeached and removed from office if he didn't.
Members of his own party brought him the bad news.

Removal from office takes votes from both parties.
Those votes WILL be there once the extent of the regime's crimes is made known to the public.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-09-06 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. The evidence is in plain sight -- It is time to introduce articles and make the case.
Edited on Sat Dec-09-06 03:11 PM by pat_k
"We know all we need to know"


This truth must be the mantra for any Member of Congress who doesn't want to become a War Criminal on January 4th (under Geneva, failing to stop war crimes is itself a war crime.)

I can't say it better than this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2882573&mesg_id=2886048
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-09-06 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
50. Upholding Constitutional rule of law is not revenge.
NT!

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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. Yes, it is, as far as the media is concerned. nt
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. I say let the hearings begin & let the people decide when they've heard the evidence.
If the people don't provide an outcry after having heard the evidence, then throw out the welcome mat for the next corrupt, secretive, tyranny-loving, unethical presidency.
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XOKCowboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Once the hearings start then all bets are off...
When all of the evidence of corruption comes out I'd hope that there's a unilateral call for impeachment. But to make that our focus from the outset is a mistake. Our focus needs to be on restoring the middle class, health care, voting reform, etc IMHO.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. As long as they have hearings, I'll be satisfied that justice will prevail.
Congress will be working 5 days a week starting in January, so there will be plenty of time for legislative duties as well as oversight duties.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Well damn straight let something begin! All this silence is doing is more killing!
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. Letting this president slide would be disastrous. The line has to be drawn with this nut.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. We owe the world some justice!
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
39. As long as the "hearings" are impeachment hearings to make the case for specific articles. . (edited
Edited on Fri Dec-08-06 04:00 PM by pat_k
. . .articles of impeachment: War Crimes committed in plain sight; Criminal surveillance program; Claims to "unitary" power that trashes the principle of consent -- the sole moral principle on which our Constitution is founded -- any one of these charges are MORE than enough.

Could even take them one at a time. If Senate fails to convict on one, send along the next . .

The faster, the simpler, the better.

They must be crystal clear that they know ALL they need to know.


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/13
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
9. I have to agree with Kos, because it's what I've been saying
all along. This does not mean that I don't think Bush doesn't deserve impeachment. But I want the 110th Congress to start investigating the plethora of wrongdoings done by this Administration. Those investigations could well lead to Bush's impeachment, but if we hang the word "impeachment" on the investigation(s), that is all the media will focus on. The right wing Scream Machine will ratchet up the noise level to the point where the facts could get drowned out. However, if the focus is -- at least initially -- on the individual sins and wrongdoings of the Administration, I think the Dems might get farther than they would if they went for impeachment right out of the gate.
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XOKCowboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Exactly. Plus time is very short.
With a wide open race for president (in both parties), 2008 will be too late. It'll be all campaign all the time. Next year is our year to shine.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. The "strategy" of doing nothing that the Reich Wing Noise Machine
might find objectionable is a sure way to lose. Stand up for what is right and decent. Call a monster by its name. Pretending that Chimpy and the PNAC gang have acted within the law and the Constitution is collaboration, at best. If the Dems won't tell the truth and stand for justice, they will lose, and they will deserve to lose.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote.
I'm not saying the Dems should run away or back off because the RW Noise Machine will crank up the volume. I know they will do that regardless. But picture this: instead of ONE topic (impeachment) for them to scream about, the Dems hit the Bushites from all sides. Again, this could still lead to impeachment, but it's harder to attack multiple issues than it is to attack just one. That can accomplish two things, the most important of which is to start bringing the Bush misdeeds out into the open. The other is, if the Noise Machine doesn't have just ONE topic to focus on, it dilutes their energy.

I DO agree with you that "if the Dems won't tell the truth and stand for justice, they will lose, and they will deserve to lose." Absolutely. People want change, people are tired of the lies and the cover ups and all the other crap the Bush Cabal has pulled these past 6 years. And they (and I among them) will demand that the Dems do what we put them in office to do -- uncover the BS, stop the BS, and turn this ship of state around as much as they are able to. And while it is up to them to do that, it is up to US to keep after them and make sure they do.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I think we do agree, just the limitation of speaking to one side of an issue
at a time. I see the impeachment argument as one side of a broad attack, not the only front, and from what you have said, we agree. I guess there is an either/or outlook that pits the fight to impeach "against" the fight to expose the evils done by these monsters. "Same struggle, same fight" as I see it.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Okay, I see what you are saying, and indeed, we do agree.
I was trying to make that point (obviously not as well as I would have liked to) that it's not an either/or situation, but an all-inclusive one. My reluctance in identifying impeachment right off the bat is, as I said, that the focus would all go there, rather than to looking under every nook and cranny to dig out the obscene misdeeds of the Bush Administration. If it leads to impeachment, I won't be sorry.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-09-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
47.  Can already hear the laughter: "Gee, for a minute there I thought they were going to DO SOMETHING!"
Edited on Sat Dec-09-06 07:07 PM by pat_k
Impeachment is the ONLY way to rescue the Constitution.

It is the ONLY meaningful and concrete action available to Members of Congress.

Unnecessary delay for unnecessary investigation = NOTHING to these people.

Empty rhetoric (and all rhetoric that is not backed by action is empty) = NOTHING to these people.

Complaints about Bush insanity, vetos, signing statements = NOTHING to these people

Even if impeachment were not a moral imperative, it would be the BEST way to "get the word out."

You think CNN is gonna give any of the laundry list of hearings and investigations they are planning more than 10 minutes a day?

But, IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS. The networks and cable news people will be falling all over each other to cover those.

Impeachment is not just the RIGHT thing to do; it is the WINNING thing to do.


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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
12. Reluctantly I agree
There's nothing more I'd like than to rub their noses in an ongoing embarrassing impeachment spectacle. But I doubt that most amurkins really favor that. On the other hand if investigations and hearings bring out the true nature of these assholes, most amurkins will demand impeachment. I agree it's smart to lay back and let events play out.
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queenbdem87 Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
14. Whats more important is preservation of the constitution....
This isn't just about partisan political gain for the Democrats. If we set a precedent and show that Americans are willing to put up with the illegalities of the Bush administration then you are telling future leaders that it's possible for them to do the same thing. Of course we should work on informing the people about what Democratic government will mean, but part of that is holding leaders accountable...and that means hearings and probably impeachment of Bush/Cheney. I frankly don't care what this does to Democratic control, its what's right for the country.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
16. Go for the whole enchilada
Good legislature AND impeachment on the side.

Who says Democrats can't multi-task?
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SmellsLikeDeanSpirit Donating Member (471 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
20. Go for it Dems. Let's not his actions slide off into the sunset of history without a fight.
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terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
23. Bush will Drive Impeachment
With Bush's selection our country got mixed up or enmeshed in George Bush's personal drama and in the dysfunctional Bush family's group drama.I think he his own personal reason for invading Iraq was one he stated early on---this is the guy who tried to kill my Dad.

His messianic leanings are just icing on the cake-extra fun. His torture proclivities were foreshadowed in the childhood games-like blowing up the frogs.

I've been looking for some early news stories which quoted his friends-one I remember from 2000 was a report that he was not a gracious loser and would insist on keeping playing tennis after losing a match until the other guy "lost." This public confrontation by the ISG labeling Bush as a loser means he will be even more determined to keep the war game going until they, and all of us lose.

If Bush has to lose he wants to lose big-the sky's the limit. This doesn't bode well for the rest of us.

He is not afraid of Impeachment. I think he is daring us to impeach. If he is impeached he will want to have a dramatic trial, like Saddam (but of couse not to be executed as he wants Saddam to be executed). He will also want to be convicted (this is the only way he can top Clinton).

Then he can retire to Texas or Paraquay, and joke about how he is the guy who fired Sammy Sousa and got impeached and convicted by the US Congress -what a cut up.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Hi terisan!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
25. He's dead-on correct. The argument goes far deeper than
that, too.

Forget the impeachment.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Duty or Complicity. Accuse or Exonerate. No rationalization for dereliction is. . .
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
28. Strongly disagree
Dems can walk and chew gum at the same time. We can go after Bush & Co for their numerous crimes and wrong doing and at the same time start repairing the damage they've done.

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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
29. Wrong both morally and politically. . .
Edited on Fri Dec-08-06 03:21 PM by pat_k
Support for impeachment in the face of 100% anti-impeachment propaganda like Marcos' and the rest of the Republican and Democratic establishment is INCREDIBLY strong. http://january6th.org/oct2006-newsweek-poll-impeach.html">Newsweek finds that 51% want impeachment to be a prioity in the new Congress, and only 44% said "should not impeach."

State of Denial

The stark realities of our national predicament -- a stolen election; a constitution in breach; a nation terrorized into war, captives tortured; massive power in the hands of war criminals-- are intolerable.

To date, the insider assumptions and strategies have effectively maintained their state of denial.

Occasionally it appears that they "get" the monumental scale of the bushcheney abuses and damage, but then the moment passes, and they go back to the pretense of "politics as usual."

Getting Real

The Election was about One Thing

That one thing is a Person.

Bush.

He wasn't on the ballot, but had he been, voters would have sent Bush Co. packing with a resounding vote of "No Confidence." At least that's what the real excerpts tell us:

Curtis Gans
Director
http://spa.american.edu/csae">Center for the Study of the American Electorate

On Politically Direct with David Bender
http://podcast.rbn.com/airam/airam/download/archive/2006/11/aapd111006.mp3">MP3 -- Interview start time approx 18:30

Bender: Joining me now is Curtis Gans. He is the Director of the Center for the Study of the American Electorate at American University and he has just released a new study analyzing the turnout this past Tuesday, and there's some interesting and there are some very, very interesting shifts in the turnout from previous elections. Welcome to Politically Direct . . .

Gans: It's very good to talk to you David.

Bender: Curtis, I'm holding the study in my hand right now, and clearly one of the things that all the exit polls showed was that Iraq played a part and your own work bears that out -- that Iraq helped propel some degree of an increase in turnout in this last election.

Gans: I think that it is not simply Iraq, although Iraq started Bush's downhill. But it is a gestalt around George Bush. it's being a pariah to other countries; it's people dying in what they increasing find is a vain fight; it's massive budgetary imbalances; it's a lack of compassionate conservatism; it's insecurity in jobs; it's the feeling that people have not been leveled with.

Bender: You've been doing this for almost 30 years; studying the American electorate. And there is probably no greater expert than you. It's just a real pleasure to have you on this program. . .


It is the nation's outrage at what Bush has done to our country that drove Democrats to victory on Nov. 7th.

As a general proposition, Americans want the ideal of a bipartisan Congress in which reasonable people on "both sides" work together to find reasonable solutions. But on Nov. 7th, the voice of the people declared that the most essential ingredient of that ideal -- reasonable people on "both sides" -- doesn't exist in Bush World.

When they rejected Bush, his administration, and his rubber stamp Congress as intolerably incompetent/corrupt/extreme they were not calling for "bipartisanship" with Bush at the helm.

Their message was loud and clear: "We want out of Bush-World!"

Apparently DC Dems didn't get the message that was delivered. If they had, they'd be implementing strategies that tap into the power of the outrage that drove the "wave," instead of doing their best to suppress it.

The "conventional wisdom" and exhortations we've heard since the election -- "impeachment is off limits," "it's about issues, issues, issues," "suppress anger," "don't overreach," etc. -- aren't new. We heard them last month. We heard them last year. We have been hearing similar admonitions to be "pragmatic" and "tactical" or to "keep our powder dry" for decades because such admonitions are grounded in assumptions and patterns of thought that have resisted change for decades.

For the sake our national soul, the best thing the drivers of Democratic strategy could do would be to Get Out of Town, reconnect with reality, and listen to people like Curtis Gans and others who are calling on them to take a step back from tactical politics and get clear about the principles they are committed to and the goals they are passionate about:

Gans: Traditionally, at least for the last 30 years, they have essentially been very tactical; very programmatic. I don't think either one of those works. I think they have to have an articulation of Central American principles and what that means within a progressive Party.

. . .You know, what is a Democratic definition of liberty? What is Democratic definition of the common welfare? Etc.

Bender: This is a moment, clearly -- the people voted for accountability, there's no question about that. And the opportunity to show that the Democratic Party is the Party of the Constitution, I think will be a very popular position across the board, particularly with Independents, and maybe even some Republicans who still love this Constitution.

Gans: The concept of the Constitution and the People's Government is something that can unite the Democratic Party in ways it hasn't been united since the late 1960's
. . .


It will always come back to the same bottom line. The Constitution is under attack; Congress is sworn to defend it, impeachment is the weapon be gave them.

With great crises come great opportunities. The failure of our Democratic leaders to stand up and fulfill their oath is deplorable, but what makes it so heartbreaking is that they are failing to seize an unprecedented opportunity. Impeachment is not just the right thing to, it is the winning thing to do.

Democratic leaders may never have a greater opportunity to engage and inspire the public

The biggest problem the Democratic Party has is the perception that Democrats are weak and unprincipled. It is hard to imagine a more effective way that Democrats can prove they are the party of strength and principle than to stand and fight for the Constitution.

What better time than now, when the principle of consent and the dictates of our Constitution are so desperately in need of a champion?

The Nov. 7th "wave" demonstrated the power of the public's growing dismay at the arrogant, irresponsible, and autocratic Bush Cheney White House. But the election could only give voters an indirect means of venting their anger, and as such, it did not fully tap into the anger or bring it into focus.

If they have the courage to stand up and make their case for impeachment, Democratic leaders would provide a voice and a focus that could energize voters across the political spectrum.

Countess elected bodies, good government groups, and citizens already recognize that the only way the nation can restore the institutions and Constitutional principles that Bush and Cheney have abused and subverted is through impeachment and removal. The numbers that are looking to Congress to act are growing.

Instead of being champions of the People and the Constitution, they choose the path of "responsible" and tactical appeasement. (As they wipe their foreheads in relief, believing they have dodged the Impeachment "bullet.")

The Democratic Party's failure to take up the fight for impeachment is symptomatic of a deeply ingrained pattern of self-defeating behavior. (We have seen the enemy, and http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2964929">it is us). Their failure stand up and fulfill their is deplorable, but what makes it so heartbreaking is that they are failing to seize an unprecedented opportunity.

Every day that Members of Congress do nothing they betray their oath and demonstrate contempt for the concerned citizens who are calling on them to act. They may find that the price of their contempt is high. The citizens who are taking up the fight for impeachment are a very active bunch who will not quietly accept the dismissive contempt of their elected officials for long.


http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2260/">Democratic Do's and Don't
In These Times
By Rep. Jan Schakowsky
July 2005

. . .do what your mother said—or at least what my mother said—stand up straight. What people like least about progressives and Democrats is that they think we’re squishy. They think Bush is tough, knows what he believes and is willing to fight for it. Americans like tough, even when they don’t entirely agree with the substance. Voters like tough; voters don’t like tentative.


Even if they can't shake their belief that impeachment is a loser for the party, their duty remains. We take oaths and make commitments to do hard and frightening things in advance so that when the time comes, we Just Do It, win or lose, however scary or difficult "It" may be.

And, if you are still not convinced, see

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/8">We're Doomed! Doomed I Tell You! (An Impeachment Intervention).
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
31. It's far more important that those bastards pay. Not for the sake of
democrats. For the sake of democracy.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-09-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
45. "Not for the sake of democrats. For the sake of democracy."
Edited on Sat Dec-09-06 05:28 PM by pat_k
Love it!

The truly TRAGIC thing is that the rewards of fighting for the principle of consent and "We the People" could be incredible. Impeachment is the BEST thing that the Party leadership could do for the Party (Repub or Dem -- whoever jumps on the impeachment bus first).

Watching the Democratic leadership run from this unprecedented opportunity as they scramble to escape their duty is unbearable -- like being forced to watch a friend play Russian roulette.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2879455&mesg_id=2882875






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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
32. They can and must do both....n/t
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
35. Investigations....and then Prosecution in '08....Force them to resign. That
Edited on Fri Dec-08-06 03:36 PM by KoKo01
will assure a Dem victory. The stench of the crimes will be worse than Nixon...far worse. But, we need thorough investigations and some of the Civil Suits wending their way through the Courts will help with this.

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
37. No, I disagree completely-and don't give a damn about polls or pols
I want to restore our Constitution and representative democracy so impeachment and prosecution-the BFEE have got to GO.

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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
41. I'm a recent YES IMPEACH! convert.
Edited on Fri Dec-08-06 08:02 PM by RiverStone
Shared my change of heart in a thread yesterday. BushCo's blatant disregard for common sense continues to result in tragic and needless death; human decency alone dictates that we must collectively stop the insanity ASAP. I do empathize with your desire to pass meaningful legislation, yet the war crimes are just to compelling to NOT take action on impeachment. I put saving lives over legislation (no matter how needed).

Thread link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2876665&mesg_id=2876665
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-09-06 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
43. Nuremberg trials showed world what NAZIs were all about.
Edited on Sat Dec-09-06 03:35 PM by Octafish
"I was just following orders."

We need the same thing. The American people are -- on the whole -- good, smart, intelligent people.

Given an honest election, they'll know how to vote in 2008.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-09-06 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
44. False Choices. What kind of government will you have without defending the Constitution?
These are Constitutional violations we're talking about here. Impeachment is not a choice, it is a duty.

For those who want to ignore all the evidence, research and documentation that has been going on for years to justify calls for "impeachment." it's time to get up to speed.

Enough with the false choices, semantic games as if using "the word impeachment" is somehow a gaff, the circular logic of "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" "investigations or impeachment," 'impeachment or Dem president in 2008?" Enough already.

What if IMPEACHING BUSHCO HELPS DEMOCRATS WIN THE WHITE HOUSE IN 2008? REMEMBER "ACCOUNTABILITY"?

We are suffering the consequences of not impeaching Reagan/Bush1 and prosecuting the band of merry pranksters that are still in charge.

Is Kos one of the post-Boomer spoiled cynics who think they can have their cake and eat it too? Allowing the Constitution to be eviscerated and go on pretending it is intact and supports us in the future is a FALLACY. American HUBRIS of the HIGHEST ORDER.


"We can spend 2007 either pushing impeachment (which isn't as popular as Zogby claims, see Bowers' piece), or we can use it educating the American people about what a Democratic government would look like -- passing meaningful legislation that would improve their lives like the minimum wage, health care reform, ethics reform, stem cell research funding, policies that help families and the middle class.
Impeachment does none of that."

The flaw in that logic is that IMPEACHMENT WILL "EDUCATE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT A DEMOCRATIC" (as in Democracy) "GOVERNMENT WOULD LOOK LIKE."

This is not a contest between parties. This is a fight for the Constitutional integrity of America itself. People who don't understand that need to quit intellectually diddling themselves and do some reading.

IF OUR REPRESENTATIVES IN CONGRESS ARE UNWILLING TO HOLD THIS ADMINISTRATION ACCOUNTABLE AND FULFILL THEIR SWORN DUTY TO PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION.............

You want an intellectual exercise? ASK YOURSELVES WHY?



:rant:





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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-09-06 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Hear, Hear! (nt)
Edited on Sat Dec-09-06 07:42 PM by pat_k
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-09-06 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
46. Investigate and go where the facts take us
if that leads to high crimes and misdemeanors, then it's our constitutional responsibility to take action and hold people accountable.

Simple as that. Anything else is crass and cowardly.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-09-06 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
49. What's more important than upholding the Constitution and rule of law?
Answer: not a fucking thing.

Rationalize it all you want, Kos, fact remains that you're supporting NOT following the Constitution.

The case already exists. This is politically-expedient cowardice.

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